The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Inferno3044]

The Mario Matchup Thread;

Threads of Reference
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174907


If you think another thread needs to be linked, just say so.
Also, these discussions will be by you. I'll quote, then organize accordingly.​

What to discuss;

• Your opinion on the matchup ratio.

• Moves to look out for.

• Most valuable asset for Mario.

• How should you play this?

Ratio Archive

Disadvantages:

- 70:30 w/ infinite

- 65:35

- 65:35

- 62:38

- 60:40 w/o infinite

- 60:40

- 60:40

Slight Disadvantages:

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55-45

- 55:45

- 52:48

Even:

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

:shiek: - 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

- 50:50

Slight Advantages:

- 55:45

- 55:45 overall.

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55:45

- 55:45

Advantages:

- 60:40

- 60:40

- 60:40

- 60:40

- 60:40

- 65:35

Ness

lol
______________________

Victim #1: Meta Knight.

Page 1 - Page 4

Summaries; in Detail.

Click here for SkylerOcon's summary.
Click here for A2's summary.
Click here for Matador's summary.

Matchup Sub-section.

TL;DR version: Get matchup experience, and play your best. Don't get gimped early, do not try to make an attempt to chain Uairs, tilts, or any of the usual stuff. Find a stage where you feel most comfortable on.

Counterpicks: Any stage with a low ceiling can work more in your favor than his. Consider Brinstar, Halberd, and Green Greens if it's legal in your area. If you're forced to pick a neutral, go FD. Every time, it takes away his platform control.

Bans: Rainbow Cruise. Meta Knight dominates this stage.

Additional Info & Matchup Tidbits: If there was ever a time when you should play defensive, now is that time. His Tornado can be FLUDDed offstage if you time it right, and caping his glide puts him a considerable distance away. He'll be forced to either Shuttle Loop, or Drill Rush his way back. Predict it, and you'll get an early gimp that could win you the match.

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______________________

Victim #2: Snake

Page 5 - Page 8

Summaries; in Detail.

Click here for Kirin's summary.
Click here for Matador's summary.
Click here for SkylerOcon's summary.

Matchup Sub-section.

TL;DR version: Snake has a pretty simple game. Tilts and grenades for the most part. A good deal of their game revolves around C4, and mortar sliding to get out or trouble. Snake has excellent boxing, with very fast jabs and tilts. Play midrange, stay in the air. Snake has generally bad aerials. Bair and Uair being his only decent ones, with Nair and Dair being DIable. He'll try to recover high, keep pounding him down with Fairs, if you get the chance.

Counterpicks: Stages like Jungle Japes take away Snake's staple killer. Lylat and Yoshi's Island will also suffice.

Bans: Halberd, Smashville, or any stage with a low ceiling, for obvious reasons.

Additional Info & Matchup Tidbits: You can grab Snake out of cypher by a ledge. Don't pummel, and he'll be released for a potential KO. He can DI into C4 to save himself, but you can either FLUDD him away, or toss a fireball. You can also cape his Usmash.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
______________________

Victim #3: Olimar

Summaries; in Detail.

Click here for Brave Hippo's summary.
Click here for Kirin's summary.

Matchup Sub-section.

TL;DR version: Don't get grabbed, avoid the Usmash, and don't take pikmin damage. Nair is your staple move here, it destroys pikmin, and puts pressure on Olimar. Your air game is better than his, mainly because you have that speed and range. His recovery's fairly laughable, he's one of the easier gimps.

Counterpicks: Jungle Japes come to mind. His main killer is taken out by the high ceiling, and the water kills all but the blue pikmin.

Bans: Final Destination. Any place that gives him room to camp.

Additional Info & Matchup Tidbits: When recovering, they'll whistle for super-armor. Either cape or Nair their recovery. Keep an eye out for the tether as an offensive move. Be wary of purple pikmin for the early KO, and blue ones can kill early with a back throw.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
______________________

Victim #4: Ice Climbers

Summaries; in Detail.

Click here for LOTM's summary.
Click here for Ismael's summary.

Matchup Sub-section.

TL;DR version: Watch out for Bair and Uair spacing, Ice Climbers have deceiving range. The obvious chaingrabs can be avoided by Dair camping the entire match. Seperate and kill the CPU climber, taking on the solo climber if your best bet. Solo climber is by far the easiest character to gimp. Put pressure on them

Counterpicks: Lylat and Rainbow Cruise aren't very good for the climbers, surprisingly enough.

Bans: Final Destionation and Smashville. Any other neutral is fine.

Additional Info & Matchup Tidbits: When attempting to desync, that's your best chance at seprating the two. Just Bair the other climber offstage while keeping the player at bay. Fireballs go through their desynced Blizzard, to retreating FB's work well. If they don't damage the players' climber, it still only makes the CPU weaker, which isn't a bad this. To keep it concise, don't get grabbed. Play defensively, and always retreat your aerials. Don't get shieldgrabbed, but rather play a good deal of this match campy. Seperate them at all costs, and get them offstage, since their only reliable "GTFO" aerials are Nair and Bair.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
______________________

Victim #5: Diddy Kong.

Not a very hard matchup at all, he's no real threat if you're not on FD. Control bananas, play patiently. Go Rainbow Cruise if you want to be agressive, or Battlefield and abuse platform control. Diddy can't kill as early as he'd like to, so keep finishers fresh. His recovery's gimpable, so go ahead and be as reckless as possible. You really shouldn't lose if it's not on FD.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Victim #6: Lucario

**** him up.

Victim #7: Marth

Page 25 - Page 33.

Victim #8: Mr. Game and Watch

The most we can do is space bair's, maybe a few Uair's to try and get some combos and using our awesome jab up close and some Utilts. Bait his aerials and punish the landing lag with a stutter step Fsmash to KO.

Game and Watches moves of choice are gonna be Bair, Nair, Dair, Dtilt, Up-B, Fsmash, Dsmash, Upsmash, and the Bucket, for braking, of course. Use fireballs sparringly. Poke at his shield with Dair, and space witb bair. One of the best choices for an approach in this matchup is an aerial fireball, followed by a fastfalled Nair to Jab combo. It puts enormous pressure on his shield, and you can grab before he might. He's near ungimpable, so hope he recovers from below, and capestall for a lucky edgehog. Spend as little time as possible on the ground. If you can, timeout the match, it's just that hard. Up-B OoS if he goes for a bair.

Victim #9: Donkey Kong

Page 37 - Page 43

50:50 if not 45:55 DK.

We've already gone over the obvious stuff like DK's weight, KO power, and gimpable recovery, so I'll just go ahead into specifics.

Cape ***** DK close to worst in the game onstage. Reason being that cape is safe on shield meaning capejump to bait shieldgrabs, shield pokes, DK has no disjointed hitboxes so it outprioritizes his everything, AND he has alot of dedicated attacks. Use it whenever you feel vulnerable or you predict an attack. It'll work wonders. Don't be afraid to pivot backwards while grounded.

Fireballs are your best friend for approaching (if you plan to approach) so keep them handy. Don't be afraid to lob them offstage before you come in for a cape gimp if you're trying to force an upB out of him. Speaking of which, DK's recovery is easily gimped by cape, BUT DK can just as easily recover high to protect himself. If you can manage it, Fair meteor works well on DK because of his short vertical recovery. DK also has an insane momentum cancel with upB that works as well as G&W's, but leaves him in a freefall afterwards. Punish this at any cost. Cape will certainly do the trick. DK's upB is ridiculously amazing on the ledge. The invincibility frames on startup and the initial knockback give it the ability to easily beat our upB and allows him to auto-regrab the ledge. For this reason, I wouldn't recommend capeglide vs DK since he could easily grab the ledge before you get to return. Try your best to stay out of this situation; there aren't many options for you here.

Unless you're on a stage with a low ceiling, don't bother saving your Usmash. Like A2 already said, it is amazing in this matchup because of its priority and where it puts DK above your head. Just don't forget that your Utilt is also great for getting DK above you for combos. Grabbing is essential in this matchup as well, since DK's not safe to attack on shield. Stay unpredictable because DK's grab range >>> yours, so grabbing from the front is only safe if you're faster grabbing than he is.

If you're in KO range, remember than DK's safest KO move is Utilt (unstale). It's quick and kills at around 110% IIRC. Next is Uair, which makes capestalling above him ridiculously unsafe because of how high he jumps. This alone is why I think BF isn't as good as it normally is for Mario in this particular matchup. Dsmash usually follows the novice DK's spotdodge, but a seasoned one will often use the initial hit of Dsmash (while DK has his arms above his head) to kill. Generally around 110% is where you'll find this killing, and it's the most likely to be unstale since it's the least safe. DK's Fsmash can kill at stupid low percentages, so don't get hit by it; it could cost the entire match.

More to come...

Edit: DK can cargo spike at higher % if you don't mash out quick enough, but under 100%, you can easily escape it by holding up on the control stick when he grabs you. You'll break out every time. This requires no timing or anything. Once he's grabbed you, just hold up until you're out.

While platforms give him about as much of an advantage as they give us, I'd probably still go BF since we can keep pressure well here, and DASS (dash attack stage spike) works on its ledges. FD I personally wouldn't try because of how easily he could wall us with Bairs there. I can't think of a stage that gives us a huge advantage though.

Overall, I'm thinking 50:50 or slight advantage DK because he completely outranges Mario, kills much faster, and can wall very well with his Bair to keep Mario from getting in constantly. Once he's got his momentum, it's hard to stop him. If the Mario is adept at comboing and gimping however, DK is in trouble because approaching DK isn't all that difficult even with Bair.

In the event that you live in an area that still hasn't realized how bad Luigis is and you're forced to play DK here, keep one half of the mansion destroyed at all costs and camp on that side. If DK has to approach you, the threat of his downB is gone until he's successfully gotten within your range. Don't forget to jab lock either.

Victim #10: Falco

It's a hard matchup...I think in his favor slightly, but winnable as long as you aren't on Japes.

Crouch and Cape lasers appropriately. Make sure you do not crouch for extended periods of time otherwise Mario will do the stupid animation that makes him able to be hit by lasers. <_<

Fireballs are still useful, if only for manipulating him at a distance. He will usually try to reflect them back.

His CG is devastating...however you can get him back with U-tilt and U-air juggles if you can read him right on one D-throw. When it comes to kill moves, Mario's kill moves are slightly better, but this is counterbalanced by the fact that Falco is going to harass you with laser camping the entire time, and if you jump into a laser and get unlucky, it might just combo into a boost Up-smash.

Yoshis is a pretty good stage against him IMO. The stage is the right size for controlling space against his recovery, and the depression in the middle is VERY helpful for ducking under his lasers.

Falco's easy if you know what to expect. Be on the offensive for that matchup, and pressure them. Throw, as often as possible. Mario has the better air game, so avoid his tilts. He'll be looking to edgeguard with bair, just SJP and that stops his guarding of the edge. FLUDD *****, so if you have some spare time, always charge it.

Victim #11: Wario

Page 54

Victim #12: ROB

Page 57 - Page 60

Victim #13: Zero Suit Samus.

Page 60 - Page 65

Victim #14: Pokemon Trainer.

Page 65 - Page 69

Victim #15: Kirby.

Page 69 - Page 72

Victim #16: Pit.

Page 74 - Page 77

Victim #17: Samus.

Page 80 - Page 82

Victim #18: Pikachu.

IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Victim #19: Bowser

Page 83 - Page 86

Victim #20: Luigi.

Page 88 - Page 93

Victim #21: Sonic

Page 93 - Page 97

Victim #22: Toon Link

Page 97 - Page 98

Victim #23: Jigglypuff

Page 100 - Page 102

Victim #24: King Dedede

Page 102 - Page 104

Victim #25: Peach

Page 104 - Page 113

Victim #26: Lucas

Page 112 - Page 122

Victim #27: Ness

Page 122 - Page 123

Victim #28: Pikachu (again)

Page 124 - Page 126

Victim #29: Link

Page 127 - Page 129

Victim #30: Ike

Page 129 - Page 133

Victim #31: Zelda

Page 133 - Page 141

Victim #32: Wolf

Page 141 - Page 146

Victim #33: Fox

Page 146 - Page 151

Victim # 34: Yoshi

Page 152 - Page 155

Victim #35: Sheik

Page 155 - Page 157

Victims #36 & 37 Captain Falcon and Ganondorf

Page 157 - Page 162​

 

[SkylerOcon]

Cool. This is getting a sticky, but try to keep up with this!

EDIT:

Alright, so MK... he will of course be a pretty tough fight. He's got the tornado, he's got the shuttle loop, and he's got the down air. Really... I think he's the only character in the game who's edgeguarding and gimp potential surpasses Mario's.

Of course, this isn't to say that the match-up is completely impossible -- quite the opposite infact.

Mario should abuse his fireballs in this match-up. This will force MK to approach -- usually using either the fair or tornado. If they use the 'nado, just TRY to dodge it and punish it if the MK misses. IF it's the forward air, either try to keep him away with the FLUDD or wait for the attack to finish and up air into MK.

Try to predict the shuttle loop and cape it, though most MKs I've faced fear the cape so they glide to the other side of the state and then shuttle loop before I can get to the other side. If they do give you the chance and they do try to recover near you, try to either FLUDD or cape it. DO NOT put yourself at risk for a stage spike though. That can mean a free stock for MK.

Mario can alsmo be gimped fairly easily by the down air so try and be unpredictable with your recovery.

Overall... I'd put this match-up at 65/35. Not the easiest match-up, but definitely not the hardest.

 

[:mad:]

You got it, I can keep up with it. I'm the most active member on SWF.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

You mean the most active Spammer.

 

[:mad:]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8681104&postcount=450 - GIF.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8641148&postcount=11437 - Lives up to Elitist title.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'll link this to the Match-Up Index, and I'll also link the character discussions onto each character and follow through them.

As for the Metaknight match-up, these are my thoughts:

Metaknight - 35:65

Summary

While Chaingrab tries to make Mario lose all his options, Metaknight forces Mario to use all that he has. Metaknight is Mario's second hardest match-up and for good reason. Metaknight out-speeds and out-ranges Mario in nearly all categories except for aerial speed. His sword does not clash with any attack besides his glide attack, meaning that even if Mario's attacks come out at the same time, Metaknight will win simply due to his range. He is also the best edgeguarder in the game and can do reliable gimping with his D-air. With five multijumps, gliding and three special moves that helps his recovery, he is quite difficult to gimp. His kill moves are D-Smash, F-Smash, and N-air. D-Smash is quite spammable and very risky to punish. F-Smash has some lag in the beginning but is a good mindgame tool when being charged, and N-air will more than likely be used to kill when Mario is off-stage.

Mario however, has his tools to fight back. Metaknight has no way of stopping Mario's fireballs except for shielding, which gives you breathing room and allows Mario to stop his momentum. D-Smash is an excellent punisher for Metaknight's D-Smash since it comes out just as fast. A reverse U-Smash does just as well if Mario's back is behind Metaknight's. Mario can somewhat combo Metaknight, but a lot of it will deal with mindgames and baiting. Most of all however, Mario is one of the few characters that can gimp Metaknight. Shuttle Loop is highly exploitable to FIHL, which clashes with Metaknight's glide attack, which would put him in a helpless state to allow Mario to go for the kill or gimp him with the cape.

A few other tidbits are Metaknight's tornado can be beaten with the last hit of D-air, cape, or Up-B OOS. Metaknight is quite light so U-Smash is a good kill move here, and so is F-Smash. A lot of this match is Mario fully utilizing his defensive abilities, taking advantage of any mistakes, and knowing what one can do in any given situation.

Despite all this, this is quite winnable match-up for Mario, as long as the player keeps a cool head.

 

[:mad:]

Thanks, Hero. This is sort of like an archive.
Let's just get all of our thoughts on Meta Knight.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There are no real tricks to beating Metaknight with Mario as far as I'm concerned. In order to beat him, you just have to know everything about Mario and abuse it correctly. And you have to be really good at doing that.

Well, one thing. You definitely don't want to approach him. Force the approach with fireballs, but don't do anything stupid or you'll get Nadoed. Punish Nado with either a fireball at the top, or an Up-B out of shield (I think F-smash can beat it, but seems too difficult).

You'll want to get in your juggle combos at low percents. U-tilt is more reliable than D-throw especially against Metaknight.

His recovery can be Caped, but only if you predict him.

 

[Matador]

Good stuffs with mod Skyler. Congrats.

MK's Tornado can be beaten by Usmash, but ONLY from the bottom. If you try it from the middle, you'll be sucked in.

Edit: Yeah A2, Fsmash can beat nado, but the timing is lol.

Whenever I play this match, I play to keep up. MK is faster than Mario, but not even marginally so. We kill better (....sorta), and do more damage on each singular attack. Fireball to approach or retreat if the situation requires it, expect his Dsmash whenever you're high % and don't try to punish it unless you PS it. Capitalize on his mistakes, and stay unpredictable.

To prevent being Shuttleloop gimped at low% due to Mario's recovery, DO NOT FREEFALL TOWARD MK. If you are in position to be shuttlelooped at any time, you must move. Nearly every possible trajectory that this attack can hit you will kill you even at low %. Baiting this attack is stupid unless the reward outweighs the risk (he's high % and your Usmash is fresh).

When you get in close, jab is your best friend. Ftilt and Utilt also work well as long as you keep your followups safe. I personally don't Dthrow vs MK whenever I land the grab. I usually Fthrow or Bthrow for the %, since MK has fast enough aerials to actually stop you from following up the Dthrow on occasion. SHNair (OOS as well) is an excellent gfto attack whenever you find MK is putting on the pressure.

Offstage is where you really need to be careful. Capestalling isn't safe at all. Fair meteor is very risky. Fireballs are pretty easily eluded. Nearly every move he has can beat our upB if it isn't on those first few frames; mainly Dair. If your Fludd is charged, save your DJ and Fludd him back onstage when he comes after you. This is safe and has low enough ending lag for you to upB back to the ledge safely as soon as you finish spraying. MK is light, so the water pushes him considerably far. This prevents approach by glide too and is generally unpunishable as long as you don't wait too long to do it or waste your DJ beforehand. If your Fludd isn't charged...don't bother.

As for gimping...I don't try it. Unless it's an easy drillrush gimp, it's too risky. I'd rather not waste my Fludd lest I'd need it, and our aerials/cape range are a little on the short side in comparison to his arsenal. Fair is also next to useless except if you plan to catch the MK offguard.

MK's main killers are Shuttleloop, Dsmash, Fsmash and Nair. Fsmash and Shuttleloop are situational (Shuttleloop not so much at high %) so you pretty much have to be prepared for them and react when you see/expect them. Dsmash is most powerful on the last hit, and is usually stale. The first hit is easy to DI and shouldn't kill you unless you're high % or near the edge. Nair is a powerful offstage killer, but lacks range. It's an excellent combo breaker, so watch out for it if you're high% and he's low. Our main killers are Fsmash and Usmash. MK's DI is insane. Keep your Usmash fresh if you can because landing Fsmash on a good MK is hell. You should be killing around 120-125% with Usmash, and about 110% from Fsmash unless on the edge.

TL;DR

Erm...I'm thinking 60:40 or 65:35 at worst. It's really not THAT bad. Campy MKs are...wow.

Look out for Dsmash and Shuttleloop of course. Also, his insane grabrange -> Dthrow can lead to some bad followups. DI AWAY and tech where ever you think MK WONT get you to be safe. Shuttleloop can gimp at any given time if you give him the opportunity. Dsmash is a nasty punisher but it's also his "safety" move. He can get predictable with it, so watch out for this and be ready to capitalize on a predicted one.

Most valuable asset is probably fireball and Fludd. Most characters can't approach OR gain distance on MK when they need it. We have the tools to do that and must abuse it.

Read above for my "How to Play" section.

 

[Judge Judy]

My main strategies when playing against MK are spacing (with FLUDD mostly) and lots of OOS moves. Also, oddly enough, MK's weakest point seems to be his underside, despite his **** Dair.

 

[fromundaman]

Well, most of this seems to have been covered, but here's one thing you guys seem to be leaving out:
FLUDD is probably the best option against tornado (if fully charged), as it sends him very high up (I don't know why, it just does), meaning not only does it not hit, but he goes into a fairly long freefall which allows for a wide range of punishment.

 

[Judge Judy]

Does anyone know how well Mario's Usmash fares against the tornado? I haven't tried it yet.

 

[:mad:]

Can't really say, but I'm fairly sure Usmash wins from below.
Never actually hit from an angle.

 

[Matador]

It beats it but only from the bottom. Anywhere else is a no.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Tornado gets stopped by...

Dair at the hands(Stupid hard)
Up-B
Usmash from below
any move from the tippy top
and...

switching to Snake
----

Metaknight is still ******** in my opinion...you have to spend the entire match baiting and waiting

 

[BoTastic!]

wow Matador. Nice wall of text. Helped me against MK lol. I always use Kirby and G&W against him.

 

[Judge Judy]

Metaknight is still ******** in my opinion...you have to spend the entire match baiting and waiting

Yah, but at least it's not as bad as a hit-and-runoutthetimer Wario.

 

[BoTastic!]

Yah, but at least it's not as bad as a hit-and-runoutthetimer Wario.

Are you kidding me? Wario is 10x easier than MK.

 

[Famous]

Tornado gets stopped by...

Dair at the hands(Stupid hard)
Up-B
Usmash from below
any move from the tippy top
and...

switching to Snake
----

Metaknight is still ******** in my opinion...you have to spend the entire match baiting and waiting

Grounded Tornaods get stopped by
Fsmash
Jab
Fireball


In the Air
Fair(so sexy)
Nair


EDIT] I'll find my post regarding this matchup...Don't feel like retyping
More useful tidbits
If your overhead while MK does shuttleloop, it can be stopped with Dair or Nair. Dair sometimes kill MK on stages with low ceilings...

 

[Matador]

EDIT] I'll find my post regarding this matchup...Don't feel like retyping
More useful tidbits
If your overhead while MK does shuttleloop, it can be stopped with Dair or Nair. Dair sometimes kill MK on stages with low ceilings...

I've meteor'd some MKs out of their shuttleloop, but they traded hits. Nair and Dair can beat it or do they trade too?

 

[Famous]

It depends...Nair has the possibility to stop it completely while it also can trade hits. Dair on the other hand is weird...It trade hits yet it somehow has the potential to kill...I guess it depends on what time you start it up.

 

[Matador]

I only challenge it if I have no other choice. If they're directly below me and I think they're trying to bait my airdodge, I throw out a Nair and DI away from them. At least that way I won't be completely vulnerable as I'm coming down.

Offstage though, I don't even ledgestall with my cape when I think he's gonna shuttleloop. He can kill so easily with it, it's not even worth the risk half the time.

 

[Famous]

Lol...I get stage spiked half the time so I only attempt it if I'm up a stock.

 

[fromundaman]

Awww... everyone ignores my post about FLUDD and the tornado... ah well...


Also, SL is kind of weird, but it's priority and what it trades moves depends on the angle you come from. If you come from behind (which includes above and slightly behind. Just don't touch the sword basically), you have priority over it every time, whereas if the sword touches you, you usually trade hits. This rule seems to apply to almost all characters.

 

[Matador]

Awww... everyone ignores my post about FLUDD and the tornado... ah well...


Also, SL is kind of weird, but it's priority and what it trades moves depends on the angle you come from. If you come from behind (which includes above and slightly behind. Just don't touch the sword basically), you have priority over it every time, whereas if the sword touches you, you usually trade hits. This rule seems to apply to almost all characters.

It wasn't ignored, you actually made a good point. I just figured you weren't waiting for someone to tell you that.

Yeah, I've found this is true as well. Unless, of course, it's on his hax startup frames -_-

 

[fromundaman]

Sorry, the posts following mine mentioning how to stop tornado omitted FLUDD, so I figured I'd just been ignored. My bad.

And yeah, those startup frames suck...


EDIT: Who wins if you and him both do UpB at about the same time?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario.

Mario's Up-B starts frame 3. Metaknight's Up-B starts frame 5.

Not that this situation will ever happen. =/

You can however Up-B him after you see him start Shuttle Loop.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario's Up-B starts frame 3. Metaknight's Up-B starts frame 5.

I thought MK's SL came out in 8 frames.

 

[Matador]

lol @ Mario's upB being so epic. Marth's comes out when?

 

[:mad:]

Some amazing discussion on the first page.
I was considering putting the matchup at 80:20 Mario for a day or so just so we can see what the Meta Knights would say.

I'll quote some of the great posts and edit them in the OP now.

 

[hippiedude92]

A pivot grab works against a grounded nado. Been tested sirs..,,

 

[:mad:]

I thought that was common knowledge...
I know a good deal about that, since it's one of Ness's best assets against Meat Knight.

 

[Judge Judy]

lol @ Mario's upB being so epic. Marth's comes out when?

To my knowledge, Marth's Up B comes out in 5 frames.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Only tactic's I can share on MK is Jab & Fireball. Try to get % in.

 

[:mad:]

I'm at least grateful Meta Knight doesn't have a real jab.
Jab canceled dsmash would be a nightmare... at least you can DI out to prevent that.

Yeah, camp in this match.

 

[Matador]

You don't HAVE to camp, you just can't make yourself vulnerable all the time. That means no going for the ledge to ledgehog if he's remotely close, no airdodging during your recovery (unless you predict a shuttleloop), no trying to punish his spotdodge -> Dsmash. Just be AWARE of what exactly threatens you, and you can deal with him. Mario is more than capable of going head to head with MK.

The only reason I'm agreeing with 65:35 is because the matchup isn't an easy one by any means.

Edit @ Judge: lmao, do we really have the fastest upB with invincibility frames? That's amazing XD

 

[:mad:]

If MK didn't have that glide, he wouldn't be all that ungimpable. Since we're all already aware that the main attacks are gonna be fair, dsmash, shuttle loop, and the tornado, we only really need to find the best way to beat these moves. Nair and dair, too.

In timed matches, I've won more games against Meta Knights because of some slight stalling, as in hanging out on a ledge for awhile and just kicking it. The other player occasionally panics and makes some mistakes, which is the main strategy that worked for me.

 

[Matador]

I don't feel safe on the ledge vs MK. He has about 4 VERY fast attacks that can stagespike you from that position, except for maybe on Yoshis. That's my favorite stage vs MK. There and BF.

 

[:mad:]

If he goes offstage to get you off the ledge, drop, DJ, then bair. I'm serious. I've never been a fan of stalling, but this seems like the only way I can beat a Meta Knight that's just better than I am.

As far as I know, if you dodge a shuttle loop, and he's coming down to glide attack, utilt beats his glide, right?

 

[KirinBlaze]

I just camp MK. Utilt>Utilt>Dsmash from 0% for a good 30% combo then just SHFireball>Jab Combo/Grab/Dsmash. I Uthrow a lot in this match up too, it makes it easier to follow up with a Uair if they Dair or air dodge immediately after the throw. Offstage? Lol. I stay away from there, I usually fludd the glide if I see they're attack happy out of it and punish with a Usmash. I think Usmash and Glide Attack clash, I remember it happening once or twice. Jab or Ftilt if MK gets too close to me, Utilt>Grab>Bthrow to reset spacing at lower %'s. I just play extremely gay in this match up. lol