The Bias Between Tiers and Mains?

[Shollyboster]

Do you people think there is a huge difference in tiers due to a person maining a character? I've met many friends that say that their character is unironically the "BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME!!!1!11!" and so and so. However, I haven't seen much of this on the competitive level, where many people are quick to point to tiers for a definitive be all and end all.

So here is my homework assignment. Make a tier list for all the characters, and tell us your main. Is there a bias when making tiers, and does it affect the results based on which character a person mains? Let's see if we can find some sort of consensus with our answer, and if we get into a flame war then so be it.

I'll go first. Here is my tier list. I main Lucas, with a co-main for Ness.

Check this video out if you wanna see some shameless self-advertising.

 

[Ravengeance]

This is definitely a unique question. I feel that the overwhelming evidence of the top echelon of characters placings in tournaments nullifies any argument that most characters in the game have for being "the best character in Sm4sh. However, I do feel if someone plays a top tier character i.e. Cloud, ZSS, Rosalina that they could feel they play the best character in the game. But I think there's only so much wiggle room with this.

With recent nerfs to both Sheik and Bayonetta there isn't a clear cut #1 character right now. I personally played Sheik since Wii U launch and after the Diddy nerfs I thought she was the best character in the game. So maybe the fact that she was the character I personally was best with made me believe she was the best character. I can't deny that there is some validity to that line of reasoning.

But I don't see people playing Sonic, Pikachu, Mewtwo, or Mario for example, (characters that I believe are top 10 characters) thinking they play the best character in the game.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I wouldn't say tier bias, moreso that you have stronger opinions on those characters which may or may not move them higher.

For instance, I main both Lucas and Pac-Man, and I have those two characters (especially Lucas) higher on my tier list than most people would. However, even if I didn't play either of the characters, I would still put them where they are on the list. Since I main them, I've experimented with them more, seeing their true strengths and weaknesses compared with their representation, and it just turns out that those characters are in my eyes objectively better than most people would think.

On the other hand, I also play Meta Knight, Greninja, and Dr. Mario, and while part of me wants to move them higher because I play them, I looked at them as objectively as I could and saw that they matched with the normal trends. In fact, I've been moving Dr. Mario lower than the trend over time because I've come to notice how bad his flaws are, and yet I still enjoy playing him a lot.

TL;DR There usually is main bias, but it's not necessarily upward of the trend, and in fact can be below it.

 

[FamilyTeam]

There definitely is a bit, but for good reason. When you main a character, a lot of times, you end up seeing a few things other people might not. Some of these things are real while others obviously might be just your optimism speaking. This does affect tier lists a bit, but it's not like you're gonna see me put Lucina in Top 10.

 

[Shollyboster]

There definitely is a bit, but for good reason. When you main a character, a lot of times, you end up seeing a few things other people might not. Some of these things are real while others obviously might be just your optimism speaking. This does affect tier lists a bit, but it's not like you're gonna see me put Lucina in Top 10.

I think that tier lists should be more inclusive in their decision making. It's not enough to just cast a poll and see who everyone thinks is the best character. What we need is a forum where we can objectively rate characters and discuss their worth. That's what Iive been doing in another thread where right now we are discussing he best forwar tilt. In fact, I think I actually saw you on there!

Also, I am curious as to what your personal tier list is. Could you make one really quickly?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think that tier lists should be more inclusive in their decision making. It's not enough to just cast a poll and see who everyone thinks is the best character. What we need is a forum where we can objectively rate characters and discuss their worth. That's what Iive been doing in another thread where right now we are discussing he best forwar tilt. In fact, I think I actually saw you on there!

Also, I am curious as to what your personal tier list is. Could you make one really quickly?

Oh, yes! I was in that thread, for a bit! But mostly I just lurk there, I don't post very often.
We do have a thread for discussing things related to the official tier list, and we have another one for the community created tier list, if you are interested.
I was actually making a tier list just yesterday, discussing it with a few people from a Discord I frequent, and doing quite a bit of research regarding characters I weren't sure where they should go. If you are interested, this is it:

Some characters might have slightly interchangeable positions, but, for what I think, this is roughly what it would look like.

 

[Shollyboster]

I think, this is roughly what it would look like.

I'm curious, why did you put Link so high? I recall seeing a video out by a smasher explaining how bad he is. It might have been Isaw Smash, ZeRo, MySmashCorner, AceStar... I don't remember. They explained that you can get out of a lot of his attacks, and that it's very easy to punish him.

Thinking back, it is more likely it was ZeRo talking about his matchup. If I find the time I'll link it here. (Ayyyyy link pun intended)

 

[FamilyTeam]

37th isn't exactly what most would call a very high position :v
Truthfully speaking, Link has had more results than quite a few people that were placed behind him (this is a rather recent results list I found, but this wasn't the only one I checked), he still has quite a lot of tools on his disposal (much like Toon Link has), he has a few combos and mixups in his favour, he can live long and he hits very hard for someone his speed. But that is somewhat par for the course for most characters, and he still has too many issues to overcome, so he doesn't end up very high.
So yeah, in my opinion, 37th to about 42nd is where I'd put him.

 

[Shollyboster]

37th isn't exactly what most would call a very high position :v
Truthfully speaking, Link has had more results than quite a few people that were placed behind him (this is a rather recent results list I found, but this wasn't the only one I checked), he still has quite a lot of tools on his disposal (much like Toon Link has), he has a few combos and mixups in his favour, he can live long and he hits very hard for someone his speed. But that is somewhat par for the course for most characters, and he still has too many issues to overcome, so he doesn't end up very high.
So yeah, in my opinion, 37th to about 42nd is where I'd put him.

I guess I'm a little biased from my For Glory PTSD of Links. I think it just goes to show how balanced this game is that he is still somewhat viable.

 

[Nah]

If you've ever seen one of ESAM's tier lists, you know the answer is "yes".

 

[FamilyTeam]

If you've ever seen one of ESAM's tier lists, you know the answer is "yes".

Please don't mention his Tier Lists.
They legit scare me...

 

[Ze Diglett]

After much deliberation, here's my rough tier list:

Flame shields are up.
If you wanna know what characters I use, check my signature. Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. are who I would call my "mains."

 

[FamilyTeam]

Why is Corrin higher than Marth? Corrin doesn't have nearly the same results as Marth has had ever since he was buffed, and Marth probably has a lot of potential yet to be found (hell, we are still finding really neat and dangerous Lucina stuff).
I also wouldn't understand why WFT is so high, either.

 

[Axel311]

Your main definitely makes you biased towards tiers. Example: ESAM really overrates pikachu and underrates zero suit. Why? Because he mains pikachu and pikachu beats zero suit.

The other day Dabuz made his tier list and put pacman in the bottom 3. I can't imagine that's not due to Rosalina destroying him.

When you spend so much time playing against certain characters that your main either has a really good or really bad MU against, it becomes tough to see that character from more than 1 angle. You tend to overrate or underrate them. That's my theory.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Why is Corrin higher than Marth? Corrin doesn't have nearly the same results as Marth has had ever since he was buffed, and Marth probably has a lot of potential yet to be found (hell, we are still finding really neat and dangerous Lucina stuff).
I also wouldn't understand why WFT is so high, either.

Suppose we have differing opinions. I don't hold results in too high a regard when formulating opinions on characters, although it does influence my opinion when I find it necessary (putting Mega Man, Marth, and Mewtwo as high as I did). For the most part, I consider theory, which is why I put Corrin and Wii Fit Trainer where I did, along with some other choices.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus is obviously top tier. Sakurai said so.









What? Oh, he must have meant Zero Suit Samus, you say? I completely agree.

 

[Shollyboster]

Samus is obviously top tier. Sakurai said so.









What? Oh, he must have meant Zero Suit Samus, you say? I completely agree.

Brawl is a balanced game. Sakurai said so.


Nice memes bud

 

[Crystanium]

Brawl is a balanced game. Sakurai said so.


Nice memes bud

I'm honestly not good at making a tier list. I'd probably say the top five are Diddy Kong, Shiek, Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, and Mario. I feel that Rosalina doesn't belong up there because she doesn't seem all that impressive. I feel her tier was greatly exaggerated. I wanted to make a personal tier list, but I felt it was too muddled.

 

[Shollyboster]

I'm honestly not good at making a tier list.

Uh, I have to agree with you on that part.

I feel that Rosalina doesn't belong up there because she doesn't seem all that impressive. I feel her tier was greatly exaggerated.

I feel like any character that can reliably set up into a 40% up-air kill deserves a high tier. Rosalina absolutely bodies Ness and Lucas, and has good tools to deal with most other characters. Saying she isn't a top tier is like saying Ice Climber's chain grabs in Brawl were just okay. (I would say Meta Knight but even she isn't as broken as him.)

If you've ever seen one of ESAM's tier lists, you know the answer is "yes".

Seeing ESAM play pikachu makes me want that pokemon to be high on the tier list. I just think that people haven't dug into pikachu enough, and it is nice to see a smasher creep into a nice little niche.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I dunno, bias will also creep in to a lot of tier lists, whether it is a hatred of some character (you have Link pitifully low for example) vs someone thinking their main is better than they are (some Bowser mains believe he is a lower high tier). We have some general areas currently in the meta where most high tiers go and the bottom tiers. After that it's kind of a free for all. I can take a shot at making my own list after work

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I just thought of a true example of the stereotypical main bias that everyone hates.

I have a friend who mains Meta Knight, and he refuses to hear me put post-nerf Meta Knight outside of the top ten. He consistently only mentions theoretical strengths and never weaknesses. He greatly overestimates how many results Meta Knight has gotten post-nerf, always tauting MKLeo's victory over Nairo at GOML 2016 even though MKLeo has since moved on to Marth and Cloud, and Abadango's victory over Dabuz at Pound 2016 mostly due to the Rosalina matchup. I try to show him the truth, but he's too stubborn to get past his main bias. (He also puts Pac-Man even higher than I do because I play him, but that's a different story.)

 

[flamer180]

The truth is coming out. This day is great.

 

[FamilyTeam]

The truth is coming out. This day is great.

What truth? About a character? What character?...
We have talked about a lot of peeps, here.

 

[Crystanium]

Shollyboster You'd have to take my word on my not being good at making tier lists, after all. I've never made one before, although I'm thinking of a certain, albeit, imperfect approach at making one eventually. There won't be room for bias, at least.

What I'm saying about Rosalina is that her Luma has greatly exaggerated her performance. I think once you deal with Luma, it's not as bad of a match. Although what is annoying is Luma players running off without their Luma. That kind of tells you something. I don't use Ness or Lucas to care about how Rosalina handles those two.

I think top five right now should be Diddy, Shiek, ZSS, Cloud, and Ryu.

 

[Swevester]

People can separate their opinions from a tier list. They don't always, because there will always be those people who only play characters for their tier placement or will argue that tiers in general don't matter, probably proving that they main a low tier. I'm well aware that Link has never really been a good character by tournament standards, but I really don't care. I find him fun to play and I have his movement, attacks and overall playstyle down to a point. I honestly suck at Toon Link however, because him and Link have very different ways of fighting and i am simply more accustomed to how Link fights. Of course I still enjoy seeing a Link get decently far in tournaments, even if he's never really reached the top in anything major he's still fun to me.

I guess I'm a little biased from my For Glory PTSD of Links. I think it just goes to show how balanced this game is that he is still somewhat viable.

Never compare FG players to how a character can truly use his/her/it's potential. Otherwise, Cloud would most certainly be bottom tier, and we know that isn't true. Lol

 

[flamer180]

People can separate their opinions from a tier list. They don't always, because there will always be those people who only play characters for their tier placement or will argue that tiers in general don't matter, probably proving that they main a low tier. I'm well aware that Link has never really been a good character by tournament standards, but I really don't care. I find him fun to play and I have his movement, attacks and overall playstyle down to a point. I honestly suck at Toon Link however, because him and Link have very different ways of fighting and i am simply more accustomed to how Link fights. Of course I still enjoy seeing a Link get decently far in tournaments, even if he's never really reached the top in anything major he's still fun to me.



Never compare FG players to how a character can truly use his/her/it's potential. Otherwise, Cloud would most certainly be bottom tier, and we know that isn't true. Lol

I agree. I agree that you shouldnt base potiential off one thing like for glory. But you should also not base potiential off tournaments either.
Because there might be even BETTER players from around the world that cannot simply get to tournaments for whatever reason.

Little Mac truely is the king of smash.

 

[Swevester]

I agree. I agree that you shouldnt base potiential off one thing like for glory. But you should also not base potiential off tournaments either.
Because there might be even BETTER players from around the world that cannot simply get to tournaments for whatever reason.

Little Mac truely is the king of smash.

Hey, this actually doesn't look like bait. And you're correct about tournament standards because if you just play with friends, they simply don't matter at all. Jiggs could be top tier if it's between you and 10 other people.

 

[flamer180]

Hey, this actually doesn't look like bait. And you're correct about tournament standards because if you just play with friends, they simply don't matter at all. Jiggs could be top tier if it's between you and 10 other people.

Well I dont see what you think my post are bait for lol

buuuuut anyway

i was actually saying tournaments arent fully accurate. dont know if you understand me or not lol

but yea if your 10 friends are ALL playing with jigglypuff or just suck haha

 

[Swevester]

Since we're talking about tier lists, shall I share mine? It probably won't be accurate but it's as close as I can come.

S-,,,,
A-,,,,
B-,,,,
C-,,,,
D-,,,,
E-,,,,
F-,,,,
G-,,,,
H-,,,,
I-,,,,
J-,,,,

Unlisted- (because idk what to do with them)

 

[Shollyboster]

Since we're talking about tier lists, shall I share mine? It probably won't be accurate but it's as close as I can come.

S-,,,,
A-,,,,
B-,,,,
C-,,,,
D-,,,,
E-,,,,
F-,,,,
G-,,,,
H-,,,,
I-,,,,
J-,,,,

Unlisted- (because idk what to do with them)

Event hubs would looooove you.

 

[Swevester]

Event hubs would looooove you.

Doubt it, is like 14th on their tier list.

 

[zeldasmash]

Link is 34-ish on their tier list now.

 

[Swevester]

Well hey, I gave it my best shot. I never expected it to be perfect and I think I hit some characters right on the head. It's difficult trying to understand where a character would be, especially in a game so incredibly balanced (or at least compared to previous iterations of Smash).

 

[Shollyboster]

Well hey, I gave it my best shot. I never expected it to be perfect and I think I hit some characters right on the head. It's difficult trying to understand where a character would be, especially in a game so incredibly balanced (or at least compared to previous iterations of Smash).

Call me a casual, but I think that tiers don't even matter in the end. It's all about how you dare in experience and with the MU.

 

[Swevester]

Call me a casual, but I think that tiers don't even matter in the end. It's all about how you dare in experience and with the MU.

In this game, I agree. Because in 64 you basically had to be Pikachu, Kirby, Fox or Falcon to be any good. In Melee, you had to be Fox, bird Fox, generic swordsman from what game?, Captain Meme, better Zelda, Wobbles or Back Air: the game, the ride, the experience. In Brawl...well...we all know how that one goes ().

In Sm4sh those rules still apply to the tops being the best due to their tools still overall being better, but they're not so much better that there's literally no way anyone below high tier could win. The gap between the top and bottom is very small this time around. You can still play Mega Man, Ike, Donkey Kong, or in my case Link without feeling like you're playing a character who was...forgotten about. I say that because that's exactly how it felt like Link played in Brawl: forgotten about.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Since we're talking about tier lists, shall I share mine? It probably won't be accurate but it's as close as I can come.

S-,,,,
A-,,,,
B-,,,,
C-,,,,
D-,,,,
E-,,,,
F-,,,,
G-,,,,
H-,,,,
I-,,,,
J-,,,,

Unlisted- (because idk what to do with them)

glares at tier list for a couple of minutes
Oh, *ahem*... Well, you have got some interesting opinions?...
What makes you believe that...

• S-Tier looks like that?;
  
• Falcon and Luigi are Top 20?;
• Marth being only 26th with Robin 27th?;
• Roy being three whole tiers above where he probably should be?;
• Peach being 3 whole tiers below where she probably should be?;
• Charizard being a tier above where it probably should be?;
  
• Lucina and Shulk and Olimar being Bottom 10?...;
• Palutena 49th?;
• Doctor Mario Bottom 5?

...You kinda need to explain your feelings, here. Some of this actually makes no sense.

 

[Swevester]

glares at tier list for a couple of minutes
Oh, *ahem*... Well, you have got some interesting opinions?...
What makes you believe that...

• S-Tier looks like that?;
  
• Falcon and Luigi are Top 20?;
• Marth being only 26th with Robin 27th?;
• Roy being three whole tiers above where he probably should be?;
• Peach being 3 whole tiers below where she probably should be?;
• Charizard being a tier above where it probably should be?;
  
• Lucina and Shulk and Olimar being Bottom 10?...;
• Palutena 49th?;
• Doctor Mario Bottom 5?

...You kinda need to explain your feelings, here. Some of this actually makes no sense.

Very well then.

• Yes, S tier looks like that. If the order is incorrect, then apologies but I don't believe these characters should be any lower.
• Falcon and Luigi being top 20 makes complete sense, I actually don't understand the confusion in this.
• I put Marth where I felt he belonged after his buffs and better results. This placement isn't so much that I'm saying he couldn't beat those above him more than I'm saying the characters above him have done better (save for MAYBE Wario, again I'm not perfect).
• Roy has done substantially better than it seems anyone is willing to admit and it isn't like his tier placement on my list is all that high anyways.
• Peach is what I concede defeat to. She's a wild card to me because I almost never see her and I know little about her.
• Zard gets the Roy treatment as well, after his buffs there's no way he could be any lower than where I put him. I was actually kind of iffy putting him that low to begin with.
• The rest, you're going to have to explain your confusion. If Olimar is perhaps slightly above bottom 10 then fine but I simply do not believe these characters are any better than where I placed them. And when the Miis are not on the list (not by choice, I just can't put my finger on them), it's very believable that Doc could be bottom 5. Never forget that this game is actually pretty good in how it balances and trying to organize the mid tier is a complete pain in the ***.

 

[Shollyboster]

Very well then.

• Yes, S tier looks like that. If the order is incorrect, then apologies but I don't believe these characters should be any lower.
• Falcon and Luigi being top 20 makes complete sense, I actually don't understand the confusion in this.
• I put Marth where I felt he belonged after his buffs and better results. This placement isn't so much that I'm saying he couldn't beat those above him more than I'm saying the characters above him have done better (save for MAYBE Wario, again I'm not perfect).
• Roy has done substantially better than it seems anyone is willing to admit and it isn't like his tier placement on my list is all that high anyways.
• Peach is what I concede defeat to. She's a wild card to me because I almost never see her and I know little about her.
• Zard gets the Roy treatment as well, after his buffs there's no way he could be any lower than where I put him. I was actually kind of iffy putting him that low to begin with.
• The rest, you're going to have to explain your confusion. If Olimar is perhaps slightly above bottom 10 then fine but I simply do not believe these characters are any better than where I placed them. And when the Miis are not on the list (not by choice, I just can't put my finger on them), it's very believable that Doc could be bottom 5. Never forget that this game is actually pretty good in how it balances and trying to organize the mid tier is a complete pain in the ***.

In a game centered around match ups, it's much harder to agree on tier placement. Don't worry about what he said. I can see your perspective on your tier list.

 

[Swevester]

In a game centered around match ups, it's much harder to agree on tier placement. Don't worry about what he said. I can see your perspective on your tier list.

I might have misinterpreted how I was answering, I love being able to explain myself because sometimes I can shine a new light into someone's perspective and maybe they can do the same to me. But thank you.

 

[Smudges]

Yes, S tier looks like that. If the order is incorrect, then apologies but I don't believe these characters should be any lower.

Ok, ok. Uh... where to start?

Ryu number 1. No. The reason for this is because my top 3 (Diddy, Sheik, Rosa) have 60:40 MU's with Ryu. They're not unwinnable, but not favorable. Ryu can't be top 3 if he loses to the top 3.

Mario number 2. Mario doesn't really have good physical range, even if he has a projectile. Also, he's got a pretty linear recovery. I can see him like, 5th-ish, but not anywhere above that.

Zss is good, undoubtedly. But after the nerf, her punish game simply isn't as overwhelming as it used to be, while her lackluster neutral remained unchanged. She's still got all the tools, but they're not as good. I put her 7th-ish.

Sheik and Cloud are top 5, for sure.

Falcon and Luigi being top 20 makes complete sense, I actually don't understand the confusion in this.

Falcon's got bad range, and bad approach options outside of dashgrabs and mixups. He also relies on reads for kills, outside of very specific and rage + DI dependant knee combos. He also suffers from an incredibly poor recovery, in regards to the fact that it's telegraphed as hell.

Luigi's got combos, but he has booty airspeed and approach. Again, suffers from a p bad recovery. It's completely linear: either from directly below the stage, or from horizontal. Diagonal recovery is bad outside of mashing Tornado. Similarly, Luigi gets kills off of combos at certain percents, but outside of that, he needs reads.

I put Marth where I felt he belonged after his buffs and better results. This placement isn't so much that I'm saying he couldn't beat those above him more than I'm saying the characters above him have done better (save for MAYBE Wario, again I'm not perfect).

If you're factoring in Marth's buffs and recent performance, he definitely goes higher than 26th. I'd put him near Yoshi somewhere on your list, personally.

If Olimar is perhaps slightly above bottom 10 then fine

Um.
Olimar has combos, decent range, kill confirms, and killthrows, although they are dependant on the Pikmin. Smart players are very good with Pikmin management, and this doesn't become an issue. His small size also lets him avoid many attacks. He suffers from being really light and from his attacks clashing due to pikmin being considered projectiles. This character is *easilly* mid tier.

Watch Dabuz.

There's more, but I've gotta go for now.
I'll be back to finish this.

I'll talk about like

DIDDY IN B TIER, SMH