Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Chief Hotsuin]

Pretty much ever since the game came out, l've been interested in swordsmen that don't wear green hats. l've jumped from Marth, to Dark Pit, Robin, Roy, Marth again. With pinch of MK, Ike, and Robin all at once somewhere along the way. Right now, l really like Corrin, especially with zir DL and DFS.

I know l've been very successful with Ike, Cloud, and Corrin on their own occasions (even with their nerfs), so l want to hear from someone else why l'd pick one of these over others and in what situations. Or, if there's some interesting character with an equivalent playstyles (ldk, Bowser Jr. or Mewtwo), that'd be interesting to know.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Ike is power, Corrin is defense, Cloud is speed. Congratulations, you have a trifecta.
This patch changed so much... and as much as I am now a boss at , I love the new buffs. I won't switch back, but if Gren becomes more popular after the buff, do you think he'd be a better choice? (BTW I consider Lucas about equal to Toon Link in 1.1.4 tier placement.)

 

[C0rvus]

What? Cloud is still top tier. He's likely even better off than before. Two of his worst MUs were nerfed and he is still 99% intact. Limit Cross Slash strictly outclassed Finishing Touch in 80% of situations, and it didn't get touched. He might even be the best character in the game right now. Don't spread misinformation, please.
Corrin definitely got nerfed harder. He can almost never convert off of paralysis anymore because of the nerfs to his ground speed, and one of his best kill moves got nerfed. He's still solid, I think he's bottom of high tier atm, but I'm just spitballing.

If anything, now is the best time to pick up Cloud. He's nuts and he's super easy. Everyone should have a pocket Cloud.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

How do you expect me to fit this thing in my pocket though????

Limit Cross Slash strictly outclassed Finishing Touch in 80% of situations

Right. l keep forgetting about that somehow. l loved setting up an opponent onto a platform and cover everything with FT. Oh well. Thanks for the input.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Cloud's nerf was to silence the "CLOUD's TOO OP" criers. What I care more about is Greninja's buff. He's possibly top tier now, as a bunch of aerials convert out of Dash Attack for really awesome combo mixups. I'm proud to say it is finally time for me to pick up Greninja again.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Cloud's nerf was to silence the "CLOUD's TOO OP" criers. What I care more about is Greninja's buff. He's possibly top tier now, as a bunch of aerials convert out of Dash Attack for really awesome combo mixups. I'm proud to say it is finally time for me to pick up Greninja again.

That sounds about right for Cloud.

Good for Greninjas, l have a friend who mains him. Always interested in him, but could never get used to the feel.

 

[Green Zelda]

I've been having a bit of a problem. Dr. Mario has always been my favorite character in smash (even moreso than toon link and sonic), and I've been having even more fun with him than usual. This has made me seriously consider picking him up as a main, and ZeRo putting him in high mid in his tier list has really been making me consider too. Finally, patch 1.1.5 has basically shown that the balancing team isn't done yet, and there's a high possibility of the doc getting buffed.The problem is, like ZeRo also said, there's almost no reason to use dr mario over mario. Is he worth using competitively?

EDIT: Just to clarify, my ultimate goal isn't to be the best and win a national/nationals. It's to be good enough to compete in a national. This might help decide whether I can use him or not. Thanks in advance!

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Mario is 3rd on my in-progress tier list. Dr. Mario has significant disadvantages... BUT he's easier to play yet harder to master. I can't play Mario because his reversal gimmicks don't flow for me... so I play Dr. instead. So there's your reason- If Mario's reversals and combos don't work for you, then the Dr. should work right.

 

[C0rvus]

Doc has niche use, like as a counterpick to Fox. He murders fast fallers with his combos. I don't think Mario does badly against Fox, though. If you like Mario, but are wanting some more power to him, try Doc, but know he is worse in almost every way.

I prefer the Doctor myself because of his up-b having strong kill power. Love killing with it. And his costumes are better imo.

 

[Green Zelda]

Wow, now I'm REALLY considering him. But is he viable? (NOT as a solo main, I mean as a character period)

 

[C0rvus]

People argue that he is viable, but as a counterpick character. There a bunch of matchups that he does well enough in, but he is too flawed to make it very far on his own.

 

[Green Zelda]

People argue that he is viable, but as a counterpick character. There a bunch of matchups that he does well enough in, but he is too flawed to make it very far on his own.

So, I can switch between him and toon link, but can't play him on his own?
Sounds fine!

 

[FIREMARIOVSSUPERSONIC6053]

I Try not to be Suck at because you already Know one of a Highly Characters in Smash Bros 4.

 

[Ezowolf]

Hey hello, new to Smashboards and i might have a weird question to ask.
I suffer from Erb's Palsy (basicly, my right hand isn't very responsive) and i've been trying to get into my local smash scene by going to tournaments and the like. And aside from working on not being nervous i think i need to pick up a character not limited by my physical limitations to improve. (I currently play Dedede, and love him, but he has a lot of problems in certain matchups, and i have a lot of trouble getting the f-tilt out all the time.)

Now my question is this: is there any decent Smash 4 character that doesn't rely on complicated and tiring inputs?
Examples of what i'd consider complicated inputs (which i won't be able to pull of well enough):
- Relying on long and/or complicated combo strings to do your best (so characters like or are out)
- Needing to use a lot of tilts (especially F-tilt doesn't work all time when i try to execute it, its a problem annoying me with and currently.)
- Require mashing/quick double tapping (Like recovering with 's Down B or instantly impaling the stage with )

-Needing to hold the stick in a diferent way quickly (like and 's recovery)
- and 's half-circle inputs


Is there any good character that doesn't require inputs like these?
I realise this question might be a little unorthodox, but thanks in advance!

 

[KniteBlargh]

Ezowolf This is a tough one, man. Sorry to hear about the difficulties with your hand. I'm thinking maybe someone with seemingly slower combos that kind of flow into each other to give your hands a break (as you pointed out, some of the best characters in this game require inputs to be used in rapid succession). Since you mention 's frustrating MUs, I'll be trying to consider those who are generally viewed as having better MU spreads (though take it with a grain of salt since the 1.1.5 patch just landed anyway).
/ Pretty slow ground/air speed; you often make your opponent come to you with your projectiles, but wall them out with projectiles at the same time which often leads to kind of slow-ish flowy combos. Keep in mind being able to catch your book/sword is optimal.
or Same as above in that some moves feel kind of slow, but they flow into one another very nicely (even more so in Ike's case, but Falco has decent combos from throws at early %s that don't require super fast inputs). Aren't as tilt dependent as . You don't have to rapid tap B for Falco's laser like you do with Fox, generally, you only use one or two shots at a time.
/ I would say a bit more input heavy (only certain instances for Donkey Kong) than the above. Villager has nice projectiles that wall out your opponent without requiring Z catching/dropping (though it's always good to at least have the ability to catch your opponent's projectiles), and the combos flow pretty well without the need for the more rapid inputs you'd expect of other characters. Donkey Kong's tilts are super helpful, but I would say not used quite as frequently as Dedede's f-tilt still, and mashing B does absolutely nothing for his recovery move, so you don't have to worry about that.
Further consideration: / They've been really low on the tier list, but you could try them since they've both received buffs. Their tilts are more of a requirement a lot of times, but still not used as much as Dedede's f-tilt (Dedede's f-tilt is just so good). Charizard has that heavy feel of Dedede, but his run (?) speed is fast, and (I haven't tested him since the patch, mind you) he's a little less input heavy than Dedede, I feel. Samus is kind of odd in that she's sort of floaty, so movement isn't too taxing once you get the hang of it, and once again, she has some great projectiles to slow down the pace to some degree.

Hope this helps out, and most of all, I hope you find someone who feels right in spite of your difficulty!

Edit: I really like The Legendary DJXYZ 's suggestions below as well!

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

I want to know a list of characters that do require high APM (actions per minute) gameplay and heavy button execution type of playstyle. I'm not a fan of these characters since they're not comfortable for me in the hands.

Also, I finally chose my characters. I only focus on or play one character in PM and two in Smash 4. Is this okay?

Also, I've talked to others in the PM boards. I don't know if some of you play PM, but I want to know if it's okay if I only one character, because I don't focus on PM as much as Smash 4. Plus, PM is considered to be a ''counterpick'' game to where it's actually recommended to have secondaries since every character is viable (almost) and you have to actually learn these MUs. I think that most people only focus on two for Smash games, but some people play more in PM due to the matchups...What should I do for PM? I really want to only play one character, because I'm not as comfortable as Smash 4 and I really want to focus on the latter game rather than PM even though I love PM.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Kulty Hello. I'm going out on a bit of a limb here since a patch just landed, but hopefully anyone who is able will set me straight if need be, or add in anyone I forgot!

So about your first question, I'm going to say definitely and in general, though Peach is usually considered to be the more difficult of the two with all of her float/turnip related shenanigans. is kind of a mix of the two in that he has to deal with his banana peel (actually more often than turnips), and makes use of a lot of B reversing to mix up his landing/approach, and so on and so forth.
There are a few fast characters who make use of sudden bursts of inputs, but not necessarily as constant as the above; I'd say these are , , , and .
and both have a plethora of item-related advanced techniques making them input heavy.
and have unique controls that ramp up the required inputs. Quarter-circle and half-circle movements on the control stick, and also since attacks are altered depending on how long one holds in the attack button, Ryu in particular needs very rapid button presses to use his weaker attacks (they're very important for him).

About PM, I have played it, but I'm no expert. Still, I see no reason why it wouldn't be alright for you to just stick with one character. There are good players who do that in every Smash game regardless of whether or not it's considered the right thing to do. If that's what feels right for you and will be the least taxing (in a bad way), I think you should stick with just one. Also consider the many Japanese players who have been known for playing one character in particular. For example, lots of Melee players play multiple characters, but then Amsa comes along and pretty much just sticks with Yoshi and knocks everyone over with what he can do that shouldn't have been possible in some minds. Just do what's comfortable and enjoyable for you.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

What should I do for PM? I really want to only play one character, because I'm not as comfortable as Smash 4 and I really want to focus on the latter game rather than PM even though I love PM.

l think you should find a playstyle or character you enjoy and start from there. l'd recommend Marth, Shiek, Mario or C.Falcon. Characters who have a decent neutral and are very fundamental. You could, of course, go with Fox or Falco if you want the high input rate that you want for Smash 4, though. Maybe Luigi, Marth/Roy, and Squirtle for wavedash stuff? l don't know PM too well.

l started my PM playing with Ganon. Not at all easy, but SO ****ING SATISFYING TO WIN WITH. Falco's really the worst to play Ganon against, though, and l find him to be super common, along with the other spacies. Shiek could help me learn how to edgeguard, which l hope to be able to transfer into Smash 4, so l'm using her more. Plus, her rushing down and combo-game is both relatively simple and really fun.

Still, I see no reason why it wouldn't be alright for you to just stick with one character.

Because, since there's so much balance, all that's left is the character's options and how they're stacked up against others' options. DDD on Shiek, for example, is much easier in PM than other games, but it's still tough because Shiek still has options that cut down on DDD's options and has a better neutral. DDD has a pretty good punish game, though, and can come onstage relatively easily with those jumps and Waddle-dashing, eliminating Shiek's option to edgeguard very optimally. Not every character has the perfect moveset, even in PM. A secondary is always useful, but not to start out with. You should learn what you need first.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

I Try not to be Suck at because you already Know one of a Highly Characters in Smash Bros 4.

Nope. The nerfs put here way lower. Go on. Play Sheik. Most people will be dropping her.

Hey hello, new to Smashboards and i might have a weird question to ask.
I suffer from Erb's Palsy (basicly, my right hand isn't very responsive) and i've been trying to get into my local smash scene by going to tournaments and the like. And aside from working on not being nervous i think i need to pick up a character not limited by my physical limitations to improve. (I currently play Dedede, and love him, but he has a lot of problems in certain matchups, and i have a lot of trouble getting the f-tilt out all the time.)
Now my question is this: is there any decent Smash 4 character that doesn't rely on complicated and tiring inputs?

is like this. He doesn't require a big amount of inputs. Neither does or . Try these few to start, and if you're able to step it up just a bit go for since PK Thunder only requires your left hand to input.

 

[Kulty]

KniteBlargh, Chief Hotsuin, thanks a lot! I really appreciate your response.

KniteBlargh, some technical characters are a lot more duable for me compared to if I was playing someone who's technical in either Melee or PM. Since Smash 4 requires less tech skill in general, it's a lot easier for me to actually some of the technical characters. I can somewhat play, because I kinda forced myself to play him because I love Mega Man so much. Same goes foreven though he's one of the most technical characters in the game (mainly because he's similar to my main). Another example, I can play someone like(my secondary) because I applied some of's ideas into my gameplan along with Monado. are not so bad for me as well... I can't play characters like. I was just thinking of picking maybeas potential characters in case if something's terrible going to happen for for the balance patches.

As for PM, it's just I'm scared of actually getting counterpicked hard if I only play one character. My number of characters that I focus is only 1 or 2 depending on how far I want to take the game seriously. People generally say from 1 to 3 characters, but I think that 3 is a bit too much and prevents you from improving as fast. Also, if I only play one character in PM, I might get bored by the game fast. It's all those things that I'm kinda worried about, because I might start to think that I like PM as much as Smash 4, but I feel more comfortable with Smash 4 in general. I don't know if I make sense, but what do you think?

Chief Hotsuin, I actually mainin PM and that's pretty much the only character that I'm focusing on right now. There are other characters that I play (my favorites being). Marth is pretty much the only character that I want to have from a main. Sure, like you said, he's not perfect and doesn't have all my requirements for a main, but he's the closest out of all these characters I've listed. The others are either they're not as fun as some other characters(), some are too technical for me(), some are too slow or poor movement options(), already mained since I don't want to main the same characters twice since I don't want to mess up my gameplay () or too awkward (). Falcon and Roy were close, but I feel that Falcon was too awkward to control and I tend to play Roy like Marth even though they're not supposed to play the same way. It's just those minor issues that really cripples me and I'm kinda annoyed by that. Plus, people from the PM boards say that Marth is solo-mainable in PM, so I wanted to actually solo-main him without relying on a secondary, since Smash 4 is my main focus.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

I actually mainin PM

l know, l can see your mains on the profile thing.

An official PM tier list came out some time ago, which you can find on the news somewhere back. On the top would be the more solo-viable characters, and you'd get more polarized characters as you went further down. lf you get bored of Marth, near the top of the list is where you should look next. And l know how you feel about Falcon. l don't understand how so many people play him. l guess it's since we're from a Smash 4 perspective, where he has noticeably different movement? Ganon has Dead Man's Drift and lke has the Quick Draw you can jump out of. Those are nice, non-committal options there. l've seen scary things from QD tech-chases.

 

[Niche]

Who is a character that has good projectiles but also has a decent close quarter game so they don't get completely shut down when the opponent gets in.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Who is a character that has good projectiles but also has a decent close quarter game so they don't get completely shut down when the opponent gets in.

Villager, sorta-kinda Mega Man, Rosalina, sorta-kinda Toon Link.

 

[Kulty]

l know, l can see your mains on the profile thing.

An official PM tier list came out some time ago, which you can find on the news somewhere back. On the top would be the more solo-viable characters, and you'd get more polarized characters as you went further down. lf you get bored of Marth, near the top of the list is where you should look next. And l know how you feel about Falcon. l don't understand how so many people play him. l guess it's since we're from a Smash 4 perspective, where he has noticeably different movement? Ganon has Dead Man's Drift and lke has the Quick Draw you can jump out of. Those are nice, non-committal options there. l've seen scary things from QD tech-chases.

I don't know. It's just really hard for me. I think I'm gonna solo mainin PM even though I don't think he's looking that great in the Project M metagame due to how many character can counter what made Marth so effective as a character in Melee. I think that he's still solo-viable, but it's much harder to the PM environment. I know some people would say ''Why don't I play Melee because Marth is so much overall?''. The reason is that I don't like the controls for Melee and I'm kinda sick and tired of that game. Especially when you see the same characters in national tournaments over and over and over again. For me, character variety in tournaments is important and always seeing something new. Maybe in the late future, PM and Smash 4 will turn like that, but I think I'm still going to play these games.

For Smash 4, gonna focus only onand choose 3 back-up characters in case if my characters get nerfed in the next balance patches (which I hope it doesn't happen since Mario and Shulk are the characters that I enjoy the most in Smash 4).

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Honestly don't worry about your character getting nerfed, there's really only a few characters that could still be fairly nerfed, and that's , , and , and the latter has a rather low chance. Not that I think any of them need nerfs, they all require serious skill to play as they are now.

 

[Kulty]

Honestly don't worry about your character getting nerfed, there's really only a few characters that could still be fairly nerfed, and that's , , and , and the latter has a rather low chance. Not that I think any of them need nerfs, they all require serious skill to play as they are now.

We never know. Sakurai can really throw us off with the nerfs and buffs, and the latest balance patch proves it. I don't think that Ryu and Sonic are going to get nerfed anytime soon. The two are perfectly fine as how they are right now. Also, even though Bayonetta and Rosalina do take a lot of skill, I do think that these characters are going to get nerfed again in the next patch, since I think that many people are going to start to pick them up since they're potentially the best characters in the game.

 

[Ezowolf]

@KniteBlargh @The Legendary DJXYZ Thanks a lot, you guys! Your advice really helps a lot. After you suggested him, and playing him in friendlies at a tournament and asking for advice on him today, i think i'll start learning . I never even considered him, but i really love the way he plays, and he seems very manageable input wise!

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

The reason is that I don't like the controls for Melee... ...you see the same characters in national tournaments over and over and over again. For me, character variety in tournaments is important and always seeing something new. Maybe in the late future, PM and Smash 4 will turn like that, but I think I'm still going to play these games.

l know the feel. Pretty much the same reason l don't do Melee. How do people live with Tap-Jump? At the same time, though, less match-ups means more of a chance to work on fundamentals and player v player match-ups, which could be why Melee is so loved.

That, and it's completely, 100% legal. l'm sure PM would eventually be just as popular, if not more so, if it weren't for how difficult it seems to get it. Oh well.

 

[Kulty]

l know the feel. Pretty much the same reason l don't do Melee. How do people live with Tap-Jump? At the same time, though, less match-ups means more of a chance to work on fundamentals and player v player match-ups, which could be why Melee is so loved.

That, and it's completely, 100% legal. l'm sure PM would eventually be just as popular, if not more so, if it weren't for how difficult it seems to get it. Oh well.

The reason I think that people don't play PM as much as Melee is probably because the game has a much higher learning curve due having advanced techniques from Melee and Brawl combined into one. Plus, having more characters that are viable (almost everyone) makes it that you have to learn a lot more matchups. Not just like around 10 like in Melee...I don't know for Smash 4, but I feel that you have to learn a lot more MUs in Smash 4 than in Melee.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

The reason I think that people don't play PM as much as Melee is probably because the game has a much higher learning curve due having advanced techniques from Melee and Brawl combined into one. Plus, having more characters that are viable (almost everyone) makes it that you have to learn a lot more matchups. Not just like around 10 like in Melee...I don't know for Smash 4, but I feel that you have to learn a lot more MUs in Smash 4 than in Melee.

lt's also because there are so few tournaments for PM compared to Melee or 4 and most people don't even know where to find a download for PM in the first place. l don't see what's so hard about B-reversing, Brawl's other techs are incredibly situational, and fundamentals alone can get you more than started. But there certainly are a ton of MUs to learn in PM. About a third of 4's characters aren't played, so people don't even bother with them. But you're pretty much right. At this point, l'm sure it's all about accessibility, and 4 takes the spotlight on there.

 

[stickmansam]

I am kinda new to the smash 4 scene and I already found my main pac but I am trying to find a secondary to deal with a few very abysmal match ups. So I need some advice on characters I could use to deal with Cloud who pac cannot camp because of limit and cannot approach because of his range. Cloud is my main problem as pac has almost nothing on him. The other more minor threat to pac man is mario because cape is the safest reflector. I need a more aggressive character or character with different options to fight Cloud and sometimes mario.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

... not even his nerfs can contain his influence. I'm scared for the masses who can't beat Cloud.
Cloud's main weakness is counterplay. A reflector, counter, or paralyzer is his greatest weakness. I'd say go with , because the tree acts like Pac's hydrant, but eats up many more Blade Beams. Also, forward/back air is a great approach option to get around his bulky sword.

(Edit- removed irrelevant info.)

 

[Whirlpool]

Hello all!

I cannot seem to settle on one character to main for more than a week because I have a problem. I like to win so I like to play top/high tier characters however, I am have a "hipster" attitude so I like to be unique and not to be just another Sonic player. I really need to find a underrated top/high tier character. I like playing a fast playstyle and I like combo oriented characters rather than defensive characters!

I am thankful for ANY feedback.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

The #1 best hipster character is ... I play him because nobody else does
Some other choices are , (or ), and (unless you're from my local scene where everyone has a pocket Shulk)

Wow, now the question is who really got 'd here

 

[LRodC]

Hello all!

I cannot seem to settle on one character to main for more than a week because I have a problem. I like to win so I like to play top/high tier characters however, I am have a "hipster" attitude so I like to be unique and not to be just another Sonic player. I really need to find a underrated top/high tier character. I like playing a fast playstyle and I like combo oriented characters rather than defensive characters!

I am thankful for ANY feedback.

Greninja can probably fit your criteria well. Mewtwo is also a good option to try out. He's very fast and has very damaging combos/strings. Other options include Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, Bayonetta, Mario, and Luigi. The latter 3 aren't fast, but they're combo heavy.

Honestly though, you shouldn't pay too much attention to the tier list first when choosing a character. Choose a character that suits you most comfortably and then go from there. The difference between high and mid tier doesn't matter if you're way more comfortable with the mid tier.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Hello all!

I cannot seem to settle on one character to main for more than a week because I have a problem. I like to win so I like to play top/high tier characters however, I am have a "hipster" attitude so I like to be unique and not to be just another Sonic player. I really need to find a underrated top/high tier character. I like playing a fast playstyle and I like combo oriented characters rather than defensive characters!

I am thankful for ANY feedback.

l'm sorry, l read "hipster" and "top-tier" in the same sentence and "no" and "not" were not in there. There is a severe problem with this post.

Sarcasm aside, Shiek's are probably going to be almost non-existent now. lf you don't mind having some trouble killing while onstage, you'll probably want her. Greninja would be a suitable alternative, but he has way less guaranteed stuff.

Mewtwo

l dunno about that. l guess so, with the huge amount of buffs, but it'd be very risky.

Pros: Nair and Fair link into themselves and much more, and are safe on shield. Disjointed jab, decent reach overall, overwhelming projectile with amazing option coverage, nair and upsmash also cover a lot of ledge get-up options, command grab, Teleport shenanigans, Confusion shenanigans. l've heard that he's incredible against floaties. A nice neutral game. You also have the very short-lasting advantage of using an unseen character.

Cons: Very floaty, lightweight, tail doesn't have disjoint, recovery doesn't have a hitbox, Disable's situational at best, quite a learning curve (for me at least, eh), very weak survivability, combo food.

Another Mewtwo would be nice to see, though. Go for it.

 

[Whirlpool]

Greninja can probably fit your criteria well. Mewtwo is also a good option to try out. He's very fast and has very damaging combos/strings. Other options include Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, Bayonetta, Mario, and Luigi. The latter 3 aren't fast, but they're combo heavy.

Honestly though, you shouldn't pay too much attention to the tier list first when choosing a character. Choose a character that suits you most comfortably and then go from there. The difference between high and mid tier doesn't matter if you're way more comfortable with the mid tier.

No joke, this made me pick up M2. He is awesome. I can perform really good mixups and combos with him and I feel like I finally feel settled with a character. I am beginning to beat some better Smash players that I was not able to compete with prior.

Thank you a lot!

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

No joke, this made me pick up M2. He is awesome. I can perform really good mixups and combos with him and I feel like I finally feel settled with a character. I am beginning to beat some better Smash players that I was not able to compete with prior.

Thank you a lot!

Wow, you just picked up Mewtwo? Just like that? Dem buffs putting in work.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

You'd think that would have the same effect on Greninja. Guess not.
So, here's some characters I'd like to see more mains of, because maybe they wouldn't be such low tiers if someone actually sat down and learned the full character- (last two are huge where I'm from)

 

[Whirlpool]

You'd think that would have the same effect on Greninja. Guess not.
So, here's some characters I'd like to see more mains of, because maybe they wouldn't be such low tiers if someone actually sat down and learned the full character- (last two are huge where I'm from)

I can't optimize my greninja play and I fee that my Mewtwo is stronger.

I would also like to see some mains, I can only think of like 2 Dr. Mario mains that I know besides Nairo's pocket Doc.