The Burning Digimon Dinosaur - Agumon for Smash - Digimon Survive 2020

HenryWong122

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Agumon should Digivolve/Evolve just like he does in Digimon Rumble Arena/Digimon Tamers: Battle Evolution. A bar that fills up while he deals or takes damage and once its full, you hit the R1 button to digivolve/evolve.
 

Megadoomer

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Both were huge in the mid to late 90's, to the point where Pokemon vs. Digimon was like Mario vs. Sonic. Digimon and Pokemon were seemingly the only games about catching and training monsters that actually stood the test of time. By comparison, you don't see people talking much about Monster Rancher, Robopon, or Dragon Warrior Monsters any more. (though Digimon's likely better known for its anime than its games) Even compared to something like Yokai Watch, Digimon has shown a lot more staying power.
 
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fogbadge

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Both were huge in the mid to late 90's, to the point where Pokemon vs. Digimon was like Mario vs. Sonic. Digimon and Pokemon were seemingly the only games about catching and training monsters that actually stood the test of time. By comparison, you don't see people talking much about Monster Rancher, Robopon, or Dragon Warrior Monsters any more. (though Digimon's likely better known for its anime than its games) Even compared to something like Yokai Watch, Digimon has shown a lot more staying power.
i was there for all that, i lived it. they arent rivals theyre too different
 

YsDisciple

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i was there for all that, i lived it. they arent rivals theyre too different
What I meant was since back in the day Pokémon and Digimon were pretty much rival franchises; the "mascots" from each franchise were pretty much Pikachu (for Pokémon) and Agumon (for Digimon). Having Agumon would bring back those good ol' days. Just my humble opinion.
 

fogbadge

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What I meant was since back in the day Pokémon and Digimon were pretty much rival franchises; the "mascots" from each franchise were pretty much Pikachu (for Pokémon) and Agumon (for Digimon). Having Agumon would bring back those good ol' days. Just my humble opinion.
most of rivalry came from the fans
 

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Oh, they were treated as rivals for a bit. It pretty much ended by Tamers, and was losing focus due to Adventure 02 focusing far less on Agumon.

Made sense too. Agumon wasn't pushed in the same way Pikachu was and all.
 

Beth Uriel

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by the fans
Which doesn't change anything whatsoever. That still makes them rivals where it actually counts. They're the only ones even getting anything out of it as is when it comes to any real reward. Nintendo sure isn't. All they care is that it sells. And due to the rivalry they had back then, it'll simply sell better overall than otherwise.

Also, not really just by the fans. It was quite well known outside of purely fan stuff. Made sense too, as they were dueling shows for quite a while. Adventure 1 lasted a very long time overall since it wasn't a worldwide premiere, but split up in its release. That's what easily kept it going. Maybe about... 2-3 years they were overall rivals? Well, anime rivals, not game rivals since the games never really dueled each other at all as they weren't remotely similar. Stuff like Monster Rancher, those games were somewhat rivals to Pokemon's games(same with Dragon Quest Monsters), but the mascots never actually rivaled each other cause nobody was basically on Pikachu's level but Agumon at best. It helps that Pokemon and Digimon alone had similar themes like Evolution in general. And due to the anime itself, the idea of "only one line", which further make them similar. The other mentioned series were... just way too different to legitimately rival it. But Pokemon VS Digimon have been rival series even longer than just the mascots rivaling each other. They were the biggest out there as is. Once the anime started to die down around Frontier's time, that's when the rivalry honestly stopped in general. One just couldn't keep up, while the other kept going strong. They even did the same thing, having expies of their mascot. Agumon had multiple variants similar to him, while Pikachu had a bunch of rodent-like electric types. And they didn't stop for a long time(in fact, pretty sure only Pokemon stopped doing it as much. Digimon kept going with every core protagonist Digimon partner).
 

fogbadge

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Which doesn't change anything whatsoever. That still makes them rivals where it actually counts. They're the only ones even getting anything out of it as is when it comes to any real reward. Nintendo sure isn't. All they care is that it sells. And due to the rivalry they had back then, it'll simply sell better overall than otherwise.

Also, not really just by the fans. It was quite well known outside of purely fan stuff. Made sense too, as they were dueling shows for quite a while. Adventure 1 lasted a very long time overall since it wasn't a worldwide premiere, but split up in its release. That's what easily kept it going. Maybe about... 2-3 years they were overall rivals? Well, anime rivals, not game rivals since the games never really dueled each other at all as they weren't remotely similar. Stuff like Monster Rancher, those games were somewhat rivals to Pokemon's games(same with Dragon Quest Monsters), but the mascots never actually rivaled each other cause nobody was basically on Pikachu's level but Agumon at best. It helps that Pokemon and Digimon alone had similar themes like Evolution in general. And due to the anime itself, the idea of "only one line", which further make them similar. The other mentioned series were... just way too different to legitimately rival it. But Pokemon VS Digimon have been rival series even longer than just the mascots rivaling each other. They were the biggest out there as is. Once the anime started to die down around Frontier's time, that's when the rivalry honestly stopped in general. One just couldn't keep up, while the other kept going strong. They even did the same thing, having expies of their mascot. Agumon had multiple variants similar to him, while Pikachu had a bunch of rodent-like electric types. And they didn't stop for a long time(in fact, pretty sure only Pokemon stopped doing it as much. Digimon kept going with every core protagonist Digimon partner).
theres similarities are a far and few between, the only one line thing isnt actually a core part of digimon as most digimon have branching paths, in fact the things they do have in common are both done very differently
 

HenryWong122

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Their similarities are far and few between, the only one line thing isn't actually a core part of digimon as most digimon have branching paths, in fact the things they do have in common are both done very differently
You think people care about that?
 

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theres similarities are a far and few between, the only one line thing isnt actually a core part of digimon as most digimon have branching paths, in fact the things they do have in common are both done very differently
The similarities are actually very big.

They both followed the same type of design philosophy by reusing the core type of Digimon to remake the same one in similar ways. In addition to that, the Pika clones were consistently shown off in the anime and/or had a mascot status. It's hardly a coincidence. The coincidence is that it's akin to to Ash getting a Starter every region. I guess you could compare Veemon to Raichu instead to a degree. Since Baby Digimon do exist. But Adventure 1 and 2 are kind of weird in the same say Kanto and Johto are, fully connected yet still attempts to be unique and different. All of the core protagonist Digimon partners were intentionally reptilian and literally only Veemon stands out slightly by not being outright related to Fire, but more Wind. And they still have similar levels too. Even Frontier alone uses a similar system. Fusion slightly changes it up, mostly cause the Greymon and Agumon variants are separated. Shoutmon is pretty clear the normal Agumon expy, but Greymon, MetalGreymon, and ZekeGreymon are blatantly ones for, well, the first two are obvious, and the last one is a WarGreymon expy. Shoutmon DX is more of the Omnimon of the group. Technically speaking now you have Omnimon Merciful Mode to a degree with the final Fusion, X7 Superior Mode, but it was more regular X7 that was effectively Imperialdramon Paladin Mode at that point power-wise. Something beyond that didn't realllllly exist yet. Veemon's line is also a reptilian similarity to the normal Agumon line. From a larger variant of the Dinosaur, to a more metallic variant, and finally a more dragon-like variant. Fighter Mode is pretty much meant to mirror Omnimon in terms of being an upgrade, as well as it required a DNA to some degree. Guilmon's entirely line resembles Agumon's except Gallantmon, but it still somewhat does(the armored draconic knight that came from overall strength of character). Frontier's kind of unique in that Flaremon is really the Agumon, despite Agunimon's name. Agunimon takes Greymon's role by being the first core evolution, and is Adult-Class. BurningGreymon is more metallic, just like MetalGreymon, and is Ultimate-Class(or Perfect-Class in Japan). Aldamon is pretty much what happens when you fuse both, though to be fair, WarGreymon does resembles the idea of far more metal and dragon combining by design alone. EmperorGreymon in a way resembles Omnimon, using the power of multiple forms to create one, but not just by your own forms alone. In terms of strength, Imperialdramon Paladin Mode is meant to match Susanomon. Then you have Data Squad, where the Agumon line is pretty much just a remake directly of the normal Agumon line. Though Burst Mode doesn't resemble anything in particular. That's completely new.

The key thing to also remember is that the general rodent remake in Pokemon is that they aren't just rodents, they're also Electric types and resemble a member of the family to some degree, or play a similar role in a way. Pikachu directly didn't get a remake, but Plusle & Minun literally were designed to resemble Pichu. Dedenne couldn't look more like Raichu if you tried. They tried to remake pieces of the family as is. Oftentimes the Pokemon even having issues with their abilities(Pachirisu can't control its electricity in the anime, an issue Pichu has as a core gimmick alone. Since Ash doesn't catch another electric rodent, most of the time that was given to another member of his friend group. Pichu is kind of the only one that doesn't fit it(but note what I said about Kanto and Johto being weird. They were at one point part of the same game in itself, not developed separately. So the anime can't do a lot to try and be similar to the games. Pichu was oddly promoted mainly through movies, not through the regular anime). Emolga is yet another one... who heavily resembles Pachirisu, but a flying variant. People were sure it was an evolution too. Togedamaru is the next electrical rodent from Gen VII, decently resembling classic Pikachu's more "fat" design. And then Morpeko for Gen VII, mostly resembling Raichu yet again.

That's a very consistent similarity. Digimon mostly didn't care that much after Xros Wars(including The Hunters Who Leapt Through Time with Gumdramon). Though worth noting the Gumdramon line kind of ends at a MetalGreymon expy via Superior Mode. Superior Mode Snatcher isn't too off from WarGreymon having a lot more metal to it and all, but that's a stretch. ...Literally and figuratively speaking. Though slightly Applimon does kind of resemble the idea, but despite a reptilian partner(Gatchmon), it doesn't actually attempt to mirror the normal Agumon line even slightly. Also, Mega Pokemon are prettttttty clearly the same idea as Burst Mode. Them being called Mega like the Digimon level is the actual coincidence.

Doesn't change they're anime rivals at all. Following pretty much a core partner formula in itself. It isn't till Diamond/Pearl and Frontier that they really really differ from each other.

Nonetheless, there's a lot of similarities in how they handle their expies for future series. Pokemon just doesn't have actual evolutions for the various electrical rodents, however. So it's pretty hard to make a decent rivalry when they went into different directions with the main monster partner's expy style. But they are still done in a similar yet unique path. Pokemon loves to remake certain archtypes. The starters alone are the same point every time, you have the electric rodents, the pseudo-legendaries, regular legendaries(and mythicals), as well as the common monster rodents starting with Rattata. Digimon mostly does this too, but only for the anime. There's always the wolf-like partner combo to build off of the core protagonist. Sometimes it's not a literal wolf Digimon(as shown in Xros Wars, where the Greymon user has a difficult to work with personality but still has a huge heart in the end). You can even compare this to Ash's core rival in each series. They can often be annoying, but ultimately are a good person. It takes longer for some to get there. Paul is perhaps the first time they were an outright jerk, not just a bit of a jerk at times(Gary, mainly). Generally Ash's core rival can be very abrasive as well. The issue is the anime goes all over the place in some ways, besides having the female teammate, and at least one male one(and sometimes the random kid along), not following as strict of a formula in some way. Digimon tries to be slightly more consistent. Data Squad is perhaps the only one where the wolf partnered-character isn't completely abrasive at first either. Gaomon still resembles the Gabumon line(though MachGaogamon and MirageGaogamon don't heavily resemble WereGarurumon and MetalGarurumon that well. Somewhat on Mach due to being more physical than anything. MirageGaogamon only resembles WarGreymon at best. But it still fits the theme, being a very metallic wolf, and very very powerful. Do note what I said about Burst Mode being its own thing. In fact, ZeedGarurumon, which one could argue is kind of a Burst Mode for MetalGarurumon, actually is also an evolution of MachGaogamon, so. It's kind of awkward. Though in a sense the Burst Modes more resemble Omnimon's power level, but not the role. It's kind of close to Fighter Mode, though far more temporary in how long they can last).

The one thing to remember is the Pokemon anime was not just built on "collecting badges". They actually had a good vs evil dynamic as vastly important, including saving the world as somewhat of a concept from Team Rocket forcing them to(and far bigger deals came up with later teams, as they weren't simply thieves, but their actions heavily affected the world. Ruby/Sapphire kind of borked the idea and had it too short to overall feel as world-threatening as they can be, though). Ash being a "Hero" as is is a part of his character. Hell, it's part of Red's character, his origins too. That's his core story, that he also saved the world from Team Rocket, being a Hero to Kanto in general. The anime doesn't always show the Hero storyline of each game too well, but it's there. So there's still a pretty clear dynamic of good VS evil in both of them. If not a core part of each one. Except Orange Island Adventures and Battle Frontier, who are more spin-offs than regular seasons. And the latter still had Team Rocket causing massive trouble.

The biggest thing that's hard different is how the villain system is treated. Almost every core villain except sometimes the starter one tend to actually be evil and usually destroyed in Digimon(to be revived later). But that's due to good vs evil being the main story, with evolving via friendship/other methods being the secondary part. Pokemon's just the reverse, where showing off Pokemon is a lot more important to its story than saving the world from evil.

None of this is that similar when you have other series like Monster Rancher, which only slightly resembles pieces of Pokemon. It also never stayed in the spotlight to be a real rival either way to the fans or otherwise. Dragon Quest Monsters also didn't have an anime to help it, but it also was too different as is. At best it introduced the idea of breeding, which Pokemon use a similar system, and well, a very clear core partner Monster(Slime was basically Pikachu's equivalent. But they didn't change partners or have a real choice like Pokemon and Digimon did, games too). Obviously Digimon's games weren't too similar to Pokemon's, other than switching it up who your starting Monsters were, and keeping a fairly consistent level set/rules generally. With how evolution works and all.

Frankly, people wanting them back together to recreate the rivalry is fine. I'm not sure why this is remotely a problem and frankly it's honestly silly to dismiss a valid reason at this point. Digimon was the only series to even come close to rivaling Pokemon any way. I also forgot the massive amount of palette swaps, and done in ta similar way too. They weren't unique Monsters for a while. Digimon took swaps and made them characters later on(SnowAgumon was just an Agumon found in a colder region, for instance), and Pokemon used the anime to show it off where it wasn't simply just a shiny colorings, but actual regional variants. Eventually they had unique changes like the Alolan variants, not unlike stuff like DarkTyrannomon, where it wasn't just "slap a different color on". Digimon made them unique a lot faster is all.

I'm honestly surprised at how similar the Digimon and Pokemon anime are. Though comparing each season doesn't always work in general. The number of protagonists are practically different, except for Black/White and Data Squad. The core male, who is hot-blooded. The more cool-headed and intelligent one who somewhat makes for a rival. The girl who acts somewhat adult though can sometimes be childish. And the kid tagalong who is far younger overall.
 
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fogbadge

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oh i dont care enough, if you lot want to set pokemon and digimon against each other thats your business
 

Beth Uriel

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I mean, you continued the conversation. You should've told us immediately you disagree and not give us reasons to point out our different views. We do know when to stop too. But we don't know when you're uninterested. It sounds like you didn't care from the start(but I doubt this). So it was rather unfair to lead us on into pointing out multiple things.

Also, "by the fans" is not a rebuttal that's reasonable. That's literally dismissing all of our points. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree(as are others), but you did lead us into a longer conversation. It's safe to say you did care, but didn't feel like continuing after a while(which is fine anyway. I'm sure it's hard to reply to what I said. And if you don't agree, that's okay too).

Please don't lead us on like that and please actually read and reply to our points without hard dismissing them. It'd be a lot better as a conversation for us all.
 
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fogbadge

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I mean, you continued the conversation. You should've told us immediately you disagree and not give us reasons to point out our different views. We do know when to stop too. But we don't know when you're uninterested. It sounds like you didn't care from the start(but I doubt this). So it was rather unfair to lead us on into pointing out multiple things.

Also, "by the fans" is not a rebuttal that's reasonable. That's literally dismissing all of our points. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree(as are others), but you did lead us into a longer conversation. It's safe to say you did care, but didn't feel like continuing after a while(which is fine anyway. I'm sure it's hard to reply to what I said. And if you don't agree, that's okay too).

Please don't lead us on like that and please actually read and reply to our points without hard dismissing them. It'd be a lot better as a conversation for us all.
well the thing is i have very negative view of rivalries as a whole so i was beginning to think that was just cloud anything i had to say and i didnt really want to get into a long winded debate about it

i am sorry that i came across as rude
 

Beth Uriel

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well the thing is i have very negative view of rivalries as a whole so i was beginning to think that was just cloud anything i had to say and i didnt really want to get into a long winded debate about it

i am sorry that i came across as rude
No worries. I get it. Apology accepted. Honest error. :)

But yeah, if you're not interested in the idea, you can also not reply to it or explain why you don't like the idea. I think issue is you made it sound like it's something that cannot exist nor ever did, not that you disliked it. It came off differently from your core point.
 

fogbadge

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No worries. I get it. Apology accepted. Honest error. :)

But yeah, if you're not interested in the idea, you can also not reply to it or explain why you don't like the idea. I think issue is you made it sound like it's something that cannot exist nor ever did, not that you disliked it. It came off differently from your core point.
yeah i see where i went wrong
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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At this point, I think that Agumon's chances depend entirely on if we even get a Bamco character in FP2. If not, it's clearly not in their priorities for this time, and we'd remain in the exact same position as last time. If so, it'll become easier to support him after this game if it's anyone that's not him.
 

HenryWong122

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At this point, I think that Agumon's chances depend entirely on if we even get a Bamco character in FP2. If not, it's clearly not in their priorities for this time, and we'd remain in the exact same position as last time. If so, it'll become easier to support him after this game if it's anyone that's not him.
Well we won't know that until they start.
 

RileyXY1

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At this point, I think that Agumon's chances depend entirely on if we even get a Bamco character in FP2. If not, it's clearly not in their priorities for this time, and we'd remain in the exact same position as last time. If so, it'll become easier to support him after this game if it's anyone that's not him.
That's my thought process right now.
 

RileyXY1

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Good news for you guys:

Heihachi Mishima is deconfirmed, as they just announced that they are bringing back his Mii Fighter costume from Smash 4.
 

RileyXY1

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isnt lloyd the subject of extreme nostalgia in a similar manner to geno?
Yeah, but both of them were Mii Fighter costumes in Smash 4, and as shown with Heihachi, they can easily bring them back. It would be good for Agumon's chances, or any other NB rep in general, if both Heihachi and Lloyd were deconfirmed.
 

fogbadge

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Yeah, but both of them were Mii Fighter costumes in Smash 4, and as shown with Heihachi, they can easily bring them back. It would be good for Agumon's chances, or any other NB rep in general, if both Heihachi and Lloyd were deconfirmed.
i wouldnt be surprised if we got all the old dlc costumes by the end
 

RileyXY1

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i wouldnt be surprised if we got all the old dlc costumes by the end
Yeah. I think that it is now incredibly risky to support a character who had a Mii Fighter costume in Smash 4. Also, we still have no word about Survive's release date.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Yeah. I think that it is now incredibly risky to support a character who had a Mii Fighter costume in Smash 4. Also, we still have no word about Survive's release date.
On the upside, at least a certain user would stop getting lynched in the general (last I checked many months ago) if Agumon does get in here over them.
 
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ryuu seika

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isnt lloyd the subject of extreme nostalgia in a similar manner to geno?
Not exactly. Lloyd is the subject of extreme nostalgia in a similar manner to Cloud. His franchise is still ongoing and current and he's the biggest name among its protagonists (especially in the west and on Nintendo) but he was just the protagonist for one game as, like FF, the Tales series doesn't really have a recurring cast.

I still don't think it's right to consider Lloyd and Agumon rivals for the same spot, though. They may be one company now but Agumon is a Bandai character and Lloyd is from Namco. At the time of their creation, the companies were largely separate and, even now, Digimon tends to be treated as a Bandai property. There's space for both companies in this fighter pass, should Nintendo so choose, and no actual Bandai IPs with the same clout but Tamagotchi, AFAIK.

Also, what are you guys' thoughts on the new 2-dot Adventure series?
 
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Dukemon

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i dont think i could bring myself to watch a reboot
Ditto

Digimon Adventure Psi is unnecessary. It is horror to see they beginning to bring Taichi and Mat back over and over again. This is boring!
 

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...Bandai and Namco are pretty much the same company now. Agumon and Lloyd are clearly rivaled for a spot. And there's others like a Dark Souls character(whether you think Chosen Undead and Solaire are on the same level is another question, or even consider Artorias possible) and Nightmare(Soul Calibur). Those are the most active IP's right now, and only Tekken is pretty much out. The competition is fairly tight for a Bamco rep.

It's silly to pretend they're magically different companies. They aren't anymore. It's the same people licensed. Namco-Bandai is a full part of Smash's development team, not simply Namco. Digimon not appearing yet simply means they chose not to license it yet. It was at one point a rivalry to Pokemon, so it could be Nintendo and Sakurai feels it should have a big entrance into the series with a character instead of the usual fanfare. It's certainly not a case of "not related to the Arcade stuff", as we've had multiple Bamco IP's in Smash with Tekken, Tales of, etc.
 

TriggerX

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Id love to see Agumon in smash bros. Its a great opportunity to display that rivalry between Digimon and Pokemon in a more official sense.

Also I have been seeing more Tamogatchi type devices being marketed by various companies. Although it most likely has nothing to do with Smash, sometimes the universe is just funny like that.

Who knows, Digimon was huge and probably more well known globally than any other IP/property Bandai-Namco currently has under their belt besides Pac Man. As a result im sure at least the thought of a Digimon as dlc crossed their mind.
 
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