The anticipated impact of Custom Special Moves on gameplay and balance (Statistics!)

[DairunCates]

Pretty much. Any decent KIU player would call a weapon that doesn't have a negative modifier incomplete.

Not to mention getting a 0 star rating on the melee/ranged stat that your weapon barely uses. So, you needed a LOT of combination fodder to get everything combined. God. I'm getting flashbacks.

Yeah. Kid Icarus' item combination worked well for it's own game, but I seriously doubt a competitive fighting community is gonna want to spend 150 hours farming and perfecting equipment instead of developing new techniques. Mind you. We don't even know if there's any kind of combination effect. I was more just pointing out that things get even more likely to be a massive grind when you add in the part where you might only get a maxed "+speed" if you find equipment with specific defects on it... and that takes forever.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Not to mention getting a 0 star rating on the melee/ranged stat that your weapon barely uses. So, you needed a LOT of combination fodder to get everything combined. God. I'm getting flashbacks.

Yeah. Kid Icarus' item combination worked well for it's own game, but I seriously doubt a competitive fighting community is gonna want to spend 150 hours farming and perfecting equipment instead of developing new techniques. Mind you. We don't even know if there's any kind of combination effect. I was more just pointing out that things get even more likely to be a massive grind when you add in the part where you might only get a maxed "+speed" if you find equipment with specific defects on it... and that takes forever.

I think a piece of equipment's +stat and -stat, as well as its special benefit/deficit, is based purely on the type of equipment. It's only the exact values of the stat increase and stat decrease that change depending on the individual equipment piece. So for example, High-Speed Dash Shoes are always going to be +Speed / -Attack, and they're always going to have the "High-speed dash" benefit. And remember, the amount of stat decrease you get appears to be specifically tied to the amount of stat increase, so it might not always be in the player's best interest to get equipment with the highest possible increase, as that also results in the highest possible decrease. Now, some equips might be objectively "better" than others by a few points simply due to the way the stat scaling works, which might turn out to be an important concern.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

The only way I can see equipment working is if a character's equipment set-up is given a power budget; that is, they may only use equipment set-ups that do not give them a total net stat increase that exceeds their budget.
I don't see it happening - but I'd like for equipment to be reasonably considered and not pushed aside and forgotten.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not to mention getting a 0 star rating on the melee/ranged stat that your weapon barely uses. So, you needed a LOT of combination fodder to get everything combined. God. I'm getting flashbacks.

Yeah. Kid Icarus' item combination worked well for it's own game, but I seriously doubt a competitive fighting community is gonna want to spend 150 hours farming and perfecting equipment instead of developing new techniques. Mind you. We don't even know if there's any kind of combination effect. I was more just pointing out that things get even more likely to be a massive grind when you add in the part where you might only get a maxed "+speed" if you find equipment with specific defects on it... and that takes forever.

I never really had trouble with fusion fodder and stars, but I've been ten weapons away from the max for as long as I can remember. I could make basically anything I wanted whenever I wanted since I was such a pack rat.

 

[Book Jacket]

One thing I just realized has me pumped for custom moves.

Because each character will have three options, that might triple the chances of useful character-specific techs.

What if one of Samus's missile options is land cancellable? What if one of Yoshi's ground pounds is jump cancellable? And I mean, with three times the options, there's no way we won't see some exploits. I'm excited to see what comes out of top players working in the lab.

 

[Zareidriel]

I firmly believe there are custom moves that are too good.

Rosalina's Luma-teleport and single-fast-starbit specials bring her from being an S-Class character to an SS-class character; not fun to fight against with any character. If you fight a good one you'll see exactly what I mean.

I'm sure there are examples other than this one. I'd recommend a banned moves list, but that seems like it would be impossible for everyone to agree about it.

Between that fact and sheer speed and uniformity of play (especially on the Wii U version, would the moves have to be changed before each player is able to play in a tournament?) I vote that custom moves are completely banned.]

This much I posted in the other thread. But I came to a couple new, simple conclusions.

Some characters will have special move options that are, all of them, worse than the default (For example I'm a Robin main and I feel the specials are all equal to, or worse, than their defaults. I realize we don't have all the information now, but that is my current view). This will give those characters with better custom moves an advantage, across the board. If the character with superior special move options is a "better character" than the one with worse special move options, its advantage is multiplied.

This could possibly make better characters better, leaving worse characters in an even more difficult position than before, and could lead to the "gap" between the worst character and the best one increasing in size (this would happen throughout the tier list, making worse characters more and more unattractive to play in favor of better characters with better special move options).

I read your statistics and everything looks sound. However, the (possible) conclusions I would draw from them are not the same ones you drew.

 

[Katy Parry]

Yeah, I just competed in SHUFFL V and custom moves were allowed. Rosalina and Sonic were pretty much unstoppable.

I used to be for custom moves, but now I'm not. I'm fine with having certain tournaments allowing them, but after my experience, and how disorganized the tournament was, I'm not okay with it.

For 3DS its fine, because your moves are already completed, but I feel our moves should have been written down and told to the other player. When you go into a match up, you should know what to expect, but when Rosalina made Luma appear right next to me with no charge or anything, it completely shook me.

I'm for it, but won't each person have to customize their fighter before a match begins?

 

[Thinkaman]

Rosalina actually suffers from custom moves being enabled, due to the sheer volume of anti-Luma options this opens up in most matchups.

Speedy Star Bit is a really good move, but it's Luma-dependent and inflexible when used aerially. (It is also more vulnerable to reflection than most linear projectiles for the same reason.) Luma Warp is also a good move, but loses a lot of its surprise factor and becomes rigid once people get used to it. These are nice upgrades, but not equal to the incredible anti-Luma tools that open up to her opponents.


Also, you're going to have to forgive an eyebrow raise at Robin not benefiting from customs. Thoron+ is asinine, and Speed Thunder is also a really good alternative in his worst matchups. Arcfire+ is also great exclusively for the Rosalina matchup. (It can one-shot Luma!)


And yeah, your character and moves should always be revealed to your opponent; I'm really surprised that someone ran a tourney without this basic protocol.

 

[the8thark]

And yeah, your character and moves should always be revealed to your opponent

You want people to counter pick moves like they do stages?

 

[Thinkaman]

You want people to counter pick moves like they do stages?

No, I want people to counter-pick moves like they do characters.

And regardless of pick procedure, they should be public knowledge. This was the common consensus in all rules discussion threads.

 

[Zareidriel]

I was actually surprised that there are Robin players prefer Thoron+ or Speed Thunder. Even against rushdown-types, I feel Speed Thunder takes too much away from every form of the move in exchange for that charge speed, especially in terms of knockback. There will always be time to charge Thunder, mostly aerially, even with a Greninja up in your business. And Thoron+'s single-use really takes a lot of the pressure away from Robin's range game in exchange for killing at (somewhat significantly) earlier percentage. There are probably situations where one or the other is an acceptable option, but from my own testing, regular Thunder seems like the best of both worlds.

The bit about Arcfire+ one-shotting Luma is nice to know. Though Arcfire+ is typically worse in my experience. I like Fire Wall but prefer Arcfire in general for better combo-ability.

Gliding Elwind and Distant Nosferatu are equal trade-offs as far as I'm concerned, both are good options when compared to the originals, but I wouldn't say either are definitively superior. It's possible Distant Nosferatu will be known as the superior option, but at least, at my current level that is not yet the case.

I don't think Luma Warp's strength lies in its "surprise factor". There seems to be little to no downtime for Luma or Rosalina after using the move, letting Rosalina take control of the stage nearly instantaneously. I agree that there are better anti-Luma options available with some characters; with other characters, Luma Warp (and in many cases for fighters weak to projectiles or without reflectors, the addition of Speedy Star Bit) spells their absolute doom.

 

[Book Jacket]

I don't agree. I mean sure, Rosalina seems to get a big bonus out of customs, but we already know Luma's being nerfed, and her good customs are really luma-dependent.

Sheik gets no significant advantages from custom specials so far, and Yoshi's benefits are debatable. Greninja has maybe one improvement on his moves, but everything is mostly situational or preferential changes. And yeah, sonic gets some cool stuff out of customs.

I don't think any of that is too overwhelming. I think that if you knew your opponents move choices, not that they weren't largely predictable already (Long starbit for RosaLuma, high-arcing ground-planting spin dash for sonic), then I think you could handle them. Add in to that the fact that so many characters benefit from customs that can really use the help (Ganondorf, Ike, Falco, Megaman, and Donkey Kong to name a few), and I think you've got a pretty convincing counter argument.

So many characters have customs that make them better or expand their options, and I think it'll blur the tier lists, it'll expend the meta, it multiplies the depth of the game. We should keep customs on, or the untapped potential will kill us.

 

[MIddyE57]

I love the idea of having custom moves, but the problem is unlocking them all. I think you can transfer custom characters from your 3DS to the WiiU version, but everyone doesn't have a 3DS so we can't rely on that for tournaments. It would take forever to unlock all custom moves for all of the characters and grinding it out for all tournament setups. The only real solution that I can see is if we could upload a 100% complete save file online and then have other users download it. I don't own a WiiU so I don't know if that method is possible.

 

[Xinc]

It occurred to me recently if you copied a custom set from your Wii U to your 3ds, you can't bring that set over to another Wii U. But if you unlock your sets with the 3ds itself, you're all set to go and can copy sets over to any Wii U you want.

Currently, to my knowledge, Hitbox arena allows for Palutena and Mii fighters to have customized sets but only if the player makes it public knowledge which set the character uses. If we allow for all sets to follow the same rule, it makes sense that the diverse sets will allow for a deeper metagame without being that large an influencer.

 

[KingBroly]

While it's a nice breakdown, Special Moves are still a complete pain in the ass to unlock, making it very hard to not only try out a complete moveset but play against a complete moveset during testing as well. Not to mention that every system in a Tournament and/or every player in one would have to have access and time to create a moveset for EACH match since players would be moving from system to system. It's just not realistic.

 

[Pyr]

While it's a nice breakdown, Special Moves are still a complete pain in the *** to unlock, making it very hard to not only try out a complete moveset but play against a complete moveset during testing as well. Not to mention that every system in a Tournament and/or every player in one would have to have access and time to create a moveset for EACH match since players would be moving from system to system. It's just not realistic.

To go in, select a specific set, save that set, and get back to the Smash option, it takes 1 minute. So... 2 minutes to set something that isn't already custom-loaded if both players do. Considering how much faster S4 is then Brawl, and the tourny set that is developing, 2 minutes at most is a very small cost to pay to help characters do better and add further depth to the game.

It is VERY realistic.

 

[Rajikaru]

I could definitely see this being an interesting change of pace, at least for Friendlies if allowed on places like Smash Ladder. I already know there are a lot of moves that could either potentially be better or are undoubtedly better than the regular moves, and it'd do so much for characters like Jigglypuff and Dedede that have incredibly useless specials (Armoured Jet Hammer is a godsend). There'd have to be a LOT of testing due to the sheer volume of the Custom move amount, but if it benefits the meta game positively, then it should be tried, at least.

...Though, after looking at customs, I have to say that maybe it won't be as useful as we think it is. Most of the useless specials mentioned (Yoshi's Egg Roll, Jigglypuff's Sing, Zelda's Din's Fire) don't have custom specials that are actually any better, they just act differently (this is really jarring for Jigglypuff's Sing, as both custom versions of it are even SLOWER and only blow the opponent back with minimal damage or create a small ring that does minimal damage). Kinda disappointing, honestly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Most of the useless specials mentioned (Yoshi's Egg Roll, Jigglypuff's Sing, Zelda's Din's Fire) don't have custom specials that are actually any better, they just act differently (this is really jarring for Jigglypuff's Sing, as both custom versions of it are even SLOWER and only blow the opponent back with minimal damage or create a small ring that does minimal damage). Kinda disappointing, honestly.

Hyper Voice has pretty solid knockback and is basically her only disjoint (being noticeably bigger than Sing is solid). Spinphony does pitiful knockback but also flips controls for 30 frames, making it good against certain recoveries. Bowser's weak armor and Yoshi's double jump tank through the knockback, for instance, making it just a slow, INCREDIBLY large Mario Cape against them.

 

[Rajikaru]

Hyper Voice has pretty solid knockback and is basically her only disjoint (being noticeably bigger than Sing is solid). Spinphony does pitiful knockback but also flips controls for 30 frames, making it good against certain recoveries. Bowser's weak armor and Yoshi's double jump tank through the knockback, for instance, making it just a slow, INCREDIBLY large Mario Cape against them.

Well, that sounds more interesting than what I saw from the Training place at least (where they both just did a minor amount of damage), but they still aren't nearly as versatile enough to actually make Jigglypuff more powerful, so I'd say if other customs are like that (like Yoshi's egg specials), then it probably won't have much impact on the meta game at large. Variation is still great, of course.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hyper Voice is a legitimate edgeguard option at higher percents and Spinphony WRECKS a handful of recoveries.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Didn't see this post until now, but wow, well written as usual Thinkaman. Pretty much agreed with everything but you were able to articulate it all very elaborately.

If I had a nickle for every time Sakurai was mistranslated or misinterpreted, I'd import a Japanese 3DS with half my loot.

<3

 

[warriorman222]

Hyper Voice is a legitimate edgeguard option at higher percents and Spinphony WRECKS a handful of recoveries.

Not to mention the other specials. We shouldn't ban customs because some are too weak. That's literally banning a collection of stuff because some are underpowered. The exact opposite of ban criteria.

 

[Rajikaru]

Not to mention the other specials. We shouldn't ban customs because some are too weak. That's literally banning a collection of stuff because some are underpowered. The exact opposite of ban criteria.

If you're referring to what I said (and even if you aren't), that's not what I mean; even though it's possible the customs would help characters with useless specials become more versatile and over-all useful, there's still the possibility that the customs aren't any more useful. Nobody's suggesting they be banned for being not useful (unless they are in which case they're dumb), just pointing the fact out.

 

[Pazzo.]

Why isn't this posted on the front page yet? XD

This clears up a lot of misconceptions and provides a strong, reasonable argument for the inclusion of custom moves in the competitive scene.

 

[Finding Waldo]

I firmly believe there are custom moves that are too good.

Rosalina's Luma-teleport and single-fast-starbit specials bring her from being an S-Class character to an SS-class character; not fun to fight against with any character. If you fight a good one you'll see exactly what I mean.

I'm sure there are examples other than this one. I'd recommend a banned moves list, but that seems like it would be impossible for everyone to agree about it.

I agree with both of these.
Personally, I think custom moves are the single greatest addition to the game. However, some combinations are a little too powerful. Here's one good reason why a combination of custom moves should be banned. http://youtu.be/gohdpOTNDkE

 

[warriorman222]

I agree with both of these.
Personally, I think custom moves are the single greatest addition to the game. However, some combinations are a little too powerful. Here's one good reason why a combination of custom moves should be banned. http://youtu.be/gohdpOTNDkE

Take a look at all the Anti-Luma stuff out there. if it becomes a problem people can use Anti-luma sets. And that Hyper Power SmashVision... That was a Lvl 9 Ganon Usmash near the ledge, on the Wii U's FD where blastlines are very small, so it isn't a true OHKO. Not to mention with Hyper Smash you're the lightest thing in the game confirmed, nothing else puts you lower than Jiggly except Hyper Smash. And nobody's gonna fall for that, since Power Vision doesn't slow you, so you can spot dodge the Counter. Plus that thing loses Counter frames fast, it's slow and you can hit them out of it.

None of this stuff is MK OP, human beings were born to adapt to stuff, not to adapt the stuff to them.

 

[Terotrous]

While I was very in favour of custom moves when the feature was first unveiled, I've grown somewhat lukewarm on it over time. The main reason for this is just that the game's balance with customs off is actually pretty good, certainly the best of any Smash game so far. While enabling customs might make the balance better, I feel that it is more likely to make it worse simply by introducing more variables that may not have been properly considered by the developers.

What I would need to see to be convinced that this is a good idea is a general estimation of how much stronger each character becomes with their custom moves allowed (no one becomes weaker with customs enabled because your 1111 set remains available). If this is generally inversely correlated with our current perception of which characters are strong in the customs-off metagame, then I might be in favour of it, but if it's randomly distributed throughout the roster I'd probably recommend keeping them off.

 

[Finding Waldo]

Take a look at all the Anti-Luma stuff out there. if it becomes a problem people can use Anti-luma sets. And that Hyper Power SmashVision... That was a Lvl 9 Ganon Usmash near the ledge, on the Wii U's FD where blastlines are very small, so it isn't a true OHKO. Not to mention with Hyper Smash you're the lightest thing in the game confirmed, nothing else puts you lower than Jiggly except Hyper Smash. And nobody's gonna fall for that, since Power Vision doesn't slow you, so you can spot dodge the Counter. Plus that thing loses Counter frames fast, it's slow and you can hit them out of it.

None of this stuff is MK OP, human beings were born to adapt to stuff, not to adapt the stuff to them.

This was one attempt. Point being, it has the possibility to kill at zero. The problem would be pulling this out whenever. A smash around 50%, and they're toast.
People would still fall for this occasionally. Maybe not top level players, but someone has a mind lapse for a second, toasty oats.

 

[warriorman222]

This was one attempt. Point being, it has the possibility to kill at zero. The problem would be pulling this out whenever. A smash around 50%, and they're toast.
People would still fall for this occasionally. Maybe not top level players, but someone has a mind lapse for a second, toasty oats.

yes. the occasional mess-up. If Little Mac messes up beyond 50%, he's dead. But he doesn't require using a smash or being hit by a counter. If he even gets baired at 0% it's effectively an OHKO. Now Shulk can kill you if you use a really laggy attack on him while he's in Hyper Smash, then not spot dodge. You have plenty of time to dodge theCounter and stale the Vision, or just not let it happen.

 

[Finding Waldo]

Good point. I suppose it just ups the risk/reward. He can punish a laggy attack, but also be punished for any mistake he makes. I'm convinced. Custom moves are the way to go!
Rosalina I'm not so sure about though. I understand that anti-luma sets can be made, but it also seems to make it a game of trying to pick her weak matchups instead of most fighters going up against her.

 

[warriorman222]

Good point. I suppose it just ups the risk/reward. He can punish a laggy attack, but also be punished for any mistake he makes. I'm convinced. Custom moves are the way to go!
Rosalina I'm not so sure about though. I understand that anti-luma sets can be made, but it also seems to make it a game of trying to pick her weak matchups instead of most fighters going up against her.

It's more of the game's fault for giving her useless specials (why star bits when you can fsmash with almost the same range as Luma?), as well as customs that are better in every way.

 

[Finding Waldo]

It's more of the game's fault for giving her useless specials (why star bits when you can fsmash with almost the same range as Luma?), as well as customs that are better in every way.

Very true. Star bits are almost pointless. At least, I haven't found a good reason to use them. The single shot one though, that one gets spammed...

 

[warriorman222]

Very true. Star bits are almost pointless. At least, I haven't found a good reason to use them. The single shot one though, that one gets spammed...

Falco's Laser, except unduckable, more flexible, spammier, and stronger. Who thought this was comparable to Star Bits?

 

[GSM_Dren]

This thread should be on the front page, as it's a very good read for the advocacy of custom moves. With customs, characters can either stay where they are (1111) or go up in having more favorable matchups.
I haven't seen enough evidence as to why certain customs should be banned, players with enough intuition and dedication will find their way around it. An S character sure may receive an ultra super custom move, but that wouldn't severly impact them since they already are at the "top." Specials are just one facet of the character, it's the player behind them that will make them shine.

 

[Raijinken]

This thread should be on the front page, as it's a very good read for the advocacy of custom moves. With customs, characters can either stay where they are (1111) or go up in having more favorable matchups.
I haven't seen enough evidence as to why certain customs should be banned, players with enough intuition and dedication will find their way around it. An S character sure may receive an ultra super custom move, but that wouldn't severly impact them since they already are at the "top." Specials are just one facet of the character, it's the player behind them that will make them shine.

At least judging by the Custom Moveset Project, most of the currently perceived "best" characters don't really prefer customs anyway, whereas several of the "weaker" characters gain a lot of mileage out of it.

There's no way to tell if that would hold for the game's life unless we try.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Customs moves should always be legal. They make competitive play much more enjoyable.

 

[Electric91]

And after all this time, we've exactly done that...

 

[LancerStaff]

Too bad that the whole "bad moves get good specials and good moves get bad specials" didn't turn out, along with all the DLC characters completely lacking them.