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The Frostbite 2017 Discussion Thread

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,340
One of the best sets in Smash 4 history, arguably the best Grand Final this game has ever had, alongside Nairo vs ZeRo at MLG World Finals. If Tsu won I would have gone so far as to say it'd be the best Grand Final set in Smash history, perhaps even better than Evo 2016.

It's a bit of a bittersweet feeling that I kind of don't expect Lucario to ever do this well (or rather, surprise anyone) at another major anymore lol. Just imagine how incredible it'd be if it happened. Like a lightning bolt out of nowhere that no one expected.
 
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Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Zero is awake as hell in this interview. He's pointing out that Tsu was keeping him up with neutral, with Lucario. I was kind of blown away that Tsu stepped his neutral up even more in Game 5. So good, and probably the biggest reason he was such a consistent slayer throughout the tourney.
 

Froggy

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
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3DS FC
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Only Japan is capable of using not top tier characters at this level. We wouldn't have ever seen an America ever get an Olimar or Lucario into top 8 at a tourney of this level. It took Japan to show potential in characters like Mewtwo and Villager as well. Tourneys became a lot more fun ever since more Japanese started attending. I would have probably been bored with the game otherwise
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Honestly, maybe other people have smaller top tiers than I do, but what is it that makes Lucario only high tier while characters like Mewtwo and Marth are accepted as top tier?
 

TDK

Smash Master
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Sep 11, 2015
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Honestly, maybe other people have smaller top tiers than I do, but what is it that makes Lucario only high tier while characters like Mewtwo and Marth are accepted as top tier?
My guess is that people like Round numbers. The current Top tier is sitting at around 12 - 13 with Lucario - which probably rubs people the wrong way. I think there's 13 characters that could reasonably slot into top tier - the established bunch + Lucario and Lucina.
 

teddystalin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 6, 2015
Messages
156
Location
VT
Honestly, maybe other people have smaller top tiers than I do, but what is it that makes Lucario only high tier while characters like Mewtwo and Marth are accepted as top tier?
1) Buffs. A buff immediately calls attention to a character. If, say, Bowser had started the game with his current up throw, it would have been accepted as matter of fact by now. Kinda cheesy, but well-explored. Buffs (at least, significant ones) attach an X-factor to a character, where you know they've gotten better but rely purely on theory to figure out how much better. I was going through 2014 CCI logs on a lark and it's very funny to see respectable posters talking about high/top tier Shulk and Ike after their 1.0.4 buffs. So people knew Marth/Mewtwo were capable of something better and were thus mentally prepared for any big jump. Lucario has received some changes, but hasn't received the kind of overhaul that would lead to shifting perceptions>

2) Results. Like, a really wide gulf of results between Lucario and Marth/Mewtwo. It's not as though Aba won Pound and then never did anything significant with the character again (and indeed, after Pound many were loathe to call Mewtwo a top tier.) Mewtwo took Aba from a kind of gimmicky threat who could occasionally challenge the best to a clear top 10 player and possible #1 in Japan. Players like Wadi and Rich Brown went from regional threats/relative unknowns to top 25 in the world. And Marth has spearheaded the rise of Pugwest, Mr. E, Fuwa, and of course Leo. They've put in a lot of work! Whereas Lucario has pretty good Japanese results and now 2nd place at an American major, with Tsu being the first ever Lucario to even crack top 8 at an international tournament. People have seen this before: they've seen Ranai, getting 2nd at Genesis 3 and then dropping off the face of the earth; they've seen Kameme, getting 2nd at EVO and failing to make top 8 in the US ever since. Can you really blame people for hedging their bets?

Marth/Mewtwo have obviously strong tools backed by a year of top tier results. Lucario has a far more obtuse toolkit and a good, if inconsistent regional/national record. That's the difference.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
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Um....Lost?
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You know top players would probably come and discuss things here more often if we weren't insulting them half the time.
 
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