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Data The Complete Samus Combo and String List

DungeonMaster

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A really good guide about combos was posted a few days ago in the Competitive Discussion boards, may be good to add it to the list of helpful links.
And, Dash Attack > U-air > Sour B-air > Screw Attack is a string I've been pulling off a bit recently at really low %s.
Definitely, I saw the post the other day as well and I'll definitely link it. Incidentally beyond the theory, which is spot on excellent, some of that stuff he's doing with the sourspot reverse perfect pivot on the fox f-tilt is insane.
The Dash Attack -> u-air-> sour b-air -> up-B is also confirmed a tight 0% string on floaty characters, I could land it on Samus and peach but not ROB. At these low %s, even well into the 40s for heavy characters DI is negligible in this game, you really can't adjust very much at all. Haven't tested grab yet @ Scream Scream . And yes, aerial sourspot B-air never combos into another aerial, up-B would be natural best fit but I can't get it to register in any circumstance. The knockback and end-lag are selected specifically to disallow it, as soon as they get enough hitstun they're too far away.

@ GdspdUblkprzdnt GdspdUblkprzdnt thanks, are you interested in making a list for customs? I've had several bites but no takers since it's quite a lot of work. :p
 
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Afro Smash

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Ok so done testing and these are the results (Note I only went in increments of 5, not exact percentage)

D-Throw > Bair on ROB works from 0%-110%

Late Dash Attack > Charge Shot works on ROB from 35%-105%

And note for the LDA > CS combo you need to Jump forwards to true combo it, not just jump straight up, so input a dash before you jump!
 
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DungeonMaster

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Confirmed @ Afro Smash Afro Smash on the sourspot dash starter. Also extends the range of follow ups. At 35-45% you can get dash (sour) -> up-air -> CS 42% damage. The low end is tight on simple CS. Nice!
Surprised B-air out of d-throw has that big a range - that means there are more than 9 frames in that total combo window. Need to practice my RAR... in fact I've been motivated to do exactly that.
 

DungeonMaster

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The simple explanation of how to do these is that you don't need to be that amazing or do a whole pile of killer math. You definitely need to practice a whole pile in training mode to get the aerial CS timing down, which can be easy (up-tilt starter) or very hard (dash starter). The VAST bulk of the cast sits in and around a magic number of 30. If you simply learn how to combo one character, say fox who sits precisely at 30, then you can intuitively adjust a bit to know how to combo all the others.
Subtracting, particularly in the middle of a fight, does not work for me. I am not some sort of savant. I keep a few numbers in my head and the only calculation I do is add 1/10th of Samus' damage to the opponents.
I'm typically always watching for 15, 20 and 30. 15 is the dash -> up-air -> CS, 20 is the grab->up-air->CS and 30 is magic where tons of good stuff can happen out of an up-tilt.

The next and most important thing I recently discovered is about up-tilt. In the video you see tons of people getting up-tilted, are they all "bad" players who can't tech? The answer is no. The key is up-air. If you notice I will FF up-air->up-tilt and it miraculously seems to land.
This comes back to Roach Cake's insistence that I add in this thread the soft-hits of u-air to d-tilt combo. He insisted on it, and despite all my testing in training mode I couldn't get it to true combo, the hitstun is not enough from the small hits.
If you play enough you realize this just "works". The up-B variant as well. It just does. Why? Game says it's not a true combo. This puzzled me for a while. From frame data it makes no sense. It's 11 frames landing lag for up-air and 6 frames to get out d-tilt. That's 17 frames. Anyone with a quick jab, or even just a grab should smack us around. But no, never happens. WHY?
The first part is frame cancelling. Up-air frame cancels something like 99% of the time. It's amazing. This means you go from 11 frames to 4.
The next part is that the opponent is popped up by the soft hits and must land. In smash 4, even if you do absolutely nothing, you incur 4 frames of landing lag. So relative to the opponent because of frame cancelling, you are at zero frame advantage.
But it's better than that. If it was just zero frame advantage little mac could jab you with his frame 1 jab vs. your frame 6 d-tilt. But with enough damage, he can't, at all (my testing, someone else could confirm). Or anyone could get up a shield.
It doesn't happen. Why? Because they are popped up in the air. There are a few frames where they need to go from in the air to landing before landing lag. It's almost exactly 6 by my count for anyone even at 0% (with small growth at high %). So it will not register as a "true" combo, but it is in all practical terms.
Ok, so why does up-tilt work so well? Makes even less sense, it's frame 15 vs. d-tilt's frame 6. Even if soft hits of up-air->dtilt is a frame advantage true combo, surely up-tilt isn't. Even if the first 6 frames are guaranteed that's still 15-6 = 9 frames to play with right?
Can you be knocked out of up-air->up-tilt? Yes, you can, by a perfectly timed fast jab. Can they possibly shield? Yes. Can they possibly tech? Yes. But the window to do so is very very small and it is very ugly if you screw up. Why?
Because of buffering. Buffering is what is slaughtering people. Whether accidental or intentional buffering is making up-air->up-tilt "work". Even good players who try to tech can instead buffer an airdodge, which means 22 frames of landing lag, or they buffer an aeriall, and they are screwed, the game registers them airdodging/attacking into the the ground not the the tech. If you look closely at the video you can see this effect in several places, the bowser (a crazy good player) is most obvious, he pulls out f-air, and he suffers the full landing lag of his aerial and is screwed. What this means is that up-air -> up-tilt is not guaranteed but it's *just short of guaranteed*. It's very very good and means Samus' up-tilt combo game goes from being a theoretical threat to a really significant threat.


So for those interested here's the very detailed breakdown of what you're seeing in the video.

0.24: The RoachCake combo + string. The first b-air is a true combo, the second is a (very tight) string.
0:30 Falcon tries to rapid jab me. DI/SDI to get above him. Use 5-frame up-air combo breaker. I have 20 damage, he has 5 after the up-air, that means effectively 7 damage, enough to knock him into full hitstun from the up-tilt and allow the up-tilt->d-tilt combo. Capt falcon needs a bit of damage on him for up-tilt->dtilt to true combo. The sweetspot would be at 13 damage, 7 is close enough.
0:38 Kirby gets full hitstun from an up-tilt at 0%, so up-tilt->d-tilt is true combo and I punish his d-smash for 26%.
0:40 Same scenario. Zero suit's magic number is 31, the combo sweetspot is -25 = 6 damage, it's well within the range. I hit with the heel in both cases, which gives the best combo follow up window. Dash Up-smash is actually a great string folllow up.
0:47 Falcon is at 32 + 1 = 33, well within the b-air sourspot -> f-ftilt. The b-air lands high but very deep because he misses his dash. He misses the tech on falling prone, the f-tilt lands.
0:50 Falcon at zero, very deep, frame cancels and true combos. I angle it for more damage because I know the % is very low.
0:54 SH N-air approach on pacman is actually quite good. The wi-fi grab is slow, it's quite safe. N-air d-tilt catches him once on shield and once in true combo.
1:07 Same.
1:15 N-air lands high on Ike at 17%. The n-air into dash is just barely not a true combo in this case it's a tight string. The rest of the dash is a true combo. 38 damage total.
1:20 DK rolls into me at the ledge while I short-hop. Regular, non fast-fall multihit of up-air counters the roll and the final hit of up-air leads to a true combo b-air.
1:26 Mario starts at 38 + 4 = 42% damage. From the table his magic number is 35 and that means he's well within range of grab double. 28 damage out of a grab.
1:34 Fox is at 28+5 = 33%. Magic number is 30. He's within range of a grab double. If I tried for grab->up-air->CS I might miss, even as a fast faller. 27 damage out of a grab.
1:45 Sonic is at 0+3 = 3%. His magic number is 31, I can definitely aim for the grab triple. 36 damage to the rodent out of a grab.
2:00 I miss the B-air -> F-tilt, not deep enough. Samus is at 21 + 1 = 22%. Samus magic number is 33 - she is hard to combo despite being a super-heavy weight. Magic - 15 = 18% sweetspot for a dash->up-air->CS. I go for it
and barely get it. This is an unforgiving combo.
2:09 Villager is at 25 + 1 = 26%. Magic number is 29. It should land best circa 19, near the end of the range but connects. True combo, 42 guaranteed damage out of a single grab.
2:16 Lucina is at 16 + 10 = 26%. Magic number is 32. It should land best circa 23, prime range and it connects. Perfect example of rage mechanic understood.
2:22 Pit is at 42 + 5 = 47%. Magic is 33. Uptilt -> FJ -> CS sweetspot 48, bang on. Cross-up up-air, even if he shielded, no shield grab possible. 41 damage.
2:30 TLink is at 45+10 = 55%. Magic is 29. Uptilt -> FJ -> CS sweetspot 44. Near the edge of the combo range, but it works. 40 damage. This was not the best player. He saw the up-tilt and air-dodged into the ground, bad idea.
2:34 MewTwo is at 36 + 5 = 41%. Magic is 25. I can FJ or SH, both are within combo range. I had Mewtwo's number wrong in the OP incidentally, it's 25, not 31, his combo physics are weird due to falling animation.
2:38 TLink is at 65 + 11 = 76%. Magic is 29. D-air -> FJ -> CS within range (it's broad).
2:47 MewTwo is at 76+6 = 82%. He is out of range of up-tilt->DJ-> CS which would sweetspot at 65, tip of the range would be around 75, so he's just a bit beyond. I go for it and hope for a conditioned air-dodge. Bingo.
2:56 Kirby is at 23+11 = 34. Magic is 23. He is out of range of Up-tilt double but just barely and I know this. I hope for a conditioned air-dodge. Bingo.
3:09 People on for-glory who are not Samus mains and switch to Samus to try and beat my own irritate me.
3:12 Kirby cannot be dash tripled - Magic is 23 and dash triples would sweetspot at -8, it's just bad, you're going to get a double in practice. He can on the other hand be up-air tripled, that sweetspots at roughly 12 damage, well within range.
3:20 An example of offensive tracking DI to maintain the combo. At these low % he has very little control but I hunt him down in the air keeping the combo going.
3:30 Another example of offensive DI. Also with Samus at 0% and Falcon at 0% the dash triple lands poorly, sweetspot would be falcon at 8%. Samus with 97% and rage means this combo sweetspots.
3:37 Sonic at 25 + 10 = 35. Magic is 31. Almost perfect. Big damage time! 49%
3:44 Bowser at 25 + 5 = 30. Magic is 41. The reason this true combos is because almost all the hits of up-air land, meaning at the start of the up-tilt he's at 29. It's really even then at the tip of the early end of the combo range but it's true, not a string. 54% all told. This Bowser was insanely good.
3:48 Fox at 32 +2= 34. Magic is 30. Cross-up up-air.
3:58 Jiggly at 20 + 2 = 22. Magic is 19. When you're a light character and you're hit for 50 damage, the set is all but over, there's really no coming back.
The ledge get-up-attack CS tech chase is completely safe on reflector fast fallers (fox, falco) since you fall back off the stage with the CS automatically.
 
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Fluidityt

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The simple explanation of how to do these is that you don't need to be that amazing or do a whole pile of killer math. You definitely need to practice a whole pile in training mode to get the aerial CS timing down, which can be easy (up-tilt starter) or very hard (dash starter). The VAST bulk of the cast sits in and around a magic number of 30. If you simply learn how to combo one character, say fox who sits precisely at 30, then you can intuitively adjust a bit to know how to combo all the others.
Subtracting, particularly in the middle of a fight, does not work for me. I am not some sort of savant. I keep a few numbers in my head and the only calculation I do is add 1/10th of Samus' damage to the opponents.
I'm typically always watching for 15, 20 and 30. 15 is the dash -> up-air -> CS, 20 is the grab->up-air->CS and 30 is magic where tons of good stuff can happen out of an up-tilt.

The next and most important thing I recently discovered is about up-tilt. In the video you see tons of people getting up-tilted, are they all "bad" players who can't tech? The answer is no. The key is up-air. If you notice I will FF up-air->up-tilt and it miraculously seems to land.
This comes back to Roach Cake's insistence that I add in this thread the soft-hits of u-air to d-tilt combo. He insisted on it, and despite all my testing in training mode I couldn't get it to true combo, the hitstun is not enough from the small hits.
If you play enough you realize this just "works". The up-B variant as well. It just does. Why? Game says it's not a true combo. This puzzled me for a while. From frame data it makes no sense. It's 11 frames landing lag for up-air and 6 frames to get out d-tilt. That's 17 frames. Anyone with a quick jab, or even just a grab should smack us around. But no, never happens. WHY?
The first part is frame cancelling. Up-air frame cancels something like 99% of the time. It's amazing. This means you go from 11 frames to 4.
The next part is that the opponent is popped up by the soft hits and must land. In smash 4, even if you do absolutely nothing, you incur 4 frames of landing lag. So relative to the opponent because of frame cancelling, you are at zero frame advantage.
But it's better than that. If it was just zero frame advantage little mac could jab you with his frame 1 jab vs. your frame 6 d-tilt. But with enough damage, he can't, at all (my testing, someone else could confirm). Or anyone could get up a shield.
It doesn't happen. Why? Because they are popped up in the air. There are a few frames where they need to go from in the air to landing before landing lag. It's almost exactly 6 by my count for anyone even at 0% (with small growth at high %). So it will not register as a "true" combo, but it is in all practical terms.
Ok, so why does up-tilt work so well? Makes even less sense, it's frame 15 vs. d-tilt's frame 6. Even if soft hits of up-air->dtilt is a frame advantage true combo, surely up-tilt isn't. Even if the first 6 frames are guaranteed that's still 15-6 = 9 frames to play with right?
Can you be knocked out of up-air->up-tilt? Yes, you can, by a perfectly timed fast jab. Can they possibly shield? Yes. Can they possibly tech? Yes. But the window to do so is very very small and it is very ugly if you screw up. Why?
Because of buffering. Buffering is what is slaughtering people. Whether accidental or intentional buffering is making up-air->up-tilt "work". Even good players who try to tech can instead buffer an airdodge, which means 22 frames of landing lag, or they buffer an aeriall, and they are screwed, the game registers them airdodging/attacking into the the ground not the the tech. If you look closely at the video you can see this effect in several places, the bowser (a crazy good player) is most obvious, he pulls out f-air, and he suffers the full landing lag of his aerial and is screwed. What this means is that up-air -> up-tilt is not guaranteed but it's *just short of guaranteed*. It's very very good and means Samus' up-tilt combo game goes from being a theoretical threat to a really significant threat.


So for those interested here's the very detailed breakdown of what you're seeing in the video.

0.24: The RoachCake combo + string. The first b-air is a true combo, the second is a (very tight) string.
0:30 Falcon tries to rapid jab me. DI/SDI to get above him. Use 5-frame up-air combo breaker. I have 20 damage, he has 5 after the up-air, that means effectively 7 damage, enough to knock him into full hitstun from the up-tilt and allow the up-tilt->d-tilt combo. Capt falcon needs a bit of damage on him for up-tilt->dtilt to true combo. The sweetspot would be at 13 damage, 7 is close enough.
0:38 Kirby gets full hitstun from an up-tilt at 0%, so up-tilt->d-tilt is true combo and I punish his d-smash for 26%.
0:40 Same scenario. Zero suit's magic number is 31, the combo sweetspot is -25 = 6 damage, it's well within the range. I hit with the heel in both cases, which gives the best combo follow up window. Dash Up-smash is actually a great string folllow up.
0:47 Falcon is at 32 + 1 = 33, well within the b-air sourspot -> f-ftilt. The b-air lands high but very deep because he misses his dash. He misses the tech on falling prone, the f-tilt lands.
0:50 Falcon at zero, very deep, frame cancels and true combos. I angle it for more damage because I know the % is very low.
0:54 SH N-air approach on pacman is actually quite good. The wi-fi grab is slow, it's quite safe. N-air d-tilt catches him once on shield and once in true combo.
1:07 Same.
1:15 N-air lands high on Ike at 17%. The n-air into dash is just barely not a true combo in this case it's a tight string. The rest of the dash is a true combo. 38 damage total.
1:20 DK rolls into me at the ledge while I short-hop. Regular, non fast-fall multihit of up-air counters the roll and the final hit of up-air leads to a true combo b-air.
1:26 Mario starts at 38 + 4 = 40% damage. From the table his magic number is 35 and that means he's well within range of grab double. 28 damage out of a grab.
1:34 Fox is at 28+5 = 33%. Magic number is 30. He's within range of a grab double. If I tried for grab->up-air->CS I might miss, even as a fast faller. 27 damage out of a grab.
1:45 Sonic is at 0+3 = 3%. His magic number is 31, I can definitely aim for the grab triple. 36 damage to the rodent out of a grab.
2:00 I miss the B-air -> F-tilt, not deep enough. Samus is at 21 + 1 = 22%. Samus magic number is 33 - she is hard to combo despite being a super-heavy weight. Magic - 15 = 18% sweetspot for a dash->up-air->CS. I go for it
and barely get it. This is an unforgiving combo.
2:09 Villager is at 25 + 1 = 26%. Magic number is 29. It should land best circa 19, near the end of the range but connects. True combo, 42 guaranteed damage out of a single grab.
2:16 Lucina is at 16 + 10 = 26%. Magic number is 32. It should land best circa 23, prime range and it connects. Perfect example of rage mechanic understood.
2:22 Pit is at 42 + 5 = 47%. Magic is 33. Uptilt -> FJ -> CS sweetspot 48, bang on. Cross-up up-air, even if he shielded, no shield grab possible. 41 damage.
2:30 TLink is at 45+10 = 55%. Magic is 29. Uptilt -> FJ -> CS sweetspot 44. Near the edge of the combo range, but it works. 40 damage. This was not the best player. He saw the up-tilt and air-dodged into the ground, bad idea.
2:34 MewTwo is at 36 + 5 = 41%. Magic is 25. I can FJ or SH, both are within combo range. I had Mewtwo's number wrong in the OP incidentally, it's 25, not 31, his combo physics are weird due to falling animation.
2:38 TLink is at 65 + 11 = 76%. Magic is 29. D-air -> FJ -> CS within range (it's broad).
2:47 MewTwo is at 76+6 = 82%. He is out of range of up-tilt->DJ-> CS which would sweetspot at 65, tip of the range would be around 75, so he's just a bit beyond. I go for it and hope for a conditioned air-dodge. Bingo.
2:56 Kirby is at 23+11 = 34. Magic is 23. He is out of range of Up-tilt double but just barely and I know this. I hope for a conditioned air-dodge. Bingo.
3:09 People on for-glory who are not Samus mains and switch to Samus to try and beat my own irritate me.
3:12 Kirby cannot be dash tripled - Magic is 23 and dash triples would sweetspot at -8, it's just bad, you're going to get a double in practice. He can on the other hand be up-air tripled, that sweetspots at roughly 12 damage, well within range.
3:20 An example of offensive tracking DI to maintain the combo. At these low % he has very little control but I hunt him down in the air keeping the combo going.
3:30 Another example of offensive DI. Also with Samus at 0% and Falcon at 0% the dash triple lands poorly, sweetspot would be falcon at 8%. Samus with 97% and rage means this combo sweetspots.
3:37 Sonic at 25 + 10 = 35. Magic is 31. Almost perfect. Big damage time! 49%
3:44 Bowser at 25 + 5 = 30. Magic is 41. The reason this true combos is because almost all the hits of up-air land, meaning at the start of the up-tilt he's at 29. It's really even then at the tip of the early end of the combo range but it's true, not a string. 54% all told. This Bowser was insanely good.
3:48 Fox at 32 +2= 34. Magic is 30. Cross-up up-air.
3:58 Jiggly at 20 + 2 = 22. Magic is 19. When you're a light character and you're hit for 50 damage, the set is all but over, there's really no coming back.
The ledge get-up-attack CS tech chase is completely safe on reflector fast fallers (fox, falco) since you fall back off the stage with the CS automatically.
thanks for doing all this
 

E.Lopez

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Thank you for the detailed breakdown. Rest assured I am studying this very closely!

1:26 Mario starts at 38 + 4 = 40% damage. From the table his magic number is 35 and that means he's well within range of grab double. 28 damage out of a grab.
Am I reading the table correctly in the OP? The table indicates that from a Grab (I'm assuming this means d-throw), you have 3 follow-ups at (magic number - 10):

FJ-F-air
FJ-Dash-Up-Airx2
Up-Air-CS

(By the way, "FJ-Dash-Up-Airx2:" does this mean that after d-throw, you dash -> FJ -> Up-Air x2? The Dash seems out of the correct order.)

and only one other follow-up at (magic number + 30):

DJ-F-Air

Is the table missing the doubles?
Also, minor math error in your post: 38 + 4 = 42

DungeonMaster said:
The ledge get-up-attack CS tech chase is completely safe on reflector fast fallers (fox, falco) since you fall back off the stage with the CS automatically.
You're right! I never realized how useful that could actually be in that it pushes Samus back. But yeah, safe and out of the way of a potential reflect.

Oh, and I just thought of one more thing: Xygonn is a strong advocate of using Samus' pummel every time you grab since it's so fast, but depending on the extra damage you dish out, you might set yourself outside of the combo window if you start with a grab, right? So then: no pummel if you're planning a specific combo then?

Slightly off topic but speaking of pummel: is it a good strategy to grab an opponent who is at KO %, pummel nonstop until they eventually break free, and CS them? I've seen Samus mains use this and it seems to work well, maybe because the opponent is mashing to break free and not expecting the CS?
 
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DungeonMaster

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Am I reading the table correctly in the OP? The table indicates that from a Grab (I'm assuming this means d-throw), you have 3 follow-ups at (magic number - 10):
FJ-F-air
FJ-Dash-Up-Airx2
Up-Air-CS
Yep, I could simply go for the trivially easy FH-Fair and 17 damage or I could try for the more difficult to execute double. Table is a bit out of date in places, and I need to include more things. But yeah up-airx2 means I have two follow ups. If I had a CS - I didn't - I would just CS the *******.

(By the way, "FJ-Dash-Up-Airx2:" does this mean that after d-throw, you dash -> FJ -> Up-Air x2? The Dash seems out of the correct order.)
Yeah dash is out of order... you definitely need to input the very short dash immediately after the d-throw. Otherwise up-air just completely misses. It's a bit tricky to get at first but it really ramps up your damage out of the throws like crazy. I don't think there's any other character in the game that gets 20, 30, up to 45 guaranteed damage out of a throw.

and only one other follow-up at (magic number + 30):
DJ-F-Air
Yep, your only hope at that high % is to get a single. DI starts to affect their trajectory significantly as well so it's a bit hard to land at times. AfroSmash has been able to combo b-air out of the grab too.


@ Fluidityt Fluidityt No problem! I'm very pleased at how much complexity this character has and how much we've all contributed towards making her viable, even perhaps, great.
 
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E.Lopez

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Awesome, thanks @ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster .

I think you were replying to my post as I was making an edit (I didn't want to double post), so this may have been overlooked, but a couple more questions (for you or anyone else):

Oh, and I just thought of one more thing: Xygonn is a strong advocate of using Samus' pummel every time you grab since it's so fast, but depending on the extra damage you dish out, you might set yourself outside of the combo window if you start with a grab, right? So then: no pummel if you're planning a specific combo then?

Slightly off topic but speaking of pummel: is it a good strategy to grab an opponent who is at KO %, pummel nonstop until they eventually break free, and CS them? I've seen Samus mains use this and it seems to work well, maybe because the opponent is mashing to break free and not expecting the CS?
 

Xygonn

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Awesome, thanks @ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster .

I think you were replying to my post as I was making an edit (I didn't want to double post), so this may have been overlooked, but a couple more questions (for you or anyone else):
I would say you are only doing 1.2% damage on a single pummel, so it should still be worth it on your stale queue even if not for damage. It would have to already be very tight for 1.2% to matter. Between rage, DI, and stale queue, I would think it would be in the noise.

Pummel release to CS is what some people might call "cheeky". It works maybe once in a set, but it can be shielded. It's exactly the panic of button mashing you are trying take advantage of.
 

DungeonMaster

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Yeah I fully agree with @ Xygonn Xygonn on both counts. Pummelling will get lost in the noise. His rule of thumb is only a few guaranteed ones within the 0-100 range of prime importance to combos. What is your rule of thumb again Xygonn? I keep forgetting...
 

Xygonn

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Yeah I fully agree with @ Xygonn Xygonn on both counts. Pummelling will get lost in the noise. His rule of thumb is only a few guaranteed ones within the 0-100 range of prime importance to combos. What is your rule of thumb again Xygonn? I keep forgetting...
1 @ 0% + 1 every 50%. So 2 @ 50%, 3 @ 100%, 4 @150%. I haven't actually done a good job labbing this against lvl 9 cpus or a controller with a turbo auto though. I should probably refine this to actual guaranteed pummels.

I recently played someone that mashed out of one at ten percent. I don't know if I was too slow putting in my throw or if they are just that good at mashing.

Something that may help those of you having a hard time remembering to pummel, you can also hit grab again to pummel instead of a. So every time you hit z (or whatever your button is) to grab just hit z again, it won't matter if you actually land the grab or not since you are going to be sitting there for a second no matter what.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Thanks, it would be great if you could verify and I'll add it into compendium section. Isn't the best way of mashing out just rotating the direction stick?
Another thing against fast-fallers - pummel -> f-throw can catch them mashing and create a tech chase situation. If they tech roll towards you the timing of f-smash/d-smash is almost perfect to nail them. D-smash can throw them into yet another tech chase. I've landed f-throw -> d-smash -> CS sequence once in 1.04.
 

DungeonMaster

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Jab1 now connects and registers as a true combo out of up-air sourspot. I swear I tested this many many times before - could it be the patch?!? I can get a 16 damage true combo out SH AD up-air -> jab1 + jab2. This is extremely useful against fox, falco and falcon as it sets up the CS tech chase at those %.
I was thinking of making a little video on why up-air sourspots -> up-tilt work so well, and figuring out what and who can break out of it when I found this.

EDIT: Wait... it is only fox and falco, can't get it to register on falcon or rob. What the hell is going on here?
 
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Xygonn

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Jab1 now connects and registers as a true combo out of up-air sourspot. I swear I tested this many many times before - could it be the patch?!? I can get a 16 damage true combo out SH AD up-air -> jab1 + jab2. This is extremely useful against fox, falco and falcon as it sets up the CS tech chase at those %.
I was thinking of making a little video on why up-air sourspots -> up-tilt work so well, and figuring out what and who can break out of it when I found this.

EDIT: Wait... it is only fox and falco, can't get it to register on falcon or rob. What the hell is going on here?
Landing during hit stun?
 

Afro Smash

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It registered pre patch as well im pretty sure
 
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AgentM

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Was watching a tournament on twitch when they played this (warning, cheesy commentary ahead): https://youtu.be/e_9RbkdZTuw?t=174. Relevant part starts at 2:54.

Basically it's jab1 (on edge of stage, you have make your opponent slide off) ---> (reverse?) bomb ledge cancel ---> footstool. I don't know for sure about the bomb ledge cancel, but I can't make it work with just running off the stage regularly, and I can't bomb ledge cancel very well yet so I haven't been able to test it out myself. It may also be that this is only possible on Bowser.

Can any of you guys manage to pull it off?

(Also a huge thanks to all of you guys in this thread for the gold mine of information. I'm absolutely loving just how deep of a character Samus is.)
 

Xygonn

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Was watching a tournament on twitch when they played this (warning, cheesy commentary ahead): https://youtu.be/e_9RbkdZTuw?t=174. Relevant part starts at 2:54.

Basically it's jab1 (on edge of stage, you have make your opponent slide off) ---> (reverse?) bomb ledge cancel ---> footstool. I don't know for sure about the bomb ledge cancel, but I can't make it work with just running off the stage regularly, and I can't bomb ledge cancel very well yet so I haven't been able to test it out myself. It may also be that this is only possible on Bowser.

Can any of you guys manage to pull it off?

(Also a huge thanks to all of you guys in this thread for the gold mine of information. I'm absolutely loving just how deep of a character Samus is.)
It's just a run off fast fall to the footstool. It's pretty tight timing. Also, I'll plug my guide since you are new here:

http://smashboards.com/guides/outsmarting-mother-brain.343/
 
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DungeonMaster

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I've cleaned up a bit of the OP. More to come, I need to fix the main table and add in horizontal starter combos which I think I've pinned down now.
Added: @AFRO-smash Dash (sourspot) -> CS, grab -> b-air

I spent an hour over the weekend investigating up-air sourspots and the up-air -> jab 1 (+jab2) combo. Initially I thought the combo counter was simply misbehaving, sometimes registering it as a combo, sometimes not because
it's so very tight. You can try this on say Mario at 70 damage in training. Same inputs will sometimes have it land as a combo, sometimes not.
So I checked the whole cast. It ALWAYS registers on anything lighter than Peach and NEVER registers on anything heavier than Shulk. Everyone in between is random whether it says true combo or not.
I also tested my theory as to why people are having trouble both teching and avoiding the up-air sourspots -> up-tilt.
The first thing is up-air sourspots -> d-tilt or up-B is a true combo on anyone except little mac. Little mac can (rarely) get out his 2 frame neutral air and interrupt. Any of the 3-frame aerial crew (diddy, luigi, shiek, etc...) cannot. The specifics of their animations, fall rates don't allow it to come out before they land. It's really only mac who can.
The second thing is up-air sourspots -> up-tilt is guaranteed against anyone with a 5-frame jab. (DK, Link, Lucario, Marth, etc...). If they mash for jab and get lucky, the up-tilt still beats them. For 4 frame jabs (Duck hunt, Ike, etc...) they can win
if they're again, very lucky but sometimes the up-tilt actually out-prioritizes them because it deals 8 more damage than their jab, so it's winning on actual priority (fancy that! Samus has some priority...). 3 frame and below can always beat it.
The buffering is very real, tons of characters who mash incur more than 4 frames of landing lag and trying to shield will produce air-dodge-into-ground 22 frames at which point the up-tilt always lands.
A few other notes: when you hit someone their character turns to face you. Up-air on cross up can land its last hit before Samus crosses them up completely. This means their character is facing away as you begin the up-tilt. No one, not even mac or zero-suit 1 frame jabs can interrupt the up-tilt, pivoting takes up the remaining frame room to work with.
So the window of interrupt is on average 5 frames, and in certain cross ups it's zero. Good!
 

Afro Smash

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Pulled Off a sexy Zair 1 > Jump Cancelled Up Smash on an airborne Jiggly, it's most likely a string but kinda looks like a combo, could do nicely to catch people we hit with zair whilst theyre airborne


Edit: Also Sour Dash Attack > RAR Bair is a true combo
 
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DungeonMaster

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@ Afro Smash Afro Smash Yeah it's a nice tight string, but I just tried even with frame cancelling its not a combo. It's quite hard to get z-air -> F-smash to register and at very high %, that is 10 frames to play with. I think z-air->up-smash eventually must true combo since up-smash is 11 frames if you believe the old pastebin. Z-air 1 damage knockback does grow, unlike the sour hits of up-air, you can see that with 999 damage in training.
Can you plz give me a range on the dash (sour) -> b-air? It took me 25 minutes to get it register 15 damage combo = 2 on the counter even once. Are you crazy good at RAR or am I just bad? :p
I always thought you couldn't pivot at the start of a dash animation, you had to be running, I'm not sure where I got that idea from, maybe brawl.
 
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Squaddle

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Samus can't wavebounce or b-reverse her missles or charge shot, right? I've been messing around in training quite a bit but I can't seem to get it to work...
 

DungeonMaster

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@ A AgentM These are all the characters with less than or equal 3 frame jab: Falcon, Diddy, Falco, Fox, Greninja, Kirby, Little mac, Luigi, Mario, MiiBrawler, Villager, Ness, Peach, Pika, Rob, Megaman, Samus, Shiek, Sonic, ZeroSuit, Yoshi.
Of that list, some are quite tight and risk buffering a n-air and getting additional landing lag. From experimentation Rob, Peach, Falcon, Kirby, Luigi, Sheik. I don't really understand why, it's a combination of how fast they transition to landing lag out of n-air, the animation and hitstun. 1, 2 or 3 hits seems to be important as well with more hits allowing for more chances of n-air input and maybe an extra frame from lifting them a bit higher in the air - which is relevant because some of these guys transition to landing lag frame 4 (falcon) vs. frame 3 (shiek).
 

AgentM

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@ A AgentM These are all the characters with less than or equal 3 frame jab: Falcon, Diddy, Falco, Fox, Greninja, Kirby, Little mac, Luigi, Mario, MiiBrawler, Villager, Ness, Peach, Pika, Rob, Megaman, Samus, Shiek, Sonic, ZeroSuit, Yoshi.
Of that list, some are quite tight and risk buffering a n-air and getting additional landing lag. From experimentation Rob, Peach, Falcon, Kirby, Luigi, Sheik. I don't really understand why, it's a combination of how fast they transition to landing lag out of n-air, the animation and hitstun. 1, 2 or 3 hits seems to be important as well with more hits allowing for more chances of n-air input and maybe an extra frame from lifting them a bit higher in the air - which is relevant because some of these guys transition to landing lag frame 4 (falcon) vs. frame 3 (shiek).
Thanks, gonna have to memorize that. Let me ask a few questions to make sure I understand.

3 frame jab is the shortest, correct? Nothing shorter?

U-air sour ---> jab1 only true combos on anyone lighter than peach, randomly true combos on anyone heavier than peach and lighter than shulk, and will not true combo on anyone heavier than shulk?

Even though the combo counter doesn't count it, u-air sour ---> d-tilt or up b true combos (except on little mac because of his n-air) because you induce 4 frames of landing lag on them, plus your u-air landing lag is canceled on hit?

U-air sour ---> u-tilt works all the time on anyone with a 5 frame jab, most of the time on anyone with a 4 frame jab, and "none" of the time on anyone with a 3 frame jab?

And then my last question is about u-air sour w/ cross up after last hit ---> u-tilt. You said it's pretty much guaranteed because in addition to their landing frames, and your canceled u-air landing lag on hit, you force them to pivot if they want to attack during the u-tilt wind up. But don't side specials and side tilts that skip the pivot animation entirely? Some of which could hit within that 5 frame window? Also, once they land, wouldn't your opponent be able to just shield instead of pivoting (with a high chance of power shield) leaving you vulnerable as your u-tilt ends? (This last scenario actually happened to me against a fox a few days ago, which left me wondering whether it was something I did wrong or what...)
 

Xygonn

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Thanks, gonna have to memorize that. Let me ask a few questions to make sure I understand.

3 frame jab is the shortest, correct? Nothing shorter?

U-air sour ---> jab1 only true combos on anyone lighter than peach, randomly true combos on anyone heavier than peach and lighter than shulk, and will not true combo on anyone heavier than shulk?

Even though the combo counter doesn't count it, u-air sour ---> d-tilt or up b true combos (except on little mac because of his n-air) because you induce 4 frames of landing lag on them, plus your u-air landing lag is canceled on hit?

U-air sour ---> u-tilt works all the time on anyone with a 5 frame jab, most of the time on anyone with a 4 frame jab, and "none" of the time on anyone with a 3 frame jab?

And then my last question is about u-air sour w/ cross up after last hit ---> u-tilt. You said it's pretty much guaranteed because in addition to their landing frames, and your canceled u-air landing lag on hit, you force them to pivot if they want to attack during the u-tilt wind up. But don't side specials and side tilts that skip the pivot animation entirely? Some of which could hit within that 5 frame window? Also, once they land, wouldn't your opponent be able to just shield instead of pivoting (with a high chance of power shield) leaving you vulnerable as your u-tilt ends? (This last scenario actually happened to me against a fox a few days ago, which left me wondering whether it was something I did wrong or what...)
nopers.

captain 3
diddy 3
greninja 3
kirby 3
vilager 3
ness 3
rob 3
samus 3
sonic 3
yoshi 3
falco 2
fox 2
luigi 2
mario 2
dr. mario 2
mii fighter 2
peach 2
pikachu 2
megaman 2
sheik 2
little mac 1
ZSS 1
 
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DungeonMaster

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@ A AgentM Yeah it's 3-frame or less that I listed, Xygonn just listed them all in detail (thanks). All those characters, if they mash "a: button *can* interrupt it. It's a maybe, not a definite.
Answer is yes on all your other counts.
I haven't considered tilts and/or specials, it's a good point. For certain some specials are fast enough to get within the 5-frame window. I'm pretty confident some can definitely interrupt, likely counters (aka, marth, lucina) because counters have no landing lag and are identical in the air as on the ground. Mac's 1 fram up-B can definitely get him out for instance.
And yes again I explicitly mentioned your opponent can get a shield in if they're very fast/lucky. Up-air (sour) -> Up-tilt is not a true combo. It merely shrinks what is a 15 frame window to react down to roughly 5 frames and if the opponent inputs the wrong action, or even the "right" action like say shield at the wrong time, that buffered action can screw them. There's risk/reward to take into account.
 
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SpandexBullets

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Samus's jab is so dissapointing.
You can't even combo with it (reliably).
You can't jab>grab
You can't jab>dsmash
You can't jab>fsmash
You can't even jab>jab

Sakurwhy
 

AgentM

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Sorry, I missed that part about the shielding. Thanks DM, and thank you too Xygonn!
 

Scream

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Samus's jab is so dissapointing.
You can't even combo with it (reliably).
You can't jab>grab
You can't jab>dsmash
You can't jab>fsmash
You can't even jab>jab
Well you can do Falling Up-Air -> Jab1 -> Fsmash and have it be a true combo at certain percents.
 

Tumultus

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Why is it that if you sour spot u-air on certain character's shields they can grab you before you land? It really annoys me. Shouldn't they get interrupted out of their grab attempt because of u-air's fast multihit properties?
 

AgentM

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@ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster Do you happen to know how many frames of landing lag a stage-canceled z-air has? I'm wondering if there are any viable "untrue" combos possible with z-air from forcing your opponent to go through those 4 frames of landing lag...
 

DungeonMaster

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Significant update of the combo table. I've finally added in the horizontal combos out of n-air and b-air as well as super missile. Spent quite some time making sure the numbers are solid for the entire cast.
I'm still convinced horizontal knockback is different than vertical, there is considerable variation in combo ranges in horizontal combos, however disentangling all the effects of hitbox, hurtbox, fast-fall etc.. that's for another person to do for another character that combos mostly horizontally (say sheik, and not me). Rather than using another number to describe these in perfect detail the magic number system works with more than enough accuracy.
It's not super important to know that the n-air -> d-tilt lands with a huge range, very nearly the same as n-air -> f-tilt on DK, for instance. I feel that's matchup knowledge and character specific rather than broad understanding of how to combo in general.

I've intentionally excluded frame cancelling combos from the main table, largely because they're unreliable in a real fight, it's more of an opportunistic event than a solid combo. The b-air sour has a different structure to it than n-air, particularly ignoring frame cancelling. If it does frame cancel, it behaves essentially like n-air albeit with -5 damage than the n-air combos since it does do more damage and slightly more knockback. What's listed is totally reliable, no-fail, you won't screw yourself for trying it, all you need is a deep jump in and suffering the full landing lag.
People have asked me repeatedly for the super-missile combos in private chat, now listed are the numbers to hit anything big or small, fast faller or floaty. They are broad combos at the high end and tighter at the low end, at the high end against a fast-faller with huge combo window like D3 you can go considerably higher than the sweetspot indicates.

@ A AgentM I don't actually - it's a good point. I've heard 20 frames bandied around, but I don't actually know.
@ Tumultus Tumultus Without seeing a video example I can't really explain that. Hits beat out grabs in this game. The frame data we have is that the sour spots hit on frames 8-9 and the final 4% hit is on frame 20. Theoretically you could be shied grabbed since average grab is a 6 frame action. I've never seen it before!
@ Scream Scream I haven't thought of that - can you confirm your %s? Are you saying the sourspots provide lift that jab1 doesn't giving landing lag on the opponent allowing for f-smash to connect?
@ SpandexBullets SpandexBullets Well we can moan and complain or we can work with what we have. Jab1 causes a lot of slide - so do sourspots of f-tilt. This is a "work with what we have" thread, there are other moaning and complaining threads. Since you're interested in jab -> grab do you want to figure out the %s for R.O.B where this is a solid string? Could it even combo? The training mode doesn't register grabs as combos so I don't know and I'm often alone to do my testing.
 
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Afro Smash

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I'd be happy to lab with you DM if there's anythign you wanna test that you'd need a human for, I doubt jab > grab will ever combo though since ive never got jab > dash attack to combo
 

DungeonMaster

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Thanks, I'll definitely add you. Like I keep telling other people, my hours are *very* irregular for the next many months so expect random. Sometime around December I expect to return to a normal worklife and hence normal play hours, until then sadly no guarantees. I doubt jab -> grab and f-tilt sour -> grab as well, we, someone, should test to know.
 

Afro Smash

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I true combo'd 12% hit Bair in to 14% hit Bair on Toon Link at about 40% whilst i was just messing around, so it can true combo not just string

Am finding it very hard to recreate, might be some frame perfect ****

Edit: Nvm mind did it again, seems easier if u hit them in such a way that u dont have tojump again to hit them, although i did combo it with a jump too

Edit 2: Combos on Falcon from around 50%, if you wnna test it yourself set CPU to jump and meet them at the apex or the way down with a 12% bair
 
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Scream

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@ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster
Comboing Sourspot Up-Air -> Jab1 is very strange, sometimes it shows as a true combo, sometimes it does not.
But i'm fairly convinced that it is as i have done a lot of testing with a human opponent.

Jab1 -> Fsmash does not combo in terms of hitstun, but the opponent is forced to land into it.
Same as before i have done a lot of testing on it and at the right percents where Jab1 pushes the opponent into the Fsmash sweetspot it seems inescapable.
 
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