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Here you all are talking about the sexual harassment when NOBODY has mentioned that he tried to kill off PM intentionally, or how Nintendo has a part in the removal of PM as revealed in the conversation with Chibo.
Sexual allegations are serious, but let's not forget the fact he attempted to destroy a part of the Smash community by shunning out a game (despite its subjective standing). That's all I'm gonna say.
I never said that was the right thing to do. Being rejected from the community is an appropriate punishment. Death does not fit the crime, so wishing it upon him is 100% wrong.
Mistakes? Some people don't even think about others. For example Jodi Arias who tried to stall the trial and waste millions of dollars coming up with bull**** excuses just to try and avoid the death penalty and had been involved with attempted manipulation of jury vote doesn't get the death penalty because of one juror. She tried to come up with ridiculous stuff to blame that she was forced to and ruined the legacy of a dead innocent person. Now she won't get the death penalty because some juror was violating the law in the trial. O.J. Simpson killed two people clearly and obviously, but used the 5th amendment to prevent being convicted and got away with it. Alex Strife clearly embarrassed people, hasn't apologized, and is now trying to stay prevalent within his banished career and with all the hate he clearly isn't worth coming back. It is clear that he does not care for others and only for himself as evidenced by "Financial Activites". Greedy, brainwashed fiends of the world care not for others, but themselves and are a pest to society. These people are better off dead because they really haven't contributed in any meaningful way and have done more harm than good. He's left more people susceptible to bullying and threats than he has to himself with his actions.
And Bush caused a war that killed millions and had no sympathy, no sorries, no anything; most hated president since Warren G. Harding. And his war is still affecting people's lives now that it left ISIS/ISIL to perfectly take opportunity to become prevalent because he left Abrams in the region with a poorly trained military instead of taking it back to the US all for his friends at the military-industrial complex with Haliburton. He doesn't care about others unless it helps his reputation.
First off, I'm kind of offended you think the US shouldn't have taken action after being deliberately attacked by a foreign group.
Yeah...that war that happened after a thousand people died on 9/11....yeah your being very naive if you think he was going to sit by and just say, forgive and let it go. No country would do that.
If anything right no it's the people leaving the area and not taking action which is the problem right now over there.
Forgetting this political point aside. The point is still while I am more willing to believe the victims on some claims here you still need validation on that front to stop people from being falsely accused of something they might not have done.
Do you think it's fair a girl calls out a guy for sexual harassment at a school, found out she was lying but the school threw him out anyways because they thought he was guilty despite the courts saying he didn't do it?
Fair for a teacher to be thrown out when a student makes a false claim he ***** her, yet lacked evidence but the school fires the teacher regardless?
What about people who did a wrong in the past but then were redeemed for it later when they learned from it later.
Listen, I get it and agree. He needs to stay away from APEX, at least until he either decides to shed light on this better or we get more confirmation on one side or another. But this kind of thinking is dangerous in many ways.
I never said that was the right thing to do. Being rejected from the community is an appropriate punishment. Death does not fit the crime, so wishing it upon him is 100% wrong.
Assuming the other issues are proven, then sure. I see chat logs and some reddit posts, but not really fully context or much to go off of outside of the axing PM and trans issues.
While I think Alex Strife is almost certainly guilty of most things he was accused of at this point, like being a trans issue blind idiot and just a jack-*** in general.
I think you're insane if you think we should actually throw "innocent until proven guilty" out the window just because it involves a girl in possible danger, especially in the face of the fairly recent chain of false **** accusations that blew up just because of that line of thinking and people immediately siding with the more emotional side instead thinking logically first.
Or NateWantsToFaslelyAccuseOf****Battle and MorganWant falsely accusing GCPM11 and PurpleRodri of **** just a week after that was proven false with their only piece of evidence being a screen shot of a text somebody sent to Morgan saying that GCP and Rodri said they wanted to bang her.
And really, please explain how female smashers are treated "extremely" differently in this community, both ways, and how your female friends feel legitimately threatened by one guy that isn't even involved in the community at the moment just he won't say anything.
And why do you think that being in gaming community makes girls get treated any differently than anywhere else?
(I'm not saying that there isn't a change in treatment based on gender anywhere, just what makes people think it's a gaming problem and not just an inherent internet anonymity problem.)
But going back to the start, I feel personally offended that just because there are possibly girls in danger that you want throw basic logic and a solid cornerstone of any fair, modern justice system out the window.
I never see people throw logic out the window like that for guys, so I can't help but get the impression that people only do stuff like that because have some idea that girls are too weak/naive/or just somehow more frail and less capable than guys, and thus need special protection.
And even if your friends or other female smashers you know are actually unable to defend themselves, there are better ways to help them besides removing all logic from your thought processes and acting only on emotion.
I meant in this scenario, but I failed to state that. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here. There are way too many people speaking up with chat logs connected to his skype or aim (which is connected to his facebook account) and his facebook account along with bad experiences regarding this guy for there to be any chance of this all being a facade. Regardless of the amount of people, the people that have spoken up (Kiwi, Chibo) are very trustworthy in our community and have no reason to lie about this, especially Kiwi who is making it her personal goal to make this community safe for female smashers.
If this was a scenario where one girl was like "This guy was harassing me" with no one else backing it up and no proof whatsoever, then yes that would be where someone would throw the "innocent until proven guilty" card. Any scenario like this or the other sexual assault issues that have been brought up regarding a few other smashers sexually harassing women in the community is well past "innocent until proven guilty".
I wouldn't want my sister, girlfriend, daughter, mother, female friend etc near anyone that has been accused of sexual harassing women by multiple people with chat log proof. I would feel that most female smashers both old and new would feel the exact same way as I do. It's simply not safe.
"One guy". Yeah, there is only one guy that sexually harasses men in this community. Keep on believing that, please... :v Regardless, it was highly unrealistic that Strife wasn't partially running this before this article came to light since his girlfriend is running it and there were still staff members standing by Alex's side during all of this. Saying that he isn't involved with the community is unrealistic.
Women are treated differently because there are men that either underrate their gameplay because they're females ("There is no way a female can be this good at this game") or overrate them ("For a female smasher you're really good") because they're females on top of things outside of this game. Women are simply not treated as equals in this gaming community and it's really ****ty. Almost no female wants to be well known as a "top female smasher". They want to be known as a great smasher regardless of gender/sex. I was referring to this gaming community specifically by the way, which is why I said "in a gaming community where females already..." instead of "in a gaming community, where females already..." I don't know anything about other gaming communities. Why would this be an internet anonymity problem during real life tournaments?
The Smash community isn't a justice system. We don't need to sit here and think about every scenario and have 100% scientific proof (DNA test, video with his face obviously showing, etc) that he did this to women. If he is refusing to say anything on this when there are multiple chat logs connected to his facebook account and aim account, and is still trying to do everything like he was before AKA ignoring the issue altogether, then why should we allow him to keep on running tournaments? It's not safe for him to be anywhere near our tournament scene since he's not showing any signs of improvement and because he's ignoring the issue altogether. That's simply a fact.
Women (or men) being "strong enough" to protect themselves from sexual assault is dumb. No one regardless of gender or sex can consistently protect themselves from something like sexual assault. Sexual assault just doesn't work like that. If people could protect themselves from sexual assault consistently, it would not be nearly as much as a problem as it actually is.
I know for a fact that in a gaming community like this one, women are more likely to be sexually assaulted than men. That's simply a reality, and I don't know about you, but I don't want any of my female friends to have to go through that. I couldn't care less if certain males or females such as yourself view it as an awful thing to do, but I'm going to speak against a confirmed sex offender from running a national tournament without fixing his attitude.
This is no longer an issue of "the assault victims don't want Strife removed from the community". I guarantee you that if Strife is going to "step down", still run the thing regardless, not make any comment on these issues, and still get support, then the women who were assaulted want this guy gone and apex boycotted. He is showing literally zero signs of improvement on top of ignoring the issue. That alone is enough to want to start boycotting for his ban in the community.
Last of all, I know that I can only say this for myself personally, but I would 100% feel the same way if this was a man or woman assaulting multiple men (or a mixture of men and women). Sexual assault is dangerous, mentally scarring, and can ruin someone's life regardless of their sex or gender. I'm sorry if you feel that others wouldn't petition for the same thing if this was men being assaulted instead of women, but I have faith in our community that they'd be intelligent enough to do the same thing for men.
tl;dr Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here because there are way too many chat logs connected to his personal facebook account on top of him ignoring the issue altogether (plus the people that came out with this are really trustworthy and are serious for making this community safe for everyone). No one is "strong enough" to "protect" themselves from sexual assault consistently. Sexual assault isn't female exclusive, but in this scenario it obviously is.
I don't know any of the people involved, nor have I been to an Apex tournament. I do know he consistently helped bring Japanese players to multiple smash tournaments with many successful events. It seems you're wanting him gone, because he is weird and awkward verbally?
And then that falls under proven guilty, I was not saying Strife isn't guilty, and if there's actual proof like in this case, how does that invalidate the need for "Innocent until proven guilty"?
And define "any scenario like this or other sexual assault issues", and what do you even consider sexual assault or harassing women? That's such a vague statement, and once again, if there's more proof than just some emotional testimonies like screenshots, how does that circumvent "innocent until proven guilty"?
That sentence, tell me, how do I interpret that sentence, how, do I, interpret that sentence? I honestly can't tell if you're tying to twist my words around on purpose or not.
And running what, Apex, where is his girlfriend and loyal staff now and what are they running now that Apex is over?
Women are treated differently because there are men that either underrate their gameplay because they're females ("There is no way a female can be this good at this game") or overrate them ("For a female smasher you're really good") because they're females on top of things outside of this game. Women are simply not treated as equals in this gaming community and it's really ****ty. Almost no female wants to be well known as a "top female smasher". They want to be known as a great smasher regardless of gender/sex. I was referring to this gaming community specifically by the way, which is why I said "in a gaming community where females already..." instead of "in a gaming community, where females already..." I don't know anything about other gaming communities. Why would this be an internet anonymity problem during real life tournaments?
And I thought you were talking about how the community is online, but holy crap, are you actually trying to say that the community is like that in person?
And really, so you'd much rather we just accidentally vilify everyone who gets accused of something by enough people, or don't care enough about our members to do a proper procedure to see if they're actually guilty?
And once again, I said Strife is almost certainly guilty unless he comes out with some very very good proof to the contrary soon.
And once again, that doe's not invalidate "Innocent Until -> PROVEN <- Guilty" with the proof so far being the screenshots and reliable testimonies.
And holy crap again, you said something I actually agree with, I hate the idea that some perpetuate that only girls can be ***** and that guys can't be.
However, once again, what do you mean by sexual assault? People use that and similar terms for all sorts of stuff, even just unwanted sexual compliments.
And AGAIN, what do you even consider a "confirmed sex offender"? What criteria do you even use? He hasn't even legally been convicted of anything yet, including sexual, He has invaded transwomen's privacy and spilled private details (which should probably be illegal but isn't). and whether or not his comments towards other woman alone by itself is a actual sex crime that would brand him a sex offender or even a legal crime at all is up to his local courts, not from persist opinions without consideration for legal definitions saying that he is.
Although for something illegal he can definitely be charged for is burning Brawl ISOs onto disks for game set ups, which is a copyright violation and is illegal in a different, unrelated to being a sex offender way.
And -again-, is your definition of "sexual assault", assault implying physical violence, just unwanted comments? If it is I would just like to tell you that you're severely undermining those who actually experienced physical violence.
Also you're deciding what they want for them, and even saying that they will boycott apex, based purely on the paranoia that strife will somehow run everything from the shadows, and even if he gets his loyal staff in somehow, what's he gonna do then through that staff?
And that's mostly accurate, I think this community would react more to a man being harassed than other communities, but still not as much as a woman getting harassed.
And once again, you're missing what I'm trying to get across by Proven, Guilty, this is pretty much following proper procedure, it's up to Strife to try and discredit all the proof now, which seems very unlikely to happen, and that this shouldn't and cannot be a example of when to ditch the rule when it's actually following it.
I know for a fact that in a gaming community like this one, women are more likely to be sexually assaulted than men. That's simply a reality, and I don't know about you, but I don't want any of my female friends to have to go through that. I couldn't care less if certain males or females such as yourself view it as an awful thing to do, but I'm going to speak against a confirmed sex offender from running a national tournament without fixing his attitude.
I don't know any of the people involved, nor have I been to an Apex tournament. I do know he consistently helped bring Japanese players to multiple smash tournaments with many successful events. It seems you're wanting him gone, because he is weird and awkward verbally?
Yeah, he helped them get to Apex, by making them ride in the back of a truck full of CRTs with their luggage, among other great methods of transporting international players that totally weren't a disgrace to Apex. [/sarcasm]
Am I the only one that doesn't mindlessly believe some random Tumblr feminist for saying that somebody is a sexist pedophile? Like is that old screenshot from an old-ass chat room that I could make in MS paint enough to ruin somebody's hard work? I don't know if he actually did the things that these people are saying he did, but why do people just believe them with no proof? You know that people can tell lies, right?
Am I the only one that doesn't mindlessly believe some random Tumblr feminist for saying that somebody is a sexist pedophile? Like is that old screenshot from an old-*** chat room that I could make in MS paint enough to ruin somebody's hard work? I don't know if he actually did the things that these people are saying he did, but why do people just believe them with no proof? You know that people can tell lies, right?
I was pretty much the same way when a lotta women came forward with allegations that Bill Cosby sexually harassed them during the early years of his career. I mean if he did something they say he did, then where's the proof? All of them the same story but no proof. I find it hard to believe everything they say is true unless there at least have some proof. I'm not sure how I feel about this whole Alex Strife bull**** though.
And then that falls under proven guilty, I was not saying Strife isn't guilty, and if there's actual proof like in this case, how does that invalidate the need for "Innocent until proven guilty"?
And define "any scenario like this or other sexual assault issues", and what do you even consider sexual assault or harassing women? That's such a vague statement, and once again, if there's more proof than just some emotional testimonies like screenshots, how does that circumvent "innocent until proven guilty"?
Please tell me.
That sentence, tell me, how do I interpret that sentence, how, do I, interpret that sentence? I honestly can't tell if you're tying to twist my words around on purpose or not.
And running what, Apex, where is his girlfriend and loyal staff now and what are they running now that Apex is over?
And I thought you were talking about how the community is online, but holy crap, are you actually trying to say that the community is like that in person?
And really, so you'd much rather we just accidentally vilify everyone who gets accused of something by enough people, or don't care enough about our members to do a proper procedure to see if they're actually guilty?
And once again, I said Strife is almost certainly guilty unless he comes out with some very very good proof to the contrary soon.
And once again, that doe's not invalidate "Innocent Until -> PROVEN <- Guilty" with the proof so far being the screenshots and reliable testimonies.
And holy crap again, you said something I actually agree with, I hate the idea that some perpetuate that only girls can be ***** and that guys can't be.
However, once again, what do you mean by sexual assault? People use that and similar terms for all sorts of stuff, even just unwanted sexual compliments.
And AGAIN, what do you even consider a "confirmed sex offender"? What criteria do you even use? He hasn't even legally been convicted of anything yet, including sexual, He has invaded transwomen's privacy and spilled private details (which should probably be illegal but isn't). and whether or not his comments towards other woman alone by itself is a actual sex crime that would brand him a sex offender or even a legal crime at all is up to his local courts, not from persist opinions without consideration for legal definitions saying that he is.
Although for something illegal he can definitely be charged for is burning Brawl ISOs onto disks for game set ups, which is a copyright violation and is illegal in a different, unrelated to being a sex offender way.
And -again-, is your definition of "sexual assault", assault implying physical violence, just unwanted comments? If it is I would just like to tell you that you're severely undermining those who actually experienced physical violence.
Also you're deciding what they want for them, and even saying that they will boycott apex, based purely on the paranoia that strife will somehow run everything from the shadows, and even if he gets his loyal staff in somehow, what's he gonna do then through that staff?
And that's mostly accurate, I think this community would react more to a man being harassed than other communities, but still not as much as a woman getting harassed.
And once again, you're missing what I'm trying to get across by Proven, Guilty, this is pretty much following proper procedure, it's up to Strife to try and discredit all the proof now, which seems very unlikely to happen, and that this shouldn't and cannot be a example of when to ditch the rule when it's actually following it.
You should tell people that this doesn't fall under "innocent until proven guilty", then, because that is what I was referring to. If something like this falls under the innocent part of "innocent until proven guilty", then I have no desire to follow such a concept. Like, sorry. No can do.
If multiple people have proof such as the proof that is against strife that some guy has sexually harassed or assaulted them, then yes, I will sign a petition to have them removed from our community. Not sure why this is difficult to understand or why you're trying to make me sound dumb as **** for thinking this. Like, what type of "proper procedure" should I be doing here, or anyone in this community for that matter? I'm not quite sure what you're expecting from a gaming community. Literally all we can do is exile him from the community and hope that he seeks help, because some of this stuff happened way too long ago to get actual legal actions taken against him.
A majority of my female friends that are in the smash community have had to deal with being treated differently offline because of some stupid men. I mean, it could only happen to my female friends of course, but for some reason I doubt that. It's worse online for sure, but saying it doesn't exist offline is simply incorrect.
While my "one person?" comment was unneeded, I don't understand what you're trying to get at with the "Where is his girlfriend and staff at now?" comment. Like, there is going to be another apex, and this is all going to come back up again the second that apex registration comes back up.
I consider stuff like this a little more than unwanted comments, but to each their own.
Sexual assault (or abuse) is when one person forces another person into any sexual act via ****, groping, etc or does ANYTHING sexual towards any minor. This involves things that would be categorized as sexual harassment towards people above the age of consent.
What he has done to Kiwi specifically (and maybe others. I don't remember the age of others) is sexual assault. Just because it isn't as severe as getting beaten, tortured, or ***** doesn't mean that it isn't sexual assault. Sexual harassment, while it isn't as severe, is still a huge problem that needs to be stopped regardless. If Kiwi was not a minor at the time when Strife tried these sexual advances, then yes, it would just be sexual harassment. That, however, is not the case.
While I understand that I shouldn't use assault/harassment interchangeably, Strife is guilty of both.
Sex offender is a little too far potentially, but that's what he might as well be with his comments towards 14 year old girls and what he did to Tiger. Of course I don't mean a confirmed sex offender in courts. It's not like he's going to get legally prosecuted for any of this, especially since Kiwi is no longer a minor. It's unrealistic to expect that without actual physical proof, and he hasn't actually ***** any women yet (from what we know) regardless of the **** he's done. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything about it, and that doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat him like a sex offender in our community if he's ignoring the issue altogether, as it still leaves the possibility of him doing this again.
Why are you acting like none of the victims have stated that they want to boycott Apex 2016? I can quote at least 2 (probably more if I actually looked) off of the top of my head of them saying anything similar to "I want everyone to have fun at Apex 2015, but after this is over, we need to stand together and boycott Apex 2016".
If you want to continue this discussion in PM, feel free. I feel that we are cluttering the threat at this point, though.
I meant in this scenario, but I failed to state that. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here. There are way too many people speaking up with chat logs connected to his skype or aim (which is connected to his facebook account) and his facebook account along with bad experiences regarding this guy for there to be any chance of this all being a facade. Regardless of the amount of people, the people that have spoken up (Kiwi, Chibo) are very trustworthy in our community and have no reason to lie about this, especially Kiwi who is making it her personal goal to make this community safe for female smashers.
If this was a scenario where one girl was like "This guy was harassing me" with no one else backing it up and no proof whatsoever, then yes that would be where someone would throw the "innocent until proven guilty" card. Any scenario like this or the other sexual assault issues that have been brought up regarding a few other smashers sexually harassing women in the community is well past "innocent until proven guilty".
I wouldn't want my sister, girlfriend, daughter, mother, female friend etc near anyone that has been accused of sexual harassing women by multiple people with chat log proof. I would feel that most female smashers both old and new would feel the exact same way as I do. It's simply not safe.
"One guy". Yeah, there is only one guy that sexually harasses men in this community. Keep on believing that, please... :v Regardless, it was highly unrealistic that Strife wasn't partially running this before this article came to light since his girlfriend is running it and there were still staff members standing by Alex's side during all of this. Saying that he isn't involved with the community is unrealistic.
Women are treated differently because there are men that either underrate their gameplay because they're females ("There is no way a female can be this good at this game") or overrate them ("For a female smasher you're really good") because they're females on top of things outside of this game. Women are simply not treated as equals in this gaming community and it's really ****ty. Almost no female wants to be well known as a "top female smasher". They want to be known as a great smasher regardless of gender/sex. I was referring to this gaming community specifically by the way, which is why I said "in a gaming community where females already..." instead of "in a gaming community, where females already..." I don't know anything about other gaming communities. Why would this be an internet anonymity problem during real life tournaments?
The Smash community isn't a justice system. We don't need to sit here and think about every scenario and have 100% scientific proof (DNA test, video with his face obviously showing, etc) that he did this to women. If he is refusing to say anything on this when there are multiple chat logs connected to his facebook account and aim account, and is still trying to do everything like he was before AKA ignoring the issue altogether, then why should we allow him to keep on running tournaments? It's not safe for him to be anywhere near our tournament scene since he's not showing any signs of improvement and because he's ignoring the issue altogether. That's simply a fact.
Women (or men) being "strong enough" to protect themselves from sexual assault is dumb. No one regardless of gender or sex can consistently protect themselves from something like sexual assault. Sexual assault just doesn't work like that. If people could protect themselves from sexual assault consistently, it would not be nearly as much as a problem as it actually is.
I know for a fact that in a gaming community like this one, women are more likely to be sexually assaulted than men. That's simply a reality, and I don't know about you, but I don't want any of my female friends to have to go through that. I couldn't care less if certain males or females such as yourself view it as an awful thing to do, but I'm going to speak against a confirmed sex offender from running a national tournament without fixing his attitude.
This is no longer an issue of "the assault victims don't want Strife removed from the community". I guarantee you that if Strife is going to "step down", still run the thing regardless, not make any comment on these issues, and still get support, then the women who were assaulted want this guy gone and apex boycotted. He is showing literally zero signs of improvement on top of ignoring the issue. That alone is enough to want to start boycotting for his ban in the community.
Last of all, I know that I can only say this for myself personally, but I would 100% feel the same way if this was a man or woman assaulting multiple men (or a mixture of men and women). Sexual assault is dangerous, mentally scarring, and can ruin someone's life regardless of their sex or gender. I'm sorry if you feel that others wouldn't petition for the same thing if this was men being assaulted instead of women, but I have faith in our community that they'd be intelligent enough to do the same thing for men.
tl;dr Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here because there are way too many chat logs connected to his personal facebook account on top of him ignoring the issue altogether (plus the people that came out with this are really trustworthy and are serious for making this community safe for everyone). No one is "strong enough" to "protect" themselves from sexual assault consistently. Sexual assault isn't female exclusive, but in this scenario it obviously is.
Joey, I agree there is evidence for him doing some of this stuff, but unless we know full context we really don't know what exactly was going on outside of the anti-PM and Transgender stuff.
The sexual harassment...I see reason to think he might have done that, but this isn't conclusive entirely. I do not think it is easy to prove per say, but it stil stands that we should be able to listen to both sides at the very least.
But Alex is being silent on this and the only other evidence is a few chat logs, still not enough for me to see this if I am not sure what exactly is the full story of what went down.
This is why I can't support any sort of witch hunt on Alex, though I think for APEX's sake he needs to not be involved in it since the community backlash will be huge if he is there.
Am I the only one that doesn't mindlessly believe some random Tumblr feminist for saying that somebody is a sexist pedophile? Like is that old screenshot from an old-*** chat room that I could make in MS paint enough to ruin somebody's hard work? I don't know if he actually did the things that these people are saying he did, but why do people just believe them with no proof? You know that people can tell lies, right?
Why is it that anyone who points out issues affecting females and/or transgender people in the gaming community ends up getting called a Tumblr feminist? Also, that would be quite the conspiracy for all these people to have made the entire thing up, and to have gone along with it for five years.
And I thought you were talking about how the community is online, but holy crap, are you actually trying to say that the community is like that in person?
12 out of the 53 women have reported to me that they have been sexually assaulted (23%, almost ¼). 8 of the 12 reported that their assailants were members of the community. The actual numbers for these may very well be higher. I did not remotely ask any women interviewed to divulge this information, they all included it in their responses to the interview questions. I have ONLY counted the women who absolutely clearly expressed to me that they have been sexually assaulted. The information was freely given to me with the knowledge that I would publish the numbers and/or names reported. Sexual assault is not a trivial matter that encompasses all negative sexual experiences, and I only counted women whose experiences lined up with the U.S Department of Justice’s definition of sexual assault, which is:
“Any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted ****.”
So, 12 victims of sexual assault. Of these, 11 have been full on ***** (7 by another smasher). 3 have been groped and *****, 1 has been groped only (by another smasher), Many of the women have tried to report the assault to the police. None of them were successful. They were belittled by the police and were unable to handle the stress of a full criminal trial. The women who have divulged this experience have been incredibly brave to do so.
First off, I'm kind of offended you think the US shouldn't have taken action after being deliberately attacked by a foreign group.
Yeah...that war that happened after a thousand people died on 9/11....yeah your being very naive if you think he was going to sit by and just say, forgive and let it go. No country would do that.
If anything right no it's the people leaving the area and not taking action which is the problem right now over there.
Forgetting this political point aside. The point is still while I am more willing to believe the victims on some claims here you still need validation on that front to stop people from being falsely accused of something they might not have done.
Do you think it's fair a girl calls out a guy for sexual harassment at a school, found out she was lying but the school threw him out anyways because they thought he was guilty despite the courts saying he didn't do it?
Fair for a teacher to be thrown out when a student makes a false claim he ***** her, yet lacked evidence but the school fires the teacher regardless?
What about people who did a wrong in the past but then were redeemed for it later when they learned from it later.
Listen, I get it and agree. He needs to stay away from APEX, at least until he either decides to shed light on this better or we get more confirmation on one side or another. But this kind of thinking is dangerous in many ways.
Assuming the other issues are proven, then sure. I see chat logs and some reddit posts, but not really fully context or much to go off of outside of the axing PM and trans issues.
You do realize Iraq had nothing to do with plotting the attacks. Afghanistan did have a heavy part, but Iraq wasn't sheltering Al Qaeda or anything. Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction. We were already at war with Afghanistan, but a pointless war just enveloped leaving the region in disaster. The war was completely unnecessary and pissed off the entire world. The world hates the US because they invaded Iraq.
And as for this issue there was clearly a lot of logs and honesty involved. Not everyone can have access to the truth or know the full story and yet these people within the community are trusted extensively. There would no need for lie detectors or any of that if there is honest people. Schools have the right to take action and they don't keep cameras in classrooms. If a **** happened and they can't prove it just letting the student there ***** and humiliated have no one to protect her? That's really destroying someone's life and letting criminals getting away with mischievous acts. Barely anyone can learn from their past because people barely change and go back to doing the same thing. I don't know if this is new to you, but prisons don't really offer any mental help. They make the issue worse, but it's the only place they have left to go. This is the issue of the government.
Is there evidence that would hold up in court that Alex Strife molested/harassed various women and transgendered individuals? No.
Does that mean there's no evidence? No.
There's pretty strong evidence that Strife did some pretty nasty ****. At the very least, this should be enough for anyone in the community to point to and say, "I don't want to associate with this person". Certainly for any given female or transgendered smasher. I won't hold it against you if you disagree, but if Alex rejoins the team, I will recommend that everyone not go to APEX. We've got a better international for Melee and Sm4sh anyways.
And define "any scenario like this or other sexual assault issues", and what do you even consider sexual assault or harassing women? That's such a vague statement, and once again, if there's more proof than just some emotional testimonies like screenshots, how does that circumvent "innocent until proven guilty"?
Holy crap, that quote mining, you are literally both interpreting my words out of context and twisting it mean what you want to hear.
Clearly I need to use more commas, not that it'd stop you from finding something to quote mine anyway.
I am saying that, for example, the UVA **** claim's only evidence on the "victims" side was her emotional testimony, versus the piles of evidence that surfaced against her. http://wapo.st/1vnF3ed
Which is, proof for "Innocent until proven guilty", looking into facts instead of siding with the more emotional side right away.
12 out of the 53 women have reported to me that they have been sexually assaulted (23%, almost ¼). 8 of the 12 reported that their assailants were members of the community. The actual numbers for these may very well be higher. I did not remotely ask any women interviewed to divulge this information, they all included it in their responses to the interview questions. I have ONLY counted the women who absolutely clearly expressed to me that they have been sexually assaulted. The information was freely given to me with the knowledge that I would publish the numbers and/or names reported. Sexual assault is not a trivial matter that encompasses all negative sexual experiences, and I only counted women whose experiences lined up with the U.S Department of Justice’s definition of sexual assault, which is:
“Any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted ****.”
So, 12 victims of sexual assault. Of these, 11 have been full on ***** (7 by another smasher). 3 have been groped and *****, 1 has been groped only (by another smasher), Many of the women have tried to report the assault to the police. None of them were successful. They were belittled by the police and were unable to handle the stress of a full criminal trial. The women who have divulged this experience have been incredibly brave to do so.
Besides the small sample size and the fact that it was done through sites like facebook, I find such insane claims like almost 1 in 4 woman in have been sexually assaulted especially combined with the typical claim that:
The few who tried to report their assailants to the community, or just try to talk about their **** in general, were often met with vicious backlash.
You should tell people that this doesn't fall under "innocent until proven guilty", then, because that is what I was referring to. If something like this falls under the innocent part of "innocent until proven guilty", then I have no desire to follow such a concept. Like, sorry. No can do.
If multiple people have proof such as the proof that is against strife that some guy has sexually harassed or assaulted them, then yes, I will sign a petition to have them removed from our community. Not sure why this is difficult to understand or why you're trying to make me sound dumb as **** for thinking this. Like, what type of "proper procedure" should I be doing here, or anyone in this community for that matter? I'm not quite sure what you're expecting from a gaming community. Literally all we can do is exile him from the community and hope that he seeks help, because some of this stuff happened way too long ago to get actual legal actions taken against him.
A majority of my female friends that are in the smash community have had to deal with being treated differently offline because of some stupid men. I mean, it could only happen to my female friends of course, but for some reason I doubt that. It's worse online for sure, but saying it doesn't exist offline is simply incorrect.
While my "one person?" comment was unneeded, I don't understand what you're trying to get at with the "Where is his girlfriend and staff at now?" comment. Like, there is going to be another apex, and this is all going to come back up again the second that apex registration comes back up.
I consider stuff like this a little more than unwanted comments, but to each their own.
Sexual assault (or abuse) is when one person forces another person into any sexual act via ****, groping, etc or does ANYTHING sexual towards any minor. This involves things that would be categorized as sexual harassment towards people above the age of consent.
What he has done to Kiwi specifically (and maybe others. I don't remember the age of others) is sexual assault. Just because it isn't as severe as getting beaten, tortured, or ***** doesn't mean that it isn't sexual assault. Sexual harassment, while it isn't as severe, is still a huge problem that needs to be stopped regardless. If Kiwi was not a minor at the time when Strife tried these sexual advances, then yes, it would just be sexual harassment. That, however, is not the case.
While I understand that I shouldn't use assault/harassment interchangeably, Strife is guilty of both.
Sex offender is a little too far potentially, but that's what he might as well be with his comments towards 14 year old girls and what he did to Tiger. Of course I don't mean a confirmed sex offender in courts. It's not like he's going to get legally prosecuted for any of this, especially since Kiwi is no longer a minor. It's unrealistic to expect that without actual physical proof, and he hasn't actually ***** any women yet (from what we know) regardless of the **** he's done. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything about it, and that doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat him like a sex offender in our community if he's ignoring the issue altogether, as it still leaves the possibility of him doing this again.
Why are you acting like none of the victims have stated that they want to boycott Apex 2016? I can quote at least 2 (probably more if I actually looked) off of the top of my head of them saying anything similar to "I want everyone to have fun at Apex 2015, but after this is over, we need to stand together and boycott Apex 2016".
If you want to continue this discussion in PM, feel free. I feel that we are cluttering the threat at this point, though.
I seriously don't even understand what you're trying to say, I can't even care to try and figure out what your problem with "Innocent until proven guilty" in this situation is.
And once again, I he fee probably is guilty at this point, but once again- actually just reply to @#HBC | Red Ryu
, I don't care to go on about this personally, besides asking where the hell did this about a petition come from, and are you sure you're not the one having trouble understanding what others are tying to say?
And are you also saying that just because we're gamers that we can have lower standards than any other groups that meet in person, or that because we're gamers we're inherently more vile than any other group (regular or "nerd") and thus need lower standards because higher ones would be impossible?
And please, describe actual events they had to deal with in person.
And my question is if Apex or Apex under a different name but with the same staff happens, what the hell is Strife gonna have to do with it if he's already exiled and not gonna be directly a part of the staff at apex, or even have no involvement at all if his loyal staff doesn't make it in? Please, explain how he will be involved with Apex 2016.
And I still find that comment extremely undermining to those who were actually physically assaulted and abused, and I seriously don't think he's guilty of assault if he's never touched anybody, or even abuse unless you want to argue that it's verbal abuse.
And I don't even wanna reply to that "strife should be treated as a sex offender" thing either right now, you should also just talk with Red Ryu about that, although I'll just say as a last note is that victims are helped more by facts and logical thinking than acting of off hysteria like the possibility that Strife might have something to do with Apex 2016, since once again, I feel he pretty much is removed from the community at this point.
And sure, go ahead and find those quotes, but please link the full context as well, and also see if they'll still feel the same way if Strife has nothing to do with Apex 2016.
And what's there to even clutter at this point, the whole thread is just consumed by this discussion, may as well just leave it public, and actually, I want this to be fully in view of the moderators and anybody else who cares, so I'd refuse to make this private unless a moderator asked us to, in which case I'd just stop this discussion.
I seriously don't even understand what you're trying to say, I can't even care to try and figure out what your problem with "Innocent until proven guilty" in this situation is.
Because this isn't a scenario where Strife is innocent, but people are trying to say that he's innocent until proven guilty. This is a scenario where he is not innocent until proven guilty
And once again, I he fee probably is guilty at this point, but once again- actually just reply to @#HBC | Red Ryu
, I don't care to go on about this personally, besides asking where the hell did this about a petition come from, and are you sure you're not the one having trouble understanding what others are tying to say?
Getting people together and sending a petition of sorts or a letter from a lot of us smashers to a TO is the easiest way to show that a majority of us are against someone. Not that hard to understand.
And are you also saying that just because we're gamers that we can have lower standards than any other groups that meet in person, or that because we're gamers we're inherently more vile than any other group (regular or "nerd") and thus need lower standards because higher ones would be impossible?
And my question is if Apex or Apex under a different name but with the same staff happens, what the hell is Strife gonna have to do with it if he's already exiled and not gonna be directly a part of the staff at apex, or even have no involvement at all if his loyal staff doesn't make it in? Please, explain how he will be involved with Apex 2016.
This is implying that Strife is still directly involved, just not where he's visibly a part of the staff. Why are you assuming that he won't have anything to do with it if we don't actually boycott the event?
And I still find that comment extremely undermining to those who were actually physically assaulted and abused, and I seriously don't think he's guilty of assault if he's never touched anybody, or even abuse unless you want to argue that it's verbal abuse.
He is guilty of assault. The definition of sexual assault involves anything sexual regarding a minor. Sorry if this is difficult for you to understand, but that's the term it fits under, and just because physical assault victims may feel that is undermining them doesn't mean it should be under a different term altogether.
And I don't even wanna reply to that "strife should be treated as a sex offender" thing either right now, you should also just talk with Red Ryu about that, although I'll just say as a last note is that victims are helped more by facts and logical thinking than acting of off hysteria like the possibility that Strife might have something to do with Apex 2016, since once again, I feel he pretty much is removed from the community at this point.
Labeling this as "Innocent" due to "Innocent until proven guilty" is not logical thinking in this scenario. I know you weren't, I never said you were, but that is what I was arguing against.
And sure, go ahead and find those quotes, but please link the full context as well, and also see if they'll still feel the same way if Strife has nothing to do with Apex 2016.
They want Strife to have nothing to do with Apex 2016, but they feel (and this article also semi-proves) that he will have something to do with Apex 2016. Not sure why you're acting like he's completely gone when that is the point of this article we're posting under.
And what's there to even clutter at this point, the whole thread is just consumed by this discussion, may as well just leave it public, and actually, I want this to be fully in view of the moderators and anybody else who cares, so I'd refuse to make this private unless a moderator asked us to, in which case I'd just stop this discussion.
Getting people together and sending a petition of sorts or a letter from a lot of us smashers to a TO is the easiest way to show that a majority of us are against someone. Not that hard to understand.
I was talking about what petition would there be to sign, who would/did start it, why it's being brought up now, what exactly it would want strife to be removed from specifically, and which TO's would it be send to.
Like, what type of "proper procedure" should I be doing here, or anyone in this community for that matter? I'm not quite sure what you're expecting from a gaming community. Literally all we can do is exile him from the community and hope that he seeks help, because some of this stuff happened way too long ago to get actual legal actions taken against him.
That's just how I interpreted that paragraph.
And by proper procedure I just mean basic, l logical deduction before making brash decisions.
Also not saying exiling him isn't a valid option for this case, or that it might possibly be the only option.
I read it and it's amazing quote's like this girl who mains but doesn't main peach because she a girl character, because, ellipses, she hate that.
“I dated a guy who was in the scene up in AK and so I just kind of got into it with him. Part of it was just trying to do something with him, and part of it was just the fact that I enjoyed the game and the competitive scene.I main Peach, but dabble in Puff and Sheik. I don’t main Peach because that’s a “girl” character…I hate that!” —Anonymous, AK/WA
Otherwise I don't see how proof that there there's typical internet anonymity like the articles proof showed, and was partially even about, like this quote from Ms. "Smash 4 is Hopeless"
“Stop saying indecent things about the girls who are on stream! Honestly, I get that you’re safe behind a computer screen but have some respect. Jeeze!” —Peachyhime, NY
I don't really feel that a sample size of 53 really proves that it's a common issue girls face in real life meet ups, and most of what those in that survey had to deal with were demeaning comments and jokes, which guys get as well (look at comments about M2K and his Aspergers, claims that he was faking being sick at Apex 2015, ect, or ZeRo about his weight, for example), and assumptions from others of having low skill, which also doesn't seem like a female specific issue and shouldn't be hard to quickly dispel in a match anyway.
And depending on how those 53 were found it might inherently be biased towards those who had bad experiences already instead of getting a proper sample, which can't really happen with such a small sample anyway.
Although I'll admit one thing I actually did like was this quote from Vixen:
“My final issue is less about sexism, and more about the (mis)treatment of transgendered individuals within the community […] Comments ranging from “Oh, you’re not a REAL girl.” to being outright called a ******, or purposefully being called male as an antagonizer […] The implication that a transgender is any less the gender they identify as is sickening and does nothing to help move forward as a community, and as a society.” —Vixen, AZ
I was feeling like typing everything I did so far was a waste of time since I feel like we aren't getting anything across to eachother, but finding another great person to follow maked it worth while.
I'm very glad to see that this survey treats Trans Woman as real woman instead of rejecting or demeaning them.
I was also about to say how the stats of how "Almost 1 in 4 of female smashers interviewed were ****d." sounds like rigged BS like all the other bogus stats I hear like "1 in 5 Collage Woman were or will be ****d."
But if this includes a large amount of trans woman, it might actually not be that inaccurate, but then in that case it'd also be more of a trans prejudice and hatred issue (which is very common, even among homosexuals) and not more broadly an issue of sexism against woman, which would need a call to give more respect to transexxuals specifically.
This is implying that Strife is still directly involved, just not where he's visibly a part of the staff. Why are you assuming that he won't have anything to do with it if we don't actually boycott the event?
Because while he's eyeing it and claiming to still be control, I seriously doubt that he'll still be in control by the time Apex 2016 rolls around with so much of the community against him.
He is guilty of assault. The definition of sexual assault involves anything sexual regarding a minor. Sorry if this is difficult for you to understand, but that's the term it fits under, and just because physical assault victims may feel that is undermining them doesn't mean it should be under a different term altogether.
