The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - fall down seven times, stand up eight (Mii costume confirmed)

[Sigran101]

So this is indeed speculations... not so far-fetched, sure, but still speculations anyways. Who knows the many reasons wich could have cause this glitch. Maybe it's true, but I don't want to rely my hopes on that.

Miis have really plain skeletons, so I would think it could be anyone, even a character who doesn't wield a sword but would have similar stances or movements.

The size of the skeleton is important. Lloyd would be about the same height and proportions, just with a smaller head. And the sword is actually just as important as the skeleton to the model, so I would think it would have to be a sword user, otherwise they would have used Brawler or Gunner. We're basically looking for a sword user that stands at about the same height and has similar proportions as the miis. That's pretty definitively Lloyd. You're right that it's speculation, but imo it's still pretty damn convincing after what happened with Duck Hunt and Banjo.

 

[Ypsen]

Spoiler: Long post

Does Tales of Arise really hinder Lloyd’s chances. I mean, the game he is from was most known for being on the GameCube and that should be more than enough for him to get in. He has a better relationship with Nintendo than Joker honestly.

We know for a fact that DLC characters are not just for charity. The price only of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the cost and the time of the development. Sakurai explained it in his latest book. DLC are risky and kinda gambles. So it's logical to assume the reason why the DLC which are this time chosen by Nintendo, coincide with other release on Nintendo Switch (although, until now, nothing related to Banjo apart from the fighter pass has been announced).

Besides, in the case of Third Party, negociations are way more difficult as we already know, which make it more than a reason to make sure that Nintendo will be ending winner in the end.

The plant has been chosen specifically because Sakurai think that she is a character that everybody knows and would be perfect to advertise the preorder. he explained it in a interview.

P5 Scramble on Nintendo Switch followed the announce of Joker.

Nintendo and Square advertise a while ago DQX1S for Switch and it's release date is perfectly scheduled with the Fighter Pass.

Nothing on Banjo yet, but it safe to assume with the last trends these last years that B&K will got a revival of some sort like other big icons such as Crash and Spyro.


And we have absolutely nothing related to Tales of regarding the schedule of the fighter pass. Vesperia came too early with minor advertisment (wich on a marketing perspective, would make no sense to announce a ToCharacter so late after the game release).

Then we have ToArise announcement, the new mothership title. There's the rub. Arise is announced on absolutely every plateforms except Nintendo's. Plus the game would be released after the end of the Fighter Pass. And we can fairly assume that no Tales of game are coming on Swicth before that date, since nothing has been announced on the E3's direct.

Why in the world Nintendo would freely advertise Bandai Namco on their precious and risky slot of the DLC fighter for Smash Bros, if they have nothing to gain in exchange ? As I mentionned, the price of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the risks of the development. Every character except Banjo (until now) have been part of a bigger marketing move, and Tales of clearly left Nintendo hanging for this year and the next to come.

The only thing we can expect, it's that a switch port of ToArise is already planned. But even if it's the case, that would mean it's release would be kinda late since we don't even have a precise release date for ToArise on PS4, PC etc... except a vague 2020. If a port would be released on switch, it would be at least on 2021, and it would'nt be marketing wise to use the Fighter Pass window to promote it.

If a tales of game would have been announced on Switch this E3, it would have tremendously rise the odd for our boy. No announces at all would still maintain his chances pretty high for multiple reasons that you all know. But in a twist of fate, the worst scenario occured. Tales is announced everywhere except on Nintendo console. I can't imagine more definitive disconfirmation for Lloyd.

Hopefully, I'm wrong. But in all honesty and humility, I highly doubt it.

The size of the skeleton is important. Lloyd would be about the same height and proportions, just with a smaller head. And the sword is actually just as important as the skeleton to the model, so I would think it would have to be a sword user, otherwise they would have used Brawler or Gunner. We're basically looking for a sword user that stands at about the same height and has similar proportions as the miis. That's pretty definitively Lloyd. You're right that it's speculation, but imo it's still pretty damn convincing after what happened with Duck Hunt and Banjo.

Wait, this doesn't make anymore sense now. You're saying that size and proportions matter, but did you compared Duck Hunt and B&K ?! They're not even close ! The stance, the size and proportions, all of it. The only reason I assumed people linked B&K with Duck Hunt, it's because some of their moves (like Bair and Dtilt) are similar. But if you assume they have to be that similar in size etc, then the argument of the skeleton doesn't stand anymore.
Honnestly, for the sake of century glitch argument, I don't think the skeleton has to have be this precise, but rather the blueprint of the character just work as a base for another character (wich will explained the similar moves or gameplays, like the shield for the Hero).
But just in case you would see Banjo and Duck Hunt that similar in shape... well I don't see why Lloyd would be the only character who coincide with the Mii morphology. There's so many candidates.

 

[Sigran101]

We know for a fact that DLC characters are not just for charity. The price only of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the cost and the time of the development. Sakurai explained it in his latest book. DLC are risky and kinda gambles. So it's logical to assume the reason why the DLC which are this time chosen by Nintendo, coincide with other release on Nintendo Switch (although, until now, nothing related to Banjo apart from the fighter pass has been announced).

Besides, in the case of Third Party, negociations are way more difficult as we already know, which make it more than a reason to make sure that Nintendo will be ending winner in the end.

The plant has been chosen specifically because Sakurai think that she is a character that everybody knows and would be perfect to advertise the preorder. he explained it in a interview.

P5 Scramble on Nintendo Switch followed the announce of Joker.

Nintendo and Square advertise a while ago DQX1S for Switch and it's release date is perfectly scheduled with the Fighter Pass.

Nothing on Banjo yet, but it safe to assume with the last trends these last years that B&K will got a revival of some sort like other big icons such as Crash and Spyro.


And we have absolutely nothing related to Tales of regarding the schedule of the fighter pass. Vesperia came too early with minor advertisment (wich on a marketing perspective, would make no sense to announce a ToCharacter so late after the game release).

Then we have ToArise announcement, the new mothership title. There's the rub. Arise is announced on absolutely every plateforms except Nintendo's. Plus the game would be released after the end of the Fighter Pass. And we can fairly assume that no Tales of game are coming on Swicth before that date, since nothing has been announced on the E3's direct.

Why in the world Nintendo would freely advertise Bandai Namco on their precious and risky slot of the DLC fighter for Smash Bros, if they have nothing to gain in exchange ? As I mentionned, the price of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the risks of the development. Every character except Banjo (until now) have been part of a bigger marketing move, and Tales of clearly left Nintendo hanging for this year and the next to come.

The only thing we can expect, it's that a switch port of ToArise is already planned. But even if it's the case, that would mean it's release would be kinda late since we don't even have a precise release date for ToArise on PS4, PC etc... except a vague 2020. If a port would be released on switch, it would be at least on 2021, and it would'nt be marketing wise to use the Fighter Pass window to promote it.

If a tales of game would have been announced on Switch this E3, it would have tremendously rise the odd for our boy. No announces at all would still maintain his chances pretty high for multiple reasons that you all know. But in a twist of fate, the worst scenario occured. Tales is announced everywhere except on Nintendo console. I can't imagine more definitive disconfirmation for Lloyd.

Hopefully, I'm wrong. But in all honesty and humility, I highly doubt it.



Wait, this doesn't make anymore sense now. You're saying that size and proportions matter, but did you compared Duck Hunt and B&K ?! They're not even close ! The stance, the size and proportions, all of it. The only reason I assumed people linked B&K with Duck Hunt, it's because some of their moves (like Bair and Dtilt) are similar. But if you assume they have to be that similar in size etc, then the argument of the skeleton doesn't stand anymore.
Honnestly, for the sake of century glitch argument, I don't think the skeleton has to have be this precise, but rather the blueprint of the character just work as a base for another character (wich will explained the similar moves or gameplays, like the shield for the Hero).
But just in case you would see Banjo and Duck Hunt that similar in shape... well I don't see why Lloyd would be the only character who coincide with the Mii morphology. There's so many candidates.

The reason Duck Hunt was the best fit for Banjo is because it already included one skeleton on the back of another. No other character has that. If they built Banjo off of anyone else they would have had to create Kazooie's skeleton from scratch.

 

[Ypsen]

The reason Duck Hunt was the best fit for Banjo is because it already included one skeleton on the back of another. No other character has that. If they built Banjo off of anyone else they would have had to create Kazooie's skeleton from scratch.

Yeah, thought the same. So it's gameplay based, not skeleton based. If Banjo doesn't have a skeleton similar to Duck Hunt, then there's no decisive evidence Mii S. would necesseraly have the same precise skeleton of Lloyd. Banjo proves that a character could be based on another with not necessarely the same morphology, but just because it's easier to implement the gameplay. According to the speculation of the century glitch that is. Still don't see any decisive facts wich show this glitch is related to new characters, especially Lloyd. Just conveniences.

 

[Sigran101]

Yeah, thought the same. So it's gameplay based, not skeleton based. If Banjo doesn't have a skeleton similar to Duck Hunt, then there's no decisive evidence Mii S. would necesseraly have the same precise skeleton of Lloyd. Banjo proves that a character could be based on another with not necessarely the same morphology, but just because it's easier to implement the gameplay. According to the speculation of the century glitch that is. Still don't see any decisive facts wich show this glitch is related to new characters, especially Lloyd. Just conveniences.

No. That's the opposite of what I said. It's 100% Skeleton based. To reiterate, Duck Hunt worked for Banjo because of the double skeleton. Not because of similar moves.

Edit: To put it more simply, modifying the dog's skeleton to stand upright and building Banjo from there and Kazooie from the duck is far less work than taking an already upright character and making a second skeleton from scratch to put on it's back.

 

[Ypsen]

No. That's the opposite of what I said. It's 100% Skeleton based. To reiterate, Duck Hunt worked for Banjo because of the double skeleton. Not because of similar moves.

Edit: To put it more simply, modifying the dog's skeleton to stand upright and building Banjo from there and Kazooie from the duck is far less work than taking an already upright character and making a second skeleton from scratch to put on it's back.

Yeah I got that. But what I mean is, even so, it's a contradiction with the fact that Mii S. should obviously be Lloyd because it should have precise proportions, when it's not the case for Banjo, who has just the "Duo" configuration, which what I meant by gameplay, blueprint, base for other chara and stuff. I really don't see why Mii S should have big chances to be Lloyd, more than anyone. But anyway, it's thinking the wrong way. We should'nt use it a non proved theory to raise the probability of our champion. Our Isaac's bro fellows did that a lot, turned out it was a bad Idea.

I can only try to guess what Nintendo have in mind and what the most effective way they could profit of the Smash DLC in this current time. I can't find any clues which lead to Tales of unfortunately. There was ToV at first, but Nintendo went pretty silent about it, so there's no reason they used Vesperia as an excuse when a lot of games whith got more or less the same amount of promotion. I try not to be biased just because I effin love Tales of, and would assume Nintendo would obviously turn themself to the licence just because it's Smash DLC time. They could chose any licences which could be more profitable at that moment... the question is, which one is ?

 

[ShelbyFriend]

I believe Lloyd might have a good chance, the whole Mii Swordfighter problem does seem rather weird, along with Lloyd being the only DLC costume character that isn't in smash in anyway.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

ShelbyFriend Please put discord links in your signature. Likewise, posting solely to advertise is against the rules.

Feel free to edit your post to show your support(or why you feel a character isn't likely). We encourage constructive conversations here.

 

[ShelbyFriend]

very sorry was unaware of the rules, wont happen again<3

 

[Desert Croc]

We know for a fact that DLC characters are not just for charity. The price only of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the cost and the time of the development. Sakurai explained it in his latest book. DLC are risky and kinda gambles. So it's logical to assume the reason why the DLC which are this time chosen by Nintendo, coincide with other release on Nintendo Switch (although, until now, nothing related to Banjo apart from the fighter pass has been announced).

Besides, in the case of Third Party, negociations are way more difficult as we already know, which make it more than a reason to make sure that Nintendo will be ending winner in the end.

The plant has been chosen specifically because Sakurai think that she is a character that everybody knows and would be perfect to advertise the preorder. he explained it in a interview.

P5 Scramble on Nintendo Switch followed the announce of Joker.

Nintendo and Square advertise a while ago DQX1S for Switch and it's release date is perfectly scheduled with the Fighter Pass.

Nothing on Banjo yet, but it safe to assume with the last trends these last years that B&K will got a revival of some sort like other big icons such as Crash and Spyro.


And we have absolutely nothing related to Tales of regarding the schedule of the fighter pass. Vesperia came too early with minor advertisment (wich on a marketing perspective, would make no sense to announce a ToCharacter so late after the game release).

Then we have ToArise announcement, the new mothership title. There's the rub. Arise is announced on absolutely every plateforms except Nintendo's. Plus the game would be released after the end of the Fighter Pass. And we can fairly assume that no Tales of game are coming on Swicth before that date, since nothing has been announced on the E3's direct.

Why in the world Nintendo would freely advertise Bandai Namco on their precious and risky slot of the DLC fighter for Smash Bros, if they have nothing to gain in exchange ? As I mentionned, the price of the DLC doesn't suffice to ensure the risks of the development. Every character except Banjo (until now) have been part of a bigger marketing move, and Tales of clearly left Nintendo hanging for this year and the next to come.

The only thing we can expect, it's that a switch port of ToArise is already planned. But even if it's the case, that would mean it's release would be kinda late since we don't even have a precise release date for ToArise on PS4, PC etc... except a vague 2020. If a port would be released on switch, it would be at least on 2021, and it would'nt be marketing wise to use the Fighter Pass window to promote it.

If a tales of game would have been announced on Switch this E3, it would have tremendously rise the odd for our boy. No announces at all would still maintain his chances pretty high for multiple reasons that you all know. But in a twist of fate, the worst scenario occured. Tales is announced everywhere except on Nintendo console. I can't imagine more definitive disconfirmation for Lloyd.

Hopefully, I'm wrong. But in all honesty and humility, I highly doubt it.



Wait, this doesn't make anymore sense now. You're saying that size and proportions matter, but did you compared Duck Hunt and B&K ?! They're not even close ! The stance, the size and proportions, all of it. The only reason I assumed people linked B&K with Duck Hunt, it's because some of their moves (like Bair and Dtilt) are similar. But if you assume they have to be that similar in size etc, then the argument of the skeleton doesn't stand anymore.
Honnestly, for the sake of century glitch argument, I don't think the skeleton has to have be this precise, but rather the blueprint of the character just work as a base for another character (wich will explained the similar moves or gameplays, like the shield for the Hero).
But just in case you would see Banjo and Duck Hunt that similar in shape... well I don't see why Lloyd would be the only character who coincide with the Mii morphology. There's so many candidates.

I don't get this line of thinking where a character has to have a game on Switch in order to be in Smash

It's clear that the Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest 11 S but there's absolutely no proof that Joker was added to coincide with Persona 5 Scrambled (which is being overshadowed by Royal). The game isn't coming out until possibly a year after he was dropped, not to mention he was announced long before P5S was confirmed to be happening, which made people question why he was even in the game in the first place. And Banjo getting into Smash isn't an indication that he will be getting a new game, and if you ask me, E3 would have been the perfect time to reveal one.

Also, Bandai Namco is working on the game, so it makes perfect sense as to why they would get another character.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where you're coming from, and it's entirely possible Nintendo is releasing characters alongside new game announcements/releases to increases DLC sales. Heck, I personally think Lloyd isn't as likely as some may think since I don't think many people outside the Smash bubble would know who he is nor care enough to buy him when compared to someone like Heihachi, who many more would recognise, but let's not lose hope just yet. We've got no credible leaks to go off of and if Joker of all characters could make it in, there's nothing stopping Lloyd from joining the fight either, especially since Sakurai has acknowledged his demand with a Mii costume.

 

[Sigran101]

Yeah I got that. But what I mean is, even so, it's a contradiction with the fact that Mii S. should obviously be Lloyd because it should have precise proportions, when it's not the case for Banjo, who has just the "Duo" configuration, which what I meant by gameplay, blueprint, base for other chara and stuff. I really don't see why Mii S should have big chances to be Lloyd, more than anyone. But anyway, it's thinking the wrong way. We should'nt use it a non proved theory to raise the probability of our champion. Our Isaac's bro fellows did that a lot, turned out it was a bad Idea.

I can only try to guess what Nintendo have in mind and what the most effective way they could profit of the Smash DLC in this current time. I can't find any clues which lead to Tales of unfortunately. There was ToV at first, but Nintendo went pretty silent about it, so there's no reason they used Vesperia as an excuse when a lot of games whith got more or less the same amount of promotion. I try not to be biased just because I effin love Tales of, and would assume Nintendo would obviously turn themself to the licence just because it's Smash DLC time. They could chose any licences which could be more profitable at that moment... the question is, which one is ?

You're separating them to to two different categories for no reason. The point is that characters are built over the skeleton of the character with the most similar skeleton to them. Duck hunt is by far the most similar skeleton to Banjo because it's the only character with one skeleton on top of another. It's the exact same thing as Mii swordfighter being the most similar to Lloyd due to being a child sized fighter with a sword. Only a child sized fighter with a sword would be put over Mii swordfighter because there are plenty of adult sized swordsmen and child sized non swordsmen that could be used instead. So essentially, we can assume that one of the new fighters is a child sized swordsman. Who else fits that but Lloyd?

Also, I'm not sure what unproven theory you're referring to with Isaac unless you mean the Grinch leak or the plant orb item, neither of which are remotely like this situation, but the glitch thing is based on facts and not guesswork or fake leaks. It's not like companion theory or Mii costume theory. It's just the only logical conclusion based on the facts.

Also, I'm not really a Lloyd supporter. In fact I was mentioning just a few pages back that I'm a few hours into my first playthrough of Symphonia, which I started because I believe he is in, so I want to be familiar with him if and when when the announcement happens. I'm actually the owner of the Velvet Crowe thread, and Lloyd getting in means my choice doesn't. So don't claim I'm being biased.

 

[Deleted member]

I believe Lloyd might have a good chance, the whole Mii Swordfighter problem does seem rather weird, along with Lloyd being the only DLC costume character that isn't in smash in anyway.

Not yet, anyway.

 

[Ypsen]

Spoiler: Long post

I don't get this line of thinking where a character has to have a game on Switch in order to be in Smash

It's clear that the Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest 11 S but there's absolutely no proof that Joker was added to coincide with Persona 5 Scrambled (which is being overshadowed by Royal). The game isn't coming out until possibly a year after he was dropped, not to mention he was announced long before P5S was confirmed to be happening, which made people question why he was even in the game in the first place. And Banjo getting into Smash isn't an indication that he will be getting a new game, and if you ask me, E3 would have been the perfect time to reveal one.

Also, Bandai Namco is working on the game, so it makes perfect sense as to why they would get another character.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where you're coming from, and it's entirely possible Nintendo is releasing characters alongside new game announcements/releases to increases DLC sales. Heck, I personally think Lloyd isn't as likely as some may think since I don't think many people outside the Smash bubble would know who he is nor care enough to buy him when compared to someone like Heihachi, who many more would recognise, but let's not lose hope just yet. We've got no credible leaks to go off of and if Joker of all characters could make it in, there's nothing stopping Lloyd from joining the fight either, especially since Sakurai has acknowledged his demand with a Mii costume.

Don't worry dude, I understand too. I guess I may look a bit much pessimistic.

You're right saying we have no proof. But I think it's a reasonnable assumption that the DLCs are linked to other marketing moves, especially if we think back at what Sakuraid said about them, and that the fact Nintendo propose a selection of a characters to Sakurai, instead letting him choose freely like usual.

In regards to P5S, Sakurai had to know about it's existence. He usualy have contact with developpers for implementing things to the moveset for characters or even characters before their games are out. And we have the proof that he knew about P5R : Joker has his hookshot in Ultimate, a tool he only posess in P5R. It would be weird if Atlus only informed him about P5R and not P5S for developing a moveset in Smash.
The fact that P5S is overshadowed by P5R is not enough reason to not promote P5 on Switch. Plus, Nintendo and Sakurai couldn't have guess how the news of P5S will be received. It's a Musou game, and both Hyrule Warriors and FE Warriors were well recieved and did very well in sales. No reason to not advertise it with Smash.

As for Banjo, it is indeed very strange that no game were announced the time during E3. One come only assume a Banjo game is either not planned or war not ready to be shown at E3. It's the big question mark and my only hopes for Lloyd remind here, because it's the only big flaw I see in my reasoning. If Banjo get no revival, that means indeed that marketing strategies are not necessarily a thing with this Fighter pass. If this go down, then I'll immediately raise Lloyd's chance to 50 or 60%.

Bamco did already worked on Smash 4, plus one the head of Tales of development team (who asked Sakurai to implement Lloyd). And Lloyd didn't happen that time. Same thing for the base roster of Ultimate. Unfortunately, Namco doesn't seem to have so much weight.

You're separating them to to two different categories for no reason. The point is that characters are built over the skeleton of the character with the most similar skeleton to them. Duck hunt is by far the most similar skeleton to Banjo because it's the only character with one skeleton on top of another. It's the exact same thing as Mii swordfighter being the most similar to Lloyd due to being a child sized fighter with a sword. Only a child sized fighter with a sword would be put over Mii swordfighter because there are plenty of adult sized swordsmen and child sized non swordsmen that could be used instead. So essentially, we can assume that one of the new fighters is a child sized swordsman. Who else fits that but Lloyd?

Also, I'm not sure what unproven theory you're referring to with Isaac unless you mean the Grinch leak or the plant orb item, neither of which are remotely like this situation, but the glitch thing is based on facts and not guesswork or fake leaks. It's not like companion theory or Mii costume theory. It's just the only logical conclusion based on the facts.

Also, I'm not really a Lloyd supporter. In fact I was mentioning just a few pages back that I'm a few hours into my first playthrough of Symphonia, which I started because I believe he is in, so I want to be familiar with him if and when when the announcement happens. I'm actually the owner of the Velvet Crowe thread, and Lloyd getting in means my choice doesn't. So don't claim I'm being biased.

I think there's a big imbroglio about the Skeleton thing, maybe it's my english. And I'm sorry if I offended you, my message about the way we should think our way to guess Lloyd's chance was not especially adressed to you. As for theories regarding Isaac, I didn't have a specific one in mind. What I saw in his topic threads, it's whenever someone find a detail where a link could be make to Isaac, it immediately became arguments and another reason to raise his probability. I don't call my Isaac bro's delusional or something, I think every smash newcomers speculations have this problem, especially very popular picks.

For the skeleton thing, I'm not separating them, it's actualy what I thought you were doing (imbroglio indeed).

To summarize what I think : Mii S doesn't necessarily fit for Lloyd. It could be other characters. And I don't see Lloyd short in size, the guy is 178cm tall, which is way taller than a child, and if we add the fact that size is inconsistent in Smash Bros, it's even more safer to discard the size argument. Regarding Banjo, if he could have the same skeleton of Duck Hunt with a complete different morphology, then any other character could too. The only thing which bond Mii S and Lloyd, are the special who looks like some of his artes (which we're not even sure to see on Lloyd's moveset). Plus, other character holding a sword with the same plain size that Lloyd have could use Mii S' skeleton, and those are legion.
This is why I personaly think the Mii fighter skeleton for Lloyd is very selective and inconsistent. And again, we don't even know if this glitch is related to new characters.

 

[Sigran101]

Spoiler: Long post

Don't worry dude, I understand too. I guess I may look a bit much pessimistic.

You're right saying we have no proof. But I think it's a reasonnable assumption that the DLCs are linked to other marketing moves, especially if we think back at what Sakuraid said about them, and that the fact Nintendo propose a selection of a characters to Sakurai, instead letting him choose freely like usual.

In regards to P5S, Sakurai had to know about it's existence. He usualy have contact with developpers for implementing things to the moveset for characters or even characters before their games are out. And we have the proof that he knew about P5R : Joker has his hookshot in Ultimate, a tool he only posess in P5R. It would be weird if Atlus only informed him about P5R and not P5S for developing a moveset in Smash.
The fact that P5S is overshadowed by P5R is not enough reason to not promote P5 on Switch. Plus, Nintendo and Sakurai couldn't have guess how the news of P5S will be received. It's a Musou game, and both Hyrule Warriors and FE Warriors were well recieved and did very well in sales. No reason to not advertise it with Smash.

As for Banjo, it is indeed very strange that no game were announced the time during E3. One come only assume a Banjo game is either not planned or war not ready to be shown at E3. It's the big question mark and my only hopes for Lloyd remind here, because it's the only big flaw I see in my reasoning. If Banjo get no revival, that means indeed that marketing strategies are not necessarily a thing with this Fighter pass. If this go down, then I'll immediately raise Lloyd's chance to 50 or 60%.

Bamco did already worked on Smash 4, plus one the head of Tales of development team (who asked Sakurai to implement Lloyd). And Lloyd didn't happen that time. Same thing for the base roster of Ultimate. Unfortunately, Namco doesn't seem to have so much weight.




I think there's a big imbroglio about the Skeleton thing, maybe it's my english. And I'm sorry if I offended you, my message about the way we should think our way to guess Lloyd's chance was not especially adressed to you. As for theories regarding Isaac, I didn't have a specific one in mind. What I saw in his topic threads, it's whenever someone find a detail where a link could be make to Isaac, it immediately became arguments and another reason to raise his probability. I don't call my Isaac bro's delusional or something, I think every smash newcomers speculations have this problem, especially very popular picks.

For the skeleton thing, I'm not separating them, it's actualy what I thought you were doing (imbroglio indeed).

To summarize what I think : Mii S doesn't necessarily fit for Lloyd. It could be other characters. And I don't see Lloyd short in size, the guy is 178cm tall, which is way taller than a child, and if we add the fact that size is inconsistent in Smash Bros, it's even more safer to discard the size argument. Regarding Banjo, if he could have the same skeleton of Duck Hunt with a complete different morphology, then any other character could too. The only thing which bond Mii S and Lloyd, are the special who looks like some of his artes (which we're not even sure to see on Lloyd's moveset). Plus, other character holding a sword with the same plain size that Lloyd have could use Mii S' skeleton, and those are legion.
This is why I personaly think the Mii fighter skeleton for Lloyd is very selective and inconsistent. And again, we don't even know if this glitch is related to new characters.

Don't worry about that, you haven't offended me. I think I see where the misunderstanding is. I wasn't using Banjo a evidence of which characters are used as skeletons. I was using Banjo as evidence that the glitches are due to new characters being put over existing ones. If you want a good idea what they look for in skeletons to put characters over, Cloud was built over Ike, and Bayo was built over Zamus. It's all about model similarity. If it was gameplay, Cloud would have been made over a faster swordsman, not slow, heavy Ike.

In Mii swordfighter's instance, I think it implies a very specific kind of character. If the character is a regular sized swordsman, they would have been built off of Marth, Link (like hero) Ike, or any of the other normal size swordsman. If it were a small character that didn't have a sword, they could have been built over a small character that doesn't have a sword (so they don't have to remove it) such as Ness, Villager, or, more accurately, Mii brawler or Mii Gunner. So in this case we're looking for a character that is both small and a swordsman. Lloyd may not be child size exactly, but compare him to the adults in ToS and he's obviously pretty small. What other small swordsmen are on the smash radar at all? I think Lloyd is the best fit by far.

 

[VashTehStampede]

Are you a Lloyd supporter Ypsen ? It seems that while every point made for Lloyd should indeed be met with some counter arguments, you're pretty intent on shooting hard at all things coming up for Lloyd.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Just a question on the skeleton idea. Would mii swordfighter's lack of a second sword affect anything? Pit has two swords if you split the bow apart, and because of that I was wondering if it would be more work to adjust proportions or to add a second weapon. I'm assuming the weapon would be an easier change, especially since mii swordfighter's moveset already fits Lloyd so well, but I don't know much about programming.

 

[Ypsen]

Don't worry about that, you haven't offended me. I think I see where the misunderstanding is. I wasn't using Banjo a evidence of which characters are used as skeletons. I was using Banjo as evidence that the glitches are due to new characters being put over existing ones. If you want a good idea what they look for in skeletons to put characters over, Cloud was built over Ike, and Bayo was built over Zamus. It's all about model similarity. If it was gameplay, Cloud would have been made over a faster swordsman, not slow, heavy Ike.

In Mii swordfighter's instance, I think it implies a very specific kind of character. If the character is a regular sized swordsman, they would have been built off of Marth, Link (like hero) Ike, or any of the other normal size swordsman. If it were a small character that didn't have a sword, they could have been built over a small character that doesn't have a sword (so they don't have to remove it) such as Ness, Villager, or, more accurately, Mii brawler or Mii Gunner. So in this case we're looking for a character that is both small and a swordsman. Lloyd may not be child size exactly, but compare him to the adults in ToS and he's obviously pretty small. What other small swordsmen are on the smash radar at all? I think Lloyd is the best fit by far.

Okay, I see it now. Makes more sense, indeed. Putting that way, I understand why the century glitch hold water, despite the lack of any proofs. Thanks for your patience.

As for the Mii S, I think we're simply don't agree on Lloyd's size. ToS being my favorite game, I played it countless time and Lloyd never striked me as way shorter in comparison of other adults in the game. And with the release of the manga/anime and Soul Calibur Legends, he always strike me as a normal sized adult. And it's even more glaring in Tales of versus, where Lloyd have the same size of Yuri and Luke. Maybe the cel-shadind of ToS makes him look short ? But then again, compare Lloyd size to Kratos, and they look really similar in size.
Anyway as I said, sizes are not consistent in Smash bros. Link is a good exemple, since he's a really short sized adult in many of his game and doesn't appear that way in Smash. So we can't guess how tall Lloyd would be in Smash. Personnaly I imagined him more close than Roy or Shulk in stature.

Are you a Lloyd supporter Ypsen ? It seems that while every point made for Lloyd should indeed be met with some counter arguments, you're pretty intent on shooting hard at all things coming up for Lloyd.

You don't know how badly I want him in Smash. Back in the brawl era, I was 100% convinced he would appear in the game, since ToS was one of the best hit of the NGC. I was stunned at the time, but kept hope for the next game. Eventually, Golden Sun died, so Isaac become a priority for Smash, praying for a new sunrise. And then I learned about Bamco developping Sm4sh, but again Lloyd was nowhere to be seen... and his Mii costume showed up ! Alright ! If Bamco still developing the next entry, then Lloyd HAD to be in it ! He's a fan favorite ! Sakurai acknowledge him ! Besides, after K.Rool announcement, Sakurai did say he was focusing on the ballot for Ultimate's roster ! Then... Nothing again.

All of these momentum were great for him to appear in Smash. And now for the first time, something dreadful happend which could harshly reduce his chances, wich never happend before. If Lloyd didn't make it before, where every stars seemed to be aligned for him, I don't see why in the world he would have more chances now. Time passing is not enough to expect Sakurai finaly listening to us. There's so many characters that are requested or deserved to be in Smash, so many marketing moves that Nintendo could make with this fighter pass in order to promote other future games that we probably don't even know about...

Tales of Symphonia is my second best favorite game in all time. I crave for Lloyd in Smash. But it's not because I try to be pragmatic that I want to rain on your parade. I just don't see any significant argument for him. The ToArise scenario is in my book a far more decisive hint that any details we could try to highlight to make Lloyd more likey in this Fighter Pass.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, who knows ? I don't think so, but I will gladly eat my words. If Only Nintendo could say anywhere they have absolute no plans for a Banjo game, or an announcement for a soon Tales of game... then I'll finally can believe again that Lloyd have high chances to appear in this Fighter Pass. Until this happen, Lloyd's chance is at it's lowest. But since other people seem to think the exact opposite, no wonder I debate hard.
Nintendo are not slow-witted. If they can make DLC characters that a lot of people love AND promote an incoming game, they gladly chose them other Lloyd who doesn't to seem profitable for them a this moment.

 

[Sigran101]

Okay, I see it now. Makes more sense, indeed. Putting that way, I understand why the century glitch hold water, despite the lack of any proofs. Thanks for your patience.

As for the Mii S, I think we're simply don't agree on Lloyd's size. ToS being my favorite game, I played it countless time and Lloyd never striked me as way shorter in comparison of other adults in the game. And with the release of the manga/anime and Soul Calibur Legends, he always strike me as a normal sized adult. And it's even more glaring in Tales of versus, where Lloyd have the same size of Yuri and Luke. Maybe the cel-shadind of ToS makes him look short ? But then again, compare Lloyd size to Kratos, and they look really similar in size.
Anyway as I said, sizes are not consistent in Smash bros. Link is a good exemple, since he's a really short sized adult in many of his game and doesn't appear that way in Smash. So we can't guess how tall Lloyd would be in Smash. Personnaly I imagined him more close than Roy or Shulk in stature.




You don't know how badly I want him in Smash. Back in the brawl era, I was 100% convinced he would appear in the game, since ToS was one of the best hit of the NGC. I was stunned at the time, but kept hope for the next game. Eventually, Golden Sun died, so Isaac become a priority for Smash, praying for a new sunrise. And then I learned about Bamco developping Sm4sh, but again Lloyd was nowhere to be seen... and his Mii costume showed up ! Alright ! If Bamco still developing the next entry, then Lloyd HAD to be in it ! He's a fan favorite ! Sakurai acknowledge him ! Besides, after K.Rool announcement, Sakurai did say he was focusing on the ballot for Ultimate's roster ! Then... Nothing again.

All of these momentum were great for him to appear in Smash. And now for the first time, something dreadful happend which could harshly reduce his chances, wich never happend before. If Lloyd didn't make it before, where every stars seemed to be aligned for him, I don't see why in the world he would have more chances now. Time passing is not enough to expect Sakurai finaly listening to us. There's so many characters that are requested or deserved to be in Smash, so many marketing moves that Nintendo could make with this fighter pass in order to promote other future games that we probably don't even know about...

Tales of Symphonia is my second best favorite game in all time. I crave for Lloyd in Smash. But it's not because I try to be pragmatic that I want to rain on your parade. I just don't see any significant argument for him. The ToArise scenario is in my book a far more decisive hint that any details we could try to highlight to make Lloyd more likey in this Fighter Pass.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, who knows ? I don't think so, but I will gladly eat my words. If Only Nintendo could say anywhere they have absolute no plans for a Banjo game, or an announcement for a soon Tales of game... then I'll finally can believe again that Lloyd have high chances to appear in this Fighter Pass. Until this happen, Lloyd's chance is at it's lowest. But since other people seem to think the exact opposite, no wonder I debate hard.
Nintendo are not slow-witted. If they can make DLC characters that a lot of people love AND promote an incoming game, they gladly chose them other Lloyd who doesn't to seem profitable for them a this moment.

I totally understand being pessimistic. Especially when it comes to your most wanted. But I truly believe Lloyd's chances are at an all time high.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Just a question on the skeleton idea. Would mii swordfighter's lack of a second sword affect anything? Pit has two swords if you split the bow apart, and because of that I was wondering if it would be more work to adjust proportions or to add a second weapon. I'm assuming the weapon would be an easier change, especially since mii swordfighter's moveset already fits Lloyd so well, but I don't know much about programming.

I don't know. Hey Sigran101 would the Mii sword fighter's lack of a second sword have any affect on the skeleton?

 

[Sigran101]

I don't know. Hey Sigran101 would the Mii sword fighter's lack of a second sword have any affect on the skeleton?

I'm not a professional graphic artist or a game developer, but since there's currently no character with double swords, they have to add a second sword no matter who they build it over. So I don't think that affects it at all.

Edit: ALongWistfulSquiggle I didn't see your post until just now. Pit's swords are more like knives, and the wings would probably be a bigger issue than the swords. In general, I don't believe adding weapons isn't a big deal. Certainly not as much as the rest of the skeleton being accurate. Honestly, Pit could probably work too, but since Mii swordsman is the glitching character and not Pit, we really just have to ask who else would fit Mi swordfighter.

But again, I'm not an authority on the subject.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I'm not a professional graphic artist or a game developer, but since there's currently no character with double swords, they have to add a second sword no matter who they build it over. So I don't think that affects it at all.

Edit: ALongWistfulSquiggle I didn't see your post until just now. Pit's swords are more like knives, and the wings would probably be a bigger issue than the swords. In general, I don't believe adding weapons isn't a big deal. Certainly not as much as the rest of the skeleton being accurate. Honestly, Pit could probably work too, but since Mii swordsman is the glitching character and not Pit, we really just have to ask who else would fit Mi swordfighter.

But again, I'm not an authority on the subject.

That makes sense. I didn't think about Pit's wings.

I do think there are several other characters that would make some level of sense with mii swordfighter's skeleton (any Bravely Second character, Zero from Mega Man, Isaac from Golden Sun, Wonder Blue, and probably a bunch of kids) but as far as I can tell they all have issues that would prevent them from happening except for Lloyd, so I'd say he's got a good shot at making it.

 

[Sigran101]

That makes sense. I didn't think about Pit's wings.

I do think there are several other characters that would make some level of sense with mii swordfighter's skeleton (any Bravely Second character, Zero from Mega Man, Isaac from Golden Sun, Wonder Blue, and probably a bunch of kids) but as far as I can tell they all have issues that would prevent them from happening except for Lloyd, so I'd say he's got a good shot at making it.

Zero and Isaac are assist trophies, and wonder blue would never get in over wonder red. Bravely Second is technically possible, but Square already had a DLC character and there are at least three or four squeenix characters that would get in before a Bravely character. There are possibilities aside from Lloyd, but none with any real chance. I'm extremely confident he's in.

 

[VashTehStampede]

Im so glad Sigran101 is here to counter point stuff. I've been too lazy hahaha. Good stuff

 

[Icedragonadam]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._games_during_the_first_half_of_2019_in_japan

Tales of Vesperia ranked 17th for most downloaded retail game for the first half of 2019 in Japan. Which is good for the series. And it should help with other Tales ports being on there as well.

Oh and there's that bird picture Sabi's main source posted a while ago. Birds seem to be a common animal motif in Tales so it could be hinting at a Tales rep like Lloyd, if that is actually a hint to something and if it's Smash.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

There are possibilities aside from Lloyd, but none with any real chance. I'm extremely confident he's in.

I've been highly confident in Lloyd's chances since the Assist Trophy massacre of November 1st, 2018.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._games_during_the_first_half_of_2019_in_japan

Tales of Vesperia ranked 17th for most downloaded retail game for the first half of 2019 in Japan. Which is good for the series. And it should help with other Tales ports being on there as well.

Oh and there's that bird picture Sabi's main source posted a while ago. Birds seem to be a common animal motif in Tales so it could be hinting at a Tales rep like Lloyd, if that is actually a hint to something and if it's Smash.

Was there ever a crow on a roof like in Sabi's source's picture in Tales of Symphonia?

 

[Nightguything]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._games_during_the_first_half_of_2019_in_japan

Tales of Vesperia ranked 17th for most downloaded retail game for the first half of 2019 in Japan. Which is good for the series. And it should help with other Tales ports being on there as well.

Oh and there's that bird picture Sabi's main source posted a while ago. Birds seem to be a common animal motif in Tales so it could be hinting at a Tales rep like Lloyd, if that is actually a hint to something and if it's Smash.

The bird being related to Lloyd is a huge reach, if anything it’s more likely tied to a resident evil rep, if it has anything to do with smash at all/

 

[VashTehStampede]

So the new spirits for hero got semi leaked, he also has a group spirt of the band of heroes from dq11. Does this mean we can start a new theory called “The group theory” ?

 

[Desert Croc]

So the new spirits for hero got semi leaked, he also has a group spirt of the band of heroes from dq11. Does this mean we can start a new theory called “The group theory” ? View attachment 232605

Not really. I don’t think you there would be a group spirit for Banjo.

 

[VashTehStampede]

Not really. I don’t think you there would be a group spirit for Banjo.

I was mainly joking, meant to put an emoji in there haha. Banjo could have the spiral mountain crew with mumbo jumbo, or it could be the jinjos with the jinjo statue but who knows

 

[Desert Croc]

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if people started reaching that far. So many theories have been popping up that it all seems like a desperate attempt to narrow down possible characters and find out who will be the final two.

The last two characters are obviously Crash and Phoenix Wright guys. They represent Orange and Blue and their companions are Aku Aku and Maya. Pack it up! I've figured out everything!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I was mainly joking, meant to put an emoji in there haha. Banjo could have the spiral mountain crew with mumbo jumbo, or it could be the jinjos with the jinjo statue but who knows

Banjo's group ain't going to be called the Spriel Mountain crew... They're going to be called the Rareware crew.

The last two characters are obviously Crash and Phoenix Wright guys. They represent Orange and Blue and their companions are Aku Aku and Maya. Pack it up! I've figured out everything!

You mean this Aku?

 

[ryuu seika]

Banjo's group ain't going to be called the Spriel Mountain crew... They're going to be called the Rareware crew.

Rareware bears?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Rareware bears?

Banjo & Kazooie are probably coming with Rare Spirits outside of their franchise as well just manly due to the fact that dataminers found Blast Corps and Jetforce Gemini's Japanese names in the code half a year ago.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Banjo & Kazooie are probably coming with Rare Spirits outside of their franchise as well just manly due to the fact that dataminers found Blast Corps and Jetforce Gemini's Japanese names in the code half a year ago.

Maybe. But it should be noted that Nintendo owned the rights to the names of the Spirits' franchises. So it being removed due to them not being able to do more with the code makes sense too. The code itself Nintendo can put it in, to be clear. As it's just the name. Any character designs/etc. they don't own, and cannot use without Micorsoft's permission.

I'm sure they'll show up, though. There's a fair chance they cut those due to being unable to legally use the data(beyond the name, which isn't illegal), and then later asked Microsoft to fully use them. Of course, that's one theory. We might not even see those spirits even then(most likely will, though, but not a guarantee).

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Maybe. But it should be noted that Nintendo owned the rights to the names of the Spirits' franchises.

I think I heard a lot people saying it was the rights to the Japanese names of Blast Corps and Jetforce Gemini. But I don't see that as the case because if so than Rare Replay shouldn't been released in Japan because it has those games in it. I'm pretty sure Microsoft has 100% percent ownership over the Japanese names of the Rare franchises.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

If you want to see Lloyd Irving in Smash, this is the best chance you'll have. (Download the game if you want!)
https://www.mcleodgaming.com/games/ssf2
Also...

Banjo's group ain't going to be called the Spriel Mountain crew... They're going to be called the Rareware crew.

Fawful's Minion: Where's the Rareware lords when you need them?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think I heard a lot people saying it was the rights to the Japanese names of Blast Corps and Jetforce Gemini. But I don't see that as the case because if so than Rare Replay shouldn't been released in Japan because it has those games in it. I'm pretty sure Microsoft has 100% percent ownership over the Japanese names of the Rare franchises.

No, Nintendo does own those names.

And only those names. I've seen the updated copyrights. Nintendo does have them. No clue why. The thing is, Rare Replay being released in Japan would mean that Nintendo got some royalties and that's it. They aren't going to say no for the sake of it. It takes almost nothing to negotiate in cases like these. They get their tiny amount of cash for name usage by licensing it out to Microsoft, and that's literally the end of it.

It also is kind of an interesting thing that this even exists; Rareware is still tied to Nintendo officially at this time. It's not too surprising they eventually got another character in Smash(I mean, they did create Diddy Kong. I think they created K. Rool too?)

Anyway, getting back to Lloyd, I wonder if he should have different swords to use per costume. I'd love his joke weapon too, but different sound effects is a lot of extra work for no real pay-off.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

(I mean, they did create Diddy Kong. I think they created K. Rool too?)

Yes, Rare created K. Rool. Steve Mayles from Rare created and originally designed K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Banjo, and Kazooie. The dude has three of his characters in Smash now, what a lucky guy.

 

[Ypsen]

Spoiler: Adeleine Leak

So, after the Raysquad leak, we have the Adeleine leak. Not sure what to think of it, both have expected DLC characters but in the other hand, what are the odds to have a perfect record till now ?

Does anybody know if it's possible to edit the date of a post on 4chan and Gamefaqs ?

MAJOR EDIT :

Spoiler: DQ Music tracks

What do we have here...
If you don't catch my drift, some musics have their games titled next to them. The main reason I only can think about, it's because other tracks share the same name.

And as other Tales of fans knows, "Fighting of the Spirit" is a very popular track in Tales of games, mainly known from Tales of Phantasia (the first game of the serie) and of course, Tales of Symphonia : Lloyd's game.

Though the name is slightly different. Of course, this precision could be for any other reasons.

I don't think it's a very good argument in favor of Lloyd, but who knows ?

 

[GameWatching]

Music thing can go both ways. It could be a teaser as well, alongside the

Spoiler

stage name

But if there's something to be noted, it's the Mii Costume theory no longer being an argument in Lloyd's favor.