The Bias Between Tiers and Mains?

[Wintermelon43]

Since we're talking about tier lists, shall I share mine? It probably won't be accurate but it's as close as I can come.

S-,,,,
A-,,,,
B-,,,,
C-,,,,
D-,,,,
E-,,,,
F-,,,,
G-,,,,
H-,,,,
I-,,,,
J-,,,,

Unlisted- (because idk what to do with them)

Well that list is kinda crazy. Main crazy things being

• Diddy not being top 2, let alone top 10
• Bayo and Pika in top 10 (Also Mewtwo not being in it)
• The entire D tier being in top 25 (Except the Pits probably)
• Robin in top 30
• Lucario not top 25
• Mega Man not top 15
• Rob being a little low
• Pac-Man and Peach being like two tiers too low
• Falco and Roy not bottom 15
• Bowser Jr being too high
• The entire I tier being low tier
• Dr. Mario bottom 5 (Although he isn't TOO much higher)

All imo.

Very well then.

• Yes, S tier looks like that. If the order is incorrect, then apologies but I don't believe these characters should be any lower.
• Falcon and Luigi being top 20 makes complete sense, I actually don't understand the confusion in this.
• I put Marth where I felt he belonged after his buffs and better results. This placement isn't so much that I'm saying he couldn't beat those above him more than I'm saying the characters above him have done better (save for MAYBE Wario, again I'm not perfect).
• Roy has done substantially better than it seems anyone is willing to admit and it isn't like his tier placement on my list is all that high anyways.
• Peach is what I concede defeat to. She's a wild card to me because I almost never see her and I know little about her.
• Zard gets the Roy treatment as well, after his buffs there's no way he could be any lower than where I put him. I was actually kind of iffy putting him that low to begin with.
• The rest, you're going to have to explain your confusion. If Olimar is perhaps slightly above bottom 10 then fine but I simply do not believe these characters are any better than where I placed them. And when the Miis are not on the list (not by choice, I just can't put my finger on them), it's very believable that Doc could be bottom 5. Never forget that this game is actually pretty good in how it balances and trying to organize the mid tier is a complete pain in the ***.

Roy has like...... no results dude.

Ok, ok. Uh... where to start?

Ryu number 1. No. The reason for this is because my top 3 (Diddy, Sheik, Rosa) have 60:40 MU's with Ryu. They're not unwinnable, but not favorable. Ryu can't be top 3 if he loses to the top 3.

Mario number 2. Mario doesn't really have good physical range, even if he has a projectile. Also, he's got a pretty linear recovery. I can see him like, 5th-ish, but not anywhere above that.

Zss is good, undoubtedly. But after the nerf, her punish game simply isn't as overwhelming as it used to be, while her lackluster neutral remained unchanged. She's still got all the tools, but they're not as good. I put her 7th-ish.

Sheik and Cloud are top 5, for sure.



Falcon's got bad range, and bad approach options outside of dashgrabs and mixups. He also relies on reads for kills, outside of very specific and rage + DI dependant knee combos. He also suffers from an incredibly poor recovery, in regards to the fact that it's telegraphed as hell.

Luigi's got combos, but he has booty airspeed and approach. Again, suffers from a p bad recovery. It's completely linear: either from directly below the stage, or from horizontal. Diagonal recovery is bad outside of mashing Tornado. Similarly, Luigi gets kills off of combos at certain percents, but outside of that, he needs reads.



If you're factoring in Marth's buffs and recent performance, he definitely goes higher than 26th. I'd put him near Yoshi somewhere on your list, personally.


Um.
Olimar has combos, decent range, kill confirms, and killthrows, although they are dependant on the Pikmin. Smart players are very good with Pikmin management, and this doesn't become an issue. His small size also lets him avoid many attacks. He suffers from being really light and from his attacks clashing due to pikmin being considered projectiles. This character is *easilly* mid tier.

Watch Dabuz.

There's more, but I've gotta go for now.
I'll be back to finish this.

I'll talk about like

DIDDY IN B TIER, SMH

Marth top 20 is too far. The spot he's at in that guy's list is probably correct.

Also, Falcon's either the end of top 20 or right before it, I don't see how that's so crazy.

Oh, and Shuton, Myran, and Angbad are pretty much as good, if not better than Dabuz with Olimar.

 

[Swevester]

Ok, ok. Uh... where to start?

Ryu number 1. No. The reason for this is because my top 3 (Diddy, Sheik, Rosa) have 60:40 MU's with Ryu. They're not unwinnable, but not favorable. Ryu can't be top 3 if he loses to the top 3.

Mario number 2. Mario doesn't really have good physical range, even if he has a projectile. Also, he's got a pretty linear recovery. I can see him like, 5th-ish, but not anywhere above that.

Zss is good, undoubtedly. But after the nerf, her punish game simply isn't as overwhelming as it used to be, while her lackluster neutral remained unchanged. She's still got all the tools, but they're not as good. I put her 7th-ish.

Sheik and Cloud are top 5, for sure.



Falcon's got bad range, and bad approach options outside of dashgrabs and mixups. He also relies on reads for kills, outside of very specific and rage + DI dependant knee combos. He also suffers from an incredibly poor recovery, in regards to the fact that it's telegraphed as hell.

Luigi's got combos, but he has booty airspeed and approach. Again, suffers from a p bad recovery. It's completely linear: either from directly below the stage, or from horizontal. Diagonal recovery is bad outside of mashing Tornado. Similarly, Luigi gets kills off of combos at certain percents, but outside of that, he needs reads.



If you're factoring in Marth's buffs and recent performance, he definitely goes higher than 26th. I'd put him near Yoshi somewhere on your list, personally.


Um.
Olimar has combos, decent range, kill confirms, and killthrows, although they are dependant on the Pikmin. Smart players are very good with Pikmin management, and this doesn't become an issue. His small size also lets him avoid many attacks. He suffers from being really light and from his attacks clashing due to pikmin being considered projectiles. This character is *easilly* mid tier.

Watch Dabuz.

There's more, but I've gotta go for now.
I'll be back to finish this.

I'll talk about like

DIDDY IN B TIER, SMH

Alrighty, first to be addressed:

• Not to be rude, but I DID say if the order was incorrect, then forgive me. In addition, ZSS got nerfed, sure, but it wasn't so drastic that she should fall 5 spots IMO. Cloud got nerfed too and he moved up the list, and both are still pretty commonly played.
• I know the weaknesses of Falcon and Weegee but their strengths have more than made up for it, namely an incredible combo game for both of them, excellent ways to get a pressuring foe off of them and decently safe options (unless you just HAVE to get that Falcon Punch off).
• As for Marth, he could definitely be higher but the question remained as to where he should be put. Around Yoshi could work but I was aiming for a ball park.
• I've watched Dabuz, you aren't the first person to have told me to do that. I like how he plays but OliAlph still suffers from the inability to be consistent: what I mean is, picking up Mario or Cloud is far easier than picking up someone like G&W or Olimar because you're always having to work around their glaring weaknesses, and sometimes even the best veterans of the characters can make one small fluke and suddenly their flaws are once again very...apparent. It's why Mac will probably never leave his general area on the tier list.

Edit: Fine, I didn't put Diddy where he should be. I don't believe putting him at top 2 is correct but he should at least be in top 10.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Very well then.

• Yes, S tier looks like that. If the order is incorrect, then apologies but I don't believe these characters should be any lower.
• Falcon and Luigi being top 20 makes complete sense, I actually don't understand the confusion in this.
• I put Marth where I felt he belonged after his buffs and better results. This placement isn't so much that I'm saying he couldn't beat those above him more than I'm saying the characters above him have done better (save for MAYBE Wario, again I'm not perfect).
• Roy has done substantially better than it seems anyone is willing to admit and it isn't like his tier placement on my list is all that high anyways.
• Peach is what I concede defeat to. She's a wild card to me because I almost never see her and I know little about her.
• Zard gets the Roy treatment as well, after his buffs there's no way he could be any lower than where I put him. I was actually kind of iffy putting him that low to begin with.
• The rest, you're going to have to explain your confusion. If Olimar is perhaps slightly above bottom 10 then fine but I simply do not believe these characters are any better than where I placed them. And when the Miis are not on the list (not by choice, I just can't put my finger on them), it's very believable that Doc could be bottom 5. Never forget that this game is actually pretty good in how it balances and trying to organize the mid tier is a complete pain in the ***.

Erm, the problem is...

• Ryu cannot be first. He doesn't have the results nor the playerbase for that. He has very good potential but overall his matchups with the other Top Tiers can actually be troublesome. Mario cannot really be second because he does have a few weaknesses that, while not horrible, do stop him from being Top 3. He is probably 5th, or 4th at best. ZSS, after the nerfs, doesn't really belong in Top 3. She is still Top 10, but she does have problems keeping up thanks to the slightly decreased weight and her neutral. Cloud and Sheik are alright (though I would place Sheik higher), but there have been quite a few people pointing out how lacklustre Cloud can really be, pointing that some of his weaknesses are starting to show.
  • I should also note that it's odd Diddy Kong is not present in your Top 5, considering his large playerbase, great theory and great results;
• I don't really have problems with A other than I'd place Bayo and Pikachu lower and Fox higher;
• In C: Toon Link definitely isn't 16th. Sadly, after the unfortunate incident with Hyuga, a large drop in results is probably gonna come with him, but being that he is still good, he is probably still Top 25. Now. The problem with Captain Falcon is that his theory and results kind of don't match the profile of someone there. He is still a good character and probably around Top 25, too;
• Putting Marth at the position he was is kind of underrating him. Nowadays, he has excellent results, and definitely deserves to be much higher, probably Top 20 at worst or maybe even Top 15. Roy? Roy actually has some of the worst results for a character out there, where have you been looking at? He has bad results and bad theory, pretty much, as well. It's also realy hard for me to see why Lucina would be so low. What exactly is wrong with her?

There is more, but I'm going through a rough night, so I can't write for longer.

 

[Swevester]

Erm, the problem is...

• Ryu cannot be first. He doesn't have the results nor the playerbase for that. He has very good potential but overall his matchups with the other Top Tiers can actually be troublesome. Mario cannot really be second because he does have a few weaknesses that, while not horrible, do stop him from being Top 3. He is probably 5th, or 4th at best. ZSS, after the nerfs, doesn't really belong in Top 3. She is still Top 10, but she does have problems keeping up thanks to the slightly decreased weight and her neutral. Cloud and Sheik are alright (though I would place Sheik higher), but there have been quite a few people pointing out how lacklustre Cloud can really be, pointing that some of his weaknesses are starting to show.
  • I should also note that it's odd Diddy Kong is not present in your Top 5, considering his large playerbase, great theory and great results;
• I don't really have problems with A other than I'd place Bayo and Pikachu lower and Fox higher;
• In C: Toon Link definitely isn't 16th. Sadly, after the unfortunate incident with Hyuga, a large drop in results is probably gonna come with him, but being that he is still good, he is probably still Top 25. Now. The problem with Captain Falcon is that his theory and results kind of don't match the profile of someone there. He is still a good character and probably around Top 25, too;
• Putting Marth at the position he was is kind of underrating him. Nowadays, he has excellent results, and definitely deserves to be much higher, probably Top 20 at worst or maybe even Top 15. Roy? Roy actually has some of the worst results for a character out there, where have you been looking at? He has bad results and bad theory, pretty much, as well. It's also realy hard for me to see why Lucina would be so low. What exactly is wrong with her?

There is more, but I'm going through a rough night, so I can't write for longer.

I'm sorry to hear about your rough night. Anyways...

• I definitely can't underestimate Ryu. Perhaps his weight can make him easy to juggle for certain characters, namely the ones you've mentioned. If under reconsideration I could probably see him as 3rd, but really the only problem with Ryu is that he isn't played as often as the other top tiers. I still disagree with ZSS, but at that point it boils down to opinion because even with her nerfs, her metagame was barely phased. I've actually always thought Cloud was overhyped, but...results don't lie. In addition I mentioned on a previous post that I edited in saying Diddy not being top 10 was my b.
• If a few characters need readjusting in some places, okay. Like I've said maybe 5 times at this point, I never anticipated the list to be 100% accurate.
• I had heard about that but I didn't expect Toon Link's meta to be effected that badly...I knew he was good, and he still is because I'm fairly certain he isn't going anywhere. I don't think any charges are being pressed or anything like that.
• I still really feel like Marth needs more time before I can say he's in top 20. Top 25 is still really good and it sounds about accurate as of right now. To be honest about Roy, I was just surprised he was ever above Marth. I suppose Lucina COULD be higher, but she doesn't have a giant player base to merit going much higher.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I still really feel like Marth needs more time before I can say he's in top 20. Top 25 is still really good and it sounds about accurate as of right now. To be honest about Roy, I was just surprised he was ever above Marth. I suppose Lucina COULD be higher, but she doesn't have a giant player base to merit going much higher.

About the Lucina situation, to quote myself from another thread,

Judging a characters potential without results can be difficult, but atleast being a clone or a semiclone does help gauge it. That's how I came to the conclusion that Lucina can't exactly be close to Marth by atleast 5 spots but she also can't be any more than about 9 or 10 away from him. She still has a lot of the same things that make Marth good, but with different options to get to them, and having a consistent blade can make valuable differences, but the overall lack of results for her is honestly staggering and heavily disappointing, which is why I can't see them right next to each other.

Overall, what holds Lucina from being right next to Marth is the lack of results, yes, but her overall similarities to Marth in usefullness and matchups (and she has better matchups against some characters, too, and some of those characters are Top 15 even) means she cannot be spaced that far apart from him, either.

 

[Swevester]

About the Lucina situation, to quote myself from another thread,

Overall, what holds Lucina from being right next to Marth is the lack of results, yes, but her overall similarities to Marth in usefullness and matchups (and she has better matchups against some characters, too, and some of those characters are Top 15 even) means she cannot be spaced that far apart from him, either.

Lucina is, in a way, the trickiest clone to really put into a tier list when compared to her original character. Pit and Pittoo are always going to be right next to each other, Mario is so significantly better than Doc that comparing the two doesn't matter. You CAN say she is better than my placement, and you're probably right, but without a very big representation or results, she must fall back on her frame data and MUs. Even if there are a few odd MUs that she is able to deal with easier than Marth, Marth's MU spreadsheet is overall more consistent (ironically). If I were to follow your guidelines of 10 spaces at most, I would have to go with the most of 10 spaces away.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lucina is, in a way, the trickiest clone to really put into a tier list when compared to her original character. Pit and Pittoo are always going to be right next to each other, Mario is so significantly better than Doc that comparing the two doesn't matter. You CAN say she is better than my placement, and you're probably right, but without a very big representation or results, she must fall back on her frame data and MUs. Even if there are a few odd MUs that she is able to deal with easier than Marth, Marth's MU spreadsheet is overall more consistent (ironically). If I were to follow your guidelines of 10 spaces at most, I would have to go with the most of 10 spaces away.

Though what MU chart are you basing this knowledge of? Because they mostly have the same MUs except for a couple who are better for either one. They are very similar, which is why they're close together, but we cannot gauge how truly good Lucina is because nobody uses her, which means she also can't be that close.

 

[Swevester]

Though what MU chart are you basing this knowledge of? Because they mostly have the same MUs except for a couple who are better for either one. They are very similar, which is why they're close together, but we cannot gauge how truly good Lucina is because nobody uses her, which means she also can't be that close.

And I agree, we need more Lucina players. Like we need more of...well...a lot of players with lower tier characters. Some are just vastly underrated because they aren't played as much (or at all). With more players using her it would be easier to close the gap on the two, but as it stands I'm with what I say at pushing her spot to the max of 10 below Marth.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So, I guess its time for me to get bashed on? Note I Main/Secondary Pit/Dark Pit, Sonic, Rosalina and Luma, Bayonetta, and Corrin. I am really bad at ordering tier lists btw.

A+ Rank -
A Rank -
B Rank-
B- Rank
C Rank -
C- Rank -
D Rank -
E Rank -




Notes -

• could go in S, but I was unsure
  
• I probably overate and think she could go in the tier above but I like my sanity
• I am REALLY bad at ordering tiers, so keep that in mind.
• I might have forgot some characters so please forgive me
• I had NO idea where to place the Miis, so thus I could not give my opinion on them, but I plan on doing my research on them soon :D
• I also think Robin is better than Lucina, but like I said above I was unsure about placing Robin any higher

Don't bash me too hard

 

[Swevester]

So, I guess its time for me to get bashed on? Note I Main/Secondary Pit/Dark Pit, Sonic, Rosalina and Luma, Bayonetta, and Corrin. I am really bad at ordering tier lists btw.

A+ Rank -
A Rank -
B Rank-
B- Rank
C Rank -
C- Rank -
D Rank -
E Rank -




Notes -

• could go in S, but I was unsure
  
• I probably overate and think she could go in the tier above but I like my sanity
• I am REALLY bad at ordering tiers, so keep that in mind.
• I might have forgot some characters so please forgive me
• I had NO idea where to place the Miis, so thus I could not give my opinion on them, but I plan on doing my research on them soon :D
• I also think Robin is better than Lucina, but like I said above I was unsure about placing Robin any higher

Don't bash me too hard

I like it, it makes me realize a few things:

- I may have underestimated .
- I may have overestimated .
- where I probably should have put her.
- It makes 's placement be called into question (I thought he'd be higher than that IMO).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I like it, it makes me realize a few things:

- I may have underestimated .
- I may have overestimated .
- where I probably should have put her.
- It makes 's placement be called into question (I thought he'd be higher than that IMO).

I can explain Pikachu tommorowni as I am in mobile and don't wanna type an essay like this.

 

[Bigbomb2]

K lemme throw mine out

Top -
High -
Lower-High -
Miiiid - ()
Slightly Lower Mid -
Lower -
Actual Low -

I personally believe nearly every character is great in the right hands and with a superb player. It's just some characters simply do have an easier time with MU's, ease of use, etc but that's why I have it that most characters are a variation of mid. Like I personally believe D3 is pretty meh but he often does surprisingly well. Like over half the cast suffers from too few top players for them to really make a splash. I always wonder what the tier list would look like if every character had the same top level representation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, I guess its time for me to get bashed on? Note I Main/Secondary Pit/Dark Pit, Sonic, Rosalina and Luma, Bayonetta, and Corrin. I am really bad at ordering tier lists btw.

A+ Rank -
A Rank -
B Rank-
B- Rank
C Rank -
C- Rank -
D Rank -
E Rank -




Notes -

• could go in S, but I was unsure
  
• I probably overate and think she could go in the tier above but I like my sanity
• I am REALLY bad at ordering tiers, so keep that in mind.
• I might have forgot some characters so please forgive me
• I had NO idea where to place the Miis, so thus I could not give my opinion on them, but I plan on doing my research on them soon :D
• I also think Robin is better than Lucina, but like I said above I was unsure about placing Robin any higher

Don't bash me too hard

You forgot Pac and DH

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

In C: Toon Link definitely isn't 16th. Sadly, after the unfortunate incident with Hyuga, a large drop in results is probably gonna come with him, but being that he is still good, he is probably still Top 25. Now. The problem with Captain Falcon is that his theory and results kind of don't match the profile of someone there. He is still a good character and probably around Top 25, too;

I can easily see why he put Toon Link that high. You mention that he isn't getting top level results anymore which means he's likely going to drop, but as with Pac-Man, the fact that he has gotten a ton of results in the past hasn't changed and validates his theory to where 16th is reasonable, if not a tad too low.

Anyway, here's my list. Feel free to bash as long as you justify it and prepare for my justification:

S :
A+:
A- :
B+:
B- :
C+:
C :

No Miis because ideally I would want to rank them based on Guest XXXX, but sadly that's not the norm for tournaments right now.

 

[Flesky]

On the topic of tink, zan recently placed 7th at ktar saga, knocking a few top players (like void) into losers. also, there are 2 japanese toon links (1 named ri-ma, dont know the other) so his meta isn't 100% screwed!

 

[Swevester]

I can easily see why he put Toon Link that high. You mention that he isn't getting top level results anymore which means he's likely going to drop, but as with Pac-Man, the fact that he has gotten a ton of results in the past hasn't changed and validates his theory to where 16th is reasonable, if not a tad too low.

Anyway, here's my list. Feel free to bash as long as you justify it and prepare for my justification:

S :
A+:
A- :
B+:
B- :
C+:
C :

No Miis because ideally I would want to rank them based on Guest XXXX, but sadly that's not the norm for tournaments right now.

I've actually seen get a lot of good results recently. 16th felt pretty good. Was debating on how to put him on the list, it actually feels like he is almost borderline top 10 (almost, not there yet). If, and I speak hypothetically, he were to win a national like did, there is no reason he is not 9th or 10th. That's mostly just IMO, but seriously.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I've actually seen get a lot of good results recently. 16th felt pretty good. Was debating on how to put him on the list, it actually feels like he is almost borderline top 10 (almost, not there yet). If, and I speak hypothetically, he were to win a national like did, there is no reason he is not 9th or 10th. That's mostly just IMO, but seriously.

He is still getting pretty strong results right now especially with Zan which would justify a high placement, but FamilyTeam didn't think so, and I wanted to continue where he was going to show that "low" current representation isn't devastating at all.

 

[FamilyTeam]

He is still getting pretty strong results right now especially with Zan which would justify a high placement, but FamilyTeam didn't think so, and I wanted to continue where he was going to show that "low" current representation isn't devastating at all.

Yes, I do acknowledge his results. However, I am worried for his future. If he keeps getting results, that is great, but losing such a big face in his community is a big blow.

 

[Swevester]

He is still getting pretty strong results right now especially with Zan which would justify a high placement, but FamilyTeam didn't think so, and I wanted to continue where he was going to show that "low" current representation isn't devastating at all.

That's true. A tier placement is a kind of square with four corners: representation, results, frame data and MUs. If one of them is weak it sucks, but it won't outright destroy a character's placement.

• Having bad representation only really means you are limited as to how far you can go, but you can still get pretty far. There are plenty of high/top characters that actually only have a few notable players.
• Results is clearly a bigger deal than representation, and with good reason. If everyone played Link except for one Toon Link player and the Tink player won, Link would most certainly look like a very low tier character.
• Frame data is like the IVs of Smash (comparing it to Pokemon). Characters don't even have to do anything tournament-wise, their frame data is already with them. This goes over startup, end lag, landing lag, autocancel windows, etc.
• MUs are some thing more of a mixture of the competitive scene and frame data, however. In this game in particular, MUs mean everything about where a character goes on a tier list.

I spewed a lot of information I'm sure everyone knows about, otherwise they wouldn't be on this thread. But when you look at where Toon Link stands with all of this, he's only really missing the "insurance" of the corners. Lack of representation doesn't mean a lot if the players are doing well with him, it just means if there's only one player carrying the character, then losing him/her would hinder the character drastically. Let's hope Toony doesn't lose any more players.

 

[Ulk]

I would never go as far as to call it bias, but I'd definitely say it corrupts placements. People who seriously main a character, and I mean really get into full detail, have an entirely different image of that character (provided we're talking about a true expert actually capable of getting this far with a character). That image is impossible to get for every single character, or even just a few at a time. So of course if you know so much about a certain character to the point where you simply think of him/her differently because you've explored their options to an extent most likely only other mains have explored, you have a different view of their capabilities. A possibly even more qualified view. However, when you compare them to other characters, this is where the corruption begins, because as much as you know about your main, you definitely won't know as much about any other character as well.

 

[Jaabir]

I think Mr game and watch should be a low mid sure he's light and move that kill but are hard to land he has a great recovery he has a good combo game he racks up damage easily and he is basically one of the best in gimping

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Generally we don't want to bump up older threads.

Locked.