Meta "The Key to Victory Lies Within" – The Official Robin Formal Match-Up Discussion Thread

[Raziek]

Ok, so here to offer my input. I'll go back and do Sheik later, as I promised that and never delivered.

I think anywhere between a slight advantage and a slight disadvantage is reasonable for this matchup. I lean towards even, with us having much more flexible stage counterpicks than he does.

Both characters have a really strong advantage time in this matchup. Falcon is an easy-to-combo weight and size, has a really hard time dealing with Arcfire/Speed Thunder/Elthunder, and is horribly vulnerable to Nair/Elwind gimps (offstage) and Uair/Grab traps (onstage) Conversely, Robin has a similarly difficult time getting down once Falcon gets her off the ground, but I don't think he has it as bad as he does. Her main weakness is lack of tools to defend herself while recovering (using Elwind).

Neutral Game

So, Falcon has a few main tools in the neutral game. His crazy range dash grab, his ridiculously quick dash speed, and his disjointed dash attack. Other than that, he really doesn't have much to play neutral with. His jump-ins all lose free to SH Fair/Uair from Robin. His general goal is to get in, land a grab/jab and convert that into a Uair juggle and eventual edge-guarding situation. At that point, he's then looking to close out the stock on the edge-guard. I find probably 80% of my deaths to Falcon are to his Bair offstage.

We have a pretty clear gameplan, though it varies by stage. Our main goal is to force him to have to jump when he's approaching us. As @Trifroze already noted, Falcon's dash start-up is actually pretty long, and his walk is awful, so we can actually react to his dash simply by throwing things at it. If customs are legal, Speed Thunder and Speed Elthunder are hell for Falcon to try to dash at, and are extremely safe. Otherwise, regular Elthunder and Arcfire fill this role pretty well. He also correctly noted that Arcfire should always be retreated in order to prevent punishment. Ideally, Robin is throwing it with platform cover above and in front of her.

The horizontal spacing game is designed to either rack up damage a little bit at a time, or convert into positioning/edge-guard by landing Arcfire. Falcon's model is wide and his shield size means if he tries to shield Arcfire, he is frequently stuck in the middle of the hitbox due to how far he slides during his dash. He really has to respect it, since it's not something he can just powershield and ignore.

Once he gets into boxing range, SH Fair and Jab are our go-tos. The Wind jab buff helped this matchup a TON, as Falcon has an extremely hard time getting out of it due to his fall speed. Otherwise, main boxing tools are D-tilt, F-tilt and retreating pivot grab.

Once Falcon's in the air, we can just abuse our disjoint. Falcon's Nair is insufficient for combating anything below and in front of him, so Fair just absolutely ruins his day. Once he's above us, he really has no answer to the Uair if we're spacing properly. His Dair lacks sufficient disjoint to beat out Uair, and you can trap his airdodge and grab him if he tries to airdodge past us into the ground.

I did some rudimentary testing of Ledge Eject setups vs. Falcon with @DaBeast just now. We don't have anything guaranteed, but if Falcon jumps he can get caught by Trump -> Sour Uair into Elwind or Trump -> Bair. It's a mixup at best however. I would stick mainly to Nair gimps, Fair, and Elwind spikes (or stagespikes) and/or harassment for the most part.

Once Falcon gets US off the ground there's not a whooooole lot we can do about the Wheel of Fortune (Uair chains). As was said, just take the damage and try not to eat Knee/Dair from air-dodging. At higher percents when they're not longer guaranteed, we can Elwind on reaction and land safely. I'm preeeeety sure we can't do much to avoid his Trump -> Bair, but I have not tested it extensively.

Other things worth mentioning: Falcon hates having platforms in his way in the neutral game, so I would try to stick to stages that don't just let him run around freely. (Avoid FD)

Nosferatu is also fantastic against Falcon when he's been forced onto a platform. His out-of-shield game is pretty bad, so he's pretty free to the (Robin jumps up from below you: Is it Nos or Uair?) mixup.

I might add more later, but I think that covers most things worth talking about. I think it's a pretty close matchup. Both characters have really exploitable traits, so it really comes down to which player is winning the neutral game more frequently. I think both characters have solid tools to do so. I do think it is likely a slight disadvantage without access to Speed Thunder, however.

 

[Moydow]

So it looks like Captain Falcon has a slim advantage over Robin, but with customs on, the tacticians may be able to turn the tables on him.

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And on to the next discussion...

Metroid Really Can Crawl – Zero Suit Samus

Threads of interest:

Zero Suit Samus moveset raw data (frames and damage)


When Samus sheds her armour, she can stun us, she can outrun us, and she can crawl under our magic, but can she outwit us? Without Samus' array of missiles and beams at her disposal, will the Shepherd's advantage in the firepower department prove decisive?

 

[Monado Master]

I think the many ranged attacks that Robin has are good against ZZS because she's a more up in your face kinda character. While she does have ranged attacks, her main damage output is from physical attacks. So that means Robin can keep her away.

 

[Froggy]

Why are there two matchup threads? What's the difference?

 

[Moydow]

Why are there two matchup threads? What's the difference?

As was stated in the OP:

While the original thread will remain open and can be used for immediate Q&A for a specific matchup, this thread’s more along the lines of other character MU threads, where we will go over one or two characters per week and invite the other players in to discuss the matchup.

 

[David Viran]

I think the many ranged attacks that Robin has are good against ZZS because she's a more up in your face kinda character. While she does have ranged attacks, her main damage output is from physical attacks. So that means Robin can keep her away.

Nah Bruh she wants to be in pressuring range for like nair, Zair, dsmash, Bair, etc. Despite having a frame 3 utilt and frame 1 jab.

 

[Monado Master]

Nah Bruh she wants to be in pressuring range for like nair, Zair, dsmash, Bair, etc. Despite having a frame 3 utilt and frame 1 jab.

Zair?
And yea, ZZS does want to be in pressuring range. With fast ranged attacks like Neutral and Side B, Robin is taking that pressure range off of him/herself.

 

[the king of murder]

ZSS has a brutal punish game. With Robins mobility you don't want to ever be above her. Sure, Robin can Elwind away from disadvantage but pray to Naga that the ZSS doesn't anticipate it.

Where Robin shines in this MU is the neutral. ZSS has incredible mobility and can dance circles around Robin BUT alot of her moves have quite some endlag(paralyzer and grab in particular) which we can abuse depite Robins horrible mobility since we have strong projectiles.

Robin wants to outzone her and wait for ZSS to overcommit, while ZSS wants to get into Robins personal space and pressure with her well spaced aerials like Nair, Zair and Bair.

Also people seem to be frustrated with ZSS down-b a lot. If you are one of them, airdodge into it so she is forced to flipkick you or be a bit ballsy and challenge the 2/3 of her jump with your own aerials. Disjoints are really good at that.

For now I would put it 40:60 ZSS favor.

 

[Raziek]

The obvious person to tag here is @Nairo , since he plays both characters at extremely high level.

I'll add my thoughts later.

 

[David Viran]

Zair?
And yea, ZZS does want to be in pressuring range. With fast ranged attacks like Neutral and Side B, Robin is taking that pressure range off of him/herself.

Zair is a long ranged move alot of tether characters have and use by pressing the grab button in midair. Zss can crawl under robins thunder moves and I found out her crawl is just barley higher than pikachu's crouch.

 

[Moydow]

Not much discussion on ZSS, it looks like. @ Raziek and @Nairo, if you still want to post your thoughts on the match-up, feel free to go ahead and do so, but for the rest of us, it's time to move on to the next character(s).

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Next up is...

Her Children Are The Real Stars – Rosalina and Luma

Pages of interest:

Rosalina and Luma's Frame Data
Rosalina and Luma's Advanced Techs
Rosalina Combo Thread


What sort of mother would send her children out to do her dirty work? One who's raised some pretty hard-hitting young ones, that's who. Rosalina and the Lumas are regarded as possibly the most complicated characters in the entire game, but can good old-fashioned tactics keep us three steps ahead of the mother of the cosmos herself?

 

[ChikoLad]

but can good old-fashioned tactics keep us three steps ahead of the mother of the cosmos herself?

Not when the mother of the cosmos has more advanced tactics due to having a second tactical unit.

*ba-dum-tssss*

...I'll see myself out.

 

[The_Cardinal]

A few of us actually engaged in this match-up discussion with fellow Rosalina mains back in their old match-up thread. So it might be good to give that a quick read through.

Here's the link:

http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-obsolete-succeeded.380230/page-20

The discussion is about two pages long and starts toward the bottom half of the page (look for the very conspicuous Robin image.

 

[Moydow]

I meant to update this a few days ago, but the hype train rolled into town. For the next few weeks, we'll be focusing on characters not affected by the latest patch, to give us time to get used to the new characters, and the old ones changed for better or worse. We'll also revisit the first few characters later on, particularly those who we didn't have much input on.

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Next up is...

He Ain't No Air Fighter – Little Mac

Pages of interest:

Little Mac's Frame Data
Little Mac Moveset Thread


Mac may have no air game, but he is a world champion in the ring, with a terrifying uppercut that's sure to knock you out for the count if he can land it. Can our strategist float around his jabs and hooks, and make him feel the sting of the Levin Sword? Let's find out.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Although Little Mac has no projectiles and is probably the easiest character to kill in the game, I think Robin actually loses this matchup fairly badly. Little Mac is ridiculously fast and is very small while dashing. It's impossible to camp him because he has no problems getting into your face. As long as he doesn't get grabbed at the ledge, I think Little Mac has a very good advantage over Robin, maybe 70-30.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Thunder-camping Mac is particularly difficult because of his insane ground speed and ability to Side B on reaction to whatever tier you're throwing at him. I fought a tough Mac in my first tourney and ate Jolt Haymakers CONSTANTLY. Like, every damn time I pressed the B button, lol. Arcfire ain't much to him either; his low profile on dash makes it easy for him to just run under and sock you in the face for having the audacity to try and zone. I'd say you're better off taking Fire Wall and throwing it around in the air to at least give him some kind of pause before engaging in his ridiculous rushdown game.

I think you have to try and be unpredictable in this matchup. Between a counter, Side B, and super armor smashes, it's just real easy for Mac to punish you for being on the same plane of existence. I dunno what you would do other than ledge/platform camp to reduce his options. Naturally, the good Macs will have seen this strat a million times and will have their own strats to compensate. I'm sure our stronger players have a better idea of how to actually win the match-up, I just know why it's miserable, ha ha.

 

[Centicerise]

From my experience, this is a match-up that seems initially skewed towards little mac, but playing the matchup more has shown Robin easily has a lot of tools at her disposal to deal with little mac.

One thing to keep in mind that little mac holds against us is excellent frame data. His rolls are extremely quick, allowing him to dance behind Robin and around sub-optimally placed arcfires with ease. Committing to moves up close is dangerous because of the lack of reliable moves for hitting behind Robin and the threat Little Mac holds of simply crossing you up with a roll and punishing you with the immensely fast startup on his moves. If mac is up in your grill even a missed jab can be punished by him. Tools to use in this situation are dtilt (which has superior cooldown to your jab; jab has better range though so still use that when at arm’s length), pivot ftilt (to reset your spacing), and fading or cross up aerials (especially if you have platforms to retreat to and gain some breathing space).

Additionally, Little Mac’s low dashing profile in conjunction with his side b makes using thunder variants and arcfire smartly key. It helps to know the maximum distance that his side b is capable of hitting and spacing accordingly as that distance happens to roughly correspond with the distance it’s feasible for him to simply dash under your spells. You’ll generally be using arcfire sparingly, often while retreating or as a follow up option when Little Mac is already in disadvantage to limit his movement. Try to use spells in a manner where Little Mac’s side b becomes a gamble that’ll end in a harsh punishment if he misjudges his distance and lands in front of you. Also, keep in mind it’s possible to circumvent his side b as an option completely simply by standing by the edge.

Overall you’ll probably end up using your shield generously in this matchup, as Little Mac has a pretty ****ty grab that doesn’t convert well or safely into anything (an up b whiff can be brutally punished by Robin). On the other hand Robin will probably be landing few grabs as well if the Little Mac is playing optimally because of the general safety on his moves, as well as the fact he often has little incentive to sit in his shield. The difference here is how well Robin’s grabs convert though. Getting Little Mac offstage or in the air opens up a world of possibility for Robin—nair can gimp little mac at absurdly low percentages and the pressure it exerts is perfect for forcing traps that Little Mac really struggles against. It’s absolutely essential that Robin pressure Little Mac with aerials or spells when he’s in the air as that conditions him to either airdodge, side b, or counter, all of which can result in Little Mac straight up losing the stock if Robin reads it.

Robin simply has so many options to pressure Little Mac once she gets him into disadvantage. Spells, which seemed so limited in use in neutral, really shine when little mac is in a tech, landing, or ledge situation. In the edge- guarding situation, Robin has multiple answers when Little Mac tries to recover low. Bair or the second hit of nair are perfect for safe and easy stage spikes as he up-b’s. If Robin instead opts for throwing some elwind blades down there, she should keep in mind she must time it before Little Mac up-b’s as the hitbox of Little Mac’s up-b WILL eat the blades without consequence. Alternately, throwing arcfire onto the ledge as Little Mac snaps is also a very powerful tool as it easily converts into resetting the edgeguard situation.

If Little Mac tries to recover at stage level, elthunder and nair are perfect at gimping him or forcing him to recover low. Alternatively, if you have thoron charged you can simply fire it off at him, forcing him to airdodge (and probably die). When in this situation it’s advisable to actually NOT hold b down when using thoron. The extra knockback is negligible as Little Mac will die anyway if it touches him, while the faster cooldown of not holding b can be useful for repositioning for pressure if he manages to recover.

Lastly, my favorite situation is when Little Mac tries to recover high. If you’ve been properly pressuring Little Mac with Aerials it’s in this situation that he’ll often try to rely on counter to recover. It’s then that you can empty hop to bait out a counter or air dodge, punishing it with a stock-ender like nair or f-smash. However, that’s not as stylish as what I like to do, which is intentionally whiffing the first hit of nair, connecting with the second hit and forcing a countering Little Mac to fly off the stage to his doom. It’s a super neat trick for edge-guarding Little Mac which can be done by any character. However the nature of Robin’s nair makes it absolutely perfect for this situation. Little Mac will straight up die if he gets hit by the first hit of nair; this pressure makes it attractive for him to use counter, which a prudent Robin can use to her advantage by connecting with the second hit of nair which will instantly kill Little Mac as well.

Honestly a great mixup is often just standing there charging an f-smash, which will make a landing Little Mac counter instinctively at times. Then you can just hold it and release after it’s been timed out for what will often be a stock ender.

At this point the Little Mac will likely start using quick side-b’s to mix it up, which you can also punish by airdodging, spacing it out, or just standing there and b-throwing him into the same situation when he lands.

This matchup is all about keeping your cool and playing patiently. Little Mac will probably be bruising you up pretty badly but he has to do so much more to get his kills, while you can end his stock at virtually any time. If you space safe moves like autocanceled SH aerials and tilts, with your range and disjoint, you’ll eventually land a hit that’ll quickly tip the flow of battle.

Landing a single hit or throw as Robin is when you really ramp up the pressure, converting that single blow into a situation where Little Mac has few answers to. It’s up to you to condition a Little Mac into respecting the immense power of your aerials and capitalizing on that. Unlike Little Mac, whose disadvantage state gets abused immensely by Robin, Robin always has the option of resetting to the ledge when in disadvantage, an option Little Mac has no real answers to.

The key to winning this matchup is pressing your advantage hard, that’s where all the options that you had limited access to in neutral really shine.

In the end I would say it’s even to slightly in little mac’s favor on FD and clearly in our favor on any stage with platforms. Platforms give us additional landing options and breathing space that Little Mac has trouble answering. Additionally, platforms make our trap and spacing game so much more potent. Platforms give us so many offensive and defensive advantages that Robin would be prudent to ban FD against Little Mac every single time.

 

[Moydow]

For Little Mac, it looks like one of our strongest options lies in using our stage ban effectively.

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Next up is...

Watch Out, or He'll Chew You Up – Yoshi

Pages of interest:

Yoshi Metagame Discussion
Yoshi's Frame Data (WIP)
Yoshi's Moveset Data (Incomplete)


Yoshi's jumping ability is a stark contrast to the champion boxer of last week. He's got an infinite supply of eggs, and he knows how to use them - and if you're not careful, you might even find yourself stuck inside one. Can the Robins work their way through this match-up without ending up with egg on their faces?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Yoshi can outcamp you with his up B, which is automatically bad news for Robin. His attacks are very safe and hard to punish. He's very heavy, meaning that KOing with uair will be a challenge. Thanks to his lack of a recovery up B, if he uses up his double jump he's a sitting duck for a nair gimp; however, any Yoshi that knows what they're doing will always recover high instead of low, which makes gimping a lot more difficult.

If you're up against an aggressive Yoshi, your best bet is to attempt to outzone him with Arcfire and the Thunder variants. If you're up against a campy Yoshi who spams their up B and runs away, your best bet is to start crying and hope the opponent takes pity on you.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Not the most ideal of Yoshi gameplay, but it shows that if Yoshi just tries to hard camp you, powershielding does wonders, and gets you opportunities to smack Yoshi with Speed Arcthunder and Elthunder. Know the arc patterns for the eggs and react accordingly.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Oh right, I forgot about customs. Speed Thunder will allow you to actually charge up your Thunder tome in between being pelted by eggs, so it can make this matchup less annoying.

 

[Fuerzo]

I've faced a couple good Robins. A patient Robin is IMO good at punishing Yoshi's approaches (and overly aggressive Yoshis in general), but a more spacing/punish-oriented Yoshi definitely has the upper hand in the MU, especially after tomes/Levin runs out, and massively outclasses Robin in terms of general mobility. Would be a closer MU if you weren't such amazing targets for eggs, since Yoshi has no disjoints on his melee moves. +1.5 Yoshi or so.

Your best stage might be Halberd--although Yoshi likes lower ceilings, the platforms seem very good for Robin's zoning/camping game. Meanwhile, we run circles around you on FD.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I don't have much Robin experience as no one plays him in my state so I really can only go by the one experience I had on smashladder (I got 2-0'd ).

I believe the default matchup is +1 in favor of Yoshi, with customs probably favoring Robin more.

Easily one of Robin's greatest tools in his arsenal are the arcfire and thunder. Arcfire being amazing that it has a decent size hitbox that stops grounded approaches and beats out yoshis's dash into shield approach. Thunder is amazing because it makes Robin better at camping than Yoshi does with eggs. We are forced to approach because of the fear of Robin fully charging a thoron. It is also quite easy stuffing eggs because of powershield and reading the Yoshi's egg habits.

Robin also has good coverage with his fair and makes it hard for yoshi to approach in the air. Do not let yoshi get in because he really excels at close range. Smart usage of the different levels of thunder and arcfire truly make it quite difficult for yoshi to find a way in. I got caught plenty of times with arcthunder into a grab. Also be wary of recovering to stage, elwind can be interrupted by yoshi's aerials so either try to recover low to the stage or up above.

I'm not too sure which stages benefit either character more.

 

[Moydow]

The eggs are definitely troublesome, but it appears that Speed Thunder is quickly establishing itself as the go-to custom for several match-ups.

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Next up is...

The Green-'Stached Ghost Buster – Luigi

Pages of interest:

Luigi's Frame Data (1.0.4)
Luigi Tech+Combo Thread


This week's discussion is about the leaner, greener Mario brother. While Mr. L probably can't expect to beat us by doing nothing, his infamous down throw presents him with an infinite array of potential follow-ups and combos. Is the solution as simple as "don't get grabbed"?

 

[Deleted member]

So... Luigi, eh?

In Neutral
Luigi in neutral has limited options. The basic Luigis simply go for Fireball to down throw, but they don't account for his other options. Luigi could do maneuvers like pivot grabs and, more importantly, aerials. Luigi would do short hop aerials in order to stun you for a bit and set up a punish. However, Luigi's options in neutral are very limited and have varying degrees of either being effective or just leaves him getting punished himself.
Robin in neutral has to use his Tomes, such as Thunder and Arcfire, as well as his very good jabs and would use his nair to space. Robin doesn't leave too much room to adapt to Luigi while in neutral...

Strengths and Weaknesses
I will be doing this from Luigi's perspective. So, positives are positives for Luigi and negatives for Robin and negatives are negatives for Luigi and positives for Robin.
+Robin is not good at being a campy character. Luigi's major weakness is camping, especially by those with very good projectiles (such as Mega Man and R.O.B.). Granted, while Robin has good projectiles, they don't help too much against Luigi. Thunder can be blocked, as well as Elthunder. Arcthunder is more tricky to block, however. But, all three of these projectiles can be canceled out by a Fireball, meaning that using them in neutral is a bad idea. Thoron isn't the safest projectile because it doesn't do too much shield damage, leaves Robin wide open for an attack, and Luigi's floaty nature will help him dodge it. Arcfire, while more effective, can have Luigi roll behind it while it starts activating and Luigi can punish Robin.
+Robin's air speed, while good, actually leaves him to get punished by down throws. He isn't as mobile as Ness who could dodge the down throw combos efficiently. Robin can go from 0%-50% just from down throw to forward air and Robin is a big enough target for Luigi to preform these intricate combos. I am not 100% sure, but he could be subjected to down throw to down air meteor spikes.
+Robin's ground speed is very, very pathetic. Robin can't merely run away from Luigi and thus has to rely on his tomes. The tomes are limited, so running out and missing the book can be detrimental.
-Luigi is an easy target for Robin in terms of his aerials. With the Levin Sword, Robin can just dish out damage to Luigi with his forward, back, and especially up air. Luigi's air speed is terrible, meaning Robin can follow up from an up air to an up air. Arcfire to Levin up air is particular effective, granted that Luigi didn't SDI out of Arcfire. The Levin Sword side smash, in my opinion, is actually a good move against Luigi. It spaces him out and causes Luigi to slide across the stage. Landing it will, of course, mess Luigi up. The Levin Sword is pretty key in this fight from what I've noticed.
+/- This can more so be a positive for Robin rather than them being on equal footing. Robin can easily gimp Luigi with his nair and aerials and Luigi's recovery is very predictable and very gimpable. Levin Sword aerials and nair are particularly effective. On the other hand, while Luigi's aerial range is pathetic, Robin has no defense from getting hit from any of Luigi's own aerials while he is recovering. Robin could be doomed from a down aerial by Luigi.

Stages
Battlefield is your best bet. It allows you to set up your aerials and tomes more and gives Luigi more limited room. However, the flatter the stage, the worse for Robin as you know. Final Destination and all Omegas will be the bane of your existence against Luigi because it gives him more freedom to do down throw combos.
Isle Delfino isn't a bad counterpick, but just know that it can be a double edge sword to down throw to Luigi Cyclone.
Castle Siege isn't a good idea. While perfect in the first few seconds, the second area gives you less room to Arcfire and the final portion is basically an FD area.
Robin does pretty well in the Town part of Town and City, but struggles a bit in the FD transitions and City portion of the stage due to their flat natures, but the City portion is a bit of a mixed bag (it can go well or just end horribly, but he fairs better here than on Smashville in my eyes).

Customs
Robin is a lot better in customs against Luigi, namely two of them: Speed Thunder and Fire Wall.
Speed Thunder spaces Luigi out more and gives him less time to react to the projectiles with his own Fireballs. Basically, it's the ideal custom.
Fire Wall is THE custom you want. Luigi is a punish character; he thrives off of you making a poor play and giving you a ton of damage. Fire Wall protects you from this from happening. Luigi can't rush down and down throw combo you and it limits his other options in neutral. Basically, if you don't go for this custom, then you are making a pretty big mistake.

Overall
I think that Robin really struggles in this fight personally. Some poor decision making and lack of knowledge on the matchup will have Luigi be one of your worst nightmares.
On the other hand, if Customs are in play, then you do fair a better chance.
Personally, I think it's 60:40 Luigi without Customs and 50:50 with Customs.

 

[Ultimastrike]

One thing I'd like to argue is that Luigi's Neutral B is punishable from Thoron, but I do not know how much time you have to react against a Fireball. Thoron wins any projectile war(except trades with Samus's Charge Beam Fully Charged and Lucario's fully charge Aura Ball) and should be a goal. If Luigi is getting rushdowny, Arcthunder can be an option if you're in CQC outside of DTilt and FTilt. Other than that, anything except Thoron will be clanked with Fireball.

What I hear most people say is DON'T GET GRABBED, though that's a thing with practically over 50% of the cast.

Another thing I'd like to add is that Robin can landing trap Luigi if he's coming from the air with Elthunder or Thoron(timed correctly), since Luigi does not have a reflector like his brother does.

On the offstage game, Robin does suffer from Luigi's FAir->BAir Frame trap, which we should expect to tech on those occasions. If Luigi's offstage far enough he will be forced to recover with Green Missile, which can in fact be Elwind Spiked if Robin is in the right position. Most Luigis might decide to recover high with it so as not to hit the stage and become extremely vulnerable.

 

[gameonion]

Oh my, Luigi is the character I have the most problems with.

Once you get grabbed, it's hard to get out of his combos. He's speedy too, so good luck trying to catch him with Arcfire. Arcthunder and Thoron on the other hand are good punishes imo. Thoron can punish his projectiles and Arcthunder can be used at the ledge to start some kind of Aerial combo. Still hard to do.

Other things you can do against him? Trying to punish with Nair is possible, while being hard. Nosferatu is completely forgettable, since he is so fast. One things that is possible though is punishing his recovery with Elwind, because it's so predictable.

But other than that, I feel like Robin has no chance. Luigi just has too many good combos and he is way too fast.

 

[Ultimastrike]

Oh my, Luigi is the character I have the most problems with.

Once you get grabbed, it's hard to get out of his combos. He's speedy too, so good luck trying to catch him with Arcfire. Arcthunder and Thoron on the other hand are good punishes imo. Thoron can punish his projectiles and Arcthunder can be used at the ledge to start some kind of Aerial combo. Still hard to do.

Other things you can do against him? Trying to punish with Nair is possible, while being hard. Nosferatu is completely forgettable, since he is so fast. One things that is possible though is punishing his recovery with Elwind, because it's so predictable.

But other than that, I feel like Robin has no chance. Luigi just has too many good combos and he is way too fast.

I wouldn't say "he has no chance". I believe @ Raziek has come close to taking a set from a very good Luigi back in 3DS.

 

[The_Cardinal]

I wouldn't say "he has no chance". I believe @ Raziek has come close to taking a set from a very good Luigi back in 3DS.

He took out a Luigi in Loser's Semis or something like that in a recent tournament like two weeks ago.

 

[Raziek]

I will try to get back to this later, but for now I will quote this post:

I'm pretty adamant about my opinion on the Luigi MU, it's definitely an advantage for Robin. Whether that means 60-40 or 55-45 though, is up for discussion. Luigi has one approach option: run up and grab. Yes, he can use fireballs to cover himself and make that option safe, but it's very predictable and you can react in many different ways. If you're pretty far away, you can arcfire the fireball so it explodes closer to you, and slightly higher (Although the preferred action is waiting for a fireball and punishing with Thoron). Having Thoron charged is VITAL in the MU, and to be honest, it's probably the MU where you play the most campy and reactive (aka like a jerk). Everytime he is knocked off stage you can either charge thoron or edge-guard, depending on what he has to do to get back. When you get a book pretend it's a better Thoron and punish fireballs. Although with book you can definitely go on the aggressive as long as you re-catch off sheild. Carelessness (which is why Robin's death quote should exclusively be "I was careless") in the MU leads to getting demolished (see game 2), but if you play smart and patient I feel like it's pretty simple.

Yes, I am the Dath from FL that played at CEO. I played poorly on my stream match due to stage jitters (multiple panicky high recoveries), it's VERY different for me than just a regular tournament (our local weeklies go 80+) with 100+ unknown people cheering etc. I actually played much better off stream and beat DKWill's Sheik as well as Captain Zach (the peach player I fought on stream) in money matches. I would be down for some friendlies at some point, I'm EST and usually available any night except Thursday or Friday.

As for customs, I am not too experienced with them. I usually opt for 1311 in almost every MU (although Luigi is one where I stay default lol). I'll go 2311 in doubles sometimes, and after watching Raziek's videos I'm interested in trying out speed thunder, but I'm worried about the big drop in damage/kill power.

 

[Dathx]

I'll add this:

Ex #2 Against Luigi (60-40): Use thoron whenever Luigi attempts a non-jump approach like fireball or roll, arcfire when he just runs up, or you have space and force him to jump, when he does, outrange him with amazing air game. You have to abuse your amazing gimping tools, off-stage Luigi is super susceptible to anything, even just an elwind to send him back FORCES his double jump.

No sound and minimal commentary because for some reason the stream equipment was working, but me vs. probably the best Luigi in SFL (Lancelot):
http://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/v/6117046?t=1h07m21s

Also, since I realize I'm in the minority here, I could ask Lancelot to come by and give his view on Luigi's side.

 

[Moydow]

Some differing opinions on Luigi - some say it's in Robin's favour, some say it's in Luigi's favour. All I know is, that's the end of the discussion period.

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Next up is...

Not All Angels Can Fly – Pit

Pages of interest:

Pit's Frame Data
Pit/Dark Pit Metagame Thread


Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's this week's discussion topic: Pit, the most loyal servant of the Goddess Palutena, and an angel who can't even fly without his goddess' permission. His arrows won't make you love him, and his powerful Upperdash Arm can knock away most of Robin's projectiles. Which of these two will become Thanatos' latest victim?

 

[Ultimastrike]

I've played this MU a while back, but I'm not too certain I remember everything, so I'll try to remember the best I can about this one.

Pit has a few things in his arsenal(provided we aren't talking about his darker counterpart) that can increase the risk of using Robin's projectiles, examples being Upperdash Arm or Guardian Orbitars. Alongside that, Pit has a projectile he can spam to impunity on Robin to stop his charge to Arcthunder and Thoron. Since Elthunder is half a second to charge, it'll be Robin's main tool to stop rushdown as long as it's not predictable.

Pit's ground game is pretty tough to crack, but the best thing you can use is Jab, as Pit at the start may rely on either grabs to combo into his UAir/NAir or SH FAir spacing. Light Arrows can be shielded at best, but can be beaten by Thoron on a read. I am unsure whether Pit's Light Arrow is punishable by Thoron since I don't know how long he has before he can act differently, so some input may be helpful here. Arcfire is a safe use on Pit's Guardian Orbitars or Upperdash Arm(due to putting him in the active attack animation like :4pittoo: . Guardian Orbitars is also punishable if you time Thoron JUST right as he's letting down his shields.

On the air game, Robin's FAirs are beaten by Pit's due to the sheer range. However, our UAir is our best tool for beating him, as Pit's DAir does not have as much vertical range as Levin UAir. Levin BAir is about the same as FAir, except at a different angle, versus Pit's FAir.

Offstage, Robin needs to be careful about his return to the stage, as Pit has DAir to kill us on the sweetspot if we are coming low. If we come high, Pit's BAir may be challenged with FAir or our own BAir. On the flip side, it's VERY difficult to gimp Pit's recovery unless you either Elwind Spike, DAir Spike, or get him low enough below the stage and far off the side.

That's my take on it, so just take my ideas with a grain of salt.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm a dark pit main (basically a pit main) and I'd have to say from my experience that this MU is slightly in pit/pitoo's favor. But only by probably 60/40. This is due to pit having better frame data and having a better edge game.

In the beginning pit is going to rely a lot on throw combos to rack up your damage so don't rely on your shield as much, use your spot dodge. As previously stated, arc fire is safe from our orbiters so you should use it to start many of your strings. Pitt will probably always lead in the % battle due to better range and faster attacks, but your big advantage is your superior KO potential. Pit is a very well rounded character with few glaring weaknesses but his KO potential leaves something to be desired. If you can claim the first stock it is really hard for pit to catch up because he relys so much on rage to help him get kills. Your favorable position is below him. Besides his dair (which your uair beats) he has few options for getting back to the floor.
If you read enough of the pit/dark pit forums, you'll notice that pits game is mostly centered around punishing mistakes rather than out witting or out prioritizing your foes. His biggest tool for this is his mixup game between his ridiculous dash attack his great dash grab (second best to Falcons). Play conservatively and let him come to you and you may find that pits approach isn't as intimidating as it seems. pit try's to pressure you into making mistakes and capitalizing on them. Don't make mistakes and he has a lot of trouble getting in with his options alone. He will attempt to bait out your slower attacks, don't do it. At high percentages Pits will often use an up or down throw to get you high in the air. Pit cannot follow up these throws, but he looks like he can. Pits use an empty jump only to bait out your air dodge and allow them to fast fall to punish you with his upsmash, don't fall for this dirty trick. Pit isn't super fast in the air and can't follow his foes very far vertically so be ready for the upsmash on your landing rather than his fake juggle approach. As far as His edge guarding goes, pit will normally use arows to try and gimp your recovery while dark pit is much more likely to go off stage and challenge you. This is due to dark pits electro arm having better lateral KO power instead of vertical. It has super armor so don't try to beat it. Electro arm doesnt make dark pit helpless afterwards but it dose have an absurd amount of ending lag that drags him down, if you can bait him into doing it too low the ending lag will cause him to SD.

I would just recommend tight play and rely less on your lightening due to orbiters. The MU is in pits favor, but it turns around in your favor if you can only manage to get the first kill.

 

[Dathx]

I'll contribute a bit here since my opinion differs from what is posted.

Recently had a lot of experience in this MU with both Pit and Dark Pit. The general idea is arcfire is pretty safe with the Pit's low air mobility/approach. You have to watch out for dash attack and dash grab, both can be dealt with by short hop fair if/when he gets close. In general play the zoning game in this MU and wait for him to over-commit/get frustrated. They do have a lot of range on dash attack/aerials/jab so we can't abuse range, but they are just as slow as us in the air so timing is important. Once you start hitting him, try to not give him any breathing room.

Off-stage we are just as much as a threat as they are. Their recovery has no hit boxes (unless they side-b, which you need to learn to react to and fast-fall double jump uair or hit it with a weak projectile so they go into the weird reflect animation and punish them) so hit them with dair or Elwind if they try to up-b. They can come after us as well, so stay tricky with your recovery, the difference is that we can kill them if they come after us when we still have double jump, so save it when possible.

Overall, I think the MU is pretty self-explanatory. Don't challenge him when he hits you up, go to the edge and restart ground neutral. Thoron punish if he is campy or arcthunder if he is aggressive. 60-40 our favor.

 

[Meneil]

Pit/Dark Pit are fundamentally sound characters that primarily focus on outzoning and spacing their opponent. They'll primarily be playing the ground game and looking for grabs, dash attacks, or baiting out moves and punishing with tilts. Their jab is more disjointed than Robin's so be careful on challenging it. At low-mid %s they'll likely be looking for grabs to combo off of (edit: they cannot do a lot of these combos if they are at enrage, so taking the first stock can be very helpful), then focus mainly on getting Robin offstage. Like Dath said it's good to hold onto your double jump, it's better to risk taking the % than taking death.

Robin can also apply much pressure to Pit offstage as well. Elwind if they are going straight vertical, or just hit with Fair and reset positioning. Onstage Robin has a lot of good tools to keep them out, mixing it up between thunders/arcfires/aerials. Nosferatu goes through their down b shields. Pit's aerials aren't great kill moves, so remember that he'll mainly be going for an Fthrow or grounded smash attacks, maybe side b if Robin is mashing a lot of buttons. Unless hit offstage, Robin should be outliving them.

I'd put put this close to an even MU, possibly +1 Robin's favor since we have more tools to keep him out.

 

[Moydow]

Again we have some contrasting opinions on the Pits. The next discussion takes us from the sky back to solid ground.

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Next up is...

Your Pain, Their Gain – Wii Fit Trainer

Pages of interest:

Wii Fit Trainer Hitbox Data
Wii Fit Trainer Competitive Discussion/Advanced Tech thread
Wii Fit Trainer board index (guides, ATs, etc.)


A fitness trainer may be exactly what Robin needs to get his/her running speed up to scratch - unfortunately, this trainer is more likely to make your lifespan shorter, rather than longer. Will Frederick's many Fanatical Fitness Hours stand to the tactician in this match-up, or is beating a trained professional a stretch too far?

 

[Champ Gold]

Best reminder is don't get too close to Wii Fit Trainer AND AVOID ROLLING, her F-smash hits on both sides and has a deceptive hitbox


Also your biggest threat are headers than Sun Salutations. Reason being is like Samus' missiles, they'll throw one out before that as well plus don't let her off stage, they can charge all of their moves and easily stall the match and yourself from doing anything significant.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Robin match up is so easy for me. Easiest MU for Wii fit tbh

Robin is wide and the perfect weight to be combod to oblivion by Wii fit Nair. Robin is slow and pretty easy to outcamp with Wii fit. Full charged sun goes through all of his projectiles. Robin is extremely easy to gimp as well. Not much he can do off stage vs Wii fit.

All l Robin has over Wii fit is disjointed hit boxes and long range thanks to levin sword, but that's about it. Wii fit dances around Robin and there's not much he can do about it.

My bro is one of the best Robins in SoCal and he agrees that Wii fit has the advantage. I've never lost to any other Robin, because the mu is that easy. If any Wii fit mains struggle vs Robin.... They are using Wii fit incorrectly lol

With customs enabled. Robin becomes hella easier. Heavy hitter side b custom combos Robin for days and jumbo hoops wrecks him badly. Customs are dead now, but ehh thought I'd mention them.

For those who may think I'm talking out of my ass or giving silly info. I'm the best Wii Fit Trainer in the West Coast and made it to Top 32 at Evo using Wii Fit Trainer and Mii Gunner

 

[Macchiato]

WiiFit and Robin

Neutral Game
WiiFit will not need to approach most of the time due to faster projectiles. Robin may have trouble approach due to SS covering ground approaches and Header for covering aerial approaches. Due to Robin's approaches not being safe on shield, WiiFit can most likely shield all the approaches. WiiFit can mostly punish most moves with her jab or dash attack. WiiFit's most successful OOS options are bair, jab, and ftilt. Robin can space due to better range but WiiFit has superior frame data and has more mobility (LOL who doesn't). WiiFit can crouch under all forms of thunders, Fire is reactable. Robin is known for landing lag too, WiiFit can easily punish with a nair combo. Nair-Nair-Nair-Header does 70+ damage and is inescapable. If Fire catches her, she can and will get comboed and have a trouble landing due to nair not having a big hitbox under her. WiiFit will not shield a lot so notferasu will not be a big part of this MU. Wii Fit can also bait robin with empty hops but robin can to, but not as well due to WiiFit having a better jump. Basically, in neutral, WiiFit has more options

KOs
While they both have kill power, they both have struggle landing a kill outside of OOS Bairs. If WiiFit is near the ledge, Robin can get a Bthrow off. Same with WiiFit and uair. Robin's and WiiFit's smashes are hard read moves. Robin does have a kill set-up which is ArcFire to Uair. ArcFire can be SDIed out of especially since WiiFit is floaty. WiiFit has nair to usmash but it is a bit hard to pull off. At higher percents like 130%, WiiFit has SS, Ftilt, and Uthrow. Robin has Fair, ArcThunder, and Dash Attack.

Edgeguarding
WiiFit can be gimped but it can be a risk. WiiFit can stage spike Robin with the hoops if he tried to spike her. WiiFit has three spikes and can shoot a SS offstage to gimp. Shooting headers can also work and sometimes snipe them offstage.

Stages
I feel like Wii Fit would benefit from stages with Platforms much more. I would ban BF/DL/MV and T&C against WiiFit. Robin probably won't like CS due to the statues stopping ArcFire and the Thunders excluding thoron. WiiFit can definitely shark on Delfino and net early kills and camp all match.

Score
60:40​