Official The Lean Mean Green Machine - Luigi Gameplay Discussion

[Yonder]

Rosalina's up air is the stupidest ***** move in the game.

Sorry, salty at dying at 50% to it thus losing semi finals.

At least I pulled off 3 jab to up bs...don't underestimate it. It's really, really good.

 

[Deleted member]

Rosalina's up air is the stupidest ***** move in the game.

Sorry, salty at dying at 50% to it thus losing semi finals.

At least I pulled off 3 jab to up bs...don't underestimate it. It's really, really good.

I know how you feel. Rosalina's up air is so damn ridiculous. >_>

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Rosalina's up air is the stupidest ***** move in the game.

Sorry, salty at dying at 50% to it thus losing semi finals.

At least I pulled off 3 jab to up bs...don't underestimate it. It's really, really good.

Man her down air is a pain too, it lasts so long. I always try to recover high.

Do you single or double jab before the upB?

 

[Aquatics]

Double jab

 

[Aquatics]

But single jab is easier. Mix it up and use the second jab to trap. Usually double jab to grab, then d-throw to up b for the KO. Depending on the damage that's given. If it's 70-80 after jab, up
B. If it's 95-100 depending on stage down b

 

[Yonder]

But single jab is easier. Mix it up and use the second jab to trap. Usually double jab to grab, then d-throw to up b for the KO. Depending on the damage that's given. If it's 70-80 after jab, up
B. If it's 95-100 depending on stage down b

I just used jab to up B the whole tourney and landed it with a 85% success rate, on better players than me too. Mixing it up does sound good though but there's the most hitstun after the 1st jab when they are closer. I didn't risk d throw to up B. Oh, and try to avoid double posting in the future please.

 

[FEFIZ]

Guys, about Luigi game play in Stages with this new patch 1.1.1.
We can't down throw to down b or Nair to kill, so, we need now AVOID stages like Haldberd and other stages like town and city with low celing? The stage list to Luigi change now?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Guys! Luigi still has kill confirms from a throw! The only thing is that they are much more dependent on weight, DI, rage, and/or stage position. I was able to true combo Fox with dthrow -> DJ Uair for a kill till about 130-ish (my notes are at home). Dthrow -> DJ Bair true combos till about 120-ish.

Again this was only tested on Fox who is a fast faller and also pretty light. No DI.

We can also get dthrow -> Nair -> DJ down B around 80% on fast fallers which is kind of cool. Dthrow -> down B now requires us to bait an airdodge in order to kill.

After playing around with this "new" Luigi, he may not be quite as good but he's actually more fun.

 

[FEFIZ]

Guys! Luigi still has kill confirms from a throw! The only thing is that they are much more dependent on weight, DI, rage, and/or stage position. I was able to true combo Fox with dthrow -> DJ Uair for a kill till about 130-ish (my notes are at home). Dthrow -> DJ Bair true combos till about 120-ish.

Again this was only tested on Fox who is a fast faller and also pretty light. No DI.

We can also get dthrow -> Nair -> DJ down B around 80% on fast fallers which is kind of cool. Dthrow -> down B now requires us to bait an airdodge in order to kill.

After playing around with this "new" Luigi, he may not be quite as good but he's actually more fun.

It's more fun, and yes, just because fox is fast faller, light and no DI. But what about my question up? What are now the best stages?

 

[Astro !=]

DI kills almost every d-throw kill setup I've seen. Up-b works sometimes but it's hard to real the DI, bair can work if they DI the hit wrong, and tornado will work if you grab on a platform. Every other setup we tested was escapable. We tried that soft hit nair into nado, and I think that if someone had god like mashing it might work.

 

[Underhill]

Here's the link http://smashboards.com/threads/luig...-discussing-battlefield.419018/#post-20257724 if you Luigi players want to give out info and data for Luigi stage discussion. Right now, we're discussing Battlefield.

 

[FEFIZ]

Here's the link http://smashboards.com/threads/luig...-discussing-battlefield.419018/#post-20257724 if you Luigi players want to give out info and data for Luigi stage discussion. Right now, we're discussing Battlefield.

Already tryed this thread.

 

[sims796]

If they can just fix his approach options, just a bit. Make him a tad faster, grant his Cyclone the ability to tear through certain projectiles, less lag on Green Missile, that sort of stuff.

 

[Underhill]

Rosalina's up air is the stupidest ***** move in the game.

Sorry, salty at dying at 50% to it thus losing semi finals.

At least I pulled off 3 jab to up bs...don't underestimate it. It's really, really good.

Well, its better than going up against Sheik. She's worse and I hate that d*** MU as Luigi which forces me to switch to Mario, Pikachu, Rosalina, or Kirby against her.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Well, its better than going up against Sheik. She's worse and I hate that d*** MU as Luigi which forces me to switch to Mario, Pikachu, Rosalina, or Kirby against her.

Rosalina is by far the stupidest fighter to fight against. I'd rather play Sheik than a half broken character that basically forces me to get a bad trade for an advantage.

 

[Underhill]

Rosalina is by far the stupidest fighter to fight against. I'd rather play Sheik than a half broken character that basically forces me to get a bad trade for an advantage.

I don't see how she's broken, but that's your opinion. I have no problems fighting her as Luigi.
Sheik is the dumbest fighter to fight against when I'm Luigi because of her stupid needles, bounching fish, and fairs.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I don't see how she's broken, but that's your opinion. I have no problems fighting her as Luigi.
Sheik is the dumbest fighter to fight against when I'm Luigi because of her stupid needles, bounching fish, and fairs.

Doesn't compare to the brokenness of Luma. Its mechanics are soooooo stupid.
*Only certain attacks knock it in hitstun
*Near invincible jab
*Makes punishing to easy
*Doesn't trade often
*You want grab combos? Well you can combo luma, but not Rosalina.

 

[Enjeru Karasu]

Doesn't compare to the brokenness of Luma. Its mechanics are soooooo stupid.
*Only certain attacks knock it in hitstun
*Near invincible jab
*Makes punishing to easy
*Doesn't trade often
*You want grab combos? Well you can combo luma, but not Rosalina.

Rose and Luma's mechanics make them the ice climbers of Smash 4. They may not be the absolute supreme top tier character, but their unique mechanics will ruin your day if you don't know how to deal with it. But for the record, Luma's killing power is ridiculous. Fortunately my character doesn't rely on grabs too much, but for anyone that does, Luma will be a problem, since if you don't react fast and throw right away, Luma will punish you for it. Luigi pretty much has to engage Rose in a way that's unfavorable to him. Early on you can forcefully knock off Luma, although that will usually result in a punish from Rose unless you space well enough. Rose's punishments aren't too bad early on without Luma. Or you can just stun the Luma for a bit. Or be really patient and try building up damage with knockback attacks. Yeah, this much up seems painful for Luigi. Not as impossible as Ness vs Rose, but a really big pain.

 

[Underhill]

Doesn't compare to the brokenness of Luma. Its mechanics are soooooo stupid.
*Only certain attacks knock it in hitstun
*Near invincible jab
*Makes punishing to easy
*Doesn't trade often
*You want grab combos? Well you can combo luma, but not Rosalina.

Ummm, nope. Still see Sheik as a dumb character compare to Rosalina. I just don't mind fighting her as Luigi since I know how to deal with her, but not up to Dabuz's level, though. If it gets too much for me in the MU, then I'll switch to Mario(mostly), Pikachu, or Kirby.

 

[hey_there]

Ummm, nope. Still see Sheik as a dumb character compare to Rosalina. I just don't mind fighting her as Luigi since I know how to deal with her, but not up to Dabuz's level, though. If it gets too much for me in the MU, then I'll switch to Mario(mostly), Pikachu, or Kirby.

Agreed. Sheik is a much worse match up for Luigi than Rosa. At least if you take out Luma it makes the fight much more manageable. It's not like you can 'KO' Sheik's fair and/or Bouncing Fish and have 12 seconds of respite.

I've been hypothesizing that Doc might actually do better against Rosalina than Mario/Luigi. His main problem against top tiers is his terrible mobility, but that isn't as much of an issue against Rosa since she's not that fast, it's just Luma extending her stage control which functions the same as being fast. Doc obviously plays similar to Mario/Luigi except he can insta-murder Luma with tornado/usmash, both relatively safe moves that toss Luma off stage, so it often feels like a 1v1 instead of a 2v1. Tornado/sheet/SJP/bair all murder Rosa off stage too, so that's cool.

I don't know of any results to back this up though, which is why I called it a hypothesis and not a fact.

 

[Aquatics]

luigi doesn't do too good against top tiers if you don't play the MU correctly

 

[Underhill]

Agreed. Sheik is a much worse match up for Luigi than Rosa. At least if you take out Luma it makes the fight much more manageable. It's not like you can 'KO' Sheik's fair and/or Bouncing Fish and have 12 seconds of respite.

I've been hypothesizing that Doc might actually do better against Rosalina than Mario/Luigi. His main problem against top tiers is his terrible mobility, but that isn't as much of an issue against Rosa since she's not that fast, it's just Luma extending her stage control which functions the same as being fast. Doc obviously plays similar to Mario/Luigi except he can insta-murder Luma with tornado/usmash, both relatively safe moves that toss Luma off stage, so it often feels like a 1v1 instead of a 2v1. Tornado/sheet/SJP/bair all murder Rosa off stage too, so that's cool.

I don't know of any results to back this up though, which is why I called it a hypothesis and not a fact.

Finally. Someone gets it XD Plus, not only with her f-airs and bouncing fish, but them d*** needles, too. The worse part is that she can even camp with them against Luigi if she wants.

While I think Dr Mario does better than Luigi, but slighty; He doesn't do better against Rosalina than Mario. I'm a Dr Mario main and Rosalina main, but I faced Rosalina players with him, though so I'll share some personal experience. While he does ko better, kill her early, benefits from rage more because of his weight, has the tornado and back throw to get split both of them up so I can get Luma off stage fast with a quick down-smash or forward smash, gimp her recovery with moves like you said, and combo her, he still has problems against her like Mario and Luigi. He's slow, has low range, a ok recovery, but gimpable one, and can also get combed, himself even with n-air and up-b as long as she don't read them. She can exploit those weaknesses so she can jiggle Doc pretty well with her up-airs because of his weight, falling speed, and doesn't have a escape move with enough range to get out of it. Also, with mix ups such as up-smash and grabs. If she reads you off-stage, then you're going to eat a down-air spike, Luma's hitbox, or even n-air so try to make it to the ledge safely. Plus, watch out for her ledge punishes down-smash, angled forward smash and if she ledge trump you, then she'll hit you with her b-air. She can give you trouble getting in because of her disjointed range and Luma due to his slow ground speed.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

So I looked at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKsPjGV3B5M&feature=youtu.be

I thought Luigi must have some setups like this and he does! He can even 0 to death characters with much precision.

Luigi can dthrow under the platform and force a tech situation at certain percents(varies with different characters). The character can't jump out or airdodge. If they attempt to then they'll miss the tech. From this situation, Luigi can short hop -> fireball to cause a reset (easy method). Or he can full hop -> fireball to reset into a grounded up B (hard method).

I tested this out last night but didn't test that long so I don't have all the data on who it works on at which percents. The fast-faller percent seems to in the 40-50% range so it will work on heavier characters (Bowser) a bit later and floatier characters (Jigglypuff) earlier. The short hop -> fireball reset is very easy to do. But Luigi doesn't land on the platform to set up a grounded up B. An aerial up B is possible but it might be more beneficial to try to different followups. I liked sour spot Nair -> Utilt -> Uair but you freestyle and see what followup is most beneficial.

Full hop -> fireball reset is much harder. Most times the Fireball would come out too late and pass over. The size of a character's hurtbox during the bounce definitely plays a role here. I was able to hit DK with it consistently but I could never hit Falcon. It may also require frame perfect execution doing the full hop after the dthrow and fireball immediately to get the reset.
BUT...if you can get the Full Hop -> fireball reset it sets up perfectly for the grounded up B on the platform which will most likely kill.

As far as the 0-death...From mid-left or mid-right of Battlefield, I was able to dthrow -> Usmash -> turnaround grab -> dthrow -> Fair 2x -> dthrow -> FH fireball reset -> Up B. I did this on Falco

Hope this adds to your gameplay. Sorry no video of this. Definitely share your follow ups or results.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Rosalina is by far the stupidest fighter to fight against. I'd rather play Sheik than a half broken character that basically forces me to get a bad trade for an advantage.

Ouch, you got salt in my eye.
So I've been fooling around with neutral air, and it seems like late neutral air to down air is a true combo. Somebody else test that.

 

[A Rangoon]

So hopefully this is the right thread, but I've been debating on maining Luigi, or at least picking him up. As such, I've been messing with sliding pivots with Luigi and I feel like it offers a lot in terms of options. Being able to approach with Bair then continue with a slide into D-throw regardless of the Bair hits or not (at low perecents) is nuts.It basically gives a walling option via aerials that can setup a throw, while giving you the option to pivot and jump again to adjust if they read it. You can also slide using U-tilt, D-Smash, and U-Smash which adds another level of depth to our approach.


Hopefully someone finds this useful, other question I had is how do you feel Weegee post nerf? As in, do you feel as if he needs to be played differently, or is still a pretty huge threat etc?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Luigi is more fun to play as imo though he's not as strong in the higher percents because he can't kill confirm from a Dthrow. Us Luigis have to be more crafty in the way we score kills now and Usmash and gimping are going to be much more important. I still believe he's a huge threat because he can still reliably combo till about 60-80% depending on the character. He still has everything else he had before just without the grab kill confirms and a slight nerf to aerial down B. He'll go down in the tier list a few places and people will drop him but he's still a strong threat

 

[hey_there]

Let's not forget best frame data to damage ratio in the game.

 

[Yonder]

Let's not forget best frame data to damage ratio in the game.

Basically, this is why I think Luigi will stay around the lower high tier. His projectile is also still accommodating to his play style of using them to make people shield and get grabs with his speedy grab. But he will still be outran by the faster moving characters, be gimped constantly [unless you're playing customs], and lacks ways to kill...well not Bowser Jr/Duck Hunt tier, but kind of eh. [Jab to up B is still amazing though on certain characters]. He needs a secondary to back him up [like he did before], now he just fights hard for that kill... But yeah, his frame data, damage and combo breaking nair are still there, I think he's better than the mid tiers.

 

[Underhill]

Since Battlefield is over, Final Destination is now ready to be discussed. http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-stage-discussion-currently-discussing-final-destination.419018/

Basically, this is why I think Luigi will stay around the lower high tier. His projectile is also still accommodating to his play style of using them to make people shield and get grabs with his speedy grab. But he will still be outran by the faster moving characters, be gimped constantly [unless you're playing customs], and lacks ways to kill...well not Bowser Jr/Duck Hunt tier, but kind of eh. [Jab to up B is still amazing though on certain characters]. He needs a secondary to back him up [like he did before], now he just fights hard for that kill... But yeah, his frame data, damage and combo breaking nair are still there, I think he's better than the mid tiers.

At least his MUs are still good against good fighters like ,,,,, and. , I think he has a even MU like Mario unless you prove me wrong, but I don't think it's bad or like or f***ing . , still even MU, even though I'm having trouble with that MU as Luigi and have to switch to Mario, Pikachu, or Rosalina to deal with him. and, I think that MU are the same or may had gotten worse alittle unless I'm wrong.

 

[hey_there]

ZSS is definitely a bad match up for Luigi. She can keep him out with nair/zair very reliably and juggles him very easily because of uair being huge and Luigi having a very slow fall speed. Here's how it looks at high level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFGMSozLdo (Poke was one of the only Luigi mains to make it to top 32 at TBH5 and V115 should be a familiar name if anyone played Brawl competitively)

At this point I think I'm going to be using Mario as my 'on-point'/main character and keeping Luigi as a secondary. I love playing Luigi so I'm not going to drop him and I really like his ability to secure a strong advantage against a lot of characters, but his bad match ups make it hard to choose him as the first character in a set in a big tournament. Definitely agreeing with Y Yonder that Luigi still beats out pretty much everyone in mid-tier and lower. Between the Bros pretty much any match up in the game is on lockdown except Rosa.

 

[Underhill]

ZSS is definitely a bad match up for Luigi. She can keep him out with nair/zair very reliably and juggles him very easily because of uair being huge and Luigi having a very slow fall speed. Here's how it looks at high level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFGMSozLdo (Poke was one of the only Luigi mains to make it to top 32 at TBH5 and V115 should be a familiar name if anyone played Brawl competitively)

At this point I think I'm going to be using Mario as my 'on-point'/main character and keeping Luigi as a secondary. I love playing Luigi so I'm not going to drop him and I really like his ability to secure a strong advantage against a lot of characters, but his bad match ups make it hard to choose him as the first character in a set in a big tournament. Definitely agreeing with Y Yonder that Luigi still beats out pretty much everyone in mid-tier and lower. Between the Bros pretty much any match up in the game is on lockdown except Rosa.

After watching the video, I can see that the MU is not looking good for Luigi. Poke should had respect ZZS's jiggling game alittle more instead of coming down on her with n-air. However, MU the is not that bad, though. but I'll give it a +1 or +1.5 for at best since Luigi lost his down throw kill set-ups. Plus, I rather fight her and (maybe) than or with my Luigi because I'm not afraid of the MU against . Yeah Dreamland may be alittle better than Battlefield since you'll at least have alittle more room even though ZZS can still use the platform to jiggle and pressure.
Luigi pros: Better kill options and stronger punishes. Benefits alittle more from rage than ZZS. Better grab game, better close combat, but slighty. Even though she can escape better than CF thanks to the flip kick, she still gets combed because of her falling speed and tall hurtbox.
Cons: True that she out-range him and give him trouble, approaching thanks to his crapping traction and slow mobility which she can take advantage of with n-air, b-air, projectile uncharge, and z-air and jiggle him badly, even with n-air(which Poke should use at early percent 10% or 20% against her up-airs because his n-air has less start up frames, but not to overuse it, though). Edgeguard him pretty well if you don't mix up and pray not to get read. Fight better in the air thanks to her air speed and range of her moves along with z-air and flip jump.

 

[Yonder]

Luigi still does well against Fox, Diddy, Mario, and Pikachu of note. Not as good as before but probably beats them all 55-45 instead of 60-40 now. Maybe Fox is still 60:40, he's still incredibly easy to nair moves out of, crouch lasers, gimp (fox using Firefox=dead to bair stage spike) and we even gained d throw to up b grounded. D throw to cyclone never worked on him before so why should that ratio change?

And as before, Ganondorf I believe is still our best matchup. Monkeyarms I know thinks its horrible for Luigi, but to each their own.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Ganon is definitely one of our best matchups and I think Fox is our best matchup amongst the top tiers.

I wish I could play more school takes up so much time

 

[Yonder]

Ganon is definitely one of our best matchups and I think Fox is our best matchup amongst the top tiers.

I wish I could play more school takes up so much time

My sentiments exactly. We only gained from the patch against Fox this time since D throw to cyclone was already useless on him. Fox is still 60:40. Ganondorf is still our best at 65:35...maybe 60:40 now. Nair cans his dair spike on stage [unless it kills you], fireballs stuff his approaches, he's even easier to dair spike...maybe even taunt spike if done right. Also just as easy to combo as before. Of course, he can't kill Ganondorf with D throw to cyclone now which sucks. And whiffing jab to up B is not safe against him. Ganondorf will kill Luigi edgeguarding.

Mario is still a good matchup too, though more like 55:45 instead of 60:40 now. Pre patch I actually almost beat the best person in BC in a friendly [By one...freaking...smash attack he won] who is a Mario/DDD main. Also I 2 stocked a really good Ness in friendlies. It comes close in actual tourney matches. I'd say Ness is definitely manageable.


Sorry for any inactivity. My 3DS control stick is broken [i.e stiff now] so I've been less motivated in Smash since I can't really play now. And I've been dumping lots of time beforehand into a Luigi/M2 combo. M2 is not viable yeah but not as bad as people say. He dos help cover Villager, Toon Link, and arguably Mac from my experience. Maybe even Rosalina is better for M2 than Luigi cause M2's dash attack auto kills Luma. Sheik Idk, lost cause. Trying Game and Watch there but no one beats Sheik but Sheik.

But um...any suggestions for fixing a stiff 3DS stick at all anyone? I don't want to send mine in at all.

 

[Simperheve]

I would agree that the Mario matchup is more in Mario's favour than it was pre-patch. All that seems to have happened is Luigi's lost some tools while Mario's retained the same tools he used before to make Luigi's life difficult (cape for preventing fireball approaches, edge guarding with FLUDD, decent ranged F-Smash for catching you on the recovery).

This is just an observation I made whilst playing against a Mario main I often play against (who also happens to be my brother :D).

Does anyone know which kind of characters the Jab -> Up B combo is more likely to work against?

 

[G. Stache]

My sentiments exactly. We only gained from the patch against Fox this time since D throw to cyclone was already useless on him. Fox is still 60:40. Ganondorf is still our best at 65:35...maybe 60:40 now. Nair cans his dair spike on stage [unless it kills you], fireballs stuff his approaches, he's even easier to dair spike...maybe even taunt spike if done right. Also just as easy to combo as before. Of course, he can't kill Ganondorf with D throw to cyclone now which sucks. And whiffing jab to up B is not safe against him. Ganondorf will kill Luigi edgeguarding.

Mario is still a good matchup too, though more like 55:45 instead of 60:40 now. Pre patch I actually almost beat the best person in BC in a friendly [By one...freaking...smash attack he won] who is a Mario/DDD main. Also I 2 stocked a really good Ness in friendlies. It comes close in actual tourney matches. I'd say Ness is definitely manageable.


Sorry for any inactivity. My 3DS control stick is broken [i.e stiff now] so I've been less motivated in Smash since I can't really play now. And I've been dumping lots of time beforehand into a Luigi/M2 combo. M2 is not viable yeah but not as bad as people say. He dos help cover Villager, Toon Link, and arguably Mac from my experience. Maybe even Rosalina is better for M2 than Luigi cause M2's dash attack auto kills Luma. Sheik Idk, lost cause. Trying Game and Watch there but no one beats Sheik but Sheik.

But um...any suggestions for fixing a stiff 3DS stick at all anyone? I don't want to send mine in at all.

For your sheik problem, I find that Yoshi can be rather annoying (plus his great mobility is always a breath of fresh air when you've been Luigi for a long time). I've heard greninja lost pretty hard to sheiks, but with the new shield nerfs only aiding him and his mobility and tools being pretty top notch, I can see the MU being kinder to him than it is to Luigi. I dunno, maybe sheik is just meant to be the rite of passage for us Luigi players (though I'm happy to say that I found a surprisingly fantastic sheik online and I took a game off her. Not to mention that the rest were really close.). Finally, for the circle pad, I'm no genius, but I've heard this happens pretty often for smash players. On rare cases, it does fix itself, so maybe try setting it down for a bit and play the WiiU version if that's available to you. Other than that, don't know what to tell you there :/.

 

[Yonder]

For your sheik problem, I find that Yoshi can be rather annoying (plus his great mobility is always a breath of fresh air when you've been Luigi for a long time). I've heard greninja lost pretty hard to sheiks, but with the new shield nerfs only aiding him and his mobility and tools being pretty top notch, I can see the MU being kinder to him than it is to Luigi. I dunno, maybe sheik is just meant to be the rite of passage for us Luigi players (though I'm happy to say that I found a surprisingly fantastic sheik online and I took a game off her. Not to mention that the rest were really close.). Finally, for the circle pad, I'm no genius, but I've heard this happens pretty often for smash players. On rare cases, it does fix itself, so maybe try setting it down for a bit and play the WiiU version if that's available to you. Other than that, don't know what to tell you there :/.

I cannot stand Yoshi in this game...no offense lol. But I do use Greninja in my pool of 5-6 characters, he does ok...not great, most Greninjas say Sheik wrecks him bad. My friend is an amazing Sheik player and the closest I've come was with Game and watch and WFT.

And sadly, no Wii u version. Tried playing the 3ds version again one week later and it felt a bit better, but still can't dah grab properly or dash at times which sucks.

 

[G. Stache]

I cannot stand Yoshi in this game...no offense lol. But I do use Greninja in my pool of 5-6 characters, he does ok...not great, most Greninjas say Sheik wrecks him bad. My friend is an amazing Sheik player and the closest I've come was with Game and watch and WFT.

And sadly, no Wii u version. Tried playing the 3ds version again one week later and it felt a bit better, but still can't dah grab properly or dash at times which sucks.

Fair enough, Yoshi seems to be a hit or a miss for most. As for Greninja, I feel as if people like to overestimate sheik in that MU (kind of how people overestimated Kirby's MU with Sheik...some even claiming that Kirby had the advantage). It's still a losing MU, don't get me wrong, but I feel as if Greninja has a few things going for him that make it very bearable. But, if you have a better time using G&W and Wii Fit, then good for you, I just thought sharing my experience could help. Those characters need to be used a bit more imo anyways.

 

[hey_there]

I took up Mario as a secondary months ago to deal with Sheik more evenly than Luigi could and I have not regretted it at all. He also does well in the ZSS match up, too. Since they share a lot of the same moves and have very similar frame data I found it much easier to level up my Mario compared to any other potential secondaries. At this point Mario is my co-main, and I usually pick Mario first in a set since he has much fewer losing match ups overall, going even with most of the top tier. Luigi comes out games 2 or 3 if needed or wanted because even though Mario does well, in some match ups Luigi just does better.

Plus it's the Bros.

 

[Underhill]

Next stage is Town & City. http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-stage-discussion-currently-discussing-town-city.419018/