The DK Match-Up Discussion

[Takehiko]

So I saw this in the Lil Mac thread, so I wanted to add it here.
Top Questions:
1. Who do you think will be DK's easiest matchups? And why?
2. Who do you think will be DK's worst matchups? And why?
3. Will the FD stages better or worsen DK match ups?

 

[itsaxelol]

characters with no combo and camping game
characters that can combo and camp him easily
worsen, dk likes platflorms

 

[Takehiko]

So do you think that Lil Mac or MM will among those good matchups?

 

[itsaxelol]

mega man will probably be annoying with his projectiles and size

macs size and power might be an issue but the fact we can cargo him off stage is going to be huge

 

[RomanceDawn]

If Brawl is anything to go by, characters with many projectiles will be his worst match ups.

There was a guy who went by 2Quick in Brawl and his ZSS was lethal to my DK. That paralyzer destroyed me in ways that even King Dedede couldn't.

I just hope big characters have a way to deal with the constant barrage of boomerangs, bombs, arrows and energy blasts.

 

[Aninymouse]

Dude, let's hope Smash 4 sees a resurgence of competitive DK players. PM has a few, and Melee had a few, but really... so many people gave up on him, due to his polarized matchups.

I hate to take Sakurai at his word, that DK is so strong that they "might have to nerf him," but it does give me some hope. DK was my best Melee character. Even though I'm a nobody, I wouldn't mind becoming a somebody in Smash 4. I can't see maining any characters over DK and Mewtwo, for me.

 

[Takehiko]

Dude, let's hope Smash 4 sees a resurgence of competitive DK players. PM has a few, and Melee had a few, but really... so many people gave up on him, due to his polarized matchups.

I hate to take Sakurai at his word, that DK is so strong that they "might have to nerf him," but it does give me some hope. DK was my best Melee character. Even though I'm a nobody, I wouldn't mind becoming a somebody in Smash 4. I can't see maining any characters over DK and Mewtwo, for me.

Well you and me both. I'm either going to do Trainer or DK. What stopped me from using DK in Brawl was that his moves have so much lag on them that it made it unbearable to use and it prevented me from being able to use him effectivelly

 

[Aninymouse]

Going back to your OP question... I've been out of Melee for too long to remember how all the matchups go for DK. I know the popular meme a while ago was that he did really well against space animals in general, but terrible against sword characters. I never played Brawl for anything more than party game status, so I have no concept for how that might have changed for that iteration.

But assuming DK still had issues with being zoned out by characters with disjointed hitboxes, and still had a lot of trouble getting punished and juggled, the devs have their work cut out for them in patching up DK for Smash 4. DK doesn't have to be good against the whole cast, but he shouldn't be mediocre at best against the whole cast, either.

I have a lot of hope in the new dashing roll attack. I've only seen it from the front, and I've yet to see it hit anyone, but if they did it right, it has the potential to allow DK a solid grounded approach, facing forward. That's pretty huge. I'm pretty sure all of DK's aerials have been shown at one point or another, though I can't recall seeing them all, but if they put some range and power and/or armor on Nair, I would love that. Bair approaches are fine, but it's so predictable and easily dealt with after a while. DK does well playing defensively against non-projectile characters to an extent, but going offensive and closing that gap is hard for DK. I never did any short hop Dairs with DK, but if his stomp worked kinda more like Ganon's stomp, that would be a fun punishing tool out of shield.

DK has long arms. I think giving him a tad more range on moves that aren't Giant Punch would be great. Ftilt and Dtilt, for instance, I could see being good for reaching out past DK's usual range, but they have issues. Ftilt doesn't really do anything to help set you up, and it has some lag. Dtilt comes out moderately fast, but it's such a pathetic poke that all it really does is psyche out your opponent. If the person you're playing has a strong mind, Dtilt seems too weak to do much. I seem to remember that DK has a lot of moves that are easily punishable due to ending lag. Fair is fine for edge guarding at times, for instance, but the lag on that thing is so stupid. The delay is also really counter-intuitive for the person using DK, which only serves to help the person playing against him.

 

[GOofyGV]

Going back to your OP question... I've been out of Melee for too long to remember how all the matchups go for DK. I know the popular meme a while ago was that he did really well against space animals in general, but terrible against sword characters. I never played Brawl for anything more than party game status, so I have no concept for how that might have changed for that iteration.

But assuming DK still had issues with being zoned out by characters with disjointed hitboxes, and still had a lot of trouble getting punished and juggled, the devs have their work cut out for them in patching up DK for Smash 4. DK doesn't have to be good against the whole cast, but he shouldn't be mediocre at best against the whole cast, either.

I have a lot of hope in the new dashing roll attack. I've only seen it from the front, and I've yet to see it hit anyone, but if they did it right, it has the potential to allow DK a solid grounded approach, facing forward. That's pretty huge. I'm pretty sure all of DK's aerials have been shown at one point or another, though I can't recall seeing them all, but if they put some range and power and/or armor on Nair, I would love that. Bair approaches are fine, but it's so predictable and easily dealt with after a while. DK does well playing defensively against non-projectile characters to an extent, but going offensive and closing that gap is hard for DK. I never did any short hop Dairs with DK, but if his stomp worked kinda more like Ganon's stomp, that would be a fun punishing tool out of shield.

DK has long arms. I think giving him a tad more range on moves that aren't Giant Punch would be great. Ftilt and Dtilt, for instance, I could see being good for reaching out past DK's usual range, but they have issues. Ftilt doesn't really do anything to help set you up, and it has some lag. Dtilt comes out moderately fast, but it's such a pathetic poke that all it really does is psyche out your opponent. If the person you're playing has a strong mind, Dtilt seems too weak to do much. I seem to remember that DK has a lot of moves that are easily punishable due to ending lag. Fair is fine for edge guarding at times, for instance, but the lag on that thing is so stupid. The delay is also really counter-intuitive for the person using DK, which only serves to help the person playing against him.

Dk in brawl was ok for most part. The thing is that he had -2 mu's in general against top tier characters like MK, IC's, Diddy kong and -3 against Olimar. His Chaingrab problem vs dedede was the worst part though. It went as far as poeple using their random D3s against the ape

 

[Aninymouse]

Dk in brawl was ok for most part. The thing is that he had -2 mu's in general against top tier characters like MK, IC's, Diddy kong and -3 against Olimar. His Chaingrab problem vs dedede was the worst part though. It went as far as poeple using their random D3s against the ape

D3 had chaingrabs that were really easy to do, if what I'm told about Brawl is true. It wasn't just vs. DK, from what I've heard.

WEDNESDAY I'll finally get to play as DK I'm no Smash genius, but maybe I can shed some light on this subject... I'm tired of baseless conjecture.

 

[GOofyGV]

D3 had chaingrabs that were really easy to do, if what I'm told about Brawl is true. It wasn't just vs. DK, from what I've heard.

WEDNESDAY I'll finally get to play as DK I'm no Smash genius, but maybe I can shed some light on this subject... I'm tired of baseless conjecture.

I wish I could play Sucks to live in Europe

as for King dedede in brawl. Yes he had chaingrabs on most of the cast but in dk's case he was able to infinite him which he could only do to 5 characters including dk. the others being Mario, Luigi, Samus and I believe Bowser to.

 

[Aninymouse]

Wow, sounds terrible. Let's hope they pay more attention to 1vs1 balance in this version of Smash. Brawl definitely got sloppy in that regard. In 64, cheap tricks like that aren't as big of a deal, since most characters are that way. If everyone's overpowered, nobody is, really.

 

[Takehiko]

Since some time has passed and we've gotten the chance to play the game and see some more information on it. Have your thoughts considering the match up stayed the same or are they different?

 

[Veggi]

I think Shiek will be horrible against DK because of her ftilt and DK's lack of DI. I think Little Mac will be bad against DK because of DK's ability to control the ground, outrange him, and use cargo throw to put him in bad spots. I don't there are any stages that really ruin DK, but Final Destination isn't usually a good stage for him. It doesn't hurt him exactly, it's just that most other stages benefit him.

 

[Renji64]

DK is gonna have alot of bad match ups but i'm not giving up on him.

 

[Takehiko]

I think Shiek will be horrible against DK because of her ftilt and DK's lack of DI. I think Little Mac will be bad against DK because of DK's ability to control the ground, outrange him, and use cargo throw to put him in bad spots. I don't there are any stages that really ruin DK, but Final Destination isn't usually a good stage for him. It doesn't hurt him exactly, it's just that most other stages benefit him.

Would you think that Sheik's new addition of a projectile (i.e. Grenade explosion) would be something that would affect him negatively?

Personally, that and the bouncing fish giving her that distance looks like something that would be of danger.

With lil mac, I agree with you. I'm just wondering if there will be something that people will find out about himt hat will boost him up. ONE of the things that I wonder about with him is that his fast feet and counter could be something to watch out for. And it might be something that they can use in the air also. O_O

 

[Veggi]

Would you think that Sheik's new addition of a projectile (i.e. Grenade explosion) would be something that would affect him negatively?

Personally, that and the bouncing fish giving her that distance looks like something that would be of danger.

With lil mac, I agree with you. I'm just wondering if there will be something that people will find out about himt hat will boost him up. ONE of the things that I wonder about with him is that his fast feet and counter could be something to watch out for. And it might be something that they can use in the air also. O_O

I feel like her new side b will be useable against DK but it won't be matchup changing. I feel like it would mostly be useful as a counter to DK's down b, but I doubt DK players will use that move much in the match up because Sheik doesn't usually approach from the ground. I haven't seen much of Sheik's new side b though.

I don't think Little Mac is a bad character at all! I just think with the way DK's ground game works, ground based characters will always have a problem with him because of DK's range and down b specifically. There aren't many ground based characters in Smash though.

 

[Takehiko]

Ah that gives me comfort then to know someone thinks that it won't be bad. Maybe it could go like how Bowser was Vs. Sheik.

Oh, hmm. I like that. Since Ftilt, Dtilt looks better then I could see where you're coming from.

This kinda bugs me too even though she's going to be my other main.

 

[Flamemaster96]

I've mained him for years and I want to know this info

Also, what is his matchup against Bowser, Little Mac, Duck Hunt & Pac-Man?

 

[Kidney Thief]

Too early to know. you should wait at least a month for these questions

 

[LuK2N]

I could tell you that DK has trouble with with little Mac in certain situations other then that DK beats little Mac free!

 

[Neon!]

I'm curious to see how DK does against MK, Olimar and ZSS now since those were some of his worst matchups in Brawl.

 

[Aninymouse]

Already have a thread for this

Literally just scroll down on the DK page.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I'm curious to see how DK does against MK, Olimar and ZSS now since those were some of his worst matchups in Brawl.

This here. Well MK was everyone's worst match up lol. Still I can already see ZSS wrecking big characters for years to come. High level Samus and Link oddly enough could be very tough for a DK player as well. Characters with a lot of projectiles seem to get in his way heavily. I'm looking forward to how things develop.

 

[Luigi player]

Will was doing fine against ZSS'...

It could still be a difficult MU for DK seeing as she's still a top tier character (at least it seems that way atm).
MK is probably not as bad anymore from the looks of it, Olimar should be easier too with less pikmincamp.

But we'll see.

 

[IsmaR]

Already have a thread for this

Literally just scroll down on the DK page.

I'll be merging and cleaning up a lot of the excess threads once my shift ends. For now please continue the discussion there.

 

[Neon!]

After the game has been out for a while and we have a decent understanding of his matchups I'll make another infographic for us like I did for brawl:

http://smashboards.com/threads/dks-matchup-barrels-currently-discussing-olimar.330169/

 

[A2ZOMG]

You might want to think hard about the Robin matchup at some point. My intuition suggests he pretty much trolls large characters by design once he throws out Elfire, preventing you from fighting him on the ground easily.

 

[LuK2N]

I'm going to have Will do a write up tonight when he comes over and what he thinks about DK in smash 4 and match ups. He will be playing Vinnie and possibly Dabuz tonight.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

Personally I've found that Ness is pretty good vs DK.

 

[Jaedrik]

Projectiles seem to have been blanket nerfed, so it seems that DK will have less issues this time around.
He does so much damage, and all his aesthetics pop, so I'd say he's going to be up there this time.
His strengths are definitely against slower and shorter range characters who struggle to get in.
His weakness seems to be against the quick ones, who can get in on him.
Then again, I'm a scrub.

 

[DK-RULES]

Anyone find good tips versus duck hunt? So far he is the only one I have trouble with. Even with a crappy player, that can is hard to get around effectively.

 

[Prawn]

Been playing a ton of DK. If you're having trouble in a matchup that you get camped in you gotta explore their projectiles and know them like the back of your hand. Always been that way for no projectile characters.

I think DK struggles pretty bad against sheik, greninja pacman and ZSS

 

[DK-RULES]

I've gotten better against Duck Hunt with more practice time. Still super annoying, but it can be overcome.

I got hit with something nasty yesterday. This may not be unique to just DK, but I had someone play with Lucina. As I was trying to UP B recover back onto the stage, they just dropped off the stage and performed the reversal on me. There was absolutely nothing I could think of to overcome this. If I was recovering high it's fine, but when I am recovering from far away and I am landing near or on the ledge, he just reads it easily and does a Down B to reverse me coming in. Anything thoughts on that?

 

[Will_]

Mix up your recovery, you can hold upB or even stall in place with it to avoid the active frames of the counter.

On topic, Zss is probably DK's worst matchup. I don't like gren either. Rosa/shiek aren't as bad but you still have to outplay them more than they have to outplay you.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

What do I even DO against Villager with the counter-tree or whatever? Approaching him seems nearly impossible. The only success I've had is on moving stages, where I spend 90% of the time just waiting for the tree to make like one and leave.

 

[shoops]

Couple things I picked up from playing DK for the first time online:

• Fast fall N-Air is godly
• DK's dash attack nullifies ZSS's stun gun
• His up tilt is awesome against light weights

Just picked him up and honestly I've been bopping people pretty hard.

 

[Chief Chili]

ZSS is pretty terrible for DK in my experience.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

Villager is very good vs DK. Not very many ways you can get in vs him and if you do get in it won't be for very long

 

[Kon]

Couple things I picked up from playing DK for the first time online:

• Fast fall N-Air is godly
• DK's dash attack nullifies ZSS's stun gun
• His up tilt is awesome against light weights

Just picked him up and honestly I've been bopping people pretty hard.

correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can even nullify ZSS stun gun with a simple jab. Then you can go for spacing^^

Btw DKs fair is nice to spike some people with their follow-ups. I've done this multiple times.

Also: If invulnerability is away, you can spike people hanging on the ledge straight down.

After all: DK is best on stages with plattforms. Speaking of how to play DK effectively, I feel like he's good for spacing. Also his aerials are good follow-ups. I like his Up-Air as you can perform it 2times during a short hop if i'm not totally wrong. It was even fast enough to first force people to air-dodge and then hit them with a second Up-air.

The only thing I sometimes really mess up with is the fast fall. If you go for a spike and then he does a fast fall you haven't planned, you're already in a situation uncapable to recover because of the missing height of his recovery. I think I'll like DK even more on the WiiU where I guess the fast fall problem should be easier to avoid.^^