The Bayonetta Stigma (and character hate in general)

[Funbot28]

Hey everyone, so I had talked about this a bit in the Tier List thread but I felt this issue needed its own thread to have good discussion upon. Genesis 4 just occurred last weekend and Captain Zack had made a phenomenal performance makign it all the way up to top 8 beating players such as ANTi, Komorokiri, and Abandango with his main Bayonetta. However, this has recently sparked the negative discussion and talks about hating the character oncemore. A prominent example of this is MKLeo tweeting about Captain Zack not deserving to be placed as high and beat "better players" then him due to him "abusing' Bayo's mechanics. This has caused quite a split on social media and has been asking people the question again if Bayonetta is a fair character in the game.

Here are some examples of negative stigma towards characters across the Smash games:

: An extremely popular character in Melee, Fox plagues the Top 8 brackets where many top players pick him up due to a multitude of mechanics he can abuse such as waveshining, short hop lasering, and being powerful and mobile at the same time. Many players believe that Fox can often carry players (although he does require much physical dexterity). A meme has even started where "20XX" will be the time where everyone plays Fox and that he will outclass the use of every other character.

: With Wobbling in Melee and infinite Chain Grabs in Brawl, the Ice Climbers receive much hate in both games due to the seemingly "unfair" punish game they possess in both games thanks to one mistake often leading to a stock if the Ice Climbers player does not mess up the pattern. Many players and viewers find the Ice Climbers un-enjoyably to watch in both games (more in Brawl) and feel that they deviate upon what a regular Smash bros character should be able to do.

: Regarded as the best character in Brawl by literally everyone, Metaknight has gotten quite a bit of negative backlash due to his ability to completely invalidate most of the Brawl cast due to his abundance of positive traits.. The official smash tournament community even implemented a hard ban on him worldwide for a while due to Top 8's always pertaining at least 5/8 Metaknights, as they believed this created an unhealthy game enthronement.

: People familiar with the Project M scene might know that 3.0 Mewtwo was a menace to face as well, with his tail attacks reaching literally half the stage and being able to perform many erratic movement options with Teleport into any attack, Mewtwo was quickly deemed too "OP" with many players discrediting players who used him during that time. He did receive major nerfs in 3.5, but he still remained to be a top/high tier character there after.

: Our most recent example is Bayonetta in Smash 4, where pre patch 1.16, she was able to perform "guaranteed" death comboes with the use of many of her combo starters and moves that linked perfectly with eachother. During the time pre-patch, many international communities such as Spain and Russia had even banned her as they felt she was "toxic" to the game. She did receive some major nerfs in 1.16, however Bayo players have adapted to the changes and are now making a resurgence once more, with many players still arguing she is too much, and that players who use her do not pertain the right amount of skill.

How do you guys feel about negative character stigma? Is it warranted? and should it be encouraged to develop the growth of the respective game's meta?

 

[Floor]

Hmmm the options don't quite support my views. Besides the wording, "not be tolerated" would not be something I would ever say about pretty much anything. I mean everyone tolerates things. Part of my concern/confusion revolvs around the word "Stigma" as it can be pretty vauge.

If we're talking about how we deal with people hating a character, then I'm on the side of "You can hate who you hate but don't expect any bans and don't expect anyone to jump on board with this massive bandwagon". If someone hates Bayonetta, fine by me, I don't really mind them hating her even though I'm fine with her.

But I also don't agree that Bayonetta is hurting the meta; plenty of characters can compete with her and there are many other characters that have their own "jank". I don't even think Bayo is top 5; but definitely top 10.

If we were to word the question this way

Is it okay to have a negative opinion about a character?

1. Yes
2. No

Then definitely 1. Yes would be my response. But the way the question is worded makes it sound like supporting 1. Yes means you support a ban, which I do not.

But I also don't want to throw the word "tolerated" around; anything should be tolerated.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I don't think she's bad enough to be ban worthy but if I had a nickel everytime I saw her on FG or on the online tourney mode from players thinking she'd be an easy character to win with i'd be rich. Tbf it takes some serious practice to do some of those tough combos.

 

[JayE]

Honestly I think the hate Bayo gets is valid. She has Witch Time, combos that can win her the match at anytime, I mean many people complain about many things. I don't like Luma's knockback, Diddy's down tilt, and fighting Sonic in general. If Bayo didn't have Witch Time, I would disilke her a lot less. I just think that move is too good and people can just throw it out in tight situations and win the game potentially.
Meta Knight being banned in Brawl makes more sense to me than Bayo being banned. Bayo has already been nerfed, and Meta Knight in Brawl had many overpowering techniques and moves that just didn't make it fair. Bayo is definitely good and the hate she gets makes sense, but she isn't braindead like pre-patch Diddy. Her combos take practice and she isn't just a character you can pick up and win with.

 

[Funbot28]

Honestly I think the hate Bayo gets is valid. She has Witch Time, combos that can win her the match at anytime, I mean many people complain about many things. I don't like Luma's knockback, Diddy's down tilt, and fighting Sonic in general. If Bayo didn't have Witch Time, I would disilke her a lot less. I just think that move is too good and people can just throw it out in tight situations and win the game potentially.
Meta Knight being banned in Brawl makes more sense to me than Bayo being banned. Bayo has already been nerfed, and Meta Knight in Brawl had many overpowering techniques and moves that just didn't make it fair. Bayo is definitely good and the hate she gets makes sense, but she isn't braindead like pre-patch Diddy. Her combos take practice and she isn't just a character you can pick up and win with.

Yeh Witch Time is probably the most discussed issue on the character, but people have also discussing her Fair trains to also be too good and her options in advantage to be too ubiquitous. I will leave my opinions later (cause I am personally nor for the hate towards her) but I wanted to adress other issues people had as well.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

The reason people dislike Bayonetta is because even aside her absurdly unfair combo potential, Bayonetta does not deserve to be a character in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U because is anything but Nintendo all stars, and really have no significant relevance to Nintendo at all. She doesn't mesh AT ALL with the rest of the Nintendo cast and the she only got in cause Platinum games probably pushed for her. The Smash Ballot was a fraud and there is absolutely no way she beat King K Rool. So that's why people dislike her, because she is a fraudulent character, both competitively, and status as a "requested" third party character.

 

[InfinitySoul]

One think I extremly dislikes about Bayo was that she was designed around SDI. She is balanced because of SDI.

That is not a good thing in my opinion. Because it puts a big wall you have to get over before you can really start learning the match up.

I have a problem with Rosalina ? I learn her moves and how to beat them. That's interesting
I have a problem with Bayonetta ? I need to grind SDI... ugh.

 

[ぱみゅ]

One think I extremly dislikes about Bayo was that she was designed around SDI. She is balanced because of SDI.

That is not a good thing in my opinion. Because it puts a big wall you have to get over before you can really start learning the match up.

I have a problem with Rosalina ? I learn her moves and how to beat them. That's interesting
I have a problem with Bayonetta ? I need to grind SDI... ugh.

That's... honestly a poor excuse. if you do not want to learn a skill then guess whose fault it is when your negligence comes back to bite you.



NOW, I will keep a very close eye to this thread, opinion and controversy have a tendency to go downhill quickly. Let's hope this is not the case.

 

[Rran]

The reason people dislike Bayonetta is because even aside her absurdly unfair combo potential, Bayonetta does not deserve to be a character in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U because is anything but Nintendo all stars, and really have no significant relevance to Nintendo at all. She doesn't mesh AT ALL with the rest of the Nintendo cast and the she only got in cause Platinum games probably pushed for her. The Smash Ballot was a fraud and there is absolutely no way she beat King K Rool. So that's why people dislike her, because she is a fraudulent character, both competitively, and status as a "requested" third party character.

W-w-whaaat?? Like, is this a joke post, or are you being totally sincere with your umbrage here??

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The reason people dislike Bayonetta is because even aside her absurdly unfair combo potential, Bayonetta does not deserve to be a character in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U because is anything but Nintendo all stars, and really have no significant relevance to Nintendo at all. She doesn't mesh AT ALL with the rest of the Nintendo cast and the she only got in cause Platinum games probably pushed for her. The Smash Ballot was a fraud and there is absolutely no way she beat King K Rool. So that's why people dislike her, because she is a fraudulent character, both competitively, and status as a "requested" third party character.

Oof, and I thought I didn't like her that much....

Nintendo put it bluntly 'as long as they were in a game on a Nintendo system they're eligible' Bayonetta had two games on the Wii U and the EU crowd adores her giving her the top voting rank. So your opinion of 'King K Rool should be in here not Bayonetta'! Doesn't belong in the post. The hate should be from actual gameplay saltiness not because you're sore because she won the smash ballot.

 

[Zerp]

Depends on what you mean, I feel it's a non-issue to dislike a character's strength in the metagame, but it's a problem if you actually go around harassing players for picking Bayonetta regardless of whether or not you think she's easy to play, takes no skill, insert generic insult here etc.
Also, I think you might want to replace with for examples, she has much worse of a negative stigma attached to her than Fox does.

 

[Funbot28]

Depends on what you mean, I feel it's a non-issue to dislike a character's strength in the metagame, but it's a problem if you actually go around harassing players for picking Bayonetta regardless of whether or not you think she's easy to play, takes no skill, insert generic insult here etc.
Also, I think you might want to replace with for examples, she has much worse of a negative stigma attached to her than Fox does.

Yeh this is exactly what's happening tho. I do agree that you don't have to like every character in the game, but people dis crediting other players due to their character picks is where toxic mindsets start to formulate imo.

 

[InfinitySoul]

That's... honestly a poor excuse. if you do not want to learn a skill then guess whose fault it is when your negligence comes back to bite you.

I am doing it because I want to beat Bayonetta. That is still frustrating.

And that's just my opinion, and probably something a lot of other scrubs share, in a thread which asks "Why people find Bayo frustrating".
But feel free to toss it away because "git gud, scrubs opinions don't count".


PS : I thing a lot of players dislike characters whose flaws aren't obvious, usually because unorthodox style. I think it is for this reason Sonic is also very disliked.

Second PS : From what I've seen, this is a list of thing that I found were annoying to players :
-Ease of use
-Promoting defensive plays (melee jiggs, Sonic)
-Having one or two main options that are "spammed" (mario's Usmash)
-Big rewards (ICs/pre patch bayo,)
- and of course, Power. People complained way less when Cloud wasn't top tier.

Until people SDI out of Bayo she is 1) and 4) because she doesn't have to mix her combo. Until they punish her landing she is 3)
And will probably always be 5)

 

[Crystanium]

I hate Bayonetta so much, I root for Cloud if there is a match between the two, and that's saying something, because I hate Cloud, too. My hatred for these characters starts from outside of Sm4sh. It just so happens that they're in the game, so my hatred for them will be placed there as well. However, I think MKLeo & Co. needs to stop johning. This is something I would expect to hear from newbies, not professionals.

I don't get to play Sm4sh as often as I'd like, since I lack a TV, Wii U, and Sm4sh. I only get to play for a few hours in a week. A recent match with a Bayonetta on FG only led me to continue to fight this player because I wanted to be able to learn how to address Bayonetta's attacks. I'm not good at breaking away from her combos, so I try to avoid it from starting in the first place. I was glad I was able to continue fighting this person for at least six matches. This is coming from a Samus main who isn't even well-known.

As the old saying goes, "Git gud!"

P.S. Hate on characters all you want. Just don't hate the person playing said characters. There is a difference.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think we need to be clear about something. It is perfectly expected to hate Brawl ICs, and should in fact be the default. Chaingrabs were one of the many cancers of Brawl, and the ICs were the absolute epitome of that particular one.

 

[Funbot28]

I think we need to be clear about something. It is perfectly expected to hate Brawl ICs, and should in fact be the default. Chaingrabs were one of the many cancers of Brawl, and the ICs were the absolute epitome of that particular one.

Thats a respectable opinion to have, but then the question arises if players who use Brawl ICies for example (and iirc 9B received much hate because of this), should they be subjected to negative criticism which is what is happening now with Bayo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Depends on what you mean, I feel it's a non-issue to dislike a character's strength in the metagame, but it's a problem if you actually go around harassing players for picking Bayonetta regardless of whether or not you think she's easy to play, takes no skill, insert generic insult here etc.
Also, I think you might want to replace with for examples, she has much worse of a negative stigma attached to her than Fox does.

Fox has a very much love hate relationship in melee, for everyone one who likes him there is someone who detests him.

Jiggs and floaties in general have a negative stigma to them in melee.

~

I don't have Bayo outside of her counter which I think is absurd in reward for even just sneezing on her.

If I were to list my most hated character in smash, it would be Ice Climbers only because I hate how I have to play against them. It's boring and dull because I have to platform camp them in brawl.

 

[Dre89]

The reason people dislike Bayonetta is because even aside her absurdly unfair combo potential, Bayonetta does not deserve to be a character in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U because is anything but Nintendo all stars, and really have no significant relevance to Nintendo at all. She doesn't mesh AT ALL with the rest of the Nintendo cast and the she only got in cause Platinum games probably pushed for her. The Smash Ballot was a fraud and there is absolutely no way she beat King K Rool. So that's why people dislike her, because she is a fraudulent character, both competitively, and status as a "requested" third party character.

Bayo was likely put in the game because she was the easiest/quickest of the popular ballot characters to make. The vast majority of her animations are pulled directly from her games. They just vaguely defined their criteria for inclusion as 'realisable' so they didn't have to go into specifics.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Character stigmas and hate, in my opinion, is only justifiable under three circumstances, and that is:

1. When said character is clearly the best in the game, and
2. Whatever character(s) invalidate(s) your main, or gives them a hard time, and
3. If a character (or a specific play style) is heavily dependent on one or two specific moves. (aka abusive)

1) is straightforward enough, only a select few fall under this category. 2) is character and match-up dependent. For example, Ness players hate Rosa because she just poops on his recovery. (Should realistically play Lucas for that MU) And 3) is the obnoxious stuff many people hate like Wobbling, Bayo combos and Witch Time, Spin Dash, Luma jank, Cloud's Limit, etc. These properties/strategies tend to give mid/low level players an extremely hard time and usually elicit this negative response.

Personally, even when justified, this signals a refusal to adapt, thus causing a negative loop. 1) Player gets beaten by obnoxious stuff --> 2) Player refuses to adapt and complains --> 3) Player gets beaten again by the same stuff --> 4) Player gets mad and complains louder, etc.

So, 1) is the most reasonable imo. The other two is mostly a refusal to adapt or a lack of time spent to figure out characters/strategies.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Most people though complain about characters because they're 2) or 3), some people are clueless as to who the best character is, not to mention certain strategies like proper DI or SDI are sometimes complicated making it harder to beat these characters. Some of the main problems I see people complain about and their causes include:
'Even when she misses I still get hit'-> Improper punish technique or misidentifying when to punish.
'They get their combos too quickly/I have no time to react!'-> Improper spacing or slow reaction time, I'm guilty of this in particular.
'I get countered every time I attack/ I can't get any attacks in!'-> Move spamming or predictable gameplay allowing for easy reads/counters or bad mobility on their character's part.
'(insert character here) Is OP!'-> The most common complaint, sometimes this complaint is justified but most of the time it isn't. There are weaknesses but the player might be too lazy/need more practice/overconfident in their own abilities.

NOW DON'T QUOTE ME ON ANY OF THIS!!! It's just what i've seen with either myself or some other players (and by some I mean three...maybe four tops) most of these are guesses but it's what i've heard flung around other areas.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Most people though complain about characters because they're 2) or 3), some people are clueless as to who the best character is, not to mention certain strategies like proper DI or SDI are sometimes complicated making it harder to beat these characters. Some of the main problems I see people complain about and their causes include:
'Even when she misses I still get hit'-> Improper punish technique or misidentifying when to punish.
'They get their combos too quickly/I have no time to react!'-> Improper spacing or slow reaction time, I'm guilty of this in particular.
'I get countered every time I attack/ I can't get any attacks in!'-> Move spamming or predictable gameplay allowing for easy reads/counters or bad mobility on their character's part.
'(insert character here) Is OP!'-> The most common complaint, sometimes this complaint is justified but most of the time it isn't. There are weaknesses but the player might be too lazy/need more practice/overconfident in their own abilities.

NOW DON'T QUOTE ME ON ANY OF THIS!!! It's just what i've seen with either myself or some other players (and by some I mean three...maybe four tops) most of these are guesses but it's what i've heard flung around other areas.

You're not the only one to hear those complaints. I've heard most of those in 8-player casual games. They are super fun but it brings out the worst in some people and sometimes ruins the experience. Some characters are easier to abuse (especially with lower level players, in 8 player no less) and counters aren't readily known, so they cause frustration more often than not.

 

[Murlough]

I think Bayo is the best character in the game but this talk of banning her? Learn the **** matchup.

The simple fact is she isn't nearly as polarizing as Brawl Meta Knight. If Meta Knight was unbanned then there is no reason to ban an inferior character in a much more balanced game.

If you refuse to learn a matchup then it is your fault that you lost. Heck, if you lose period it is your fault. Especially in a game where everyone has the same tools to work with to achieve victory (referring to players).

Also I'm pretty sure Spain never banned Bayonetta. From what I remember her banning was discussed but no action was ever made before the internet caught wind of it and blew it up.

 

[Zerp]

Doesn't have anything to do with the topic but this thread has a lot of purple text for some reason.

Also I'm pretty sure Spain never banned Bayonetta. From what I remember her banning was discussed but no action was ever made before the internet caught wind of it and blew it up.

About the ban, you're right that Spain did not ever get to banning her as a whole, although, many regional scenes in Spain did actually ban her (I'm assuming only temporarily):

Also, before anyone brings it up, the Russian scene did ban her as well, but it really wasn't that big of a deal and shouldn't be treated as a major scene banning the character.

 

[mountain_tiger]

As someone who dabbles with Bayonetta myself, I do find her somewhat irritating to fight against... but not for the reasons most people seem to.

Her combo game doesn't bother me. After all, many of the top tier characters have deadly combo games - Fox, Sheik, Mario etc., and given that you have at least some element of control over it, due to DI and SDI, I don't really mind.

What bothers me far more is the way that you absolutely cannot challenge her off-stage or on the ledge. When she's recovering, she just zips off here, there and everywhere until she safely reaches the ledge, after which she has the best ledge options in the game at her disposal, so she gets back to neutral for free. You'd be hard-pressed to even tack on 5% damage before she's back and ready to fight.

That said, I learn to deal with that and move on, and absolutely do not begrudge anyone using her (or any other character).

Really though, any community which is able to weather the storm that is Brawl Meta Knight should surely have relatively little issue with any character in SSB4. Lest we forget...

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

I think Bayo is the best character in the game but this talk of banning her? Learn the **** matchup.

The simple fact is she isn't nearly as polarizing as Brawl Meta Knight. If Meta Knight was unbanned then there is no reason to ban an inferior character in a much more balanced game.

If you refuse to learn a matchup then it is your fault that you lost. Heck, if you lose period it is your fault. Especially in a game where everyone has the same tools to work with to achieve victory (referring to players).

Also I'm pretty sure Spain never banned Bayonetta. From what I remember her banning was discussed but no action was ever made before the internet caught wind of it and blew it up.

I definitely agree that Bayo doesn't need a ban. She isn't close to Brawl Meta Knight, who dominated Top 8s. However, I would point out that a failure to ban Brawl MK was one of the things that contributed to the death of that game, according to what I've heard and read. If players seem to be jumping the gun about Bayo, it might be a consequence of the Brawl community being too gun-shy the last time around. Regardless, she'd have to be half of every top 8 and win every event before we even start having that discussion.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm so we're in a consensus that 'yeah bayo is bad but she's not ban-worthy bad'. I think people would rather she be nerfed (mountain_tiger already explained her frustrating off-stage game) and we discussed this on the competitive page so here's an interesting question. We all agree she shouldn't be banned....but should she be NERFED?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hrmm so we're in a consensus that 'yeah bayo is bad but she's not ban-worthy bad'. I think people would rather she be nerfed (mountain_tiger already explained her frustrating off-stage game) and we discussed this on the competitive page so here's an interesting question. We all agree she shouldn't be banned....but should she be NERFED?

This may sound like a troll suggestion, but I honestly think this one change would balance out Bayonetta pretty well.

Specifically, I believe that Witch Twist and After Burner Kick should not refresh on hit. In layman's terms, if she's already used her allotment of side Bs and up Bs, and then you land a hit, she won't get them back unless she grabs the ledge or lands on the stage - if she still had her second jump on her, she'd still be free to use that and obtain another up B, but otherwise no more third jumps.

What this would mean in practical terms (hopefully) is:

a) Her offstage disadvantage state would be a tad less absurdly good. It would still be tough to land a hit on her, as already mentioned, but if you did land it, it would be far more likely to lead to an offstage death, rather than the current state where she simply shrugs and uses her now replenished side B and up B to return to the stage anyway...

b) It would up the risk on her current combo game. Now, I know I mentioned not minding Bayonetta's combo game too much, as the combos themselves can often be escaped (though admittedly this is enormously dependent on who she's fighting against), but it can't be denied that she gets an awful lot of opportunities to get said combos started. Imagine, with the proposed change above, that she goes for a combo involving up B, double side B and her double jump... only for you to SDI at just the right time and Bair her offstage, with at most one third jump at her disposal... Long story short, they'd have to be slightly more careful about where they attempt that combo, and who they attempt it against...

It feels to me like Bayonetta is meant to be something of a glass cannon character, but one with just slightly too much emphasis on the 'cannon' and not enough on the 'glass'. Mewtwo is a bit like this too, but he's 10 whole units lighter than Bayonetta is (74 vs 84), so he very much has that vulnerability that a glass cannon character should have to keep them in check. Bayonetta... doesn't really have that.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

This may sound like a troll suggestion, but I honestly think this one change would balance out Bayonetta pretty well.

Specifically, I believe that Witch Twist and After Burner Kick should not refresh on hit. In layman's terms, if she's already used her allotment of side Bs and up Bs, and then you land a hit, she won't get them back unless she grabs the ledge or lands on the stage - if she still had her second jump on her, she'd still be free to use that and obtain another up B, but otherwise no more third jumps.

What this would mean in practical terms (hopefully) is:

a) Her offstage disadvantage state would be a tad less absurdly good. It would still be tough to land a hit on her, as already mentioned, but if you did land it, it would be far more likely to lead to an offstage death, rather than the current state where she simply shrugs and uses her now replenished side B and up B to return to the stage anyway...

b) It would up the risk on her current combo game. Now, I know I mentioned not minding Bayonetta's combo game too much, as the combos themselves can often be escaped (though admittedly this is enormously dependent on who she's fighting against), but it can't be denied that she gets an awful lot of opportunities to get said combos started. Imagine, with the proposed change above, that she goes for a combo involving up B, double side B and her double jump... only for you to SDI at just the right time and Bair her offstage, with at most one third jump at her disposal... Long story short, they'd have to be slightly more careful about where they attempt that combo, and who they attempt it against...

It feels to me like Bayonetta is meant to be something of a glass cannon character, but one with just slightly too much emphasis on the 'cannon' and not enough on the 'glass'. Mewtwo is a bit like this too, but he's 10 whole units lighter than Bayonetta is (74 vs 84), so he very much has that vulnerability that a glass cannon character should have to keep them in check. Bayonetta... doesn't really have that.

I didn't mean for that to be a trolling post. I was dead serious because the general consensus was 'yeah she shouldn't be banned she's not that bad but she's still so strong she's a royal pain!' That's why I suggested she get minor nerfs. Back on the competitive forum someone made some nice suggestions for some balanced nerfs that wouldn't gut the character. I think your suggestions are awesome too.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Her neutral and advantage don't bother me in the least bit.

It's her recovery and disadvantage that bothers me.

If they could just reduce the hitbox sizes of Up B and the Side Bs..................

Lord

 

[BSP]

OP, I think a good bit of the Bayonetta hate is warranted. While the character isn't broken since after the patch, her design
is still pretty infuriating. Here's what I don't like:

1) Witch Time

Counters are ok. Giving a character one throws an interesting dynamic into the match so that you can't just press buttons as much as you want to. However, witch time is essentially a special counter that breaks the mold most counters in the series have established. It's not the only one to do so, but it does so in combination which is why it's so overbearing.

a) Most counters take into account the damage of the move that's triggering them.

If I'm fighting Ike and I'm expecting him to be counter happy, I can test the waters with weaker attacks. If I get countered, it's not the end of the world. If I'm gutsy and my smash attack gets countered, fair. I took and big risk and got punished
hard for it.

If I get witch timed , I'm getting wrecked regardless of what type of attack used to trigger it. You're probably eating 40%+ juggle situation if you're lucky, or death if you're not.


b) Most counters can't control which direction the victim will be launched.

If I'm juggling Ike on the left side of the stage and I'm to his right, I can be a bit riskier with my attacks because I can mitigate his counter's risk/reward with my positioning.

If I get WTimed, Bayonetta gets to choose the best way to launch me. Witch time isn't the only counter that breaks this mold, but it's certainly the most powerful in this respect since Bayonetta gets to do whatever she wants to you.

If witch time took into account the % of the move used to trigger it and then used that metric to determine the duration of slowdown, I'd be fine with it. Heck, I'd be fine if they buffed the recovery time of the move after a successful counter if they implemented the previously discussed change.

WTime's power alone forces you to play a certain way against Bayo. As competitors we need to suck it up and deal with it, but it's still not enjoyable. Yes, I'm aware that not every MU is enjoyable, but I definitely don't respect any character nearly as much as I have to respect Bayo.

2)Witch Twist being F4

Quote from the Nintendo direct video revealing Bayonetta:

"However, her combos are a bit slow to start..."

The quote is a bit out of context and was referring to her Ftilt and jab combos, but it's not hard to see that this was meant to apply to Bayo in general...maybe. Either way, her fastest normal moves are F7, which is pretty slow. Why on earth does witch twist, which converts into Bayonetta's extended combos, begin on F4? The fastest aerial hitboxes in the game baring items are F3, and WTwist is 1 frame behind that. This is the biggest failure of her design to me and almost as infuriating as much as witch time. This enables her to be extremely dangerous even at close range because of the threat of WTwist converting into whatever.

3) Landing Lag Bypass Methods

Bayo is supposed to be careful about using excessive amounts of special moves in the air since she'll have more landing lag when she does hit the ground again. There's a glaring workaround to this though: go to the ledge! Normally I would say this is ok because she gives up all stage control when she does this, but considering how safe her ledge game and recovery in general are I'm not certain this is enough punishment for using multiple specials in the air. Very few characters can safely pressure her offstage while retaining a decent risk:reward ratio.

Those are the biggest 3 I can think of right now, along with what mountain tiger said about her being extremely difficult to edge guard her.

All of that said, Bayonetta is not broken and arguably not even the best character in the game. Still, there are certain aspects that are fine to complain about. Yes we can adapt and develop answers as many top players have, but it's still there.