The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

[Liquid Entropy]

Oh man, all ya'll be some crazy bi+ches, you know
that?

That's a real cute comment snor snor.

When I was a little john, yah, your god had me
under his guise and ****. Then, over time, I
realized I was TALKING TO MY SELF!!!!.

Here's da crazy thing, you anal *****es:
This topic is supposed to be balls out why do you
believe what you do believe, not why don't you
listen to the other person. That's like a slow
moving contest, its very hard to win, mostly cause
your not really racing, your just trying to do
less than the other person.

Now, more likely than not, most people aren't
going to read so far as this setence, and will
post whatever the **** they feel like, and I'm not
entirely sure I can blame them.

I'm just asking, why bother?

I mean, I seriously doubt any of you crazy
christians had any plans of actually asking myself
or any other non-zealot what I feel, or why.

All I hear is "god exists, go to this website"
Or the like.

Frankly margret, I don't give a d@mn.

BL came in here all up in this house asking for
reasons people believe in what they do. I tried
to appease that request.

I suppose the point is that why don't you just
shut your pie hole if you can't say why you
believe something. Particularly when someone asks
for why you believe what you believe in.

 

[SnorSnor]

I gave the web site to ask for more information. . .

But I know this topic has gone way off-topic. I saw things here that needed some correcting. I don't think it's right to leave people hanging, do you? I showed them information and experiences about things to show they weren't right about something.

But I am sorry about this all going off-topic, I just didn't want to have people believing false statements about Christians and our faith in Jesus Christ.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Liquid Entropy]

You just can't let go, can you snorsnor.

March on christian soldier, march on.

 

[SnorSnor]

Originally posted by Liquid Entropy:
<strong>You just can't let go, can you snorsnor.

March on christian soldier, march on.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What did I do wrong here? I'm just trying to help people, since they're some misguided about Christianity and the people who follow Jesus and why God does certain things.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Kokichi]

What did I do wrong here? I'm just trying to help people, since they're some misguided about Christianity and the people who follow Jesus and why God does certain things. <hr></blockquote>

^That's what you did wrong. BL wanted to know why we think they way we do; we said it, you tried to prove us wrong, hense, you made this yet another religious discussion, instead of keeping it plain and simple. More people (including myself) felt that we needed to retailiate, which we shouldn't have.

Here are some quotes which I like:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Jesus, Matthew 10:34 <hr></blockquote>

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
<hr></blockquote>

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute." - John F. Kennedy <hr></blockquote>

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." - Carl Sagan <hr></blockquote>

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov <hr></blockquote>

"Religion is all bunk." - Thomas Edison <hr></blockquote>

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!" - George Carlin <hr></blockquote>

"Faith is an excuse for thinking" - Kokichi <hr></blockquote>

 

[androza]

Snorsnor, have you ever wondered how many people have died in the name of Christianity? It was only recently that Christianity helped mankind, and thats not even very much. Spanish missionaries converted indians under pain of death, same thing happened in Africa. Then, there was the inquisition, the witch hunts(which in Europe were far worse) and the crusades, just to name a few. And who has Christianity saved? A few poor people, maybe helped some people in Africa? Yea, thats REAL equal.

 

[Kokichi]

Religion (mostly christianity) is the #1 cause of death since the Gregorian calender. The holy wars, Osama, Hitler, the Templars, Jerusalem, the killing where thousands of people were brought to a secluded place and forced to drink Coolaid with poison in it so they would go to heaven, otherwise they would be shot to death with automatics by the gaurds so there was no living survivors, etc. Drugs still have a ways to go before they reach the death count of Xianity.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Originally posted by SnorSnor:
<strong>Aren't the mormons the one who think that Jesus Christ and the devil are brothers? and that they also believe one day, they'll be a "god" of their own planet with their families? I don't know exactly if mormons are Christian or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What is wrong with you? Have you no shame to make fun of your Christian brothers? The church of Christ for latter day saints, believes nothing of the sort! The fact that you use this misinformation to explain why you can't answer a question appalls me! Yes, Mormons are Christians too. But they believe in the words of saints of the present (or near present, or whatever you call a hundred years ago to be.) I have Mormon friends that would weep at your ignorance. You stupid Christians can't even get along together, what do you expect to gain by bringing us into your "holy light" when you can't even work out which holy light is the right one? Go to a Mormon church and learn their views, see in Christ what they see in Christ. Don't make fun of them, because they believe differently.

 

[SnorSnor]

I'm sorry that I have said some wrong things about them, but I've only said what I've heard before from some other Christians who has read what Mormons believe.

I never claimed to be a "holy light" either, and I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to come off as someone with a "holier than thou attitude."

Again, sorry My intention wasn't ever to start any fights, or arguments, or even debates. I just saw some things that wern't right, so I wanted to post to tell them what was the real thing. So, sorry if you got this intention on why I even posted in here.

But I'll leave this topic to you guys now

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
<strong>y I always try to disprove Christianity:

I believe that part of the purpose of life is to expand our knowledge of the world we live in. Christianity gets in the way of that.
I also believe the purpose of life is to enjoy it. We only get one. Christians believe a lot of pleasurable things are sins. This withholds them from enjoying their lives. Now normally this wouldn't be so bad; if they want to mess up their lives I won't stop them. But since Christians insist on forcing their beliefs upon the rest of us, I need to stop them. Christians want to regulate what I can do in my bedroom. **** them. It's not their prerogative to dictate that sort of thing.

Another problem: Religion is a tool to control the weakminded. Could Hitler, Osama, etc have led the masses as easily without religion to help their cause? No. It's not just Christianity that I am opposed to, it is faith in general. Faith is like a disease of the mind.

So my reasons are pretty simple. Christians want to help people by letting them have an enjoyable afterlife. I want people to have an enjoyable life. Because this is it. There is no afterlife. It just hurts me to see so many people waste the only lives they get in vain hopes for an afterlife that will never come. Also, as an intellectual person, I just simply can't stand to see all the ignorance religion breeds.

-B</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think I could have said that any better! *cheers*

 

[Chronicler]

Well, what can I say? It seems that I have lost. Congratulations on winning our debate, Gamer4Fire. I had a wrong approach, didn't make my arguments clear enough. Like SnorSnor, I didn't intend to be a "holy light" or anything, and I'm sory if anyone took it like that. Also like SnorSnor and BL, and as Gamer4Fire has suggested, I'll leave this topic for debate among others because I have lost interest. Gosh, at the rate that Christians are dropping out of this, it'll just be aethiests debating amongst each other- should be interesting. I hope this topic continues to spawn interesting debates.

 

[JBird1203]

--------------------------------------------------
"I think we should not always look on the wrong, but also look at the good at what Christianity has done. Sheltered people homeless people, food to the hungry, money to the poor, clothes to the clotheless, fire for the cold, and the greatest of all the things, is that they've shown them the love of Christ that is in them that they might believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior."
-SnorSnor
--------------------------------------------------

All of those things, can be done without the aid of a fraudulent, mind controlling idea, more commonly known as a religion.

 

[Marc Hobbs]

I have a few words I'd like to add to this.

I am a Christian, but not an incredibly devout one. Sure, I believe in God, but I don't care whether or not you or anyone else does. My views tell me that if I'm realtivly good (but not ALL the time... heh heh heh...) throughout my life and I believe in SOME sort of God, I'll get into Heaven. Now, just because I have someplace to go after I die doesn't mean I'm going to waste my life here "preparing" for Heaven. Heck no! I'm going to live it up, do what I want to be happy, and not worry my life away about whether or not I'm going to the "better place" after I die. Forget that!

Secondly, I once read an interesting story about an aethisest guy (no it didn't rank on aetheists). The author brouhgt up and INCEDIBLY good point (not that this is my personal beief, but it's a good one nonetheless) When you die, you go wherever you BELIEVE you're going to go. So the author explained that all those Vicking guys got to go to their heaven and do battle all day and drink mead and have a grand ol' time. And all those people who believe they'll be reincarnated, well, they are. Christians and other Catholics who think they're going to Heaven go there, and those who are undoubtedly going to **** are sent there as well. So therefore, aethisests go to an empty void and just kinda lay there and be dead, as they believe (well, something like that, right? you just kinda cease to exist right? Correct me please if I'm wrong) This guy, well, I guess he wasn't an aetheist after all, because he didn't believe in anything. Even aetheists believe in SOMETHING, although this something is nothing, but they believe in it. Right? Therefore, this non-believeing guy was accidentally sent to Oz, simply because the universe didn't know where to put him, blah blah blah, I've made my point.

Finally, I just have one other thing to add about religion in the Pledge of Alligence. Just because you say it doesn't mean you belive it. If you object to that particular portion, "...Under God..." then just DON'T SAY IT! They give you the choice of not speaking, so just don't say the words if it bothers you!

This is all I have for now, I'm going to get off the soap-box and hand it to the next post...

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Linked To The Past ]</p>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Of course I don't say it. The point is, there is a seperation of church and state, and the government should not have "under God" in an official...phrase? whatever you clal the Pledge. The "under God" should not be there, and if people believe, they can add it if their deluded heart so desires. Would you mind if the official wording was "under Satan"? "under Allah"? "ruled by little green fairies who have mind control over it's leaders"? because it's the same thing.

-B

 

[CaptFalcon]

Hello everyone. I've been reading this topic and I am a little disappointed in how it has gone. First off, I am a Christian (hears the boos and hisses from many atheists sp?). I think that SnorSnor has done a great job of explaining what Christians REALLY believe. I too have seen some misconceptions about the Christian faith. He only saw some things that were wrong and felt the need to explain them a little better. I too felt this need, but I thought he was doing a pretty good job.

Posted by Kokichi:

That's what you did wrong. BL wanted to know why we think they way we do; we said it, you tried to prove us wrong, hense, you made this yet another religious discussion, instead of keeping it plain and simple. More people (including myself) felt that we needed to retailiate, which we shouldn't have.

SnorSnor never tried to prove you wrong. He was only trying to like he said, clear up some misconceptions (which clearly exist). Do you think it was possible from the beginning to have a peaceful discussion about this? I don't, because there is always bound to be questions that will lead into other things.
Oh yeah, another thing, SnorSnor explained some things about why God does certain things; he explained them very well but yet people open the door for more discussion on a topic that has already been discussed.For instance:


Kokichi posts about the flood and many other events trying to show that God is a murderer:
&lt;&lt; Genesis 6
11
Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence.
12
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13
So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
14
So make yourself an ark of cypress[1] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out.
15
This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.[2]
16
Make a roof for it and finish[3] the ark to within 18 inches[4] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.&gt;&gt;

SnorSnor went on to explain that these verses should be looked at w/ its context. But yet Kokichi proceeds to put this in one of his messages:


&lt;&lt;"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Jesus, Matthew 10:34&gt;&gt;

Yes it seems by this verse that Jesus was a violent man, but he's God, God can do whatever he pleases and if someone doesn't like it than oh well. You'll probably laugh when you hear me say this but, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. I know, its cheesy, but it fits very well.

About Mormons, I have heard these things about Mormons too. Obviously, someone has some terrible misconceptions about Mormons, but from what I have heard, Mormons are not even close to Christians (at least the extreme Mormons). Maybe we could look into this...

Overall, in this topic, I see some Christians that need to study up a little and I see some atheists that need to also. Its just a little frustrating for me and many other Christians like me to try to get our point across with so many things against us. So in conclusion, people need to get a better understanding of other people. I think we are mature people who can get through a debate without calling people ignorant half-breeds or what not, and I hope that future debates like this one go a little better. So, I digress(sp?), but if you have any questions or comments about me or Christianity or if you just want to talk about watermelons (don't ask), please IM or e-mail me at Andybob86@aol.com.

 

[Cos.]

Aren't atheists the ones who don't believe in god? Even if you disprove christianity(good luck(sarcastic)), you haven't disproved the exstistence of a god. It's pratically impossible to prove or even harder disprove the existence of a "God".
An explination to our mind being dependent on a soul would be, that the soul is bound the the mater of the body and for this reason "feels" with it.
I have a nice hypothise for after death. As sad as it is we can't ceise to exist after deathThis would break the law of energy conservation that energy can't be lost, but only changed, what this woulod have as an effect after death is there for physically not clear.
Here we just have an example of how pushy people are and what to be right, but which such things, we're just a league to small to comprihend. Our universerse is to complex to be able to decide how it was "made". We should maybe first try to understand nearer things that scientists are breaking their heads on.
--------------------
Step by step, we don't know where we'll end
our laws will shall often bend.
What will we be so far ahead?
Yes, that's right, we'll be dead.

 

[JT IceFire]

Apologies. I should know better than to ressurect a dead thread.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: JT IceFire ]</p>

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

dead? It was only 5 days old.

 

[Arrow]

Since there is a lot of bickering about the theory of evolution on this thread, I might as well throw this little opinion in the fray: Did you ever consider that maybe God AND evolution could both exist? You'll notice that I never once said that evolution is without a doubt wrong in any of my past posts. But you guys act like EVERY Christian does not believe in evolution or the big bang, but that is simply not the case. Many denominations of Christians believe that God used evolution to create man, and many more go so far as to say that God caused the big bang. Now, I will admit that personally I don't fall into this category... I tend to believe that when the Bible says God created man, it means that literally and not that He created them through years of evolution. But I know many Christians who do believe that God used evolution. I think that as long as you accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal savior, it doesn't really matter how you think God created the world. It's not a point worth arguing since it's not going to matter in the end. You guys also act like any accomplished scientist CANNOT believe in God, but this isn't true either. There are many well known scientists who are Christians... and again, some believe in the big bang, and some don't. But like I said before, I really don't think it matters. Personally, I don't believe it, but I'm not so far gone as to say I don't think it's a possibility. I just want you guys to stop accusing EVERY Christian of denying you're "unparalleled" facts that "prove" evolution. Maybe it is real, but I'm not buying into it until someone shows me this said "proof"... Why do you think it's still considered a theory?

I want to reply to a few more comments on this thread, but some of the ignorant statements individuals are making have made me sick. So I'll return after I have had my lunch break to clear my thoughts. Laterz.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Arrow ]</p>

 

[Ghastriph]

Religion (mostly christianity) is the #1 cause of death since the Gregorian calender. The holy wars, Osama, Hitler, the Templars, Jerusalem, the killing where thousands of people were brought to a secluded place and forced to drink Coolaid with poison in it so they would go to heaven, otherwise they would be shot to death with automatics by the gaurds so there was no living survivors, etc. Drugs still have a ways to go before they reach the death count of Xianity.<hr></blockquote>

Stop. You're acting like an *** . If you don't even know your religions, don't even speak.

1) The SPANISH INQUISITION was carried out by Catholics, which IS NOT Christianity.

2) The 5 TEMPLARS are freaken ISLAMIC....I don't know how you got Christianity from that.

3) Hitler was trying to make a master race out of Aaryans....uh...I don't even know why you threw in the Christian thing here.

4) The whole Jerusalem thing is weird. It's different because It's the Jews. It is very close to Christianity, but it lacks the major Christian belief: Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. the JEWISH religian believes he was just a prophet, not THE MESSIAH. They're still waiting...again...I don't see where you got Christianity from that.

5) OSAMA BIN LADEN is MUSLIM....I'm not even sure he is MUSLIM, because it is a peaceful religion. Point being, MUSLIM is not close to Christianity.


It's really fun to shout things out when you don't know what you're talking about, isn't it, Kokichi?

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Hey Ghastriph...You'll notice in his quote he said "Religion (mostly Christianity)..."
So he was talking about all religions, not just Christianity. Also, I quote the first sentence of my encyclopedia's entry on the Roman Catholic Church:
"The Roman Catholic Church is the largest body of Christians in the world."
So I don't know where you got the idea of them not being Christians...I'm sure you aren't one, and you don't want to be put in the same boat as them, but that's not for you to decide.

Just thought that needed to be said...
How's that foot taste, anyway?

-B

 

[JBird1203]

Wow. Don't topics like this bring out the true character in us all? Hostility, anger, accusations -- it's a wonder to me how humans have been around THIS long.

 

[Arrow]

Get a life B! Seriously! Ghastriph just disproved every one of those claims as being due to Christians, so even using the term "Mostly Christian" was false since in fact none of them are Christians. Yes, Catholics are Christian, but not Protestant. I think that needs to be emphasized. I am a Protestant. So is SnorSnor if you're curious. Catholics, although sharing beliefs in God and Jesus being His one and only Son, also have a lot of other beliefs that Protestants do not share. Such as the absolving of sins, Purgatory, and the amount of importance they place on the Virgin Mary... these are things Protestants don't believe in. So don't immediatly asume all Christians are the same.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Not saying Kokichi was right in that it was mostly Christianity...Just that he wasn't as wrong as Ghastriph made him out to be. So delete the "mostly Christianity" and put in a "including to a large degree Christianity" if you so desire. The end result is the same, religion kills.
Anyway, I think he forgot about the Crusades, the Spaniard Christians vs. the Moors (Arabs), etc etc...There's more heinous Christian crimes than what he listed.
BTW, when the opposing side in an argument points out one of the faults of your side, it is pretty poor form to respond with "get a life". Try refuting the point?

-B

 

[Kokichi]

Christianity is a religion.

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." - Thomas Jefferson <hr></blockquote>

He wrote the declaration of independence. The very thing that makes our nation so great. It talks about the seperation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, most people who signed the Constitution of the United States of America were either athiest/agnostic.

Having this pledge goes against it and is, in a way, unconstatutional.


About religion being the #1 death.....that much is deffinatly true. The statistics are overwhelming. Sure, christianity isn't the leading religion of death, but it has it's numbers. And how come you didn't talk about the shooting and the Coolaid thing, huh? It was in the newspaper and on TV too.

BTW I said RELIGION, and all of those are/were RELIGIONS, just like you and I both said.

Something on life after death....people who have taken the drug ketaminehad reported the EXACT same feelings and experiences as those of near-death situations. What ketamine does is it cuts off some of the nervous systems links to the brain, causing the brain to withdraw unto its self. Maybe if you took some science classes you'd learn this. Also, I bet that in christian schools they don't even have biology.

About the universe creation.....

Many years ago people didn't know how babies were made; they simply knew stick it in there, ejacualate, and 9 months later a new life is brough into this world. We also thought that lightning and thunder was the work of God, and for the Greeks, Zeus. Since there we have found out the whole process of the female sexual system and hoe a baby is born. We discoverd that lightning was caused by loose electrons and the sort. If there was no science, we wouldn't know this stuff, and if chrisitianity ruled the earth, we never would know because we would be confined to our little cells and books. Hense, in a few centuries, it is most probable that we will discover the origin of the universe, and everyday we take one step closer.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." <hr></blockquote>

SnorSnor, do you believe in the Greek or Roman gods? (they are the same thing with differnet names, so I don't even know why I said both
) What about the Jewish god? Hindu? Budda? Any other religion? Well, think for a second why you don't, then apply that to your God, and boom, that's what most atheist think.

 

[Ender_Wiggen]

Here's my thoughts on the subject. Most of the post I have read so far have played
down if not outright denounced other peoples beliefs. I don't know about a lot of you
but I thought this topic was supposed to be about what you believe in not about how
pointless you think what other people's beliefs are. Anyway here's my answer to your
question.

I think I am what you call an "atheist". In many other cultures where religion is much
more broadly defined I would be considered religious. I find the best definition for
religion in India. Religion is a sincere search for understanding of self and the
universe. So I think that most everyone who posted in this room is not an atheist.

 

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
<strong>Not saying Kokichi was right in that it was mostly Christianity...Just that he wasn't as wrong as Ghastriph made him out to be. So delete the "mostly Christianity" and put in a "including to a large degree Christianity" if you so desire. The end result is the same, religion kills.
Anyway, I think he forgot about the Crusades, the Spaniard Christians vs. the Moors (Arabs), etc etc...There's more heinous Christian crimes than what he listed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok. Fine. You guys are absolutely right. I guess Christians are just the worst group of people to walk the Earth. Even though you've only been able to give 2 examples of our crimes against humanity (the Inquisition and the Crusades) and both were by very misguided groups, it obviously shows that we are unfit to live. After all, how can I even compare to the atheists? They're perfect! They've only caused 2 World Wars as well as countless civil wars across the earth, any one of which is responsible for many times as many deaths that have ever been attributed by Christians. End of discussion. The winner is you. [/sarcasm]

 

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Gamer4Fire:
<strong>What is wrong with you? Have you no shame to make fun of your Christian brothers? The church of Christ for latter day saints, believes nothing of the sort! The fact that you use this misinformation to explain why you can't answer a question appalls me! Yes, Mormons are Christians too. But they believe in the words of saints of the present (or near present, or whatever you call a hundred years ago to be.) I have Mormon friends that would weep at your ignorance. You stupid Christians can't even get along together, what do you expect to gain by bringing us into your "holy light" when you can't even work out which holy light is the right one? Go to a Mormon church and learn their views, see in Christ what they see in Christ. Don't make fun of them, because they believe differently.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't believe Mormons are Christians, but I shall elaborate. It is true that both groups believe in God and His one and only Son Jesus. That's great, but unfortunatley, they have something to add. You see, they have this thing called the Book of Mormon. Basically, it has a bunch more prophets who lived after the time of Jesus. That in it's self wouldn't be too bad, except that these prophets make some rather interesting claims about Jesus returning to Earth after He ascended to heaven. They say He came back to preach to those in America. That is the main fault of the Book of Mormon. It disproves the entire book since it contradicts the Holy Bible. The Bible states that when Jesus returns to the Earth again, it will be at the end of the Tribulation, and will start His reign on Earth. Basically the end of the world... see that other topic that's floating around. I already made lots of fun filled posts there about this. Anywho, if Jesus had come to America, it would have been the end of the world. And well... we're still here, aren't we? I don't even know how the Church of Latter Day Saints can exist with that huge glaring contradiction. God does not contradict! And then there's the whole Joseph Smith thing... they place entirely too much divinity on the guy.

To sum up, I don't think that Mormons are bad or that they're all going to h3ll or anything of the sort. I just feel that they are misguided as far as what's written in the Book of Mormon. I believe God had everything He wanted recorded in the Bible the first time. They do believe in Jesus, which is a lot more than I can say for most other religions, so I'll give them partial credit. Just my opinion

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Originally posted by Kokichi:
<strong>Many years ago people didn't know how babies were made; they simply knew stick it in there, ejacualate, and 9 months later a new life is brough into this world.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, in many places they didn't even know that sex created children. They just thought it naturaly happened.

Arrow- Good for you and your beliefs. I don't care. You both believe in Christ, you're both christians. The bible contradicts itself, the book of mormon contradicts the bible. You're both christian. So tally-ho christian. From my point of view your both in the same boat.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gamer4Fire ]</p>

 

[Arrow]

I'm sorry for posting so many times in a row, but I really feel the need to address some of these issues, and I don't want to just keep editing my post since these are seperate topics. This will be the last one for tonight, I promise Anywho, here goes:

Originally posted by JBird1203:
<strong>Wow. Don't topics like this bring out the true character in us all? Hostility, anger, accusations -- it's a wonder to me how humans have been around THIS long.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not replying directly to JBird, just seemed like a good quote to open this with. Many of you atheists are continually getting angry at us Christians for arguing with you so much. I know not all of you are... I give a great deal of respect to those that have admitted to atheism but don't start dissing the Christians just because. But many others are taking this way out of hand. Saying how much they hate Christians and our ideals. You act like we're just trying to start trouble by coming here and debating with you. And yet, you'll notice that every single one of the religious debate topics of late was started by an atheist, not a Christian. If you want a debate, then that's what we're giving you! If you don't want to hear our opinion, then why did you even start the topic? Why do you say "Tell me what you think!" and then when we do, you say "That's total BS! I hate Christians! Why do you always harass us like this?" Also, reffering back to the quote I started with, notice who is harrassing who. Not one Christian has posted here and gave a single insult towards the atheists or their beliefs. While we sit back and listen to you deface our beliefs, and say how much you hate us, all we've done is shared our opinion with you. We disagree with your beliefs, yes. But we never once say that we hate you because of it or show any sort of intolerance what so ever. Why? Because quite the opposite is true. We care about you. Like the Good Book says: "Love your neighbor as yourself." The only reason ma and SnorSnor reply at all is because we care about your souls. I don't want to speak for him, but I'm fairly sure me and Snor agree on this. We honestley feel that we know the Truth, and we just want to share it with you. We never try to come accross as pushy or anything... we only respond when you ask us to really. We've shown you nothing but love, and all you respond with is hatred. I really don't understand what your problem is. If you don't want us to share our views then fine. Don't start any more debate topics, and you'll never hear from us again. All I ask is that when you DO start these topics not to get so offensive towards us. Why can't you treat our beliefs with the tolerance we treat yours? Honestley we just care about you, that's all. If you don't care about us, fine. Just try to show a little respect... After all, the name of this topic is Religious Debate for the MATURE.

Kokichi: I have one last comment in reply to some of your posts. Ok, you've made your point. Obviously a great deal of the founding fathers were atheists and against religion. What in the heck is your point? Not one of us has brought up the subject of seperation of church and state, and yet you continuously must point out how wrong it is to say "Under God" in the Pledge of Alleigance and then give a handful of quotes from famous atheists about why Shristianity is wrong. Who cares? No one else is even discussing that here! I could just as easily say why we MUST have "Under God" in our pledge, and give you a bunch of quotes from famous Christians saying why atheism is wrong. It's a stale mate. And frankley no one else cares! Sorry to be blunt...

Well, I'm done. I won't reply to this topic again unless someone else makes a direct statement that requires my response. Thanks for a fun debate guys... really... Laterz!

 

[The Kirby Master]

Ok. Time for a Mormon to get on with this debate.
First off about the Bible, BBT is misusing a qoute in his sig, the Bible you see, also tells how things were like back then. The quote in question mearly told that women werent allowed to speak in church back then, they are now. About The Book of Mormon ummm

"We belive the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;we also believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God"-Articles of Faith #8 <hr></blockquote> any more questions about anything I've said PM me.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: The Kirby Master ]</p>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

The bitter irony of it all...

It's a shame Arrow can't see the irony of what he's saying.
Arrow says that he honestly believes he knows the Truth and is just trying to tell us his beliefs, because he loves us all and wants to save us. This is true. The funny thing, though, is that is exactly what I am doing as well, except my "Truth" is that God doesn't exist, my beliefs are that God doesn't exist, and I'm saving you from a life of ignorance and from not having as much fun as you could.
The funny thing is, Arrow sees what I'm doing as nothing but hatred, defamatory remarks, etc...
Well, Arrow, you've just seen the point I try to make every time I argue with Christians: Your religion is as offensive to me when you bring it up as mine is to you when I bring it up.
I'm just hoping now that you've seen this wonderful point, you will be able to learn from it.
BTW, I realize a lot of your comments were directed more at Kokichi, who is far too offensive and mean-spirited...As well as sometimes misinformed and far too opinionated. However, I'm sure some of it was directed towards me.
Consider, anyway, since you were getting mad at us for being rude, how you told me in an earlier post to "get a life". I wouldn't consider that being nice, would you? Don't be a hypocrite.
(Kokichi, try to hold back your laughter about that last line)

-B

 

[Etched in a Box]

I didn't want to be dragged into this discussion, but I have to comment on Arrow's "play the victim" tirade.

Do not hold "hatred for Christians" characteristic to all atheists. I'll simply use the typical theistic response by saying that people that hate Christians are not true atheists. Seriously, infidel is the word for them.

What atheists really hate is ignorance, which you display in large quantities. Now excuse some of us for thinking that you are a moron for being ignorant, but personal opinions will get in the way.

I understand that you love us, whether it's to get brownie points with your God or for your own personal satisfaction I do not care, but you must understand who the real underdog is. Wouldn't it just be a completely biased planet if everyone turned Christian? Excuse us for fighting against the river a bit.

Two world wars and countless civil wars? That is total BS.

 

[Arrow]

Get off of it already, B! Just because I told you to get a life doesn't mean I don't care about you, it just means... well, to get a life Some of the arguements you try to make are so ludicrous that I laugh out loud when I read them. And no, my topic wasn't directed just towards Kokichi. Well, the second half was, but the first part was meant towards a lot of people on here. I understand perfectly that you feel just as strongly about your disbelief as I feel about my faith. I never said that I have a problem with you sharing your opinion. That is the point of a debate after all. What I didn't like was how you were saying that you hate Christians. That goes beyond simply stating your beliefs of our origins or the reasons you think Christians are wrong. Instead, you've switched to discrimination. I have no problem with you criticizing my beliefs, I just didn't like you insulting them. How you consider that being hypocritical is beyond me.

You seem to think that every single Christian comes from this identical mold... that we've all been brainwashed to believe what we do. We're just a group of good-for-nothings that only knows what we learned in Sunday School. And that the only reason we think the way we do is because we haven't viewed the world in the same light you do. Well, I hate to say it, but you're wrong. I've never shared my life story on this forum, and I'm not going to since it would be pretty long, but there are a few things about myself I think I should point out. I grew up in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday throughout my childhood, and even went to a private school for 5th-8th grade. You're probably saying to yourself "Well see, no wonder you think the way you do. You're brainwashed!" Now what if I told you that once I got into college, I almost gave up on those beliefs. I took an intro to philosophy class that made me see the world in an eintirely new way. For the first time I actually considered that religion could be an invention of man to feel better about dying. So don't say I don't even understand your view point, because I really do. I've been there. I didn't actually become a true Christian until a few weeks ago! What reignited my faith? A combination of a lot of things... the first thing that really got me thinking was when I started reading the Left Behind books. I know me and SnorSnor do advertisements for it here quite often, but I seriously recommend that you read them. They're best sellers... not just Christian best sellers, NATIONAL best sellers. The entire series has sold over 50 million copies. I don't think it would hurt to at least look into it: <a href="http://leftbehind.com" target="_blank">leftbehind.com</a>
The point I'm trying to make is this: I've been where you are. I really understand why you think the way you do. But I also now know the Truth. And as such, I feel obliged to share it. If you don't want to listen, I don't mind. I pray that God will open your eyes one day. But in the mean time, stop accusing me of being "brainwashed" and not knowing any different, because quite the opposite is true. I had refuted everything I grew up believing, and when I came back to Christianity, it was under my own terms. I'm not perfect. I still cuss a lot when I don't think about it, and lie about things from force of habit. I'm not proud of that, but at least I know that my sins have been forgiven.

I'm done ranting for now. Time to go get me some dinner. Later all!

EDIT: Etched - I don't hold hatred towards Christians against ALL atheists. I know that most of the ones posting here have had the decency to respect my opinions, even if they don't agree. I admire those who did that. I'm really speaking to the ones who specifically said they hate us. I'm not trying to generalize all atheists or anything. Just clearing that up.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Arrow ]

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Arrow ]</p>

 

[spaz519]

I have a question: If a polytheist believes in many gods, and a monotheist believes in one god, then technically, could a religion without a god be considered atheism? I'm not sure, but is Buddhism like that, religion w/out a god? Forgive me if I'm wrong, I haven't looked into it.

 

[Etched in a Box]

The only thing atheism means is lack of belief in a God. So yes, Buddhists are atheists.

 

[Kokichi]

Originally posted by Arrow:
<strong>

They've only caused 2 World Wars as well as countless civil wars across the earth, any one of which is responsible for many times as many deaths that have ever been attributed by Christians. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Atheis didn't cause the World Wars. If you think that, go to history class and learn something! Why do you think that money was printed with "In God we Trust"? This happened after WW2 I believe (either that or the Civil War, I'm a bit rusty on my history). Both the US and our enemies thought they had God on their side. So who does he favor?

Also, like I said before, SnorSnor, Arrow, someone, tell me why you disprove or disbelieve in other gods and religions. Why isn't Zeus real? Why isn't the Jewish god real? Why is Mother Goose real? Answer those 3 questions for me, then you I could reply using the same answeres for your God.

Also, couldn't you guys think of another name then God??? I mean, God is a god. A diety. The Greek god's were called Zeus, Hera, Hermes, etc. Yet you're guy's god is called God. It's like calling a cat Cat, a dog Dog, or a human being Human. Just wanted to say that

Here's another thing: Back when Jesus was supposed to walk the earth, bad things were going on. Here is just a skeptical look:

God made us. The girl, Eve, was in a way bad and resiliant and listed to a TALKING snake. She ate the fruit from the tree of KNOWLEDGE.

Ok, for this part, Eve is basically the bad sorta gal. When the Bible was published there was a lot of sexism. That could be one reason why the author's put this in. Secondly, doesn't seem a bit odd that they weren't to eat from the tree of KNOWLEDGE?? Hmmm.....the Bible says not to eat from the tree of knowledge....don't be knowledgable....in a way, this is saying "Don't ask questions, don't be smart (knowledgable). If you have knowledge, you have understanding of your surroundings. So this brings me to concer that the the religion's attitude is "shut up and don't ask questions, what I tell you go's, what this book tells you go's". Hmmm, seems a bit suspious, no? They just don't want people to find out the truth.

Life after death: The church's say that, if you are good, you go to heaven. If you are bad, you go to h3ll.

This could very easily scare a young child. How do they know if they are being good? The church and the Bible tells them that. So the little kids, without much comprehention of the matter, believe that they need to be religious. They are scared/brainwashed into it (sry to use such harsh words). Plus, nobodies ever been to heaven and back. They just say "I have seen the light". Although that same feeling can be recreated with the drug ketamine.

Just wanted to bring up some stuff....O ya and one more thing. I read an interesting article in this scientific magazine that talks about the universe. In it it discusses dark matter, dark energy, gravity, and other laws, forces, and theories. One cool thing is that they have found an outstanding number of evidence for the Big Bang. They found out that as time goes on, the univers's expantion isn't slowing down, it's actually speeding up. Also, it talked about the Big Bang theory. It says that the first part of it is still contraversial, but everything that follows it, surprisingly, almost 100% of scientists agree on. Before the universe there was a small, extremely hot, radiationed dot about half the size of an atom. The Big Bang is when the energy was so enourmous it exploded. Then gaseous formations came, this made the elements, yadadadaddaa, and eventually we got the earth and the sun and our Solar System. Basically, the thing from making this strong theory a law is the beginning and the space time continium, which is curently being discovered and disscussed.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Well, Arrow, I don't know where the **** you got the idea that I hate Christians, but you need to shut the **** up and stop putting words in my mouth because I most definitely do not hate Christians. My brother? Christian. My girlfriend? Catholic (Christian). 95% of my friends? Christian/Catholic. If I hated Christians, I would be a sad panda. No, what I hate is Christianity itself, and almost all other religions, Christians who want to impose it on me (Pat Robertson), and specific instances where Christians such as SnorSnor bring religion into nonreligious debate, where it holds no merit.

I'm sorry about using the word "brainwashed" but I think it's the closest to what I want to say, which is a combination of ignorant and brainwashed. When I say "brainwashed" I mean you listen to the Bible, which has no factual merit, which while not the technical definition of brainwashed is **** close.

But I digress. Etched, you bring up a point I forgot to mention last time.
Arrow, where the **** do you get off saying Atheists were behind 2 world wars and countless civil wars? When we say Christians were behind things, we mean Christianity itself, as in Christian beliefs fueled the attack. Until an atheist like me gets so pissed at you **** Christians and your religious persecution that he forms his own country and declares war on you, wars will not happen due to atheism. There has never been a war fueled by atheism, as far as I know, and I think it's pretty questionable that many if any wars have been fought by atheists in general.
Care to elaborate on that baseless claim, perhaps?
That's all for now, I suppose.

-B

 

[sc3po]

in a tolerant society all truths are equal for that specific person. 2+2 could equal 7 and nobody could say it is wrong. anarchy would rule. crime would be legal and you, and everybody else, could do whatever you wanted.

if you don't believe in absolutes get a compass. no matter what you believe magnetic north is still magnetic north. sure you can temporalily alter it with a magnet but all the other compasses still point north.

the reason God allows people to go to **** is he is a just and fair God. He is perfect and if he allowed sinful people to come into His kingdom that would be unfair. by doing this this would make Him unjust and therefore making him not God

we can not be perfect. it is in our nature to screw up. when we except Christ into our lives God forgets all of our screw ups. when we are to be judged God can not reject Christ in you because that would make him imperfect.

PM me if you have any questions about this or any other topic.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

A tolerant society doesn't mean a stupid society. "There are many lies but only one truth." For example: 2+2=5 for very large values of 2. That is the truth, you cannot change that. But I'll assume you won't understand. So, I'll use your messed up example of the compass. Magnetic north is always magnetic north. You might be able to change where the compass points, where all compasses point, but magnetic north will still be magnetic north.

God is your magnet. Changing the truth perceived so that you don't have to handle life. It doesn't change anything for the rest of us, but for you, it is an escape from reality. Be happy you crazy christian. TRUTH: 90% of Americans have an imaginary friend, his name is God. This friend lives up in the clouds, and has a long list of stuff that you shouldn't do. Otherwise you're sent to a place of eternal pain, caught within the flames that burn but do not consume. But he loves you. Yeah right.

Perfection is merely the final goal of humanity.