The future of the Smash series

[-_skinny_-]

Link to original post: [drupal=4218]The future of the Smash series[/drupal]



Ok so I don't know if anyone posted this somewhere else but these are ideas I came up with on my own with the help of some friends and other support.

Anyways not to get sidetracked, I have a paranoid theater that if Brawl isn't the last game in the series, the next Smash Bros. title might be the final one. Then i was wondering why, why would we be so close to an end of a perfectly good series? The answer is easy, no room to expand and if the series keeps up, people might get bored of the same idea in every game. The best feature in the series is the combat mechanism. I was thinking that could be the foundation of a greater empire of games. I realize Nintendo would have to make deals with third party companies, but i believe that could work marvelously. So these are just some ideas:

New feature- Learning AI
Your AI will still be level 1-9, but when you assign yourself a name, the game reads, records, analyzes, and applies things you do in certain situations and when the computer encounters those situations, the AI does different things depending on what name is selected for it. Sort of a personalized AI.

"SSB All-stars" (Characters from any NES/SNES games)
Has obvious characters like Mario, Link, Yoshi, basically the entire cast of the N64 version plus others like Bomber-Man, Megaman, Crash Bandicoot, and Arthur from "ghosts and ghouls". Those are just some characters obviously, you guys can come up with more if you want.

"SSB New Challengers" (Characters from newer games)
I always wanted to see Travis Touchdown go head to head with Leon Scott Kennedy, and in this game they finally can. Some others include: Master Chief, Kratos, the guy from Assassins Creed, and more i just can't think of any.

"SSB Villains" (Antagonists of video games)
Somewhat explanatory i guess.

"SSB Pokemon Master" (This one is my favorite out of them all)
Ok so picture any pokemon game you've played on a hand-held. Now picture that in 3D graphics but instead of waiting your turn to choose a command for your pokemon, you learn/assign moves to your pokemon. You make your own party and everything, just a more realistic combat system. Yeah tell me you don't love that.

So these are just some ideas that will hopefully make it to the ears of the Smash staff. Once again these are just a jumping off point for a huge potential of ideas that we just haven't thought of yet.

 

[Snuc]

The thing is, SSB villains, newcomers, and pokemon master would never work because SSB strictly refers to mario and luigi, does it not?

 

[Alus]

All of those ideas seem to be a huge jump.

I see licence issues, programming errors, and the "pokemon master" thing is incredibly vague. "more realistic combat system?" are you trying to say "real time"? If not I'm completely lost.

Also, for the sake of it, your reason for why the smash series would end is false, look at pokemon, street fighter, doom, quake, etc

 

[Spelt]

considering smash is basically the only fighting game with this system, i think we're set for at least another 4-5 games.

 

[Alus]

Actually there are a few games with the style of play, however they arent popular.

 

[tera twin]

I think Reggie from NoA referred to brawl as "the brawl to end them all"

 

[SuperMetroid44]

All of those ideas seem to be a huge jump.

I see licence issues, programming errors, and the "pokemon master" thing is incredibly vague. "more realistic combat system?" are you trying to say "real time"? If not I'm completely lost.

Also, for the sake of it, your reason for why the smash series would end is false, look at pokemon, street fighter, doom, quake, etc

I think he means Pokemon actually hitting each other, like kicks, other moves, etc etc.

"SSB Pokemon Master" (This one is my favorite out of them all)
Ok so picture any pokemon game you've played on a hand-held. Now picture that in 3D graphics but instead of waiting your turn to choose a command for your pokemon, you learn/assign moves to your pokemon. You make your own party and everything, just a more realistic combat system. Yeah tell me you don't love that.

I can see that working, but as a replacement? No. No offense, but all those ideas would definitely not work as something to make "SSB" more interesting.

 

[Alus]

I think he means Pokemon actually hitting each other, like kicks, other moves, etc etc.

I can see that working, but as a replacement? No. No offense, but all those ideas would definitely not work as something to make "SSB" more interesting.

Yeah, that's what I meant by real time, instead of any type of turn table. Have commands input and output in real time. As a fighter.

 

[Big-Cat]

No room to expand? Yeah right. Heck, there really wasn't a whole lot of new stuff in Brawl. There's a lot you can do really:

1. Revamp the DI system. - Let traditional fighting game combos (whether they're links or chains or not idk) exist with certain attacks being resets involving DI.
2. Expand on previously established mechanics and moves. - For example, I love how Project M turned Din's Fire into a crazy zoning move.
3. Introduce/Return Melee's mobility options.
4. Making Final Smashes a part of the moveset.
5. Implement balancing safeguards and defensive mechanics such as tech grabs.

 

[-_skinny_-]

The thing is, SSB villains, newcomers, and pokemon master would never work because SSB strictly refers to mario and luigi, does it not?

False, Mario and Luigi are just classic characters that showed up in every game, but a game can still go on without them

I think he means Pokemon actually hitting each other, like kicks, other moves, etc etc.

That is exactly what i mean. And sorry for not explaining myself better the first time

I can see that working, but as a replacement? No. No offense, but all those ideas would definitely not work as something to make "SSB" more interesting.

Ugh, it's not a replacement. Just think of the SSB series as a tree. Right now it's more like a sapling, but it will grow into a huge tree with a bunch of branches. These ideas are just those branches.

NOONE SEEMS TO MENTION THE AI THING!!! That was my favorite :/

 

[Life]

I stopped reading at "Master Chief" (okay, not seriously, but do you understand how copyright works at all? It took quite a bit of maneuvering to get Snake and Sonic in [or it would have if Smash wasn't already so famous--whatshisface practically BEGGED to get Snake in Melee (but was too late in development to get it, hence why he's in Brawl), and supposedly Mega Man would have made it if Nintendo and Capcom weren't each waiting for the other to ask about it])

A Pokemon-themed Smash game would be excellent. If it could actually be programmed. We have, what, six hundred some right now? If you cut out prevos, it's still probably around three hundred. Cut some Ubers, you're probably at 250ish. Good luck programming that. Or you could have a set roster, but booooooooooring.

As for the AI thing: You realize that up until a year or two ago we all thought that the Brawl AI learned from us? (And some of us still do, even though it's been disproven, but that's more of a "lie circles the world before truth gets its boots on" deal.)

And a series doesn't NEED to be overhauled to justify a new game. Mario gets a couple new power ups in every game but otherwise is pretty formulaic (in 2D at least). Zelda, even more so. Pokemon? It does revamp stuff each game, but most of that is relatively under-the-hood and most people will only notice the new Pokemon and story. Mario Kart is the same.

I imagine Smash 4 giving us a couple new techs (and probably a couple returns from Melee if the rumors about the next console are true), taking out tripping, maybe some other things, but people will only notice the new characters and stages (and SSE2, if it's there).

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

The one I think would have the most realistic chance of being made would be the Pokemon fighter, but even then the roster would have to be a "best-of" from each Generation if you want the game to be complete in any reasonable amount of time.

 

[Snuc]

False, Mario and Luigi are just classic characters that showed up in every game, but a game can still go on without them

Actually its true, Super Smash Brothers refers to the brothers Mario and Luigi. Its derived from Super Mario Brothers. Meaning they are a requirement if the game continues with the prefix "SSB"

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I stopped reading at Master Chief. No one will get sick of the series. They've only made 3 games in the past what, 10 years?

Is Street Fighter dead? No and look how many version and sequels to that there are.

Cross over games will always sell because they're every fan boy's dream come true. By the time one generation gets tired of them IF they get tired of them, there will (already is) a whole new generation ready to jump in on the sheer awesome of it.

 

[§witch]

No room to expand? Yeah right. Heck, there really wasn't a whole lot of new stuff in Brawl. There's a lot you can do really:

1. Revamp the DI system. - Let traditional fighting game combos (whether they're links or chains or not idk) exist with certain attacks being resets involving DI.
2. Expand on previously established mechanics and moves. - For example, I love how Project M turned Din's Fire into a crazy zoning move.
3. Introduce/Return Melee's mobility options.
4. Making Final Smashes a part of the moveset.
5. Implement balancing safeguards and defensive mechanics such as tech grabs.

All of these ideas just make smash a traditional fighter. Which it isn't.

 

[Spelt]

All of these ideas just make smash a traditional fighter. Which it isn't.

Yeah.

Plus, random technical barriers aren't competitively sound at all. the only reason it worked for melee is because people were all learning them at the same time when they were being discovered initially.

 

[Big-Cat]

All of these ideas just make smash a traditional fighter. Which it isn't.

The only ones that were close to traditional fighters were the first and fourth ones. Read again. The other three were expanding on previously established concepts.

And I never meant to say bring all the melee back. However, I want to say technical barriers are not a bad thing. If they're there for the sake of it such as L-Canceling, I don't want it. If overcoming the technical barrier grants access to plenty of strategic options, I'm fine with it.

 

[Spelt]

Well, that's reasonable.

but really all nintendo would have to do to make smash more competitive is tone down the randomness.
a few other minor things would need tweaking too, but those would be fixed after some playtesting.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The only ones that were close to traditional fighters were the first and fourth ones. Read again. The other three were expanding on previously established concepts.

And I never meant to say bring all the melee back. However, I want to say technical barriers are not a bad thing. If they're there for the sake of it such as L-Canceling, I don't want it. If overcoming the technical barrier grants access to plenty of strategic options, I'm fine with it.

I get your point, but l canceling does grant access to plenty of strategic options, just saying.

 

[Ghostbone]

I get your point, but l canceling does grant access to plenty of strategic options, just saying.

You could just cut the lag of every move by half and it would have the same effect though.

 

[-_skinny_-]

In the n64 SSB L-Canceling cut out all the lag, and to be honest, even though i use it alot, its pretty cheap xD

 

[Big-Cat]

Let's not turn this into an L-Canceling debate, but I'll say this. If L-Canceling was automatic, there would be no strategic difference from when L-Canceling was manual.

To get back to the main topic, you need more than new modes and characters to justify a sequel.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Someone is gonna mention the shield difference with how you can mess up an L cancel, not like I thought it matter or was enough by itself to warrant it's inclusion.

About a new smash game, I dunno I think from what they have released, new modes and characters which is how each game worked in ways.

Maybe Smash Bros. vs Capcom, it would make it unique in it's own way, still hard to figure out how to make the SF characters and such work in a Smash bros environment.

 

[Big-Cat]

Someone is gonna mention the shield difference with how you can mess up an L cancel, not like I thought it matter or was enough by itself to warrant it's inclusion.

About a new smash game, I dunno I think from what they have released, new modes and characters which is how each game worked in ways.

Maybe Smash Bros. vs Capcom, it would make it unique in it's own way, still hard to figure out how to make the SF characters and such work in a Smash bros environment.

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/feb/12/if-street-fighter-characters-were-smash-bros/

The issue comes though for characters with less than four specials (Guile) and characters that need specific buttons for attacks and followups (Juri and El Fuerte), but the latter can be remedied by using the 3 and 9B inputs.

 

[Falconv1.0]

You could just cut the lag of every move by half and it would have the same effect though.

I know, which is why I said I get his point, but the statement itself was a little flawed. I haven't heard of any required tech barrier that DOESN'T open up plenty of options, so yeah, it conflicts with his original statement.

But sure, keep missing my point by a few miles. I'm not arguing 'in favor of l canceling', that'd be ****ing ********. But he might as well say "I don't like chocolate, unless it's a food."

 

[Mota]

I definitely like the idea of the pokemon one. Choosing the pokemons moveset, you're team, there's a plethora of things you could implement in such a game. *imagines*

 

[Big-Cat]

I know, which is why I said I get his point, but the statement itself was a little flawed. I haven't heard of any required tech barrier that DOESN'T open up plenty of options, so yeah, it conflicts with his original statement.

But sure, keep missing my point by a few miles. I'm not arguing 'in favor of l canceling', that'd be ****ing ********. But he might as well say "I don't like chocolate, unless it's a food."

I should've been a little more specific in my statement. Hopefully, if I ever get around to righting this essay in mind, it'll explain everything.

When it comes to technical barriers, ask yourself this. If this was made automatic or simplified in execution, would this affect the game from a strategic perspective? Making L-Canceling automatic wouldn't change anything, but making specials regulated to one button will limit your options as you may or may not lose access to other versions of the attack that are essential to the playstyle such as Juri's fireball or taunt or Litchi's 41236D followups.

Is that clear enough?

On the OP, a learning AI would be much harder than you think. The main flaws with CPU opponents are that they do not play like human players. They do not guess as they read the inputs. They do not bait. They have absolutely perfect execution. At most, you can have AI based off of pro players, but even that's limited.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I should've been a little more specific in my statement. Hopefully, if I ever get around to righting this essay in mind, it'll explain everything.

When it comes to technical barriers, ask yourself this. If this was made automatic or simplified in execution, would this affect the game from a strategic perspective? Making L-Canceling automatic wouldn't change anything, but making specials regulated to one button will limit your options as you may or may not lose access to other versions of the attack that are essential to the playstyle such as Juri's fireball or taunt or Litchi's 41236D followups.

Is that clear enough?

Yep.

On the OP, a learning AI would be much harder than you think. The main flaws with CPU opponents are that they do not play like human players. They do not guess as they read the inputs. They do not bait. They have absolutely perfect execution. At most, you can have AI based off of pro players, but even that's limited.

Devs should really just look at some of the videos of ****ing old broken Akuma as a final boss and learn from that. You could use exploits against him and he'd usually find a way to get around it, kinda awesome. Either way though, Nintendo, AI, good one OP.

 

[theeboredone]

Anyone worried Nintendo is gonna start doing the whole "DLC" stuff? I could care less about costumes, but what would bother me is if some characters have to be bought.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I hate having to pay money just for a single character...

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

Anyone worried Nintendo is gonna start doing the whole "DLC" stuff? I could care less about costumes, but what would bother me is if some characters have to be bought.

Even though there are some Wii games where you have to pay for additional content, I don't think Nintendo would do that for their games.

 

[§witch]

Even though there are some Wii games where you have to pay for additional content, I don't think Nintendo would do that for their games.

Of course they would.

 

[JOE!]

As for the Pokemon fighter, I'd assume it would be all Fully - Evolved with no legends...(to keep the power-scale semi-even)

which leaves the roster at:

Spoiler

[collapse=Gen 1]
Venusaur
Charizard
Blastoise
Butterfree
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Raticate
Fearow
Arbok
Pikachu / Raichu
Sandslash
Nidoqueen/king
Clefable
Ninetales
Wigglytuff
Vileplume/Belossom
Parasect
Venomoth
Dugtrio* probably wouldnt work
Persian
Golduck
Primeape
Arcanine
Poliwrath/toed
Alakazam
Machamp
Victreebel
Tentacruel
Golem
Rapidash
Slowbro/king
Farfetch'd
Dodrio
Dewgong
Muk
Cloyster
Gengar
Hypno
Kingler
Electrode
Exeggutor
Marowak
The Hitmons
Weezing
Kangaskhan
Seaking
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Pinsir
Tauros
Scyther/Scizor
Gyarados
Lapras
Ditto? (probably just the random button lol)
Eeveelutions
Omastar
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Dragonite

[collapse=Gen 2]
Meganium
Typhlosion
Feraligatr
Furret
Noctowl
Ledian
Ariados
Crobat
Lanturn
Xatu
Ampharos
Azumarill
Sudowoodo
Jumpluff
Sunflora
Quagsire
Wobbufett
Girafarig
Forretress
Dunsparce
Steelix
Granbull
Qwilfish
Shuckle
Heracross
Ursaring
Magcargo
Corsola
Octillery
Delibird
Mantine
Skarmory
Houndoom
Kingdra
Donphan
Stantler
Smeargle (work like sharade from SC2?)
Miltank
Blissey
Tyranitar
[/collapse]
[collapse=Gen 3]
Sceptile
Blaziken
Swampert
Mightyena
Linoone
Beautifly
Dustox
Ludicolo
Shiftry
Swellow
Pelipper
Gardevoire/Gallade
Masquerain
Breloom
Slaking
Ninjask/Shedinja
Exploud
Hariyama
Delcatty
Sableye
Mawile
Aggron
Medicham
Menetric
Plusle & Minun
Volbeat & Illumise
Sharpedo
Wailord?
Camerupt
Torkoal
Grumpig
Spinda
Flygon
Cacturne
Altaria
Zangoose
Seviper
Lunatone
Solrock
Whiscash
Crawdaunt
Claydol
Cradily
Armaldo
Milotic
Castform
Keckleon
Banette
Tropius
Chimecho
Absol
Glalie / Frosslass
Walrein
Huntail/Gorebyss
Relicanth
Luvdisc?
Salamence
Metagross
[/collapse]
[collapse=Gen 4]
Torterra
Infernape
Empoleon
Staraptor
Bibarel
Kriketune
Luxray
Roserade
Rampardos
Bastiodon
Wormadam
Mothim
Vespiqueen
Pachirisu
Floatzel
Cherim
Gastrodon
Ambipom
Drifblim
Lopunny
Mismagius
Honchkrow
Purugly
Skuntank
Bronzong
Chatot
Spiritomb
Garchomp
Lucario
Hippowdon
Drapion
Toxicroak
Carnivine
Lumineon
Abomasnow
Weavile
Magnezone
Lickilicki
Rhyperior
Tangrowth
Electivire
Magmortar
Togekiss
Yanmega
Gliscor
Mamoswine
Porygon-Z
Probosspass
Dusknoir
Rotom (shape shifter)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Gen 5]
Serperior
Emboar
Samurott
Watchog
Stoutland
Liepard
Simisage/sear/pour
Musharna
Unfeazant
Zebstrika
Gigalith
Swoobat
Excadrill
Audino
Conkeldurr
Seismitoad
Sawk
Throh
Leavanny
Scolipede
Whimsicott
Lilligant
Basculin
Krookodile
Darmanitan
Maractus
Crustle
Scrafty
Sigilyph
Co***rigus
Carracosta
Archeops
Garbodor
Zoroark
Cinccino
Gothitelle
Reuniclus
Swanna
Vanilluxe
Sawsbuck
Emolga
Escavalier
Amoongus
Jellicent
Amolamola
Galvantula
Ferrothorn
Klinklang
Eelektross
Beheeyem
Chandelure
Haxorus
Beartic
Cryoganol
Accelgor
Stunfisk
Mienshao
Druddigon
Golurk
Bisharp
Boufallant
Braviary
Mandibuzz
Heatmor
Durant
Hydreigon
Volcarona
[/collapse]
[/collapse]

assuming all the starters and pseudo-legends are in, that already gives us a roster of 21...

also, as for editing moves, how exactly would that work? And wouldnt it just meta-game itself into which pokemon used T-bolt best or such? Leaving potential pokes such as say, Heatmor, who isnt so hot (lolpun) in the actual Pokemon games, but could have potential in a Smash-esque environment due to his moveset there, etc..

 

[Teran]

Of course they would.

A million times this.