The definition of a combo

[epic of DE]

I dunno...in the standard fighting game genre sense melee has no combos in the sense that upon pressing the proper combination your character goes through the entire combo. Smash has more of a successive following of a hit idea for a combo has you can do whatever you like as you fight your opponent and don't just put in a certain combination of buttons and let the game do the work.

Case and point: The game doesn't have combos, you are the combo

 

[iMichael]

Killer Instinct has combos.....end.

 

[BEES]

I, for one, am hopeful that combos that fit the classical definition will be found in Brawl. With more than 3-4 moves.

In the meantime, we may need a scientific term for a situation where no matter what your opponent does, they will get hit, but there are multiple ways it could happen, depending what they try to do.

I am not talking about 'mindgaming' or 'punishment'. Not talking about striking lucky and winning the rock-paper-scissor game. I mean literally nothing they can do escapes the hit, but it might change where and when the hit occurs. You could DI in different directions after a hit for instance, but you can get hit again no matter where you go, before you have a chance to fully escape. Or even better, you could be forced into a position to recover. You could do other moves, but all of them will result in death. You have to recover in order to live, and all of the possible recoveries from your position could be gimped in this specific case.

Putting it in chess terms, it would be like a discovered move. Your opponent can either lose a bishop or a knight. They have to lose one, so in some sense it's unavoidable, but they influence which one they lose, so it's not a rigid combo.

What would you call this? Forced Punishment?

 

[DarkKnight077]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM <---This is a combo.

What you have in Brawl is not combos, because have of them don't even kill. Hell haven of fun them don't even hit half if the time.

Usually a combo is referred as consecutive hits you can't get out of without being punished.

It doesn't matter how good your DI is Melee because sometimes you try ever so hard to get out of a combo and then you get punished for it.

 

[Sliq]

Combo - inescapable
String - hitting your opponenet subsequently due to bad decisions on their part or good reading on yours

There are few preset auto combos in Brawl. Most Brawl combos are based in the past. It isn't a combo until you hit them. The potential to hit them without them reacting does not make a combo.

Brawl has hardly any combos, which is ********. It doesn't necassarily need as many as Melee, but SOME would be nice for Christ's sake. Seriously. Look, I did a 2 hit combo! *Crowd goes wild*

All of the depth that is in Brawl is in Melee, but not all of the depth in Melee is in Brawl. The gameplay mechanics were better in Melee. It just had balancing issues.

I guess Brawl also has balancing issues, because of tripping. ZING!

 

[iMichael]

Combo - inescapable
String - hitting your opponenet subsequently due to bad decisions on their part or good reading on yours

There are few preset auto combos in Brawl. Most Brawl combos are based in the past. It isn't a combo until you hit them. The potential to hit them without them reacting does not make a combo.

Brawl has hardly any combos, which is ********. It doesn't necassarily need as many as Melee, but SOME would be nice for Christ's sake. Seriously. Look, I did a 2 hit combo! *Crowd goes wild*

All of the depth that is in Brawl is in Melee, but not all of the depth in Melee is in Brawl. The gameplay mechanics were better in Melee. It just had balancing issues.

I guess Brawl also has balancing issues, because of tripping. ZING!

Basically what Sliq just said.....

 

[Jazriel]

Just want to point out a few things before I make my actual reply:

"A videogame is not to be compared to actual fighting. End of story. Real Life =/= Fighting game. Ever." - AmigoOne

I know you said you got a little riled up, but to think that something from real life is not applicable to a game is extremely naive. Concepts of fighting in real life, are even more applicable to fighting games than vice versa.

What is the ultimate, irrefutable, form of competition? A fight to the death. Where your skill embodies your entire existence. If your skill isn't up to par, you die. Period.

Applying how the Master's thought to a video game is perfectly valid. Isai's quote is exactly what they thought: "Don't get hit". "Don't jump into the ****." as Azen would say (afaik).

Because of this, I think Brawl has a fascinating metagame, because (so far) it is very much like ACTUAL FIGHTING. You may think "Oh I just lost $10k at that tourney", but imagine thinking-- Oh wait, you can't. You're dead.

Real life == video games, all the time.



"Guys. There is no such thing as a "rapier" sport.

It is called FENCING. In FENCING, you fence with a "foil", "saber", or "epee"." - Tyrael64

I'm sorry, but you're a failure. Foil/Sabre (Who does this anyways?)/Epee is OLYMPIC FENCING. 17th century rapier or 16th century German Longsword is HISTORICAL FENCING or just FENCING.

I did foil for 3 years. Don't even try to overimpose such a bad sport over something as glorious as an actual combat system.



Now, to my actual post for this thread:

I, for one, am hopeful that combos that fit the classical definition will be found in Brawl. With more than 3-4 moves." - BEES

This is exactly the type of pathetic behaviour (no disrepect, I'm just saying) that made me start this thread.

Fine, there is a definite definition of a combo. Brawl does not have combos. Why is this a bad thing? I'll refrain from the Real Life analogies because they don't help my point in this regard, but I still don't understand why combos are what "make the game" and "provide a deep and lasting metagame".



"Brawl has hardly any combos, which is ********." - Sliq

Why is it ********? To get even one hit in Brawl takes skill, patience, mindgames, you name it.

But instead all you're asking for is a game that gives you multiple hits. Seems extremely lazy and simple to me. "Omg guyz, liek luk at ma tech skillz! I cn liekz l-cancel wit falcoon. Nuw ima stomp to t3h kniiiiz!!!!!one!!!".

An exaggeration to be sure, but I'm completely not-understanding the fundamentals as to why a combo makes a game.

 

[ChopingBoard]

if those idiots are saying there are no combos obviously hasn't got back-aired by toon loonk of they have not got chain grabbed by iceclimbers.

 

[DarkKnight077]

if those idiots are saying there are no combos obviously hasn't got back-aired by toon loonk of they have not got chain grabbed by iceclimbers.

You can get out of them pretty easily. Like DDD's Chaingrab. It's not like Melee where you stuck sometimes in the IC's chaingrab I.E Wobbling.

Most of the time Brawl "combos" are kind of due to bad DI or maybe the other smasher just got lucky.

A fighting game with no combos is like American Football without the forward pass. It just doesn't make sense.

Even the original Street Fighter has combos, Brawl doesn't at all. There is no punishment at all it is a stupid rendition of how not to make a fighting game. Sure it's fun but come on do I want to play Super Smash at Street Fighter II speed?

 

[Zankoku]

Dedede's chaingrab is inescapable for a few characters, and ICs do have true infinites that will only stop if the ICs player messes up or decides to stop. The Wobbles is not a chaingrab.

A lot of Melee combos are due to poor DI, or situationally punishable DI. The thing is, in Melee you could still combo off of proper DI sometimes, while Brawl's combos rely almost entirely on poor DI.

 

[Dark Sonic]

A lot of Melee combos are due to poor DI, or situationally punishable DI. The thing is, in Melee you could still combo off of proper DI sometimes, while Brawl's combos rely almost entirely on poor DI.

Quote for emphasis.

And to expand a little bit.

Combos are basically a system of punishment for making a mistake. In melee, if you made a mistake you could take one hit or possibly be killed if you continued making mistakes (like bad DI). In brawl you will likely take one or two hits and then realize that you can simply airdodge and land back on the ground safely, with very little risk involved. This promotes turtling as the dominant style of play. There's much fewer ways to actively pressure opponents in brawl (due to less movement options, lower shield stun, ect.) so you're much more likely to make a mistake when attacking than when defending. The problem is that even when you succesfully attack the only thing you've gained is one hit and a possible guessing game. Thus...approaching is bad, defending is good. That's a flawed system, as they should both be equally viable strategies.

Also, Those long zero to death combos that you see people doing in melee, is just them succesfully reading DI on certain moves while also incorporating "combo" moves in as well.

Here's where you get that depth that we are talking about. Example
Marth vs Fox. Up throw chain grab=Real combo. D-throw/F-throw to F-smash=easily escaped if they expected it. Here's where the mindgames come in. You chain grab them for a little while, and then f-throw them and f-smash them. They were worried so much about something that actually combos, that they didn't react to something that is quite simple to avoid.

This creates situations in which you can land unsafe moves on your opponent that aren't even real combos, simply because your opponent was expecting something that actually combos and did not take the correct measures to avoid it (like teching, DIing, attacking, ect.) However, if they no longer have to worry about combos, then you won't get this kind of guessing situation. That removes depth.

 

[Snakeyes]

diego the beast http://youtube.com/watch?v=LKWEG91P5e4

Let me guess, is this the Daigo parry vid everyone has already seen? Yep, just as I thought. LOL "Diego". Don't just copy anything you see in a Youtube description, makes you look like an idiot.

 

[D1nhil 0ne]

"Guys. There is no such thing as a "rapier" sport.

It is called FENCING. In FENCING, you fence with a "foil", "saber", or "epee"." - Tyrael64

I'm sorry, but you're a failure. Foil/Sabre (Who does this anyways?)/Epee is OLYMPIC FENCING. 17th century rapier or 16th century German Longsword is HISTORICAL FENCING or just FENCING.

I did foil for 3 years. Don't even try to overimpose such a bad sport over something as glorious as an actual combat system.

You run with the ARMA crowd don't you?

 

[Sliq]

"Brawl has hardly any combos, which is ********." - Sliq

The same reasons everyone has already said. One hit punishment means someone who makes a lot of mistakes can still win a match, which is a ludicrous concept when it comes to a competitive game. You shouldn't necessarily die from a mistake, but you should definitely be put in a much more disadvantaged nature than in Brawl.

Why is it ********? To get even one hit in Brawl takes skill, patience, mindgames, you name it.

So does landing the first move of a combo, and then the subsequent hits.

An exaggeration to be sure, but I'm completely not-understanding the fundamentals as to why a combo makes a game.

The same reasons everyone has already said. One hit punishment means someone who makes a lot of mistakes can still win a match, which is a ludicrous concept when it comes to a competitive game. You shouldn't necessarily die from a mistake, but you should definitely be put in a much more disadvantaged nature than in Brawl.

Why is it ********? To get even one hit in Brawl takes skill, patience, mindgames, you name it.

So does landing the first move of a combo, and then the subsequent hits.

Combo's take skill to setup and execute.

 

[Jazriel]

You run with the ARMA crowd don't you?

There are no ARMA groups in Canada. I do rapier with a local club.




Sonic Wave, I think you're missing something. Sure, you can air-dodge out of the 3rd hit of a 2 hit combo, but if the person who's combo'ing knows they're going to air dodge...


What you people are failing to realize is that:

1) Sure, camping seems like a good strategy, until your opponent camps you right back. Oh look, who's having fun going nowhere now? (*cough*Abalone*cough*)

2) You people are playing the What-If game, except you're playing it terribly.

"Oh oh oh, what if he air dodges? Where's your combo now?"

You need to ask the second half of the question:

"Oh oh oh, what if he mindgames the guy into airdodging, and continues to combo him?"

So does landing the first move of a combo, and then the subsequent hits.

Exactly. So what difference does it make? We had a system that requires skill, patience, mindgames, but had inescapable combos and unfair (read: unbalanced) chains of attacks vs certain characters.

Now we have a system that requires skill, patience, mindgames, and has no inescapable combos and has significantly less "broken" aspects to it.


I still fail to see why Brawl is "********" and "worse than melee".

Like I said, I think everyone is being far too lazy. Before, you needed only to consider their DI and what to do with that. Now you need to think: Are they going to attack? Air dodge? Nothing? If they attack, what attack will it be? If it's a fair I can fast fall and use an Utilt, if it's a dair, I can IDJ and fair. If they air dodge, when will they do it? Will they do it preemptively? Will they wait for my attack? If they wait, which of my fast attacks should I use? If they don't, what slower attack or slower setup would give me the most advantage? If they do nothing, what do I do? Which attack has decayed enough to give me a combo from it? Should I set up for a move that has no decay on it at the moment?


Boo hoo, significantly less hit stun. There are still a ton of things to consider. Brawl is not ******** because it doesn't have combos, it's just different.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic Wave, I think you're missing something. Sure, you can air-dodge out of the 3rd hit of a 2 hit combo, but if the person who's combo'ing knows they're going to air dodge...

Then there's not much they can do about it since the other person lands before the invincibility runs out or they airdodge again on your next attack.

What you people are failing to realize is that:

1) Sure, camping seems like a good strategy, until your opponent camps you right back. Oh look, who's having fun going nowhere now? (*cough*Abalone*cough*)

Frankly, I'd rather camp and win the money with very little risk involved

2) You people are playing the What-If game, except you're playing it terribly.

No, I'm playing the reality game and all these things have held true.

"Oh oh oh, what if he air dodges? Where's your combo now?"

You need to ask the second half of the question:

"Oh oh oh, what if he mindgames the guy into airdodging, and continues to combo him?"

To bad that airdodging has a very large amount of invincibility and the one that was hit moves away from the person that hit them.

Now we have a system that requires skill, patience, mindgames, and has no inescapable combos and has significantly less "broken" aspects to it.

I fail to see how being able to immediately attack after being hit, and having a shield system that allows you to perfect shield easily and make the approacher have the disadvantage, while at the same time having grabs that neither combo nor kill, is balenced. In other words the defender allways has the advantage. This is flawed

Like I said, I think everyone is being far too lazy. Before, you needed only to consider their DI and what to do with that. Now you need to think: Are they going to attack? Air dodge? Nothing? If they attack, what attack will it be? If it's a fair I can fast fall and use an Utilt, if it's a dair, I can IDJ and fair. If they air dodge, when will they do it? Will they do it preemptively? Will they wait for my attack? If they wait, which of my fast attacks should I use? If they don't, what slower attack or slower setup would give me the most advantage? If they do nothing, what do I do? Which attack has decayed enough to give me a combo from it? Should I set up for a move that has no decay on it at the moment?

Or, they can just airdodge, DI away from you, and land safely out of your reach. It's not that hard. After that, they just play defensively and abuse the fact that shielding>attacks, while at the same time grabs are pathetic.

In melee you had to consider, where will this attack send them if they DI, can they attack after this attack, if so does my attack outprioritize them. If not which attack should I follow up with to continue the combo, do I want to end the combo now, do I go for a tech chase, is so which tech chase. How can I hide that it's a tech chase and not a real combo, how do I make this real combo look like a tech chase, should I be popping them up or bringing them closer to the ground ect.?

You sir, are the one being lazy for not learning which DI helps you escape from combos, which strings of attacks aren't actually combos, which ones really are combos, which combos are the least lethal, which combos are the least damaging, ect. The combo system in melee was extremely lenient, and it's been pushed too far.

Boo hoo, significantly less hit stun. There are still a ton of things to consider. Brawl is not ******** because it doesn't have combos, it's just different.

And yet it's not as good as it would've been if it did have combos. The lack of combos premote turtling simply because it is the most rewarding (stategywise) style of play.
Combos brought depth simply because the fact that there were combos also allowed you to trick people into falling for things that really aren't combos. They were also very good incentive for not making mistakes, as they are the ultimate punishers (some of them anyway).

Also, I think you're missing something. Character balance and Engine mechanics are two different issues. Sure, there were only like 4-6 characters that you'd typically see in tournaments, but this is simply because those characters were great at everything. Getting hit by a 7 or 8 hit combo isn't that bad when it's from Mario, or Pikachu. However, a 7 hit combo from Marth can be quite devestating, since he combos into his kill moves quite well. Character balancing, not game mechanics.

 

[rubiksfriend]

Inescapable? WOW! I've seen so many Melee combos that are insta-death and inescapable, that it's just BROKKKKEN! Are you serious? You fail, hard, sir. Melee had the following: Wobbling (can be gotten out of early, very hard to pull off), Drillshine (virtually impossible to pull off in a match, only against certain characters). That list is so long. Maybe you're just tired of getting your a$$ comboed to death. Brawl has NO combos. Melee had two, but truly, one which was still way too hard to be reliable. I bet you hate Smash64 too.
Kudos to Sonic Wave.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Inescapable? WOW! I've seen so many Melee combos that are insta-death and inescapable, that it's just BROKKKKEN! Are you serious? You fail, hard, sir. Melee had the following: Wobbling (can be gotten out of early, very hard to pull off), Drillshine (virtually impossible to pull off in a match, only against certain characters). That list is so long. Maybe you're just tired of getting your a$$ comboed to death. Brawl has NO combos. Melee had two, but truly, one which was still way too hard to be reliable. I bet you hate Smash64 too.
Kudos to Sonic Wave.

YUP! You got it right. Drillshines and and Wobbling are the only 0->Death combos.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAmthNm61PA

 

[Zankoku]

Inescapable? WOW! I've seen so many Melee combos that are insta-death and inescapable, that it's just BROKKKKEN! Are you serious? You fail, hard, sir. Melee had the following: Wobbling (can be gotten out of early, very hard to pull off), Drillshine (virtually impossible to pull off in a match, only against certain characters). That list is so long. Maybe you're just tired of getting your a$$ comboed to death. Brawl has NO combos. Melee had two, but truly, one which was still way too hard to be reliable. I bet you hate Smash64 too.
Kudos to Sonic Wave.

Wobbling is timing-based. Hold forward/down and press A at 300 bpm. Drillshine is not only easy among any moderately skilled Fox player, but also very much escapable. If you want less chance of escape, you use the simpler waveshine. They are not "the only 0-death combos in Melee," especially since one isn't even a real one. I will agree that there are no absolute 0-deaths, though. Anything that involves a 0-death combo is either physics (falling speed, weight) based, DI based, or a combination of both.

 

[rubiksfriend]

I was referring to the drill-shine infinite. I suppose I should have made myself clear.

 

[Zankoku]

Still escapable. Ever hear of SDI? SCOTU proved a while ago that even ASDI is enough to completely escape out of the range of the Shine, in the case of all hits of the dair hitting.

 

[rubiksfriend]

Why, then, is it called an infinite? Even if it can be gotten out of, it's very difficult to both pull off and escape if it's done perfectly. Because it's so hard to do, it's relatively minor.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Why, then, is it called an infinite? Even if it can be gotten out of, it's very difficult to both pull off and escape if it's done perfectly. Because it's so hard to do, it's relatively minor.

It's a situational infinite. It is escapable, somewhat difficult to escape, but it can be done.

Anyway, a combo is a series of guaranteed hits that an opponent cannot feasibly escape from. However, there are games in which Bread and Butter combos have escape points. In that case, the word "string" is more appropriate but combo is still used. A good deal of Melee combos were strings; chaingrabs were percentage specific and could be broken out of in certain cases. Most of the feasible combos in Melee were strings and had at least one breakthrough point.

This is exacerbated in Brawl; there are even fewer true combos and the strings have more breakthrough points. This is not to say that combos and strings are dead, far from it. Extended strings are not as safe due to the greater defensive avenues for escape. They are still feasible (even with good DI), it just requires more patience and reading of DI and airdodging. The closest analogue I can make to the new "combo" system in Brawl is akin to an aerial/ground blockstring: there's always the possibility of shielding and airdodging.

Neither are the end-all be all of Brawl; if that were the case then Ganondorf would be riding top of the tiers (seeing as at this point he is one of the best out of shield characters). Shields can be pressured with proper spacing, airdodges can be baited just like in Melee. The name of the game this time is pressure: in the air it's pressure, on the ground it's pressure. Everyone who wants to string aerial hits together has to play like the illegitimate child of Melee Falcon and Jigglypuff: watch, wait, and punish accordingly.

It is possible folks: we just have to work for it. As a C.Falc and Kirby main since Melee, this isn't a new thing to me. It's high risk for high reward, and it takes a lot of effort to get to work.

 

[Shai Hulud]

The drillshine "infinite" is called an infinite because it was discovered before people really knew about Smash DI. It's not hard to smash DI Fox's dair at all, since it has multiple hits. I can drillshine cpus 0 - death pretty consistently but any decent human I can connect at most 2 - 3 drillshines before they figure out how to get out. Usually it's not even worth attempting the second drillshine.

 

[Koga]

Here's the only difference between melee combo's and Brawl Combo's: In melee, it was the comboer's responsibility to keep the combo going; in brawl, its the comboee's responsobility to get out of the combo.

nothing's changed, except you cant reherse your combo imputs anymore. the only real thing that makes the game more defensive is the new airdodge mechanic, which is hellza easy to punish.

maybe we all just suck at brawl right now, ever think of that?

 

[rubiksfriend]

Certain game physic aspects lend themselves more heavily towards combos (Smash 64), while others do not (Brawl). Maybe we'll come up with some combos in the future, but it isn't looking bright.

 

[Twin Dreams]

YUP! You got it right. Drillshines and and Wobbling are the only 0->Death combos.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAmthNm61PA

You obviously didn't see what I was getting at.


Here is a video of an inescapable combo that is neither wobbling or drill-shining.

 

[Jackal478]

* Combo

- n. - A series of hits that, once the first connects, the rest all continue to connect without giving the opponent the ability to defend at any point. Some games have moves that act as "Combo" breakers, but most do not. - v. - To perform a Combo on an opponent.

You are just talking about landing more than one hit on someone without them avoiding them or you getting hit back. That is not a combo.

That deffinition contradicts itself. "...without giving the oppenent the ability to defend at any point" then it says "...some games have moves that act as Combo Breakers.."

Wow...

OnTopic:

Brawl deffinately has combos, I look at a combo as just a chain of hits that are close together, timewise. You guys look at it like some Inescapable sequence of the same moves ending with something to finish it and maybe kill. Honestly, I thought things like the Ken combo were sorta lame, just for the main reason of maybe chopping off a kill if you time it right. And it's just not really creative in my opinion.

The funniest thing is this: I think that alot of people here don't even combo much, yet they whine about it like its the end of the world.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Brawl deffinately has combos, I look at a combo as just a chain of hits that are close together, timewise.

That's a sting buddy. It was specifically given another name just so that you can differentiate it from combos.

You guys look at it like some Inescapable sequence of the same moves

They can be different moves.

ending with something to finish it and maybe kill

Not all combos lead to kills. Some are just for damage.

Honestly, I thought things like the Ken combo were sorta lame, just for the main reason of maybe chopping off a kill if you time it right.

The Ken combo was kinda lame, simply because Marth's fair was already great and it was just too much. Little things like Mario's uair chains were fine though.

And it's just not really creative in my opinion.

Have you ever watched a combo video? And since combos involve multiple hits instead of just single attacks, technically they have much more room for creativity than anything in brawl. Just sayin'

 

[Jackal478]

That's a sting buddy. It was specifically given another name just so that you can differentiate it from combos.

They can be different moves.
Not all combos lead to kills. Some are just for damage.
The Ken combo was kinda lame, simply because Marth's fair was already great and it was just too much. Little things like Mario's uair chains were fine though.
Have you ever watched a combo video? And since combos involve multiple hits instead of just single attacks, technically they have much more room for creativity than anything in brawl. Just sayin'

Well I know Melee had soooo much more room for combos. But I'm trying to say that Brawl still has them, and more than what people think.

I just think that most people that say there are no combos are just hopping on the bandwagon. Same with tripping.

;D

 

[rubiksfriend]

How is the Ken Combo cheap? Isn't Ness's DJC Dair in original cheap? All combos take skill. Not necessarily prediction, but technical proficiency and flawless execution.

 

[Jackal478]

How is the Ken Combo cheap? Isn't Ness's DJC Dair in original cheap? All combos take skill. Not necessarily prediction, but technical proficiency and flawless execution.

How is it cheap? It's a deathcombo, do the math

You + Ken Combo = -1 Stock.

 

[JFox]

This is so easy...

Hitting an opponent in such a way that each move begins before the previous move's hitstun has worn off.

My definition agrees with the training mode's definition. The counter continues to go up so long as you continue to keep your opponent in hitstun.

Brawl has little of this, therefore it has very few combos. The only combos you can really find in brawl are the ones that the game has set up (like metaknight's foward B for example). This is because they want nubs to be able to combo with the same ability as pros, cuz they want everything to be lame....I mean fair.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

How is it cheap? It's a deathcombo, do the math

You + Ken Combo = -1 Stock.

Sounds like somebody has been on the receiving end of one too many Ken combos.

In other words:

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DarkKnight077]

The funny thing is in Brawl Marth is the only one who can actually "combo".

How's that for 10char?

 

[Froilen]

is this a combo? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyb3Uw0bD8

 

[Dash_Fox]

is this a combo? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyb3Uw0bD8

No, many fails. Did you troll this thread?

 

[Veil2222]

Sonic, Zamus, Ike... yeah, I said it, Toon Link, Marth, and Metaknight all have very close sequential hits dependent on percent and opponent DI, which for me, is the definition of a combo in brawl. There are more chars that have a few, but those are the ones I know first hand you can predict DI after connecting and follow up with 1-5 hits for anywhere from 7-30% dmg. You can either let the definition of a combo make your game, or let your game make the definition of it's own combos, one of those makes more sense to me. Adhearing to the idea of the traditional "combo" as a staple of a good game is just closed-mindedness, this should sound familiar.. you're creating a self made set of ideas towards a game that hinder you from playing it well and adapting. Drop the dogma, stop linking ken combos and dictionary.com entries, and actually think about your own inclination to what game mechanics you like for yourself.

 

[rubiksfriend]

If the Ken Combo is cheap, what are shine-spiking and chain-throwing? It's not cheap unless it's banned.

 

[DarkWarCloud]

the only thing cheap is wobbling, because it isnt as hard as waveshining/ken comboing.
but anyways... the true definition of a combo, to me, is getting multiple hits in a row without your opponet being able to do anything to counterattack. now if they have a small opening to get out of the combo, i still think it is a combo, because most people can't get through that opening.