The Big MI Discussion Topic

[lain]

if i held a melee tournament, who would come.

 

[Shaeden]

lain, we'll have a pichu vs falco "i'll go to your tournament match" if you beat me, i'll go to your tournament, and if i win.. i'll go to your tournament but you have to accept a falco ditto 1 dollar mm

 

[lain]

LOL.

fine. i'll accept getting getting ***** by your pichu, and then subsequently giving you a dollar later on.

 

[SCOTU]

If i could make it, i'd go.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Everyone check this **** out: The# 7 $

 

[thaxceptional1]

wtf. were u cheesin it bowyer?

 

[RussellChamp]

wtf was that?!?

EDIT: Huzzah! 100th post!

 

[Vayseth]

Man, I'm glad MI is finally starting to hate each other. Going to tournaments might not be so boring. Too bad I quit this game...

 

[thaxceptional1]

why the *** is everyone quitting?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

So guys, who wants to go to Evo with me? Items on medium on a custom stage is the only way to play smash if you have REAL skillz!

I'm surprised they didn't up the damage ratio to 1.5 :/


...wait, whats this about Vayseth quitting?

 

[lain]

i want to go! yeah!

uhhmm yep. haha.

 

[Vayseth]

So guys, who wants to go to Evo with me? Items on medium on a custom stage is the only way to play smash if you have REAL skillz!

I'm surprised they didn't up the damage ratio to 1.5 :/


...wait, whats this about Vayseth quitting?

They actually doing items? I might enter, since I could use people who aren't meta/snake.

I'm getting REALLY sick of how campy and how unbalanced this game is REALLY fast =( I was thinking about quitting, but now I think all I have to do is learn Snake, and I might enjoy playing the game.

 

[Randizzle]

then don't camp =)

 

[lain]

play ganon. or falcon.

 

[Zankoku]

They actually doing items? I might enter, since I could use people who aren't meta/snake.

You can use characters who aren't Meta/Snake. People do it all the time in MI. Not like we ever really followed the tiers that closely around here...

I'm getting REALLY sick of how campy and how unbalanced this game is REALLY fast =( I was thinking about quitting, but now I think all I have to do is learn Snake, and I might enjoy playing the game.

TBH, the game might not be as horribly unbalanced as you'd be able to prove. Learning to play the high/top tiers (Snake, MK, Dedede, G&W, Marth, Wario, ROB, Pika) has been part of all fighter games, right? And nobody in Michigan's good enough with Snake or Meta Knight to break the local metagame, anyway.

 

[Vayseth]

It's more like I've seen that learning the game with any other characters is becoming more and more a waste of time, which is a problem. There is no issue with any other characters other than Meta and Snake. People might complain about G+W or ROB, but they're really not the issue here, they at least can be beaten by other characters.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

...Everyone says this game is campy and unbalanced... how am I the only person that doesn't see where that is coming from? And I don't want any "its cause you use snake" since I played with random as my main for months.

Edit: wait, you actually think MK and snake are unbeatably good? ...I'ma go back to studying now

 

[Zankoku]

I know they've gained quite a bit of attention in most of the country, but how are they such a big problem locally?

1. Anther (Pikachu)
2. Joel (G+W)
3. Lain (G+W, Ganondorf)
4. Rat (Falco)
5. 1der (Mario)
5. Rofa (Metaknight)
7. Shaeden (Marth)
7. Omniswell (Wolf, ICs)

1. Overswarm ($135, R.O.B.)
2. Anther ($57, Pikachu)
3. Shaeden ($22, Marth)
4. Skeet Shady ($10, Olimar, Fox, Marth)
5. Dope ($1, Dedede)
5. Samurai Panda ($1, Snake, Ganon,...?)
7. NoJ (G+W)
7. lain (Marth, G+W)

1. Needle of Juntah (G&W)
2. Anther (Pikachu)
3. Rofa (Meta Knight)
4. lain (G&W)
5. Bowyer (ROB)
5. Rat (Falco)
7. 1der (Mario)
7. Omniswell (Wolf)

How many Meta Knight players do you see? One? Really? And how about those Snakes? One Snake main? Who's been winning these tournaments? Joel (G&W), Anther (Pikachu), Overswarm (ROB)? I'm pretty sure there were a lot more MK/Snake players than just Panda and Rofa out in the bracket, but only these two actually made it as far as top eight.

 

[Vayseth]

As I said, locally it doesn't seem to matter as much, but if we want to place at big tournaments it's looking more and more like we're going to have to play the top tiers. And I almost 100% believe that the reason for our lack of Snakes or Metaknights in tournaments here are simply because:

1. We don't have any really game breaking ones, as you said.
2. We, as a community, pretty much hate snake and Metaknight. We don't see as many because most of us know that we should play characters we like, not who is good. I wouldn't be surprised if within the next month our number of Metaknights and Snakes double simply because a lot of people are getting sick of the game's nature.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm honestly one of the very few consistent snake players in A2, and I suck balls.

btw, tires don exist (yet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig

And Gimpyfish said on the podcast (released yesterday) that different characters are winning tournaments and seeing alot of representation in different regions. Around his area, they see alot of snakes and warios. D3 wins alot in the west coast (I think is what he said). Plus, why are you so concerned with big tournaments right now? We have some really good players in our area, some that place well at huge tournaments with "low tier" characters (nobody's pointing fingers anybody named anther :D). So whats the big deal?

 

[Vayseth]

I'm honestly one of the very few consistent snake players in A2, and I suck balls.

btw, tires don exist (yet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig

I'm less concerned about characters, and more concerned about the nature of the game itself. You proved that by linking a match that was one of the biggest campfests I've seen since me vs. Overswarm on Jungle Japes.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I was pointing out tiers not existing. And is that what you people call camping? Dude, if you're really concerned with that, learn how to consistently powershield while moving forward. It works wonders to beat that crap :D

Yeah, looked at the video again, I definitely don't see that as camping. Camping, at least to me, is refusing to engage the opponent and consistently running away. That game I linked was ridiculously offensive from my perspective.

 

[Vayseth]

What people fail to realize about the power shielding strategy is that that ONLY works if the camper has no brains and decides to not punish you for getting anywhere near them. If someone is walking forward and power shielding stuff, read it, knock them back, and continue. What a cool game x.x

This game lacks hit stun, which means you can be easily punished for hitting someone. PUNISHED ON HIT?! That's absolutely dumb. That's why most people are resorting to turtling EVERY character in the game until people are at high enough percents where they can knock them off the level. That's how this game is played.

 

[thaxceptional1]

samus is still good just noone ever uses her.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Oddly enough, what you fail to realize about the power shielding strategy is that the person power shielding can read the "camper" that is reading them. Isn't it weird that a game, like, evolves?

Anyways, I really don't feel like arguing this right now. I completely disagree with that entire sentiment, but I've been debating on SRK and in the SBR all day to try and fix the travesty that is Evo (we've fixed some of it, but I think they might just be using items in order to become the "SWF alternative"). I really need to get back to the books. Next time I see you we can talk about this at length if you wish :D

 

[Vayseth]

Yeah, I realize that man, but I truly believe that this game boils down to who is the better camper. I believe that is the most annoying aspect of the game right now. Having no hit stun means that being offensive can only get you punished. I don't know what else to say about it. All I see that is being argued is that people are saying that you can read a camper and then out camp them, which is almost always what happens. Metaknight and G+W are the only characters who seem to get away with being aggressive and that's because they can kill at such low percents and have such good movability that it doesn't matter. Almost every other character wins by camping.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Stop johning Vayseth. You're just like every other scrub who can't think outside the box and thats why you'll continue to be bad at this game.

And before you go, "the only reason you say that is because you play a campy character", know that all good ROBs other than OS play aggressively (the opposite of camping). And anyways, MI doesn't even play that campy.

I assume that the reason you're *****ing all of a sudden is because you lost to Unky's wolf when he laser camped and fsmashed when you got close. No offense to Unky, but that type of strategy is very predictable and easy to get around.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I made a new sig so everyone should praise it

 

[thaxceptional1]

ur sig sucks. and why does scotu play an ugly anime girl.

 

[HiddenBowser]

your sig sucks. and that randizzle, lol, because marth is a girl.

 

[Zankoku]

As I said, locally it doesn't seem to matter as much, but if we want to place at big tournaments it's looking more and more like we're going to have to play the top tiers.

As amazing as Mango was for winning *pound* 3 with Jigglypuff, guess who's been winning the majority of tournaments before that? Ken (Marth), Mew2King (Marth/Fox), PC Chris (Fox/Falco), Azen (Marth/whatever), Chu (Ice Climbers). Top tiers are top tiers because they win tournaments, not the other way around.

And I almost 100% believe that the reason for our lack of Snakes or Metaknights in tournaments here are simply because:

1. We don't have any really game breaking ones, as you said.
2. We, as a community, pretty much hate snake and Metaknight. We don't see as many because most of us know that we should play characters we like, not who is good. I wouldn't be surprised if within the next month our number of Metaknights and Snakes double simply because a lot of people are getting sick of the game's nature.

Not having any game-breaking examples = healthy metagame. I dislike Meta Knight as a whole because I can't derive any enjoyment playing as or against him, and I don't have much fun playing as Snake, but he's an awesome character and it's fun playing against him. I don't know what problem you have against Snake and Meta Knight, I just don't like Meta Knight's

Yeah, I realize that man, but I truly believe that this game boils down to who is the better camper. I believe that is the most annoying aspect of the game right now. Having no hit stun means that being offensive can only get you punished.

Well, not quite. The lack of hitstun means that the player on the defensive will rarely, if ever, end up at a disadvantageous position relative to one on the offensive. Camping is an extremity of defensive play, and something that happens. It's not game-breaking, it's just not fun because there are bad players who sit on one side of the stage spamming projectiles and the only difference between doing this and playing aggressively against me is that I'll either eventually beat them in 5 minutes or I'll quickly end the game in 2 minutes. I guess people at least feel like they're winning if the game takes longer.

I don't know what else to say about it. All I see that is being argued is that people are saying that you can read a camper and then out camp them, which is almost always what happens.

I play Marth. Outcamping anyone with a decent projectile game would be a pretty **** amazing feat for me. Yet, Pit is one of the characters I really am not worried about when I'm using Marth. Why? It's not like I can outplay a Pit by outcamping him with Marth.

Metaknight and G+W are the only characters who seem to get away with being aggressive and that's because they can kill at such low percents and have such good movability that it doesn't matter. Almost every other character wins by camping.

If that were true, I'd hate this game a lot more than me just not liking it as much as Melee. I'm worried about the metagame, yes, but not for the same reasons as you.

I made a new sig so everyone should praise it

Either I'm missing from that sig or you incorrectly have me down as a Peach main. I've kinda stopped maining Peach in Melee, too. It's all about the Sheik.

 

[Vayseth]

Stop johning Vayseth. You're just like every other scrub who can't think outside the box and thats why you'll continue to be bad at this game.

And before you go, "the only reason you say that is because you play a campy character", know that all good ROBs other than OS play aggressively (the opposite of camping). And anyways, MI doesn't even play that campy.

I assume that the reason you're *****ing all of a sudden is because you lost to Unky's wolf when he laser camped and fsmashed when you got close. No offense to Unky, but that type of strategy is very predictable and easy to get around.

All of a sudden? I've been like this for a week. I wouldn't have played if it wasn't for Rofa insisting on paying for my entry. I even THANKED you for being Rofa's partner since I didn't wanna play half ***** with him and lose since he really does want to play and win. You also well knew that before, seeing as I told you about this at Rofa's the night before, and played naruto more than I played Smash. You KNEW EXACTLY what I was talking about long before the tournament, so I don't know why you feel you have to be so high and mighty calling me a scrub and bad at this game.

Losing to a campy character has literally nothing to do with this argument. I'm not the only one to make it either. PLENTY of people are making the argument. Also, I never ONCE said I was good at this game. Not ONCE. Unlike some people who live in denial (YOU), I never once claimed to be good at this game. The moment you place in singles, let me know. Last I checked, you haven't done that yet. At least I haven't quit in the middle of a tournament.

Don't personally attack people on the internet. At least everyone else in this thread has been giving feedback and not personally attacking people, making a decent thread for debate. You haven't given ANYTHING to this thread and insisted on flaming me instead. Grow up and let's try to have a normal discussion about a topic as opposed to calling people names since we can't form arguments on our own.

 

[Vayseth]

Yeah Ankoku, you have quite a few good points. I'm going to basically call my arguments as experience I've had with the smash franchise in the small amount of time that I have been able to play it (aka 3 months). I'm going to continue to hold tournaments and continue to casually play the game. I believe a lot of my frustration is due to the game, but I also believe that a lot of it is due to my relative lack of experience with the game, in which I fully understand. I'mma quit the game for now (not enter tournaments) since I'm not exactly one to be nervous in tournament so I don't have those johns. It's more like I seem to be lacking a fundamental base in the smash world and that is what is keeping me from moving farther in this game. I'm going to try and figure that stuff out on my own in the mean time. Most of you have the advantage of understanding this game after a year plus of practice with melee. I believe I'm one of the few brawl-only players in MI who actively posts anywhere. I'm hoping that I can learn more about the fundamentals that I have missed out on and hopefully get back into the game later when I am ready. I think what really triggered any and all of this was your results that went snake, snake, meta, snake, snake. It reminded me of Naruto 4 nationals (one character was played for the entire tournament, out of 30+) and Tekken 4 Evo (same thing) and having one or two characters for an entire tournament where the game turns into dittos of broke tier is absolutely stupid. In other games (even melee) at least there were characters who COULD win over fox/falco. In this game, it almost seems like Snake/meta have ridiculously unbalanced match ups in their favor, and I'd hate to see this game go the tekken 4 route.

 

[Zankoku]

New England is Cort-land, where Cort's trying to persuade everyone to main Snake because Snake is the only top-tier character he enjoys playing as and against, or something like that.

East Coast has a pretty strict distribution of top/high tiers. Whether this is because it's the way the East Coast works or whether it's just everyone on the EC picking the best characters immediately I'm not sure about yet. Michigan has an odd environment (especially after Anther suddenly became ridiculous sometime around early '07), but not nearly as strange as I've seen in Texas, Cali, and Canada (Sonic, Wolf, Dedede, Ice Climbers, and Wario get quite a bit more representation out there, apparently).

 

[Vayseth]

Like I said, it's probably due to my relative lack of experience. I'm sure I'll come around eventually, but as of right now, I believe this game is pretty poor.

 

[rofa]

All of a sudden? I've been like this for a week. I wouldn't have played if it wasn't for Rofa insisting on paying for my entry. I even THANKED you for being Rofa's partner since I didn't wanna play half ***** with him and lose since he really does want to play and win. You also well knew that before, seeing as I told you about this at Rofa's the night before, and played naruto more than I played Smash. You KNEW EXACTLY what I was talking about long before the tournament, so I don't know why you feel you have to be so high and mighty calling me a scrub and bad at this game.

Losing to a campy character has literally nothing to do with this argument. I'm not the only one to make it either. PLENTY of people are making the argument. Also, I never ONCE said I was good at this game. Not ONCE. Unlike some people who live in denial (YOU), I never once claimed to be good at this game. The moment you place in singles, let me know. Last I checked, you haven't done that yet. At least I haven't quit in the middle of a tournament.

Don't personally attack people on the internet. At least everyone else in this thread has been giving feedback and not personally attacking people, making a decent thread for debate. You haven't given ANYTHING to this thread and insisted on flaming me instead. Grow up and let's try to have a normal discussion about a topic as opposed to calling people names since we can't form arguments on our own.

alex, i love you man, but that was perhaps the most hypocritical post ive ever read. to everyone here though, who cares why someone likes or dislikes the game. as has been said many times: play or don't play.

complaining and flaming each other is just silly, i know you guys will probably continue, but let's keep this topic constructive. you guys should all come to my smash balls tournament this friday! and the regular brawl tournament that follows on saturday. w00

 

[Levitas]

flaming is the spice of life.

Edit: whoops, I meant variety.

 

[Vayseth]

That referring to the post I just made? Just because I'm particularly mediocre at the game doesn't mean that I can't see the game for what it can be, and what it is. I don't like where the game is going and my reason for quitting would mainly be because the game is going nowhere fast, and why put effort into getting better at a game with no future? Say I do work my butt off and get better and fill in the gaps from my relative inexperience, what if my prediction is true and the game really does go nowhere? Then I would have wasted my time.

 

[rofa]

no alex! im sorry i edited my post lol. i meant the earlier post. and you made valid points, i was just saying that u somewhat contradicted yourself. but comon dude, you know that you can and WILL be great at this game, dude, seriously man. come over here and just chillax homie.

 

[Zankoku]

Flaming? All I did was debate. I've gotten so tired of seeing people suddenly pick "Brawl is amazing!" or "Brawl sucks!" that I spend my free time debating with them and seeing just how much is behind their belief. Which is funny, because I often end up arguing both sides against different people.