The fight between the pro's and casuals end now.

[Smashbros_7]

I admit I was a casual. For years, I played with all items, any stage and believed that ANY character could beat anyone. I thought Link was the best, unbeatable and thought that the tier list was stupid!
The thing is, most casual hate the way pro's play because they're jealous. You see I was jealous! Jealous of Gimpyfish62, jealous of Ken, jealous of all pro's because they were better than me. Most people want Pro's to play with items, because they can identify with them better. (Ex: Gimpyfish62 used Items, cool I do too! We're the same!) We're not. Casual and pro's are different. Another side of Jealousy is anger. I used to make fun of pro's thinking they had NO LIVES, when they do. Casual play is fun for everyone, pro play is still fun, but not for everyone. So what if Ken doesn't play like you, you can still have fun! So what if Luigi is worse than Mario? You can still have fun playing as both of them. And let me tell you a little story... I was using Link against my bro who was good with Fox. It was a close Match Final Destination, no items. In the end we both had 1 life left. A slashed, Fox dodged and killed me. I lost but still found that I did good! You can too. If you like Ness, and your friend is a Marth pro, practice, practice, practice! Ever hear of the yo-yo glicth? A legit technique for Ness users! So what Im trying to say is, if pro's don't want to use FS', there not stupid for doing so. They have their on valid reasons. You not limited to follow others, you can play your friends with FS'
or Island.

 

[Balloon]

Uh.. I like the point you're making.. you just didn't express it all too well.

 

[Smashbros_7]

What? Explain why?

 

[yoshi_fan]

I don't see your point...

Maybe some people might be like you... but only a few.

Casuals are casuals, and tech. players are tech. player (not all tech. players are pros you know... i'm not a pro, but i don't like playing like a casual. But i defend them because is another playstyle like anyone).

I don't think the war will end, unless the people open their minds and let everyone play as they like.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I think I missed the point?

All I got out of that is that you have a respect for competitive play now.

 

[El Cancel]

i like your story.

be proud. you've grown, smashbros7. you've really grown.

 

[Felcis]

The overall message is nice but "jealous" is the wrong word imo. The most "casual players" just don´t care about the official competitive gameplay. And playing with items and without Wavedashing (L-Cancel is another story, as I see it as an automatic reflex in melee, even on "low-level") doesn´t mean you have less ingame depth; it´s just another style of playing with different kind of strategies, mindgames etc. After all items give the game a lot of variation, too...they are just too luck-based for tournaments. :D

 

[veil222]

Aknowledging there are even sides... and calling it a "war" (people die in wars) will only perpetuate this stupid idea that only manifests itself on forums. Alot of people ARE both casual and competitive, almost everyone that plays at my college is like that (100+ people in our tournament scene). The ONLY place you see stupid back and forth bashing like this is on forums where people abuse internet anonymity to be total jerks and not concede to any argument.

 

[SuperRad]

Here's my own little story [you can skip down a bit if you want, this is more to give my point of view some backing i guess]:
I am a fairly casual gamer, except when it comes to smash. However, I got introduced to real competitive gaming through Halo 2. When I first started playing, I read about "Pro Rules" and thought it was stupid. A month later, my friend told me that it was the most fun he had playing the game. People were competitive, yet still were having more fun. I loved it. The competition was fierce and there was drive for me to get better to beat people and to learn teamwork and the like. I ended up quitting H2 after getting bored with the game and the community. It was huge, due to new comers like me and it went from something fun to something so serious that no one was playing the competition for fun anymore.

However, one day, an old friend of mine from H2 sent me a message and he told me he was playing competitive smash. I knew it existed, but I hadn't really seen how it worked. He showed me the FC3 crew battle video, and I fell in love. The game was fun and competitive and the community seemed great. There was trash talking that was in good spirit, there was camaraderie unlike what I had seen from the Halo community.

Before I joined the competitive community, I hadn't played a whole lot of smash except for among my friends years before. So I never knew the other side of the coin when it came to this game.

[Sorry for all the exposition, here's my point]
I've never seen any kind of valid arguement for the casuals point of view. The competitive side is usually "we want to play this game among ourselves, and as long as that is an option we are happy." The casual side seems to often have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. They have something to prove. I don't understand if it's jealousy, ignorance or based on actual bad experience, but they seem to want to control how the competitives play. They don't want the option to turn off items. They don't want the adv techniques to be in the game.

However, both of those dont change how the average person plays. They still play how they want to.

Yet, somehow some casuals (the very vocal ones, atleast) seem to want to pidgeon hole the competitive community into their game. Which seems completely ridiculous.

EDIT: [I've read a couple times from different people that they hate the competitive scene for a bad experience with a single player or a couple players. People they know locally that are all about "ONLY FINAL DESTINATION NO ITEMS" and refuse to play any other way. This isn't a good reason to hate the entire community, but a good reason to not want to play with that one person.]
Also, I want to note that the Smash competitive smash community in norcal is amazing. I've never met anyone who was completely malicious in their actions. All the people I've met have been almost impossibly kind and nice to me ever since day one. On the boards its a little different, but that's another topic.


I hope that someone who considers themself a casual player and is against things like item toggle or the advance techs from melee (meaning that you not only dont use them but want them completely gone) can make a convincing arguement, but so far my experience reading multiple boards has given me none.

 

[OATH]

smash your story moved me (:!

 

[Colenstien]

The fight? Over? I think not!
http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/21921.jpg
(image changed to link)
Come on pros, you're on!!!

 

[Chaosblade77]

I hope that someone who considers themself a casual player and is against things like item toggle or the advance techs from melee (meaning that you not only dont use them but want them completely gone) can make a convincing arguement, but so far my experience reading multiple boards has given me none.

I was going to say something once I saw "someone who considers themself a casual player" because I consider myself a casual player, but you are looking for a good argument against the competitive playstyle, which I don't have.

I wouldn't even try to argue against it because I completely agree that people should play how they choose to, and the rules they have in place make the most sense. Heck, I often play with items off and prefer less dynamic/random stages. However, there are some competitive elitist that call all casual players out "because they suck" and things like that, so it's not one sided.

It's really just two minorities, one from each side, in an argument while the rest of us sit on the sidelines with our faces in our hands in embarrassment.

 

[xeonoex]

There is no good argument against competitive play. Casuals can play how they want and it's stupid for them to tell competitive players how to play when they don't even play competitive.

The "war" should just end with every topic about competitive play being stupid being closed. Along with a witty remark from Mic at the end.

 

[Dojo999]

Here's my own little story [you can skip down a bit if you want, this is more to give my point of view some backing i guess]:
I am a fairly casual gamer, except when it comes to smash. However, I got introduced to real competitive gaming through Halo 2. When I first started playing, I read about "Pro Rules" and thought it was stupid. A month later, my friend told me that it was the most fun he had playing the game. People were competitive, yet still were having more fun. I loved it. The competition was fierce and there was drive for me to get better to beat people and to learn teamwork and the like. I ended up quitting H2 after getting bored with the game and the community. It was huge, due to new comers like me and it went from something fun to something so serious that no one was playing the competition for fun anymore.

However, one day, an old friend of mine from H2 sent me a message and he told me he was playing competitive smash. I knew it existed, but I hadn't really seen how it worked. He showed me the FC3 crew battle video, and I fell in love. The game was fun and competitive and the community seemed great. There was trash talking that was in good spirit, there was camaraderie unlike what I had seen from the Halo community.

Before I joined the competitive community, I hadn't played a whole lot of smash except for among my friends years before. So I never knew the other side of the coin when it came to this game.

[Sorry for all the exposition, here's my point]
I've never seen any kind of valid arguement for the casuals point of view. The competitive side is usually "we want to play this game among ourselves, and as long as that is an option we are happy." The casual side seems to often have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. They have something to prove. I don't understand if it's jealousy, ignorance or based on actual bad experience, but they seem to want to control how the competitives play. They don't want the option to turn off items. They don't want the adv techniques to be in the game.

However, both of those dont change how the average person plays. They still play how they want to.

Yet, somehow some casuals (the very vocal ones, atleast) seem to want to pidgeon hole the competitive community into their game. Which seems completely ridiculous.

EDIT: [I've read a couple times from different people that they hate the competitive scene for a bad experience with a single player or a couple players. People they know locally that are all about "ONLY FINAL DESTINATION NO ITEMS" and refuse to play any other way. This isn't a good reason to hate the entire community, but a good reason to not want to play with that one person.]
Also, I want to note that the Smash competitive smash community in norcal is amazing. I've never met anyone who was completely malicious in their actions. All the people I've met have been almost impossibly kind and nice to me ever since day one. On the boards its a little different, but that's another topic.


I hope that someone who considers themself a casual player and is against things like item toggle or the advance techs from melee (meaning that you not only dont use them but want them completely gone) can make a convincing arguement, but so far my experience reading multiple boards has given me none.

I disagree. I think in an argument between pros and casuals, the casuals usually seem to be defending the game itself, while pros defend the techniques. Every time a pro suspects something to be a little off with the game, he goes off and says that the game is **** and Sakurai is a jerk. Casuals take up the shield to protect them because we care about the game. Judging by the way pros talk they realy don't give a **** about the game and would drop it if the same adv. techs were applied somewhere else. They're not saying pro play sucks, they're not trying to control how anyone else plays. It just seems that pro players are much more abusive to the game and the work thats gone into it then others.

Quick tip: I consider myself not pro or casual, I swing both ways. But one thing I cant stand is underappreciation for awesome games. Also I rarely have a real opinion on any subject. I will jump on either side of an argument just whenever I think of a point for that side. Point is, game is great. Pro, casual, your gonna like it no matter what so why fight?

 

[Soviet]

who cares?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I actually wish to challenge some of the mods around here. I want to see how I can match up to them.

 

[SuperRad]

I disagree. I think in an argument between pros and casuals, the casuals usually seem to be defending the game itself, while pros defend the techniques. Every time a pro suspects something to be a little off with the game, he goes off and says that the game is **** and Sakurai is a jerk. Casuals take up the shield to protect them because we care about the game. Judging by the way pros talk they realy don't give a **** about the game and would drop it if the same adv. techs were applied somewhere else. They're not saying pro play sucks, they're not trying to control how anyone else plays. It just seems that pro players are much more abusive to the game and the work thats gone into it then others.

Quick tip: I consider myself not pro or casual, I swing both ways. But one thing I cant stand is underappreciation for awesome games. Also I rarely have a real opinion on any subject. I will jump on either side of an argument just whenever I think of a point for that side. Point is, game is great. Pro, casual, your gonna like it no matter what so why fight?

I was talking about melee, because i basically refuse judgment of brawl until i play it myself. and if you haven't seen casuals attacking the pro playstyle, consider yourself lucky. I, like Chaosblade77, find myself being embarrassed for them.

 

[QDVS]

I actually wish to challenge some of the mods around here. I want to see how I can match up to them.

Sure, i'll play you sometime!!!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

When I say play, I mean Brawl not Melee.

 

[KaiserX]

TL;DR "I exploit the game by using glitches to win and that makes me better at it! I used to have some kind of conscience of this, but I whored out so I could be better!"

Queue Dylan_Tnga with the "Play To Win" article, because well written OBVIOUSLY is the same thing as fact.

My rationale behind hated of most "pro" gamers is they're playing the game in a way that the creators never intended for it to function in the first place and are ruining most of the fun appeal by cutting out half of the game's content and trivializing another quarter of it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

who cares?

We do.

I disagree. I think in an argument between pros and casuals, the casuals usually seem to be defending the game itself, while pros defend the techniques. Every time a pro suspects something to be a little off with the game, he goes off and says that the game is **** and Sakurai is a jerk. Casuals take up the shield to protect them because we care about the game. Judging by the way pros talk they realy don't give a **** about the game and would drop it if the same adv. techs were applied somewhere else. They're not saying pro play sucks, they're not trying to control how anyone else plays. It just seems that pro players are much more abusive to the game and the work thats gone into it then others.

Quick tip: I consider myself not pro or casual, I swing both ways. But one thing I cant stand is underappreciation for awesome games. Also I rarely have a real opinion on any subject. I will jump on either side of an argument just whenever I think of a point for that side. Point is, game is great. Pro, casual, your gonna like it no matter what so why fight?

Well, sometimes that's the case, but the majority of Casual vs. Competative (the word Pro should be reserved for actual Pros) are
Casual-"Who cares if wavedashing is not in brawl. Now we've just leveled the playing field. If you can't beat us without advance techs you suck.
Competative-"Advance techs added more depth to the game. The game will get boring without them after only a few months and it won't be a competative game"

That's the gear that the arguements have currently shifted too (I should know, because I'm in a few of them.) Neither side is right IMO. The casuals don't realize that competative players will still beat them without advance techs because they simply have been playing competatively so long, and will still devote much more time to the game. Competative players on the other hand, will spend that much time and then feel that time was wasted because they think they'll hit a wall. They'll run out of things to practice and their improvement will slow down dramatically.

I really think advance techs are a really good thing for a competative game. Thing is, competative players improve much, much faster than casual players, so advance techniques are like a giant extension of replay value. A game is no fun once you've unlocked every aspect of it, so advance techniques let us have something unbelivably high to shoot for. Just look at the Perfect Control videos. Then look at Zelghandi. When we first saw perfect control, we thought "there's no way anyone will ever be able to pull that off." Well a little whlile later, people started practicing with that as their goal. Competative players now had frame perfection as their ceiling and they strived for it. Some people (Silent Wolf, Dashizwiz, M2K) are suprizingly close to that goal now.

Casual players would then often say we have no lives (not all casual players. There have indeed been a few on these boards that let us do what we want without hassel), that our way of play is not how smash was meant to be played. Heck, a lot of people don't even consider Smash a fighter, but no one can deny that smash has a fairly large competative community. I think that these Casual vs. Competative problems arise because of just that. Casuals think that smash was never meant to be a competative game. But whether it was supposed to be a competative fighter or not isn't the issue. The fact is that it is one, and that the competative scene really is a different side of smash. Our views differ so greatly on so many issues, and thus we have conflict. It is not in human nature to be tolerant of something you disagree with, and with the annonymosity of the internet, no one has to be politically correct, or fake a smile and say nice things. The fights will never actually stop, but hopefully they will simply be suppressed more quickly in the future.

 

[draigaran]

Lulz. Casuals can be haters, techies can be spoiled. The pointless banter will die away after a while (definitely not immediately). Right now people just don't want to leave others alone, but as the GFAQers/passersby eventually go away, there will be more respect around here.

"<blehnus>In my experiece, any attempt to make any system idiot proof will only challenge God to make a better idiot"

I might just use that as my sig.

 

[Dark Sonic]

TL;DR "I exploit the game by using glitches to win and that makes me better at it! I used to have some kind of conscience of this, but I whored out so I could be better!"

Queue Dylan_Tnga with the "Play To Win" article, because well written OBVIOUSLY is the same thing as fact.

My rationale behind hated of most "pro" gamers is they're playing the game in a way that the creators never intended for it to function in the first place and are ruining most of the fun appeal by cutting out half of the game's content and trivializing another quarter of it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Who are you to say what the game was meant to play like? Who are you to say that we weren't supposed to use the item toggle feature, or the customizable random stage selection? Who are you to say that we weren't supposed to use L-canceling, or wavedashing, which were intentionally put in the game? Wavedashing even had a name. The it was the special land fall. It had a program that determined how far you would slide based on the momentum you had at the time. So putting two techniques together to make a new one makes it a glitch? Who are you to say what the creators intended? Who are you to tell me what "fun" is?

That's exactly the kind of attitude that will bring the flames of war upon these boards?

 

[SuperRad]

TL;DR "I exploit the game by using glitches to win and that makes me better at it! I used to have some kind of conscience of this, but I whored out so I could be better!"

Queue Dylan_Tnga with the "Play To Win" article, because well written OBVIOUSLY is the same thing as fact.

My rationale behind hated of most "pro" gamers is they're playing the game in a way that the creators never intended for it to function in the first place and are ruining most of the fun appeal by cutting out half of the game's content and trivializing another quarter of it.

wait, so you dont like me playing the way i want to because.... it ruins the fun for you?
think about that for a second. I'm not saying YOU have to play the way I do. I'm saying that I play how I want to and it's totally fine. nobody is saying "play this way or don't play at all" they are saying "we play like this because we have MORE fun this way".

As on the unintended aspect, are you trying to tell me L-Canceling was unintentional in melee? Cause there was z-canceling in 64 and they could've taken out L-Canceling from melee if they wanted to. (apparently they didnt like it for brawl so they did remove it). I'll give you wavedashing, I guess, although I find it hard to believe that through testing not once did someone air dodge into the ground and notice the effect it had. They wouldn't have been able to see the scope, but that's kind of a moot point right now.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'll give you wavedashing, I guess, although I find it hard to believe that through testing not once did someone air dodge into the ground and notice the effect it had. They wouldn't have been able to see the scope, but that's kind of a moot point right now.

They did find it. It's called the special land fall. They even knew that you would slide if you had any momentum when you did this. They just never put 2 and 2 together (an airdodge that changes you momentum, and a landing animation that lets you slide with only 12 frames of lag. Hmm...)

 

[MK-Ultra]

There is no good argument against competitive play. Casuals can play how they want and it's stupid for them to tell competitive players how to play when they don't even play competitive.

The "war" should just end with every topic about competitive play being stupid being closed. Along with a witty remark from Mic at the end.

That wont stop "competitive" players from being condescending to the casuals. Class war will only end with the elimination of classes. The two can not co-exist.

 

[draigaran]

That wont stop "competitive" players from being condescending to the casuals. Class war will only end with the elimination of classes. The two can not co-exist.

Yeahhhh, politics. George Washington, in his farewell address, warned us not to form political parties. Ignoring that warning was inevitable. Casuals and competitives will never mesh, but we can just stop nagging each other about how the game is supposed to be played. But of course, because of the internet, there will always be haters...

 

[pika-power]

TL;DR "I exploit the game by using glitches to win and that makes me better at it! I used to have some kind of conscience of this, but I whored out so I could be better!"

The thing is, everyone has access to these glitches. It is about who uses them the best. You make it sound like the Techs are easy to pull off, and are an instant win button.

They are not!

Sure it gives players who can use them an advantage over those who can't. But this is in all games. Some players can pull of strategies, some can't.

Queue Dylan_Tnga with the "Play To Win" article, because well written OBVIOUSLY is the same thing as fact.

My rationale behind hated of most "pro" gamers is they're playing the game in a way that the creators never intended for it to function in the first place and are ruining most of the fun appeal by cutting out half of the game's content and trivializing another quarter of it.

Okay, the creators did not intend to make it. So what? They made the game, the buyers can do what they want with it. They can use it as a frisbee for all you should care.

As for the cutting out of half of the game's content, they are not forcing you to do this! Play how you want. I can equally say that you are cutting out half of the game's content by ignoring advanced Techniques.

 

[KaiserX]

The thing is, everyone has access to these glitches. It is about who uses them the best. You make it sound like the Techs are easy to pull off, and are an instant win button.

They are not!

Sure it gives players who can use them an advantage over those who can't. But this is in all games. Some players can pull of strategies, some can't.

That's great. : |

It doesn't really change it secularizes who's effective and who isn't and pretty much manipulates the foundation of the game to be something it isn't supposed to be.

Okay, the creators did not intend to make it. So what? They made the game, the buyers can do what they want with it. They can use it as a frisbee for all you should care.

Because a large part of the creation of the game that you wait 2 years for is balance. You implement some new mechanics or some new glitch that makes X or Y character more effective and you just trivialized it.

It's also the BS people cut out that makes me more annoyed than what they put in anyway. Namely, the removal of all items and half the stages.

Which you addressed here:

As for the cutting out of half of the game's content, they are not forcing you to do this! Play how you want. I can equally say that you are cutting out half of the game's content by ignoring advanced Techniques.

Ok, it blows when you get an explosive container and it throws off your groove and some terribad player gets a KO over you. Whatever. That doesn't change that if you turn off more than half the **** game, what the hell is the point of playing Smash in the first place? Play a completely different fighting game that was made to be competitive in the first place. This is a fighting party game. It takes skill, but it's also not hugely designed around being competitive, just entertaining fan service.

"But Kaiser, you're calling the kettle black! I mean, you're criticizing our way of playing when in fact you are peddling your own way of playing!"

Not exactly. I'll accept your way of playing when I see competitive tournaments that allow all stages and items and don't involve a bunch of Koreans being jerks and calculating their moves down to the amount of frames they have to do some crazy new glitch that gives a mass advantage.

It just takes a product that is very fun and makes it sour to me. There wouldn't be a war if people just played what's there, enjoy it, and stop making it so **** much about winning.

This "Play To Win" article I see floating around, in particular, was also peddled to me by a guild officer in a former WoW guild. And I still can't look at it without facepalming because basically what it's proposing is to say "EFF IT" to some poor coder's work and completely throw crap aside just to be good at something designed ostensibly to amuse. Competition's wonderful, just stop breaking **** just to have it.

EDIT:

wait, so you dont like me playing the way i want to because.... it ruins the fun for you?
think about that for a second. I'm not saying YOU have to play the way I do. I'm saying that I play how I want to and it's totally fine. nobody is saying "play this way or don't play at all" they are saying "we play like this because we have MORE fun this way".

Ok. See above about tournaments being opened that allow everything.

As on the unintended aspect, are you trying to tell me L-Canceling was unintentional in melee? Cause there was z-canceling in 64 and they could've taken out L-Canceling from melee if they wanted to. (apparently they didnt like it for brawl so they did remove it). I'll give you wavedashing, I guess, although I find it hard to believe that through testing not once did someone air dodge into the ground and notice the effect it had. They wouldn't have been able to see the scope, but that's kind of a moot point right now.

Here's how I see it: if it's not in the manual/Dojo/any first party material, it's probably not fair game. There's some exceptions, but as a whole, it's severely constraining to see some strangeness pulled out of something and have to say "well...uh...was that fair?"

It's just extra annoying when people give me this "WHO CARES IF IT'S FAIR? LIVE TO WIIIIIN" crap.

 

[draigaran]

That's great. : |

That doesn't change that if you turn off more than half the **** game, what the hell is the point of playing Smash in the first place? Play a completely different fighting game that was made to be competitive in the first place. This is a fighting party game. It takes skill, but it's also not hugely designed around being competitive, just entertaining fan service.

I'm sure there are places where casual smashers can chill. Convince your friends to casually smash with you. Otherwise, tournies will keep banning stages because tournies focus on player skill alone. To competitive players, implementing AT is fun because it is challenging. You think it's cheap, that's okay. Don't attend the tournies you don't agree with. If there were tournies that turned on items, I just.. wouldn't go. You don't need to play with competitive players, and nor do you want to, so what is the difference?

 

[MK-Ultra]

Yeahhhh, politics. George Washington, in his farewell address, warned us not to form political parties. Ignoring that warning was inevitable. Casuals and competitives will never mesh, but we can just stop nagging each other about how the game is supposed to be played. But of course, because of the internet, there will always be haters...

<than3

10 churr.

 

[KaiserX]

I'm sure there are places where casual smashers can chill. Convince your friends to casually smash with you. Otherwise, tournies will keep banning stages because tournies focus on player skill alone. To competitive players, implementing AT is fun because it is challenging. You think it's cheap, that's okay. Don't attend the tournies you don't agree with. If there were tournies that turned on items, I just.. wouldn't go. You don't need to play with competitive players, and nor do you want to, so what is the difference?

Some people think that skill can be an element of avoiding some of the "unfair" elements of certain levels or items and therefore can coexist with competitive play.

That's what I mean. :/

 

[eet]

it doesnt really matter...

in time the casuals will forget about the game like they did melee, and the "pro" players will keep playing because they enjoy it that way. besides, the pros will just **** the non-technical item noobs in any medium of play >>' (unless some ridiculous item variation happens...)

 

[Maikeru17]

i like your story.

be proud. you've grown, smashbros7. you've really grown.

QFT


TENCHARSLOL

 

[Layupfreak]

lol okay dont cry

 

[Zant3tsuken]

While I consider myself a casual smasher, in that I'm really bothered to learn the AT required to play competitively, I'm very much on the wavelength of Sonic Wave, thus when I read opinions reflected like KaiserX it irritates me. Smash's competitive scene is one derived of an audience totally different to groups of people playing Street Fighter games and more traditional fighters in arcades, and it's obvious that he doesn't see the value in nurturing the hardcore portion of Melee's gameplay.

This does highlight a large flaw in Melee though. In a more hardcore fighting game the learning curve is a lot more deliberate. Take for example Guilty Gear, which is built on the controls of the street fighter mold. The game in a lot of ways is about spending tension (super bar). As you progressively get better at the game you find more ways of becoming proficient with spending it. Initially you probably simply use them for supers but later on when you learn exact timing of moves it's more efficient to use it to extend combos or keep pressure up (FRCs, won't go into it here). The important thing here though is that as you become better with tech, more options open up to you.

Of course Guilty Gear is a hardcore game. Melee can be very much a party game and covers a much larger spectrum of skilled and unskilled, which ultimately makes Melees greatest strength also it's biggest failure. Melee has no way of easing casual players into the hardcore frame of mind, something made that much harder when the basic skills required are much less than a traditional fighting game. Whats worse is that advanced techniques are being used in a way that appears unorthodox or unnatural to the untrained eye, and these people reject it, where they should be impressed and want to learn it themselves. The fact also that some of the tech is not intended (wavedashing), and some tech simply seems unnecessary (l canceling), doesn't help in the slightest. Basically... Guilty Gear... impressive combos/traps/whatever. Melee = characters bunny short hopping and sliding around everywhere. Yeah it's superficial to a pro, but it's important nonetheless.

Thats it in a nutshell. What Kaiser says about Smash being a party fighting game is absolute rubbish, and will be even for Brawl, even if the game lacks tech. I think seeing the difference between NTSC and PAL versions of Melee prove that Nintendo pay great attention between competitive balance of it's characters (shiek nerfed chain throw, fox nerfed up smash/air), and while they may not market the game to the hardcore, it is certainly designed with both ends of the spectrum in mind. The fact that Melee ended up being more technical than was intended is irrelevant.

 

[DraginHikari]

This is a bit long but hey:

To be honset there are two distinctly different fear I take notice of between teh casual and the competitive... and I use those terms loosely because they've become too quick to sterotype... what do I mean mostly because no one has ever come up with a common ground on where the line between Casual and Competitve is solidly drawn.

Unlike most I do believe there is some middle ground where argeement can be reached but there is something to take into account: The far end Casuals are not on this board or care about the competitive existance for the most part because they play when they feel like it and that it. They're not watching the Dojo nor waiting for a year for this game. So the stereotype for those casuals doesn't fit the aspect of those on this board at all.

At the same time, I've noticed that many of the big name players don't tend to post here on a regular basis from what I've witnessed or at least I don't seen them in the competitive Vs. Casual thing to an extent. There are some but not as many as you'd think.

The middle ground are usually people who can see reasoning and logically point out what they think without resorting to insults or stereotypes or people that tend to remain Neutral.

Much of the hot-headness from both sides are those on the edge of the middle ground. These are the people who commonly tend to be one-sided towards their viewpoint or some will resort to insults or stereotypes, or do little more then point out the same points over and over.

As far as I mentioned about fears I see the fear of the unknown from Casual and a fear of change from competitive as the main source of alot of the strife

The fact is that people these days willl use ignorance to excuse alot of things, many dumb things get excused because they aren't aware or they didn't know what they were doing. It's not really all that different, people will hate things they don't understand or fear what they might find out. This fear causes people to consider something wrong or incorrect without facts and will tell themselves it's true even when reasoning is presented, which is what opposition will do, the problem is that people who use ignornace tend to be stubborn and never take others opinions into consideration. Some people really don't wish to know the whole truth about the subject, it's sad but true.

My issue with this mindset, simply it seems far too basic, it's too easy to excuse something as a flaw or a glitch to excuse the fact I cannot play a game as well as someone else. It just shows an unwilliningness to learn and an excuse not to think. Really if you are casual... should you even care about the competitive at all?

As far as the competitive are considered there is a pattern over the fear of change. The Advance Techinque arugement as well as the state of Smash Boards itself seem to be the root of most of this end. The competitive have had the same setting and techinques for a long time now and much of that appears to be changing in brawls, Humans in general don't adapt to change in the easiest manner since we react with stress. But the problem with that is people tend ot react to Pessimsitic issues with even more pessmistic issuees. The other issue does involve the attitude displayed, though it is not always intended, many competitives display wording or methods which suggest to people unfamiliar with the scene as an 'holier then thou' attitude and the constant use of the terms 'n00b' and 'scrub' only seem to enhance this feeling of issues.

Just like the ignorance causal I do have my own opinon towards the difficultly changing competitive. From what I've seen the majority of the competitive handle themselves well in arugments but there are many still that don't. Honsety I really don't care how good you are a game, but some of attitudes displayed by some here I am no more impressed with then the other side of the issue. And some of the competitive are far too defensive when it comes down to anything that they feel it's wrong. Take it easy and let some things go and it would be far easier on alot of people.

Being fairly neutral on most things, I don't tend to takes sides on issues and I don't believe either side is completely right on the issue, but as stated before these are mere opinions. I don't expect them to ever fully get along but after many months of this back and forth issue it's becoming rather repetitive.

 

[ripman3]

it doesnt really matter...

in time the casuals will forget about the game like they did melee, and the "pro" players will keep playing because they enjoy it that way.)

Idk, I'm technically a "casual" smasher (I don't use fully incorporate any techs into my fighting except for an occasional l-cancel), but i still play melee every day with my friends. There's something about Smash that never gets old, and I think there will always be casual players out there who simply don't think its necessary or worth it to learn advanced techniques for any number of reasons.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

I'd consider myself a 'casual' player based on the fact that I use items, and play on nearly any stage (except Flat Zone ). However, I can hold my own against many of the pro players at my university... I'm pretty good with advanced techs, too.

I just dislike the Pro's hatred of items... I know that games can be lost by the infamous 'appearing Bob-omb,' but the items open up a lot of new strategy. It just annoys me that, when I want to play really good people (aside from one or two of my friends), I have to play with them off.

Other than that, I've got no problem with the "pro" lifestyle.

 

[S2]

I admit I was a casual. For years, I played with all items, any stage and believed that ANY character could beat anyone. I thought Link was the best, unbeatable and thought that the tier list was stupid!
The thing is, most casual hate the way pro's play because they're jealous. You see I was jealous! Jealous of Gimpyfish62, jealous of Ken, jealous of all pro's because they were better than me. Most people want Pro's to play with items, because they can identify with them better. (Ex: Gimpyfish62 used Items, cool I do too! We're the same!) We're not. Casual and pro's are different. Another side of Jealousy is anger. I used to make fun of pro's thinking they had NO LIVES, when they do. Casual play is fun for everyone, pro play is still fun, but not for everyone. So what if Ken doesn't play like you, you can still have fun! So what if Luigi is worse than Mario? You can still have fun playing as both of them. And let me tell you a little story... I was using Link against my bro who was good with Fox. It was a close Match Final Destination, no items. In the end we both had 1 life left. A slashed, Fox dodged and killed me. I lost but still found that I did good! You can too. If you like Ness, and your friend is a Marth pro, practice, practice, practice! Ever hear of the yo-yo glicth? A legit technique for Ness users! So what Im trying to say is, if pro's don't want to use FS', there not stupid for doing so. They have their on valid reasons. You not limited to follow others, you can play your friends with FS'
or Island.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the jealous thing. While some players get inspired by pros to get better, others simply backlash because they aren't that good. Some simply don't want to have to practice to get good, but with any competitive game it really comes down to skill and mindgames. Tournament players simply practice and play to get better when they play, since its very possible to play a ton but not improve if your aren't playing smart.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with playing items or choosing the stages you like. Smash is about playing how you like. Tournament rules exist because they are the most fair. They were developed over several years in order to find a way that made the playing feel the most skill based as possible. That doesn't meaning removing random elements, but parts of the game that were clearly broken at high level play.

And yes, tournament players will use items and play FFAs from time to time. Its not that those modes aren't fun, just not good for tournaments (ie when money is on the line).

The tier list on the other hand is fact. All fighters have a tier list, whether it is recorded or not. It only applies to high level play, so casuals really shouldn't sweat about it too much. The people debating the tier lists are the best players out there with the most tournament experience; they are quite qualified to debate it and not everyone agrees on exact placements.