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The attitude towards this game.

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Big-Cat

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Since this game’s release, I’ve been seeing mixed opinions on this game, as to be expected. It’s a new game after all. However, some of its criticism has been really getting on my nerves.

Rolls are too good.

No, they’re not. If you’re having a problem countering rolls, learn to read them. Rolls are still punishable, even if the window is smaller than it has been in the past. Meanwhile, I see people requesting these to be patched up later. How about you adapt instead of asking for nerfs. A more logical nerf request would be Diddy, and he’s most definitely manageable.

One proposal I had seen was that after X amount of rolls, you can’t roll or something like that. I’ve seen something like this in Bayonetta, but I don’t think it’d work for Smash. The rewards for rolling in Smash are not that big most of the time UNLESS you use it to evade a read attack and you whiff punish. Bayonetta’s dodge, in comparison, has a much larger reward for successfully dodging attacks so discouraging spamming there is a good idea.

Approaching is risky.

Well no **** it’s risky. Any game will have some element of risk in anything you do. If you don’t, the game is imbalanced as one option trumps all the others (unless it’s supposed to be like that). You have to learn to commit and determine what the best option for the current situation is. You could be wrong. That’s okay. If you can make a mistake in approaching, so can your opponent. Learn your spacing and reading. Develop some patience. Walking is seriously underrated. You have the most control there.

When I read some posts, I see things about people running to the other side of the stage and getting annoyed by it. That’s your problem really. If they’re running to the edge of the stage to get away from you, that’s where you go in and close their space. You’re closer to the center, you’re the one at the advantage.

Finally, stages are smaller in this game than they have ever been. The distance between the edges of Final Destination is much smaller than before.

Aerials are laggy.

This one annoys me to no end. People, this is not Melee nor will it ever be Melee. Stop trying to go all aerials or even trying to vouch for that Smooth Landing badge. Aerials were very dominant in the past to the point that it seems as if strong aerials was THE prerequisite to being considered good.

L-Canceling just developed this idea that aerial approaches are the best. Play any other game and pull that. You will get murdered. Yes, I know Smash is different from other fighting games, but that doesn’t justify making the game super aerial dominant. If you want that, I hear Arcana Heart’s not a bad idea. Smash, IMO, should have a balance between aerial and ground combat, and I think Smash 4 has been the closest to achieving this. You’re just gonna have to learn to mix up your attacks.

I think trying to fix this “problem” with Smooth Landing is a testament to the attitude to this game. If it’s not Melee, it’s trash. I’ll be blunt. People just don’t want to adapt to something different.

Lack of movement options.

Another pet peeve of mine. I get the appeal of dash dancing, but we can live without it, same for wavedashing. I know that for a lot of people, this is about safety in approaching and mixing up. Mixing up with running, walking, and jumping is actually quite adequate. You just gotta be creative. I know that’s not saying much, but it’s true. When it comes to safety, this goes back to what I said about risk. It’s going to be there. Accept it.

That’s my thoughts for now. I needed to get this out of my system.
 
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Dr.Faust

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Preach my friend. I'm not saying the game is perfect or that it needs to be fixed but if your looking for another melee then stop looking. Just like the transition from sf3 to sf4 or mvc2 to mvc3(I hate marvel, both of them), will take some time people need to stop looking at it as its past version and look at the game as a new game.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Here's the thing I never got about people wanting to change it to be specifically like something

The real problem all roots back to adaptability. The game needs time to adapt (Time to find out a ruleset, tier lists, matchup lists, etc) and any who think otherwise are insane - There's way too many features *not* to test. With 4v4, Custom moves, Custom abilities, a new list of stages, and much more, we should start out being experimental; not getting ready to bring the ban hammer. You know, like Melee did. I just hate this eagerness around that's been built up as if it's standard to immediately be Melee - Guy's, Melee's not going anywhere and neither are the other Smash games. Let Smash 4 grow at it's own pace.

And yet, this applies to player mentality as well. We need to be willing as a whole not only to experiment and learn more about the game from a technical standpoint but also from a read/mindgame/player level standpoint. If we just keep using the same tactics, the scene will never evolve. Well, okay, it may evolve, but not to it's full potential.

also diddy kong's uair is the only real thing that's super broken

Great rant and it needed to be said.
 
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Gatoray

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Preach my friend. I'm not saying the game is perfect or that it needs to be fixed but if your looking for another melee then stop looking. Just like the transition from sf3 to sf4 or mvc2 to mvc3(I hate marvel, both of them), will take some time people need to stop looking at it as its past version and look at the game as a new game.
I agree with mostly everything in the main post, so don't take this as an attack or anything, but I think the reason people are so upset about the non-Melee Smash games is because they're so different from Melee in terms of fluidity, mechanics, and the intended changes to the engine forcing the pace of the game to slow down is why people don't consider the transition between the games to be the same as the transition between different versions of SF or MvC. Honestly, I don't think we should expect people to leave Melee/PM and instantly enjoy Smash 4 just because it's a new game; the things that make Melee so enjoyable to Melee players are just not there and quite frankly will never be there again.

That being said, Melee/PM players with closed minds that complain about the game not being Melee/PM just need to leave and go back to playing their game. And it's possible to still enjoy competitive Melee/PM and Smash 4, I'm living proof of that. I just wish more people would have an open mind about a new game without feeling like they have to give up their old game (certain Esports events should take this into consideration please...).
 

Dr.Faust

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I agree with mostly everything in the main post, so don't take this as an attack or anything, but I think the reason people are so upset about the non-Melee Smash games is because they're so different from Melee in terms of fluidity, mechanics, and the intended changes to the engine forcing the pace of the game to slow down is why people don't consider the transition between the games to be the same as the transition between different versions of SF or MvC. Honestly, I don't think we should expect people to leave Melee/PM and instantly enjoy Smash 4 just because it's a new game; the things that make Melee so enjoyable to Melee players are just not there and quite frankly will never be there again.

That being said, Melee/PM players with closed minds that complain about the game not being Melee/PM just need to leave and go back to playing their game. And it's possible to still enjoy competitive Melee/PM and Smash 4, I'm living proof of that. I just wish more people would have an open mind about a new game without feeling like they have to give up their old game (certain Esports events should take this into consideration please...).
I don't want the ssbm/pm players to leave i just don't want them to look at it as ssbm or pm. Its not those games. Its ssb4. plane and simple
 

Falconv1.0

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"Hey you guys should just like this game for no reason" the thread?

You guys are so amazingly similar to the Brawl community. It's like using a time machine! Have fun with that sinking ship!
 

Jabejazz

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It's more of a "if you intend to play this game with the mindset that it'll be similar to Melee, then play Melee", the thread.
 

Falconv1.0

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It's more of a "if you intend to play this game with the mindset that it'll be similar to Melee, then play Melee", the thread.
He gives no reasons that we should play this game at all. He just makes these weak arguments that these problems the game has doesn't ruin the game. I don't need Smash to do what Melee did, but when it's the slowest most nothing filled glitchy ****ing fighter I've seen, there's a problem. The game feels like a bad Brawl mod.

People will try to compare its slow bull**** to a traditional fighter. I call these people "people who have never actually played a fighter".
 

Karthage

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On approaching being unsafe:
It is a problem. It's a HUGE problem. When the person who acts first is at a tremendous disadvantage, you end up with a stale, boring, defensive game. When shields, rolls, spot dodges, and just hitting an approaching target is as safe as it is in this game, players are going to be very, very reluctant to ever throw out an attack that isn't a punish.

And it's only going to get worse. We are in the infant stages of this game. I was watching a tournament yesterday and could already see glimpses of the future watching things like diddy's side B get more consistently punished by smashes. People are going to get more and more used to seeing offensive options, and the game is going to get even more defensive than it already is.

Sure, it's still technically a competitive game at that point, you can host tournaments and everything. But it won't be a FUN competitive game.

On aerials being laggy and lack of movement options:
The game is dull as paint when your approach options are limited by laggy aerials and no movement abilities.

In melee, you can move towards your opponent and retain your full toolbox, along with your aerials not being useless against a grounded opponent. This leads to fun, agressive gameplay.

In smash, if you try and aggressively get near your opponent, all of your options are heavily punishable and you will lose almost every time. The game promotes a very slow, boring, defensive style, hit confirming everything off of projectiles if possible, avoiding committing to a punishable action as much as possible.


The complaints stem from the gameplay not being what people want. I want a fast aggressive game with lots of ways for the better player to come out ahead.

This game does not deliver.
 

Big-Cat

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The funny thing is that post does have some merit to it.

Like I said, like going back in tiiime!

Edit-Godlike job ignoring all the other posts actually debating your points btw.
I actually missed those posts. I didn't refresh to see your post after getting out of a shower. Unfortunately, I don't have much time at the moment so I'll just respond to your earlier post.

People will try to compare its slow bull**** to a traditional fighter. I call these people "people who have never actually played a fighter".
Except I'm coming from games like SF4, Tag 2, KOF, Virtua Fighter, etc. IMO, it plays more like a fighting game than previous entries in the Smash series while still retaining the core Smash aspect.
 

Jabejazz

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On approaching being unsafe:
It is a problem. It's a HUGE problem. When the person who acts first is at a tremendous disadvantage, you end up with a stale, boring, defensive game. When shields, rolls, spot dodges, and just hitting an approaching target is as safe as it is in this game, players are going to be very, very reluctant to ever throw out an attack that isn't a punish.

And it's only going to get worse. We are in the infant stages of this game. I was watching a tournament yesterday and could already see glimpses of the future watching things like diddy's side B get more consistently punished by smashes. People are going to get more and more used to seeing offensive options, and the game is going to get even more defensive than it already is.

Sure, it's still technically a competitive game at that point, you can host tournaments and everything. But it won't be a FUN competitive game.
Defense, even in Melee, unless you are a spacie/Peach, is always the better option.
 
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Falconv1.0

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Except I'm coming from games like SF4, Tag 2, KOF, Virtua Fighter, etc. IMO, it plays more like a fighting game than previous entries in the Smash series while still retaining the core Smash aspect.
None of those fighters were anywhere nearly as hilariously slow and campy as Smash 4 was, not on day 1, not now.

I love you.
 

MajinSweet

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"IMO, it plays more like a fighting game than previous entries in the Smash series while still retaining the core Smash aspect."

Holy ****. This is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've read in a while. I'm sorry, I don't have anything of substance to add. Wow, made my day. lool
 

madworlder

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I can vouch for Arcana Heart being a great game to play if you want strong jumping moves. I'm coming to Smash from that game. There's nothing wrong with Smash For as it is, it just needs to be explored more.
 

guedes the brawler

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about rolls, i do think it's a problem because, in past games? i could handle rolls on reaction: i see they rolling and punish, without ever thinking "oh, they will roll in 5 second, better plan what i'll do in 5 seconds".

in this game? there are moments that i KNOW they will roll behind me and try to attack and they still can shield my punish. but that's likely me sucking, i just think this was a very unnecessary change
 

Jellyfish4102

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On approaching being unsafe:
It is a problem. It's a HUGE problem. When the person who acts first is at a tremendous disadvantage, you end up with a stale, boring, defensive game. When shields, rolls, spot dodges, and just hitting an approaching target is as safe as it is in this game, players are going to be very, very reluctant to ever throw out an attack that isn't a punish.

And it's only going to get worse. We are in the infant stages of this game. I was watching a tournament yesterday and could already see glimpses of the future watching things like diddy's side B get more consistently punished by smashes. People are going to get more and more used to seeing offensive options, and the game is going to get even more defensive than it already is.

Sure, it's still technically a competitive game at that point, you can host tournaments and everything. But it won't be a FUN competitive game.

On aerials being laggy and lack of movement options:
The game is dull as paint when your approach options are limited by laggy aerials and no movement abilities.

In melee, you can move towards your opponent and retain your full toolbox, along with your aerials not being useless against a grounded opponent. This leads to fun, agressive gameplay.

In smash, if you try and aggressively get near your opponent, all of your options are heavily punishable and you will lose almost every time. The game promotes a very slow, boring, defensive style, hit confirming everything off of projectiles if possible, avoiding committing to a punishable action as much as possible.


The complaints stem from the gameplay not being what people want. I want a fast aggressive game with lots of ways for the better player to come out ahead.

This game does not deliver.
This is exactly what this thread is about. If you like Melee a thousand times more than Smash 4 then go and enjoy Melee. Stop harassing the people who like Smash 4 the most.

And for the love of God, stop acting like your opinion is fact.
 

DavemanCozy

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I agree rolls aren't OP, but I think it's worth considering that some rolls are pretty damn good. There are characters with as little as 15 frame rolls vs characters who have 30 frame rolls. That's a bit ridiculous. Also, some characters only have 1 or 2 moves that last less than 15 frames, and said moves are usually too weak to be safe against against other options (like shields, stronger moves, etc).

Although, I would argue that it's better to give some of these characters faster options rather than nerfing rolls.
 

Terotrous

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Aerials are laggy.

This one annoys me to no end. People, this is not Melee nor will it ever be Melee. Stop trying to go all aerials or even trying to vouch for that Smooth Landing badge. Aerials were very dominant in the past to the point that it seems as if strong aerials was THE prerequisite to being considered good.

L-Canceling just developed this idea that aerial approaches are the best. Play any other game and pull that. You will get murdered. Yes, I know Smash is different from other fighting games, but that doesn’t justify making the game super aerial dominant. If you want that, I hear Arcana Heart’s not a bad idea. Smash, IMO, should have a balance between aerial and ground combat, and I think Smash 4 has been the closest to achieving this. You’re just gonna have to learn to mix up your attacks.

I think trying to fix this “problem” with Smooth Landing is a testament to the attitude to this game. If it’s not Melee, it’s trash. I’ll be blunt. People just don’t want to adapt to something different.
I just want to say that it would be hard for me to agree more strongly with this part. Landing lag is in the game for a reason, it's so some attacks are safe to use air to ground and others are less safe. This is one of the many balancing tools the developers use to balance the game, remove it and you'll start seeing some problems with game balance.

Pretty much every character has at least one aerial that's fairly safe (a few didn't, but they generally got them in 1.0.4), and grounded approaches are more viable this time too. We don't need to have every aerial be lagless to have functional offense.
 

Karthage

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This is exactly what this thread is about. If you like Melee a thousand times more than Smash 4 then go and enjoy Melee. Stop harassing the people who like Smash 4 the most.

And for the love of God, stop acting like your opinion is fact.
How dare I come into a discussion thread and discuss things. Stop elevating the game beyond criticism, it's not healthy.

I just want to say that it would be hard for me to agree more strongly with this part. Landing lag is in the game for a reason, it's so some attacks are safe to use air to ground and others are less safe. This is one of the many balancing tools the developers use to balance the game, remove it and you'll start seeing some problems with game balance.

Pretty much every character has at least one aerial that's fairly safe (a few didn't, but they generally got them in 1.0.4), and grounded approaches are more viable this time too. We don't need to have every aerial be lagless to have functional offense.
Ground approaches are not "more viable" just because air approaches suck. They just changed the game so that ALL approaching sucks.
 

Epok

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You're not wrong in feeling the way you do about the game. But just let it be known this is just a rant thread.

I like the game the game, but just because people think about it critically or are finding ways to develop how they want to play it isn't wrong either.
 

Prawn

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Personally, if the meta devolves into what we saw happening in brawl, I would be all for allowing one or limited equipment to maybe change the game a bit. There seems to be a few more strings and possibilities for follow ups in this game compared to brawl but I'm not sure it it's necessarily enough.
 

Jellyfish4102

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How dare I come into a discussion thread and discuss things. Stop elevating the game beyond criticism, it's not healthy.
If you want to write a review of the game I'd encourage you to do so. However its not ok to go into random threads and bad mouth the game to its fans. It just causes division.
 

SaltyKracka

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If you want to write a review of the game I'd encourage you to do so. However its not ok to go into random threads and bad mouth the game to its fans. It just causes division.
I'm so so sorry your precious fee-fees were hurt by the big bad poster coming into the discussion topic about the game and attitudes toward it and actually discussing the game. Here, have a hug.
 

Prawn

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If you want to write a review of the game I'd encourage you to do so. However its not ok to go into random threads and bad mouth the game to its fans. It just causes division.
The division is there regardless, stop being sensitive. Unless it's your first time on the internet you should have realized already that people are *****.


I like this game a lot but it has flaws and people are going to feel strongly one way or the other and troll/make their points in a negative way
 
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pimpimjim

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"IMO, it plays more like a fighting game than previous entries in the Smash series while still retaining the core Smash aspect."

Holy ****. This is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've read in a while. I'm sorry, I don't have anything of substance to add. Wow, made my day. lool
hilarious because he might be right?
 

Nobie

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I think the issue with some players is that they think of approaching as this binary concept, where you're either approaching or not approaching, and approaching specifically means charging in with an attack. From what I've seen in this thread, there are quite a few who think this way, that approach means offense means getting up in someone's face and throwing attacks out until something sticks. Instead, offense, defense, approaching, and retreating are probably better thought of as being on a spectrum where your actions can be a little bit of both. This is where feints and the like come into play.

Here's an example: As Mega Man, I will stand there and fire three normal A shots at the opponent knowing that they can be shielded. Right afterwards, I'll shoot again, but this time firing only one shot because Mega Man's recovery is a bit quicker if you only throw out one. If the opponent tries to take advantage of me assuming that I would've fired three shots and would have greater recovery time as a result, then I can do something like slide in to punish. Was I being "defensive" by standing there and shooting, or was it a type of "aggression" that relied on conditioning the opponent a bit? I didn't do any initial damage but the point wasn't to land an initial hit anyway (though it's not bad if that does happen).

Or for something simpler: I run at the opponent and shield. Is that an approach or not? Is it offense or defense? Is there an interesting counterplay to running and shielding that can be appreciated by players and viewers alike?
 
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Prawn

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What game does smash4 resemble exactly? It definitely isn't tekken or SF4 and those are the only two I play...maybe if you only counted the gameplay from sub 40 percent
 

Mykelism

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I think the hate toward the game is usually from people who have invested an insane amount of time into a previous smash game and feel they can't win anymore. Once they see that they'd have to actually reinvest to get good at this game, they bash it.
 

MasterTK

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Halo 4 was super bad and and online was dead a month after release date. The lates Cods has some serious flaws and people are going back to earlier ones. Windows 8 was different and sucked too, so people stayed on Windows 7.

But it doesn't matter what Nintendo do, people will always defend them and tell us to adapt. Mario Part 9 is as competitive as this one.
 

Big-Cat

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None of those fighters were anywhere nearly as hilariously slow and campy as Smash 4 was, not on day 1, not now.

I love you.
I love you too.

Hadouken, hadouken, hadouken...
Tiger shot, tiger shot, tiger shot...
 
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Nobie

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Here let me help you,

Sonic boom, sonic boom, sonic boom...

FLASH KICK!
For further reference, a Super Turbo match between Guile and Ryu. Granted, one thing that changes the offense/defense dynamic in Street Fighter is the fact that special attacks do chip damage.

Better yet, Sagat vs. Sagat.
 
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Yoshi Kirishima

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The funny thing is that post does have some merit to it.

Like I said, like going back in tiiime!

Edit-Godlike job ignoring all the other posts actually debating your points btw.
You are so butthurt.

Godlike job ignoring all his points and not actually addressing anything. Funny, you are just like all the melee elitists! Have fun with your old ship!

I'm sorry is there a rule that you have to respond to every single post? A rule that the next time you post in your own thread you have to also reply to every other post? I must have missed that.
 
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Quillion

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Pivots, people.

You can do everything but your jab out of them. Use those.
 
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