The 'Dark Hunter' Awakens for Battle: Dark Samus ~SMASH CORRUPTED BY PHAZON

[FunAtParties]

I'm not going to tell supporters how to think, but imo if a character that clearly has a unique playstyle ends up being an echo, it's pretty much the same as them not making it in at all. Accurate representation is an important part of your character actually 'making it' imo.

 

[Diem]

I'm not going to tell supporters how to think, but imo if a character that clearly has a unique playstyle ends up being an echo, it's pretty much the same as them not making it in at all. Accurate representation is an important part of your character actually 'making it' imo.

By that logic, Ganondorf has never made it into Smash.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I was inspired to do a video on this very subject actually, if any of ya'll want to check it out.

 

[FunAtParties]

By that logic, Ganondorf has never made it into Smash.

I mean yeah pretty much

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

So, if Dark Samus ends up being an Echo, how do you think they’ll modify her attack properties to slightly set her apart from Samus?

Using Dark Pit as a precedent, I’m guessing the changes would all be with knockback tragectory and damage/charge-time for her projectiles. Maybe her version of missles could aesthically look like a burst of Phazon that’s faster but does less damage, or vice versa. Or her charge shot could be faster with less knockback?

 

[IsmaR]

Using her Assist Trophy as a basis would probably be the easiest/most obvious thing.

All fire-based attacks obviously being changed to Phazon (mix of electric/aura/darkness effects)

Up Smash: Literally this

Down Tilt (or potentially down B depending on how far they want to draw the "Echoes are exactly the same minus 1 or 2 things" line):

https://pa1.narvii.com/6859/51115450629f8b4c04b2136e0947ed91bc9817d0_hq.gif

If it were a special, I would obviously say give it the property to reflect projectiles, as well as the i-frames/start up as above, but obviously not if it was a normal.

Neutral Special: A chargeable shot, but instead of being one big blast, it's instead her scattershot variant of the Power Beam.

Fully charged would do this:
http://78.media.tumblr.com/11cde603058190fd03de7246b3925eec/tumblr_n3r8weEAKB1qaz4i5o1_500.gif

Uncharged would allow single shot bursts:
https://pa1.narvii.com/6315/68e9db9b34e3f47cabd956ee0ab645c5d2b79217_hq.gif

It's obviously difficult to say they would stray that much if it was an Echo Fighter vs semi-clone. I'll update this later with more images, but my ideas for other moves including Boost Ball (for down B), "Phazon Spread Missile" (from her 2nd boss fight in MP2) for side B, the shinespark like tackle she does as her Up B (which could even just use Samus' own custom Up B 3 as a basis, in that it pops them up for a stronger single hit instead of multiple like the Screw Attack).

 

[Ridley_Prime]

She did have a phazon charge beam during her 2nd fight in MP2, but I'd still take the scattershot over it any day of the week, though it did have an effect of temporarily freezing you if I recall right, kinda like the dark beam.

And yeah, Phazon missile would be a good variant for the side special and boost ball for down special should definitely happen. Her up special is definitely trickier to come up with on the spot, but I guess I'd take apex screw attack/screw attack #3 if nothing else.

And with Ridley's final smash getting to be as over the top as it was, I think it'd still be fair for Dark Samus' to be a little cinematic of her summoning a Leviathan and have it crashing down on the stage, though I realize as an Echo she'd be less likely/prioritized to get something unique like that... Maybe as an alternative have one of her giant Phazon barriers that temporarily protects her from damage while hurting others as its width/mass slowly expands.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

So, if Dark Samus ends up being an Echo, how do you think they’ll modify her attack properties to slightly set her apart from Samus?

Using Dark Pit as a precedent, I’m guessing the changes would all be with knockback tragectory and damage/charge-time for her projectiles. Maybe her version of missles could aesthically look like a burst of Phazon that’s faster but does less damage, or vice versa. Or her charge shot could be faster with less knockback?

I kinda like the idea of a less floaty Samus who rewards close combat more, I admit that it doesn't make a ton of sense as Dark Samus can literally float in the Prime games and uses a ton of projectiles in her fights, so logically she'd be on the opposite end of the spectrum, but from a gameplay perspective it'd be a very interesting change.

Alternatively her projectiles/blast attacks could deal damage over time, like when you stand in Phazon in the Prime games.

 

[meleebrawler]

I kinda like the idea of a less floaty Samus who rewards close combat more, I admit that it doesn't make a ton of sense as Dark Samus can literally float in the Prime games and uses a ton of projectiles in her fights, so logically she'd be on the opposite end of the spectrum, but from a gameplay perspective it'd be a very interesting change.

Alternatively her projectiles/blast attacks could deal damage over time, like when you stand in Phazon in the Prime games.

Maybe it's just me, but in a lot of my fights with her it feels like she often tries to close in and hurt you with her shield on purpose.

Inklings have their ink, Dark Samus could indeed have corruption, giving opponents increased offence but drastically lowered defence as reference to how weak Phazon is to itself.

Phazon, in many more ways than one, is a true double-edged sword.

 

[SEGAGameBoy]

The only Metroid game I've played is Samus Returns. It's great but very hard. I'm not sure but, I'm planning on getting Metroid Prime: Federation Force for my 3DS. I support!

 

[Aetheri]

The only Metroid game I've played is Samus Returns. It's great but very hard. I'm not sure but, I'm planning on getting Metroid Prime: Federation Force for my 3DS. I support!

While not an inherently bad game, Fed Force is best played as a multiplayer with friends who also have the game. Otherwise it'll be a fairly tricky game to get into.

And I wouldn't count on its online having a lot of players.

 

[Diem]

I mean yeah pretty much

So then at that point, totally accurate representation is a moot point. To quote a guy from the Simon Belmont thread:

His moves are all made up
The duck and the dog are enemies, and unrelated to Hogan Alley
All made up moves
They don't work as a couple in the game, and don't shoot ice from their hand
Can't use OK Starstorm
All made up moves since (s)he doesn't fight in Ocarina
:ultrobinCan't use Nosferatu
Can't use the Divine Spells from Ocarina
Tell me the game where his fireballs float mid-air and he launches himself against a wall

And

In which game can he summon all the different Mega Men's in order to attack?

It's not like every character in the game is 100% faithful to their original appearances. It's not always possible, or otherwise practical. Captain Falcon and Fox are pilots in their games, not fighters, yet they were put into the original Smash with completely made up moves. For them to be accurately represented, they'd need to be flying around the stage in the Blue Falcon and Arwing.

So if Dark Samus is just an aesthetically different version of Samus, I won't be broken up about it. I would still take even just an alt costume. In the best of worlds, of course a fully unique moveset would be amazing, but that should've happened in Brawl, or at the least in Smash 4, but it didn't. For Dark Samus to be a completely unique character in this game, after Metroid already got Ridley, is wishful thinking.

This whole subforum is filled with dozens of threads where people are hoping for their favorite characters to make the narrow cut for this game. Many of them are still Assist Trophies. Dark Samus is (or was, depending on how you interpret the circumstantial evidence) one of the most unlikely for several reasons. If Dark Samus makes it in instead of Lyn, Waluigi, Ashley, Isaac, Krystal, Midna, Skull Kid, Shadow, or Tingle, even as an Echo Fighter, that's huge.

 

[StormC]

I'm not going to tell supporters how to think, but imo if a character that clearly has a unique playstyle ends up being an echo, it's pretty much the same as them not making it in at all. Accurate representation is an important part of your character actually 'making it' imo.

Despite your username, I don’t get the impression that you actually are fun at parties.

 

[FunAtParties]

Despite your username, I don’t get the impression that you actually are fun at parties.

I knew I shouldn't have carried this username here.

So anyway what exactly is the issue with what I said? Obviously no one finds is preferable for their character to get a moveset that doesn't represent them well, but many will take it because they want the character in any way they can get them. I don't agree with this idea, because to me, the character is more than just a name and style, it's their personality, attacks, etc... Getting it all right is difficult, but when it comes to game characters the least that can be done is putting in the most important elements to their character. Echos don't do this, it rips off another character for convenience sake, and makes them a glorified alt swap, carrying over no elements of their character at all.

I'm willing to hear out a new perspective, but all the response I get are dismissive ones like this.

 

[meleebrawler]

I knew I shouldn't have carried this username here.

So anyway what exactly is the issue with what I said? Obviously no one finds is preferable for their character to get a moveset that doesn't represent them well, but many will take it because they want the character in any way they can get them. I don't agree with this idea, because to me, the character is more than just a name and style, it's their personality, attacks, etc... Getting it all right is difficult, but when it comes to game characters the least that can be done is putting in the most important elements to their character. Echos don't do this, it rips off another character for convenience sake, and makes them a glorified alt swap, carrying over no elements of their character at all.

I'm willing to hear out a new perspective, but all the response I get are dismissive ones like this.

Protip: if you enter a forum/thread in support of something and bring in a counterargument against it, expect backlash.

 

[FunAtParties]

So then at that point, totally accurate representation is a moot point. To quote a guy from the Simon Belmont thread:



It's not like every character in the game is 100% faithful to their original appearances. It's not always possible, or otherwise practical. Captain Falcon and Fox are pilots in their games, not fighters, yet they were put into the original Smash with completely made up moves. For them to be accurately represented, they'd need to be flying around the stage in the Blue Falcon and Arwing.

So if Dark Samus is just an aesthetically different version of Samus, I won't be broken up about it. I would still take even just an alt costume. In the best of worlds, of course a fully unique moveset would be amazing, but that should've happened in Brawl, or at the least in Smash 4, but it didn't. For Dark Samus to be a completely unique character in this game, after Metroid already got Ridley, is wishful thinking.

This whole subforum is filled with dozens of threads where people are hoping for their favorite characters to make the narrow cut for this game. Many of them are still Assist Trophies. Dark Samus is (or was, depending on how you interpret the circumstantial evidence) one of the most unlikely for several reasons. If Dark Samus makes it in instead of Lyn, Waluigi, Ashley, Isaac, Krystal, Midna, Skull Kid, Shadow, or Tingle, even as an Echo Fighter, that's huge.

It's near impossible for characters in Smash to be 100% faithful to their first incarnation. I'm not debating that, but the least that can be done is capturing what makes them, them. A lot of the examples listed are poor arguments, characters with made up movesets are effectively blank slates, and have room to work with. For example, making Fox fight like an Arwing is the closest thing you can get to making him "accurate".

Dorf didn't do anything close to this per the first example. He was a rushed mess, and continues to be a slightly less rushed mess, who is very loosely loyal to very specific and random moments to his many incarnations.

Dark Samus has clear aspects to them that can make it into Smash without much issue. I see no issue with making them a semi-clone, but full-on echo is lazy, disloyal, and tbh I don't think it should be as embraced as it is.

Protip: if you enter a forum/thread in support of something and bring in a counterargument against it, expect backlash.

I expect counterarguments back, not quips. We're in a discussion form, not a comedy cemetery.

 

[Diem]

It's near impossible for characters in Smash to be 100% faithful to their first incarnation. I'm not debating that, but the least that can be done is capturing what makes them, them. A lot of the examples listed are poor arguments, characters with made up movesets are effectively blank slates, and have room to work with. For example, making Fox fight like an Arwing is the closest thing you can get to making him "accurate".

Dorf didn't do anything close to this per the first example. He was a rushed mess, and continues to be a slightly less rushed mess, who is very loosely loyal to very specific and random moments to his many incarnations.

Dark Samus has clear aspects to them that can make it into Smash without much issue. I see no issue with making them a semi-clone, but full-on echo is lazy, disloyal, and tbh I don't think it should be as embraced as it is.

Despite Ganondorf's inaccurate moveset, many people still love playing as him. His players' only consistent dissatisfaction was that he didn't ever use a sword, now he uses a sword for his Smash attacks, and people are ecstatic, as small a change as that is. By now, most players have gotten used to Ganondorf's moveset and enjoy it, inaccurate or no. Similar to how all clones and semi-clones have just stayed that way, because if you change the whole character, then you risk alienating the people who liked the playstyle, even if it's not tapping into their true potential. For every person who is disappointed that Ganondorf's still mostly the same, there's hundreds that have either always liked or grown to like his monstrous attacks as they are.

And if you asked Ganondorf players whether they'd want Ganondorf to still have the same moves or be removed from the game entirely, you can expect what their answer would be. Same for all the echo fighters and semi-clones that are coming back this game. Most people were sure that they'd all get cut, and that characters like Pichu and Wolf would never be seen again. Instead, they're just happy the characters are back at all. Young Link has the potential to have a Majora's Mask moveset with mask transformations and abilities to make him really unique and standout, but he's still the same. Most people just think it's awesome he's back. The only people I've seen be dissatisfied with Smash Ultimate's roster are the people who barely play Smash and wanted 2/3 of the characters to be cut so they could add a bunch of new fighters and no clones.

Really, as long as the character is fun to play, that's all that matters. I know Dark Samus with a totally unique moveset is available as a Brawl mod, and Chibi-Robo (my other major want) is playable in Super Smash Flash, but both of those lack the feel and polish that can only exist in a genuine Smash game. There's a reason most people stick to official characters and versions of the game, with Project M being the exception. If a character's moveset is super unique and accurate, but not fun to play, then it's pointless.

Yeah, Dark Samus as an echo fighter would be disloyal in the sense that it's obvious there's untapped potential for the character, and it'd be a unique and interesting fighter if given the chance. Shadow the Hedgehog being an echo fighter would also mean we wouldn't get to see him shoot aliens with an MP5, sadly. But more echo fighters are inevitable, otherwise they wouldn't have labeled them and announced Daisy like they did. Some people are running with it in absurd and excessive ways, with little regard as to how much sense the echo character would actually make. At least Dark Samus is one of the more reasonable options, and would show some love to a franchise that hasn't gotten much in the past, even if they didn't go as far as they could or should've.

After all, Sakurai is the same guy that added Fire Emblem characters to Smash before their game was even released/released in the West--twice. And each game added one or more new Fire Emblem characters, while other franchises got snubbed. By Ultimate, Fire Emblem has four totally unique fighters, a clone, and an echo fighter. Yet despite all that favoritism and representation, Fire Emblem fans are still earnestly requesting more characters like Celica and Chrom, even as echo fighters. Like, is 6 characters not enough? Give some other franchises like Donkey Kong or Metroid a chance for a change. We already have a Marth clone and echo, do we need more? I'd rather have Dark Samus as an echo than another Fire Emblem echo. Maybe Sakurai realized he went a little too far with Fire Emblem (I have to imagine he's become aware of it one way or another) and has neglected Metroid for a while, so he gave us Ridley, and maybe might throw in Dark Samus as an extra bonus to make up for it.

At this point, it's all just speculation. It's entirely possible Dark Samus is still an Assist Trophy, but just hasn't been shown yet. It's entirely possible that Dark Samus is a 100% unique character, though that's the unlikeliest outcome. The other two options are echo fighter or semi-clone. It'll be something or nothing, for better and for worse. Either this is one of the biggest Smash teases since Ridley in the Melee trailer/intro, or Metroid gets two new characters in the same game.

Who knows. I actually voted for Dark Samus in the ballot, since I figured Chibi-Robo wasn't popular enough to warrant a character at the time, and Ridley had been vocally shot down twice. I said in my vote that Dark Samus's assist trophy showed the potential for a whole unique fighter, as opposed to needing her to be a clone. Maybe, somehow, my vote landed in his lap and inspired him, and in a few months we'll see a second completely original Metroid character join the roster. Or it got buried underneath thousands of requests for three more Fire Emblem characters. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[FunAtParties]

Despite Ganondorf's inaccurate moveset, many people still love playing as him. His players' only consistent dissatisfaction was that he didn't ever use a sword, now he uses a sword for his Smash attacks, and people are ecstatic, as small a change as that is. By now, most players have gotten used to Ganondorf's moveset and enjoy it, inaccurate or no. Similar to how all clones and semi-clones have just stayed that way, because if you change the whole character, then you risk alienating the people who liked the playstyle, even if it's not tapping into their true potential. For every person who is disappointed that Ganondorf's still mostly the same, there's hundreds that have either always liked or grown to like his monstrous attacks as they are.

And if you asked Ganondorf players whether they'd want Ganondorf to still have the same moves or be removed from the game entirely, you can expect what their answer would be. Same for all the echo fighters and semi-clones that are coming back this game. Most people were sure that they'd all get cut, and that characters like Pichu and Wolf would never be seen again. Instead, they're just happy the characters are back at all. Young Link has the potential to have a Majora's Mask moveset with mask transformations and abilities to make him really unique and standout, but he's still the same. Most people just think it's awesome he's back. The only people I've seen be dissatisfied with Smash Ultimate's roster are the people who barely play Smash and wanted 2/3 of the characters to be cut so they could add a bunch of new fighters and no clones.

Really, as long as the character is fun to play, that's all that matters. I know Dark Samus with a totally unique moveset is available as a Brawl mod, and Chibi-Robo (my other major want) is playable in Super Smash Flash, but both of those lack the feel and polish that can only exist in a genuine Smash game. There's a reason most people stick to official characters and versions of the game, with Project M being the exception. If a character's moveset is super unique and accurate, but not fun to play, then it's pointless.

Yeah, Dark Samus as an echo fighter would be disloyal in the sense that it's obvious there's untapped potential for the character, and it'd be a unique and interesting fighter if given the chance. Shadow the Hedgehog being an echo fighter would also mean we wouldn't get to see him shoot aliens with an MP5, sadly. But more echo fighters are inevitable, otherwise they wouldn't have labeled them and announced Daisy like they did. Some people are running with it in absurd and excessive ways, with little regard as to how much sense the echo character would actually make. At least Dark Samus is one of the more reasonable options, and would show some love to a franchise that hasn't gotten much in the past, even if they didn't go as far as they could or should've.

After all, Sakurai is the same guy that added Fire Emblem characters to Smash before their game was even released/released in the West--twice. And each game added one or more new Fire Emblem characters, while other franchises got snubbed. By Ultimate, Fire Emblem has four totally unique fighters, a clone, and an echo fighter. Yet despite all that favoritism and representation, Fire Emblem fans are still earnestly requesting more characters like Celica and Chrom, even as echo fighters. Like, is 6 characters not enough? Give some other franchises like Donkey Kong or Metroid a chance for a change. We already have a Marth clone and echo, do we need more? I'd rather have Dark Samus as an echo than another Fire Emblem echo. Maybe Sakurai realized he went a little too far with Fire Emblem (I have to imagine he's become aware of it one way or another) and has neglected Metroid for a while, so he gave us Ridley, and maybe might throw in Dark Samus as an extra bonus to make up for it.

At this point, it's all just speculation. It's entirely possible Dark Samus is still an Assist Trophy, but just hasn't been shown yet. It's entirely possible that Dark Samus is a 100% unique character, though that's the unlikeliest outcome. The other two options are echo fighter or semi-clone. It'll be something or nothing, for better and for worse. Either this is one of the biggest Smash teases since Ridley in the Melee trailer/intro, or Metroid gets two new characters in the same game.

Who knows. I actually voted for Dark Samus in the ballot, since I figured Chibi-Robo wasn't popular enough to warrant a character at the time, and Ridley had been vocally shot down twice. I said in my vote that Dark Samus's assist trophy showed the potential for a whole unique fighter, as opposed to needing her to be a clone. Maybe, somehow, my vote landed in his lap and inspired him, and in a few months we'll see a second completely original Metroid character join the roster. Or it got buried underneath thousands of requests for three more Fire Emblem characters. We'll have to wait and see.

I appreciate the response.

I still disagree about Dorf. Since it's off-topic I won't get too much into it, but the idea is many didn't even care for his sword, and wanted him to be based on his OoT incarnation, so for many it doesn't change much. It's more like Dorf has a lot of fans, who feel all kinds of different ways.

I will say that you're right that many would be upset if he saw significant changes at this point, because many are too accustomed to the Smash version of the character. This is my biggest worry for most echos tbh, as many see it as a stepping stone into the game and 'changes can be made later'. I feel like this is a little naive based on characters like Ganondorf who has been said by Sakurai himself to be 'too beloved' in his current state, back at a time when Ganondorf's design most definitely saw way more criticism than love.

Anyway for your sake, I hope you get the character you're hoping for, no matter how that is.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I will say that you're right that many would be upset if he saw significant changes at this point, because many are too accustomed to the Smash version of the character. This is my biggest worry for most echos tbh, as many see it as a stepping stone into the game and 'changes can be made later'. I feel like this is a little naive based on characters like Ganondorf who has been said by Sakurai himself to be 'too beloved' in his current state, back at a time when Ganondorf's design most definitely saw way more criticism than love.

I also like to see clones, or Echoes, as stepping stones. Yes, Ganon took 4 games just to get some sword moves, but he’s more the exception to the rule for me. Luigi, Dr. Mario, Roy, Falco, Wolf, Young and Toon Link, they all managed to slowly differentiate from the characters they were based on (I’m not counting characters like Lucas and Pichu who were different enough from day one).

I’d love to see Dark Samus as the unique character she deserves to be, but if she makes it as an Echo Fighter, she either A. Gets a moveset makeover the next game B. Stays the same or C. Gets cut. Either way I still get to play as her, in two of those options I get to play as her in the sequel too, and there is a slim chance I get to play as her as an original newcomer.

 

[FunAtParties]

I also like to see clones, or Echoes, as stepping stones. Yes, Ganon took 4 games just to get some sword moves, but he’s more the exception to the rule for me. Luigi, Dr. Mario, Roy, Falco, Wolf, Young and Toon Link, they all managed to slowly differentiate from the characters they were based on (I’m not counting characters like Lucas and Pichu who were different enough from day one).

I’d love to see Dark Samus as the unique character she deserves to be, but if she makes it as an Echo Fighter, she either A. Gets a moveset makeover the next game B. Stays the same or C. Gets cut. Either way I still get to play as her, in two of those options I get to play as her in the sequel too, and there is a slim chance I get to play as her as an original newcomer.

This is a separate argument, but even for characters that get slowly but surely changed doesn't mean they get everything they need. Some characters with completely original movesets have a fair share of their fans not happy with how they turned out for example. While a lot of it is unproductive whining, I don't think anyone could criticize Wario fans during Smash 4 for wanting him to have Shoulder Bash.

Anyway small tweaks can make any character play different, but it's still a rare occasion to where they make them feel right. Idk much about the Dark Samus crowd wants them to be, but essentially most of the characters you listed are still just slower/faster versions of the characters they're imitating. Very few characters got wholesale changes, even where it made sense, because simply put, these characters are meant to be easy to make. You say this is acceptable for you, so this shouldn't be an issue, but I'd hardly put my faith in the long con of slow improvements especially now where there's so many characters, and everyone wants theirs back.

Anyway I see y'alls point. Dark Samus as an echo is better than nothing. I'm not trying to kill the vibe here no more, good luck you guys.

 

[Lisbon Mapping]

I support Dark Samus! In a perfect world, Metroid will have 5 reps in Ultimate.

 

[Space Detective]

I support Dark Samus! In a perfect world, Metroid will have 5 reps in Ultimate.

Who's the fifth one you have in mind?

Also, hi peoples. Count me in as a supporter, Dark Samus is in my top 5 most wanteds.

 

[Lisbon Mapping]

Who's the fifth one you have in mind?

Also, hi peoples. Count me in as a supporter, Dark Samus is in my top 5 most wanteds.

Sylux as DLC closer to or after the release of Metroid Prime 4

 

[Pikmin-ism42]

What with how Dark Samus's assist trophy behaved in ssb4, I'm fairly certain Sakurai is aware of the differences between her and regular Samus. I feel like this means we should at the very least get a Samus semi-clone (complete with the shrapnel beam and phazon tendrils) instead of a boring ol' Echo fighter, despite how fitting that title would be.

 

[ChronoBound]

Yes, because Dark Samus is a great example of being more realistic, when like Ridley, she missed two good occasions of when she ought to have been in (would say Brawl probably would've been her best time though when the Prime trilogy was still fresh).

If we're being honest, Sylux is the only viable one left to realistically hope for, having a guaranteed future in his own series at the moment, but that's no reason not to still support the other two if you really want them.

What a difference only a few months made. Prior to Ultimate unveil, most people thought Ridley and Dark Samus would never ever become playable in Smash Bros. Now Ridley has been one of the three only newcomers confirmed so far for a Smash Bros. game only four months away from release, and Dark Samus actually looks plausible and perhaps even has a decent chance.

Dark Samus' best shot would be as a last minute clone imo, it's the one way I imagine a less relevant character might make it, although I imagine she'd have to be closer to the Lucas/Luigi/Wolf category than the Dr. Mario/Dark Pit/Lucina one, which might make them look elsewhere first since she'd take more work.

Fully agree that if not Ridley then Dark Samus would be the best Metroid addition. Sylux wasn't anything special even in Prime Hunters, and although his role is obviously going to get much bigger in Prime 4 I'm not at all sold on him as a new rival to Samus, I just don't see how he'll bring anything unique to the table when his only two characteristics are basically looking cool and hating the Federation, which is hardly anything noteworthy in Metroid. He has a lot to live up to in succeeding Dark Samus at least.

Prime 2 and Prime 3 really made Dark Samus. In Prime 2, she was the mysterious stalker who both wanted to torment you and had her own agenda. She was one of the many parties that made up Prime 2's plot (Samus, Dark Samus, Space Pirates, Ing Horde, Luminoth, Federation Marines), and had no allegiance to any of them and was simply a roaming piece of the game board. Prime 2 was perhaps the most underrated game in the Metroid series, and is easily analogous to Majora's Mask. Dark Samus's presence and boss fights were strong points to the game despite such a generic sounding name and design to the character.

For Prime 3, the character radically shifted from a mysterious doppelganger who was not at the forefront of the main conflict (Luminoth vs. Ing), to taking command of the Space Pirates and being calculating strategist. Dark Samus was probably the grandest villain ever to manifest in the Metroid series, with her desire to propagate phazon throughout the cosmos and take her place as as a god-king among all sapient races (look what happened to the Space Pirates and Prime 3 Hunters, Dark Samus would have quite literally become a living god had her plans succeeded).

Dark Samus was a lot more interesting as a character than what her name implies, and she provided some of the best boss fights in the entire Metroid series.

I will probably just die from hype if both Dark Samus AND Ridley get into Smash...

Well Ridley is already here, and Dark Samus has a decent chance. We shall see what happens. It is surreal to think that Metroid could very well end up with four slots when Ultimate releases (and DK still stuck with only two for whatever reason).

Dark Samus as an Echo... did they plan this from the very start?

Funny how DS went from having nearly no hope to being one of the few left with hope. :D

Dark Samus also possessed an attack in Prime 3 where she created "echoes" (literally the word used) of herself.

I would not say Dark Samus is among the few left with hope. There are quite a few characters that make a lot of sense as echoes Chrom (Robin's Final Smash is among the few not shown, and Ike's Chrom palette is now missing) and Shadow (Knuckles was added as a Sonic Assist Trophy, and the Shadow one is now missing) being the other two there seem to be bread crumbs for. Right now we have no idea how many slots are left for non-echo newcomers. We are about four months away from the game's release and still only have two non-echo newcomers confirmed. It might be that we have more echo newcomers than non-echo newcomers for Ultimate.

Yeah. Times change. Dark Samus went from having absolutely no chance to being all but confirmed. She would be a great choice for an Echo.

It really is extraordinary how much that character's prospects changed, and for Ridley as well. Back in November 2014, Sakurai said Ridley would pretty much not work as a playable fighter, and only a year later (when he put forth the first design document) he did a 180 on his thoughts on Ridley and he ended up being one of the first two true newcomers unveiled for Ultimate.

Dark Samus's best chances for entering were ten years ago, and now it looks like she might actually have a chance. If only Isaac also was given such a second wind.

I voted for Dark Samus in the ballot, as I've wanted her since Brawl. I'll take an Echo Fighter over nothing. Hell, I'd even have taken an alt costume for Samus, as odd as that would be given the animations and such. So an Echo Fighter is a step up, since it'll at least be aesthetically different in some major ways.

I figured Pichu, Doc, and Young Link weren't echoes because they differed in size and some elements of the moveset. Just like how Falco isn't an echo fighter now, but he was back in Melee, before they tweaked him over time to make him more distinct. Meanwhile, Link, Pikachu, and Mario have had some changes to their moveset since Melee, so the old Melee clones are no longer clones, since they still have their old moves.

However, I didn't expect Echo Fighters to be that similar. I wasn't familiar with the differences between Marth/Lucina or Pit/Dark Pit, so I wasn't sure if speed, weight, and other numbers were the same. Makes sense that they are, as that's a pretty major thing that requires fine-tuning, but it's disappointing that if Dark Samus is an Echo Fighter, there won't be any weight/speed differences.

I do think that we might be able to expect her to float, at least when dashing. We already have Cloud who floats when he dashes, I figure they could use the same principle on Dark Samus.

Even though Dark Samus could very easily have become a semi-clone (there is enough just from her Assist Trophy appearance), or even an entirely unique character, it is miraculously Dark Samus would even happen in the present situation, especially considering one of the few slot was already utilized for a Metroid character in this game. Dark Samus getting in as even an echo in 2018 is extremely fortunate for the character given her circumstances.

As for echoes, echoes are extremely cloney clones. More similar than Dr. Mario and Mario were in Melee. Their differences are very minor. They have the same weight, knockback, and speed as the character that they were cloned from. Lucina's difference is that she has no tipper and does the same damage all across from her sword, and her other differences seem to be minor frame data stuff. Dark Pit's differences are possessing a different Final Smash, his neutral special having different properties, his side special having differing properties, and his side A-tilt having much less knockback. That is it. We do not know how Daisy differs from Peach yet.

Echoes are characters barely removed from alternate costumes. They have their own taunts and victory animations, but otherwise play largely the same as their originals, with even Melee clones have much more of an identity than the echoes seem to.

Dark Samus will probably have the scattershot (one of her main attacks as an Assist Trophy) as her version of Samus's neutral B (what Dark Samus will fire when she charges up her neutral B). Other than that, she might have slightly different properties for her missiles, and maybe for an A-move or two.

I know as well as anyone that being a carbon copy clone is far from an accurate representation for Dark Samus, but with Ultimate there are two factors to take into consideration; 1) lack of time for newcomers due to the emphasis on bringing back all old fighters and 2) Dark Samus's body type is nearly identical in both size and shape as Samus. Making her a (no pun intended) prime candidate to be added as an echo fighter.

The best that I can hope for is that with the differences she has to Samus she'd be given a bit more time to refine her as her own character while still sharing a lot of Samus's attacks and animations. I really that if she is added Sakurai at least takes the time to explore more of her unique abilities but as of now I will gladly take an echo fighter over nothing at all...

Dark Samus is really fortunate to be getting a second wind at all, and even then, Dark Samus is far from a sure fire thing to actually happen. Dark Pit is marginally different (with only a few of his moves given different properties), while Lucina was given a gimmick that makes her noticeably different from Marth (even though all of her moves have the same properties as Marth). We shall see what happens with other echoes.

Well, of course Dark Samus shouldn't be an Echo Fighter. Her Assist Trophy shows obvious potential for a totally new moveset, as there's more differences between her and Samus than there are similarities. No one should be an Echo Fighter, really. When has Daisy ever used turnips?

But it's going to be the difference between something or nothing. Before Ridley was added, I thought that Dark Samus was the only viable Metroid rep left, as the issues holding Ridley back didn't apply to her. That's why, three years ago, I voted for her in the ballot, because I wanted a new Metroid rep and thought she was the best chance with Ridley being, at the time, disqualified. But now that there's Ridley, an antagonist that's appeared in almost every game and has been wanted since before Dark Samus even existed, giving Metroid a unique character at last, chances for Dark Samus, who's appeared in only two, are much slimmer.

Despite what some people want to believe, Dark Samus is dead and gone; Phazon was eradicated from the galaxy at the end of Metroid Prime 3. The prime (heh) opportunity for her appearance would have been in Brawl, but instead we got ZSS. So she's only getting less relevant as the days go by. If she is actually playable, it'll be a miracle. This is why some people sometimes suggest Sylux over Dark Samus, given that he's still alive and is supposed to play a major role in the upcoming games, but the problem is that his roles so far haven't been significant, and it's hard to justify "Oh he's not really worthy of a spot now, but someday he will be!"

Well said.

So then at that point, totally accurate representation is a moot point. To quote a guy from the Simon Belmont thread:



It's not like every character in the game is 100% faithful to their original appearances. It's not always possible, or otherwise practical. Captain Falcon and Fox are pilots in their games, not fighters, yet they were put into the original Smash with completely made up moves. For them to be accurately represented, they'd need to be flying around the stage in the Blue Falcon and Arwing.

So if Dark Samus is just an aesthetically different version of Samus, I won't be broken up about it. I would still take even just an alt costume. In the best of worlds, of course a fully unique moveset would be amazing, but that should've happened in Brawl, or at the least in Smash 4, but it didn't. For Dark Samus to be a completely unique character in this game, after Metroid already got Ridley, is wishful thinking.

This whole subforum is filled with dozens of threads where people are hoping for their favorite characters to make the narrow cut for this game. Many of them are still Assist Trophies. Dark Samus is (or was, depending on how you interpret the circumstantial evidence) one of the most unlikely for several reasons. If Dark Samus makes it in instead of Lyn, Waluigi, Ashley, Isaac, Krystal, Midna, Skull Kid, Shadow, or Tingle, even as an Echo Fighter, that's huge.

Again well said.

If Dark Samus does end up getting in, I will write a large write up on her inclusion. She is actually a major actor for the Metroid series particularly for the Prime trilogy. If she actually does end up getting in, the circumstances she ended up overcoming will have been absolutely incredible.

 

[Buzzwole]

I think echo characters should be seen as compromises.
I'd argue that any character could be given a unique moveset if they had unlimited time, money, and energy.

Dark Samus is an incredibly important part of the Metroid series and absolutely deserves a spot in Smash. There are a zillion ways that she (it?) could be made into a unique character, but if I had to choose between an Echo Dark Samus or no Dark Samus at all, I'd pick the echo.

 

[Diem]

What a difference only a few months made. Prior to Ultimate unveil, most people thought Ridley and Dark Samus would never ever become playable in Smash Bros. Now Ridley has been one of the three only newcomers confirmed so far for a Smash Bros. game only four months away from release, and Dark Samus actually looks plausible and perhaps even has a decent chance.

Prime 2 and Prime 3 really made Dark Samus. In Prime 2, she was the mysterious stalker who both wanted to torment you and had her own agenda. She was one of the many parties that made up Prime 2's plot (Samus, Dark Samus, Space Pirates, Ing Horde, Luminoth, Federation Marines), and had no allegiance to any of them and was simply a roaming piece of the game board. Prime 2 was perhaps the most underrated game in the Metroid series, and is easily analogous to Majora's Mask. Dark Samus's presence and boss fights were strong points to the game despite such a generic sounding name and design to the character.

For Prime 3, the character radically shifted from a mysterious doppelganger who was not at the forefront of the main conflict (Luminoth vs. Ing), to taking command of the Space Pirates and being calculating strategist. Dark Samus was probably the grandest villain ever to manifest in the Metroid series, with her desire to propagate phazon throughout the cosmos and take her place as as a god-king among all sapient races (look what happened to the Space Pirates and Prime 3 Hunters, Dark Samus would have quite literally become a living god had her plans succeeded).

Dark Samus was a lot more interesting as a character than what her name implies, and she provided some of the best boss fights in the entire Metroid series.

Well Ridley is already here, and Dark Samus has a decent chance. We shall see what happens. It is surreal to think that Metroid could very well end up with four slots when Ultimate releases (and DK still stuck with only two for whatever reason).

Dark Samus also possessed an attack in Prime 3 where she created "echoes" (literally the word used) of herself.

I would not say Dark Samus is among the few left with hope. There are quite a few characters that make a lot of sense as echoes Chrom (Robin's Final Smash is among the few not shown, and Ike's Chrom palette is now missing) and Shadow (Knuckles was added as a Sonic Assist Trophy, and the Shadow one is now missing) being the other two there seem to be bread crumbs for. Right now we have no idea how many slots are left for non-echo newcomers. We are about four months away from the game's release and still only have two non-echo newcomers confirmed. It might be that we have more echo newcomers than non-echo newcomers for Ultimate.

It really is extraordinary how much that character's prospects changed, and for Ridley as well. Back in November 2014, Sakurai said Ridley would pretty much not work as a playable fighter, and only a year later (when he put forth the first design document) he did a 180 on his thoughts on Ridley and he ended up being one of the first two true newcomers unveiled for Ultimate.

Dark Samus's best chances for entering were ten years ago, and now it looks like she might actually have a chance. If only Isaac also was given such a second wind.

Even though Dark Samus could very easily have become a semi-clone (there is enough just from her Assist Trophy appearance), or even an entirely unique character, it is miraculously Dark Samus would even happen in the present situation, especially considering one of the few slot was already utilized for a Metroid character in this game. Dark Samus getting in as even an echo in 2018 is extremely fortunate for the character given her circumstances.

As for echoes, echoes are extremely cloney clones. More similar than Dr. Mario and Mario were in Melee. Their differences are very minor. They have the same weight, knockback, and speed as the character that they were cloned from. Lucina's difference is that she has no tipper and does the same damage all across from her sword, and her other differences seem to be minor frame data stuff. Dark Pit's differences are possessing a different Final Smash, his neutral special having different properties, his side special having differing properties, and his side A-tilt having much less knockback. That is it. We do not know how Daisy differs from Peach yet.

Echoes are characters barely removed from alternate costumes. They have their own taunts and victory animations, but otherwise play largely the same as their originals, with even Melee clones have much more of an identity than the echoes seem to.

Dark Samus will probably have the scattershot (one of her main attacks as an Assist Trophy) as her version of Samus's neutral B (what Dark Samus will fire when she charges up her neutral B). Other than that, she might have slightly different properties for her missiles, and maybe for an A-move or two.

Dark Samus is really fortunate to be getting a second wind at all, and even then, Dark Samus is far from a sure fire thing to actually happen. Dark Pit is marginally different (with only a few of his moves given different properties), while Lucina was given a gimmick that makes her noticeably different from Marth (even though all of her moves have the same properties as Marth). We shall see what happens with other echoes.

Well said.

Again well said.

If Dark Samus does end up getting in, I will write a large write up on her inclusion. She is actually a major actor for the Metroid series particularly for the Prime trilogy. If she actually does end up getting in, the circumstances she ended up overcoming will have been absolutely incredible.

I'd be interested to see what you write up about Dark Samus. I read your Ridley story, and it inspired me to do my own write-up for Dark Samus, should that dream become a reality. I wasn't really on message boards or fighting in the trenches for it to happen, so it's not as impressive as your story.

Because for me, Dark Samus is my Ridley. I was like six or seven years old when I played the first Metroid Prime back in 2003, I saw Meta Ridley in the beginning, but I never made it very far into the game. The farthest I ever got was getting the Charge Beam at some point, I think, but I never made it to Flaahgra, so I never actually fought Ridley, nor did I have any context for why he was important (it wouldn't be until 2014 or 2015 when I'd finally go back and complete Prime 1). And even if I had played the NES game or Super Metroid back then, I'd be even more lost and confused than I was with Prime.

Still, I was enamored with series, and I got Prime 2 the following year (I even had a cool Prime 2 t-shirt I got from Nintendo Power that has sadly been lost). I also got the guide book, so I did make it much farther into the game (though I never finished it until years later). That was when I was introduced to Dark Samus, and something about her just captured my imagination. I really liked the character, and though I didn't make it to the second boss fight, the initial introduction and the first boss fight were enough to leave an impact. For a period of time, in my early days on the internet, "Dark Samus" was my username in many places, and I was very familiar with this old picture. I pre-ordered Prime 3 and actually played it through to completion, seeing the end of Dark Samus, and had her firmly cemented as one of my favorite video game characters, even if I didn't understand why.

So of course I really wanted Dark Samus for Brawl, but then that didn't happen. By the time Smash 4 was announced, I knew it was a bit of a lost cause since it was 6-7 years after Prime 3, so I didn't hold my breath. By then, I'd become more familiar with the Metroid franchise, and I knew and liked Ridley, and knowing that he was the more popular and likely character, I hoped for him, so we could at least get a real second Metroid rep. I'd be satisfied with that. But then Sakurai made it clear he didn't want to do it, but Dark Samus was an assist trophy, which I thought was really fun, along with the alt color for Samus that I used frequently. When the ballot opened, figuring we'd never get Ridley, I voted for Dark Samus saying "Hey, you already have the assist trophy, so it's evident that it could be a completely unique character."

Now, we got Ridley. And I'm super excited, just like everyone else, and he might be my new main when the game comes out. I'm satisfied with that.

But then I, like many others, see that the Dark Samus alt color for Samus is missing and replaced with something that has no basis in any Metroid game. And, like many others, I ask "Why'd they replace that with something totally random?" Then I go back to scour the footage for the Dark Samus assist trophy, and it's gone. And then I realize that they just formally introduced "Echo Fighters," and that Dark Samus could qualify for that more than 90% of the other characters that most people are bandying about.

I've been going nuts ever since.

Though I'm well aware that, despite the evidence, expecting Dark Samus after we just got Ridley is more than a little absurd. So I'm ready to be disappointed, but that's fine, because at least I can say I have Ridley. With Smash 4, I had no one. I thought a lot of the new inclusions were cool, but they just weren't for me (except for Mega Man, who's like my fourth main behind R.O.B., Dedede, and Samus). I was mostly concerned that R.O.B. would get cut, so my main hope for that game was that a new character from the previous game would simply return. Not really something that gets you very excited for a new game.

But we got Ridley, we won that battle, so I won't be any less enthusiastic if Dark Samus is in. But if she's in, then I'll lose my mind.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's an interesting aspect of Dark Samus's character that isn't fully explored, but would be a great avenue to move her in if she ever returned: compassion for Metroids. With Phazon gone, most likely so would be Dark Samus's drive to corrupt and conquer, leaving her only vague memories of her former life and a kinship with Metroids, and ends up a neutral defender from those who'd seek to capture/kill/exploit them, neatly keeping her out of sight of Samus's main conflicts until the eventual Fusion sequel that most likely features rogue Chozo with the knowledge of how to breed more Metroids into existence.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Samus is the blog post of the day

Hint perhaps?

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

Samus is the blog post of the day

Hint perhaps?

It’s probably just to celebrate the series’ 32nd birthday.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Congrats guys! Dark Samus is a confirmed Echo Fighter!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

WE WON!!!

 

[ChronoBound]

Someone edit this gif to have Ridley's head over Goku and Dark Samus's head over Vegeta.

Metroid is finally complete. Dark Samus could very well be the luckiest character ever added to Smash Bros. I will try to write up on this. I was not expecting her to be confirmed so soon.

 

[GoodGrief741]

WE DID IT!

 

[IsmaR]

Everyone won, as far as I'm convinced.

 

[Nietona]

I thought Samus, ZSS and Ridley was perfect representation, but I'm beyond happy with Dark Samus. I just finished replaying the Prime Trilogy, too! Today is an amazing day.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

It looks like we won ya'll, time to CELEBRATE!

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Amazing, she might just be an echo, but they really nailed her animations. Metroid's representation is perfect now, really can't ask for anything more, even Kraid is back!

 

[Malkior7]

I still can't believe Dark Samus got in! Yeah baby!

 

[Billybae10K]

Just want to offer my congrats to everyone who wanted Dark Samus!