Guide The Amateur's Almighty- A Mewtwo Guide by Quak

[GoldenGlove]

Awesome guide quak.

btw I like your sig, Scrubs is awesome.

 

[Antifreeze]

Great guide, never really played as mewtwo but having some skill with him against unexpecting players would be nice.

i second that Scrubs is awesome =D

 

[Airo]

hey quak... the edgeguarding section is too breif.

there are still options you havnt gave analysis for.

instant djc bair
nairs (one of the better options)
dtilt
ftilt
fair
shield grabs
edgehog to grab to backthrow (best options)
shadowball large and small

and later, when time permits, a character specific edgeguard section.

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also, it would be more convenient if you post at the end what you updated each time =]

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and yes, i suggest changing "defensive edgeplay" to "recovery"
and "offensive edgeplay" to "edgeguard/edgeguarding"

the terms you chose are confusing

 

[quak]

actually, it's funny you mention nairs, i've been experimenting with them, using it to drag down fastfallers. It seems a litte erratic, but if you get the final knockback, they're gone for sure.

But it seems like you contest the edgegaurding/recovery section the most, if you'd like to take some time out and write out a more desciptive and indepth veiw on it, it'd be glad to add it, let's start PM'ing each other questions to the guide, as they don't really involve anyone else.

I'll change the title names to edgegaurding and recovery.

And i'll start noting what i changed when i do it, but im hitting some rocky roads right now, so i trust that people will continue to not pressure me to finish this, it's on my to do list, it'll get done.

 

[Cohensorrows]

great guide...
Mewtwo ftw...

 

[Airo]

the last hit of Nair is very useful.. knocks the target to the wall and sends him strait down.

and for the record, of all the times ive used it, its never been predicted and wall teched.

fairly useful

 

[quak]

or if you DI back towards the stage, you knock them back so far that they can't recover, and no possibility of a tech.

 

[Airo]

since nair's knockback is diagonal and upwards, projecting your enemy outwards has no threat some character's possibility of recovering.

however, if you project them towards the stage (on stages with suspended edges, such as battlefield and final destination) they will be knocked on the ceiling of the stage and rebound downwards. This is also quite commonly known as stage spike. Peach's Dsmash is also a stage spike on battlefield.

stage spikes are non recoverable since they are not meteors and cannot be meter canceled. They must be teched, and in all stage spikes are rarely teched. mewtwo's nair does have the knockback to send them strait down without the target escaping their stumbling animation.

i base my analysis on pure experiences, not hypothetical derives.
this edgeguard is dependable

 

[quak]

i was talking about fastfallers, dude, previous post indicates the charactors i was toying around with the nair as an edgeguard. Sorry for the confusion

On floaties, it's a little situational because it's hard to stay connected while falling to get the final knockback below the stage, but you right, if you were to do it, then the best way is to stage spike em.

Unfortunatly for me though, my best competition out here walltechjumps like a fiend...

 

[Airo]

it applies to both fast fallers, average characters, and some floaties.
i wasnt directing my post specificly to floaties anyways.
on floaties and light characters, you generally dont edgeguard to kill them anyways.

wall tech is a reflex, a habit. when players direct their UpB for a sweet spot, when they reach the edge of the stage, they press L or R and smash DI towards the stage whether they know they will be smashed or not. it generally wont be in your opponent's habit to tech weird stage spikes like this one. on top, the timing is weird and potentially slightly different every time. the distance between the opponent and the stage isnt great enough for them to tech under conscious reflex anyways.

 

[KrF2]

You need to add something....

Mewtwo can "spike" falco,and fox(works better on falco but works on fox too) with disable.

 

[Airo]

lol wall of quote

and mewtwo's disable is NOT A SPIKE. no more hypothetical inefficient statements please.

 

[Coen]

Very nice guide man. Ouprioritizes the old guide in any way possible.

 

[DelxDoom]

I play comps. They DI out of my nairs. I can't nair.
Wavedash out of shield is defensive? I don't see why it's not offensive; you can't shieldgrab well w/ M2, but you can certainly wd out of shield to grab on laggy shielded aerials. Even though shield pretty much means defensive XD

Anyway, Mookie's combo with nair is pretty fun to do... sorry random.

Edgehogging: You can also SH revSBCC... reverse shadowball charge cancel thingy like Sheik's needles ^_^

 

[quak]

that's a big ****ing quote.....and i will definatly NOT add that disable spike thingy, doesn't work, people aren't that slow.

Delxdoom, i like how you're thinking, but im not sure what you're trying to say.

Are you saying to use the shadowball charge to edgegaurd while ur on the stage?

Or that from the ledge, you double jump and start charging your shadowball, cancel it, then grab the ledge?

Either way, they both are a little flaky/situational to be added, unless you can prove me wrong, and by all means, please do, the more options, the better.

 

[Airo]

shadowball charge as an edgeguard while mewtwo is on the stage. it is inescapable for some characters.

if they DI back, they will fall off to grab the edge again
if they roll, you can shoot the shadowball and PWN them
if they get up, they will get hit and knocked off again
if they use getup attack, your shadowball charge will intercept them and they will fall back off stage
if they use ledgehop aerials, your shadowball charge will ALSO intercpet them and they will fall back off the stage.
if they DI forward while your shadowball charge racks up damage, once they get over on the other side of the shadowball, shoot your shadow ball and PWN them.

it is flawless and tested in competitve matches.
does not work on all characters =p
but it works for a good amount of characters.

 

[quak]

ok, im sold, will add next update

 

[Glitch-Mew2]

good mewtwo guide, good accurate techniques

also, for disable, i remember one time using disable on someone that was rolling from the ledge n they instantly flew (as if being disabled twice on the ground). but at the same time im not entirely sure i might be imagining things

it would be a good, situational of course, technique that looks sexy as u perform it with great justice if anyone would like to try this be my guest, i would do it myself but not now

EDIT: it is confirmed, i tried this n it does work, not necessarily useful however, unless u can predict someone rolling from the ledge, if you do it at a good percentage it setsup for some good edgeguarding

 

[MetaKnight0]

shadowball charge as an edgeguard while mewtwo is on the stage. it is inescapable for some characters.

if they DI back, they will fall off to grab the edge again
if they roll, you can shoot the shadowball and PWN them
if they get up, they will get hit and knocked off again
if they use getup attack, your shadowball charge will intercept them and they will fall back off stage
if they use ledgehop aerials, your shadowball charge will ALSO intercpet them and they will fall back off the stage.
if they DI forward while your shadowball charge racks up damage, once they get over on the other side of the shadowball, shoot your shadow ball and PWN them.

it is flawless and tested in competitve matches.
does not work on all characters =p
but it works for a good amount of characters.

It's entirely escapable. Landing on the edge then immediately jumping back up transfers some invincibility frames to the jump. Any character with a quick double jump can just jump up and hit you with something quick. Shadowball doesn't cover the actual edge very well so a lot of characters can just go straight for the edge.

Of course if they try to spam the ledgehops you can start getting into some tricky stuff like tossing the Charged Shadowball if they go for the edge for a quick edge-hog or shielding the ledgehop and hax grab that ****.

 

[Airo]

false, i would like to stress that ive tested this in competitive matches and also that this does not work on all characters.

ledgehop does not give invincibility frames. ledgehop is simply letting go of the ledge and using your second jump.
If you plan to count the invincible frames from grabbing the ledge trying to make use of those frames to pull off a ledgehop aerial, the frames are still not enough to protect the character AND have enough frame time to release an aerial. ledgehop aerials cant counter this move; i am very sure in this.

i believe SBC hits every 2 frames, so in order for a ledgehop aerial to be successful and assuming that the character has an aerial that comes out in less than 5 frames, you may need at least 15 invincible frames. i deem this enough to dismiss the dependency ledgehop aerials.

The only way to defend against this SBC is to either use a ledge attacks with very fast frames in execution, or fall and use a upB or other aerials that have large range above the character.

 

[quak]

if you're getting hit by offensive up b that plows through your shadow ball charge by charactors such as: falco, fox, doc, mario, ness, peach, roy, or samus, then you're probably too close to the ledge.

You want the shadowball charging about half an inch away from the ledge, roughly. That way you don't get hit by their up B's.

However, many characters like marth, the links, and the marios, will wise up. For instance marth'll fair you before he grabs the ledge, the links' up b has massive range, mario's will cape. I'm sure they're more characters that'll do something to punsh you, but you can figure em out.

heh heh, veiws on this guide beat out my myspace

 

[MetaKnight0]

Almost every single character in the game has an air attack that starts-up quick enough to take advantage of the invulnerability frames. The invincibility covers the first half of a perfect edge-wavedash, if the ledgehop is made at the first possible frame, and an attack off a ledgehop ends up being faster. It might create a trade, but that means they escaped the charge.

I've tested this in competitive matches as well; the most adaptable players learnt very quickly that they could escape through tight ledgehops.

Using your assumption of frame data: 15 inv. frames, 5 frame aerial startup, and my own assumption that jumping from ledge at first possible frame is 7 frames.

00 - Grab ledge / Invulnerability kicks in
01 - Ledge lag
02 - Ledge lag
03 - Ledge lag
04 - Ledge lag
05 - Ledge lag
06 - Ledge lag
07 - Ledge lag
08 - Jump / Attack activates
09 - Attack lag
10 - Attack lag
11 - Attack lag
12 - Attack lag
13 - Attack kicks in / SBC canceled
14 - ****
15 - ****
16 - VULNERABILITY

Of course seeing as it's all a matter of a difference of experiences we've had with the technique. The fact that I've been hit out of it means that something's going on. Some reliabile frame data would be nice to have...

 

[quak]

so that gives em like what, 3 frames for a margin of error, right?

again while this is a significant amount for highly experienced players, it's still a good enough tactic to add in when i do the SBCC advanced tech section which WILL BE THIS COMING TUESDAY.

Thank god, finnally done with all my ****, and i can resume goofing off in class, wheeee!

 

[Airo]

ill do some testing my next smashfest. good discussion metaknight

 

[MetaKnight0]

I tested the ledge-hops invincibility time yesterday. It's far more substantial than 15 frames. I had Mewtwo standing on the edge on the optimum position, and charging shadowball. Then I had characters ledge-hopping immediately after they grabbed the edge.

Every single character except for Peach could jump directly through Shadowball without getting hit. The timing was fairly strict for the DJC characters, as they jump slower. The invulnerability time was enough to cover them though, and an attack is most definitely possible. I was able to pull off perfect wavedashes and every character (except Peach) had an attack fast enough to stop or trade with Shadowball.

For the fast jumpers (also usually the characters which Shadowball edge-guard works best), the margin of error is quite large. For the DJC characters, very small margin (Yoshi has a large margin of error, however, since he resists the charge anyways), but this edge-guard doesn't work well against them in the first place anyways.

 

[Tongji]

I don't understand why we are having this conversation. SBCC is a terrible edge guard, and player that is somewhat skilled will simply do one of 4 things

1. Just roll through it
2. Jump down and use a higher priority/longer range arial
3. If you are fighting a space animal prepare to get shined or fire fox
4. Jump over it

SBCC is the worst possible option when it comes to edgeguarding, I prefer to throw shadowballs and then get ready for a D-smash or a throw/U-tilt if they decide to not sweet spot. Other than that the whole idea of SBCC is just pointless against any good players. However this dosn't mean that Im trying to say the SBCC is pointless, on the contrary it is a nice grab setup once and awhile for fast fallers. Other than that SBCC is limited and is very situational at best.

Well that's just my to cents worth.

 

[quak]

hey, airo, mind if i use your reasoning in quote form in the guide?

(referring to using the SBC as an effective edgegaurd)

 

[GoldenGlove]

I would include some of MetaKnight's counter argument as well. We don't want people reading then guide then rushing off going "OMFG SBC edgeguard is teh pwnz0rz!!1!1" if there's still controversy about it (which there apparently still is).

 

[Tezuka Zone]

nice guide didnt know about battle field glitch thanks

 

[Airo]

well quak, wait till i come back from my next smash fest

 

[quak]

I would include some of MetaKnight's counter argument as well. We don't want people reading then guide then rushing off going "OMFG SBC edgeguard is teh pwnz0rz!!1!1" if there's still controversy about it (which there apparently still is).

true that, alright, i'll wait for some airo's thing, then if he let's me, i'll quote both of them.

The more info, the better right?

 

[Airo]

well i did a bit of quick testing, and frankly, the most outstanding (as in surprising) target for SBC is actually fox.

from my testing, here are are facts that i can state:
- sbc's attack frames are very fast, hence, if enemy is from REST on the edge, the following is true:
----enemy cannot double jump over it without getting hit and knocked back off
----no character has a getup attack that has the invincibility frames and speed to touch mewtwo.
- sbc's hitbox has the range to interupt some character's roll
- sbc's hitbox has the range to interupt some character's second jump
- sbc leads into shield, which protects mewtwo from all "let go and use a large range UpB" tactics. in truth, mewtwo doesnt have an edgeguard suitable for "let go and large range UpB" tactic anyways.
- sbc perfectly counters all roll and getups.


however, all characters has a good amount invincible frames the moment they grab the ledge. the invincible frame acquired that way is enough for a ledgehop aerial for most characters.
hence, SBC is particularly effective against players that play careful and pause to think each time they grab the ledge (this is not uncommon)

SBC also proves to be more affective against characters that can DJC.

i have not tested it on all characters yet.
you can test the effectiveness against fox yourself if you want.

please DO keep in mind, like all edgeguards, there are flaws.
when i say that SBC is dependable, you certainly must not presume that SBC is able to stand alone.
like edgeguarding for all moves for all charcters. edgeguard is mostly about mindgame.
so please keep in mind that SBC follows into a shield very naturally. like all of mewtwo's other edgeguard moves, SBC is very versitile and flexible.

1. Just roll through it
2. Jump down and use a higher priority/longer range arial
3. If you are fighting a space animal prepare to get shined or fire fox
4. Jump over it

heres a quick defence
1. some characters have rolls that are too short to get pass SBC without getting trapped. for characters than can, mewtwo will then throw his shadowball
2. mewtwo can shield from SBC; and you will always see this comming too. IF, the enemy has an UpB with long range, there is not much mewtwo can do ANYWAYS. mewtwo really can hardly edgeguard a roy because of his UpB. dont expect SBC to do what mewtwo's other moves cannot anyways.
3. against a firefox, shield and JCgrab, bthrow
4. some characters have double jumps that cant reach over mewtwo's SBC, for those that can, mewtwo will then throw his shadowball.


again, i do wish to confirm things at my next smashfest before i solidify my statements. dont hold my words to this post.

 

[joshisrad]

Good, but I really couldn't stand reading "segway." It's segue. Not that it detracts from the quality of what you have to say, it just diminishes the reading experience.

 

[Tongji]

Airo, I play a good fox almost daily and let me assure you, Down D or Up B off of the ledge=death. While you can shield Fire fox, good luck seeing shine coming lol. Anyway I havn't had good experiences with SBC. In my humbe oppionon there are so many more effective ways of edgeguarding, While SBC may work in some situations, there are many better things to do. Ie. Throw shadowballs, jumb out to Bair of Uair, try and use teleport to sweetspot and ledge hog, Sit on the ledge and use Down tilted F-tilt or Dtilt or Dsmash. I just think that there are so many better ways of edge guarding. Besides SBC will only deal very limited damage. In response to the "M2 will throw the shadow ball" argument, there is no possible way to rely on that. If A fox or Falco were to fire fox over you, they can INSTANTLY put up a shine. So now you have a shadowball flying right in your face, your are still recovering and bam This is not a good idea against any intelegent opponent. The sense of timeing needed to pull this off would have to be impeccable, or you just have to be fighting an idiot. If they roll through you, they can pretty much do the same, or spot doge. idk Too risky. while fighting a space animal the whole goal should be to keep them off the edge, becasue once they get back on it's like a whole new life. I just don't like taking that chance. Insted I think that the M2 community should look at another edge guarding option, that recently I have had some sucsess with. Disable. Now while this tek is probably not new I have found some recent uses for it. For example, when a character is rolling, attacking, or jumping from the ledge you can simply use disable and if they are at a high or medium % it will send them flying off the edge in an extreamly weird trejectory In my experience this suprises many of my opponents and they end up doing something stupid, like Fox illusion to the edge where they become esay targets for a D smash finish idk While I don't think that you can depend on Disable for a Rock solid edge guard I have found uses for it. Disable definatly has a big suprise element that I think should be more exploted on the edge. Sorry about the long post but once again I just want to re-state that useing SBC aganist any half way decent opponent is a foolish idea, too many cons not enough pros in my oppion. There are better alternatives.

 

[quak]

Good, but I really couldn't stand reading "segway." It's segue. Not that it detracts from the quality of what you have to say, it just diminishes the reading experience.

whoops! i'll edit them

the reason spell check didn't pick it up is cause a "segway" is the name for those personal transportation things.

good catch

 

[MetaKnight0]

I personally find Shadowball a great way to edge-guard Ganondorf. His Up-B will get hit all the time, his arm will get hit by the charge if he doesn't have perfect spacing, and if he does have perfect spacing, toss the Shadowball and edge-hog him quick.

 

[GoldenGlove]

Well, if he doesn't have perfect spacing you could just gimp him with dsmash.

 

[Airo]

Airo, I play a good fox almost daily and let me assure you, Down D or Up B off of the ledge=death. While you can shield Fire fox, good luck seeing shine coming lol. Anyway I havn't had good experiences with SBC. In my humbe oppionon there are so many more effective ways of edgeguarding, While SBC may work in some situations, there are many better things to do. Ie. Throw shadowballs, jumb out to Bair of Uair, try and use teleport to sweetspot and ledge hog, Sit on the ledge and use Down tilted F-tilt or Dtilt or Dsmash. I just think that there are so many better ways of edge guarding. Besides SBC will only deal very limited damage. In response to the "M2 will throw the shadow ball" argument, there is no possible way to rely on that. If A fox or Falco were to fire fox over you, they can INSTANTLY put up a shine. So now you have a shadowball flying right in your face, your are still recovering and bam This is not a good idea against any intelegent opponent. The sense of timeing needed to pull this off would have to be impeccable, or you just have to be fighting an idiot. If they roll through you, they can pretty much do the same, or spot doge. idk Too risky. while fighting a space animal the whole goal should be to keep them off the edge, becasue once they get back on it's like a whole new life. I just don't like taking that chance. Insted I think that the M2 community should look at another edge guarding option, that recently I have had some sucsess with. Disable. Now while this tek is probably not new I have found some recent uses for it. For example, when a character is rolling, attacking, or jumping from the ledge you can simply use disable and if they are at a high or medium % it will send them flying off the edge in an extreamly weird trejectory In my experience this suprises many of my opponents and they end up doing something stupid, like Fox illusion to the edge where they become esay targets for a D smash finish idk While I don't think that you can depend on Disable for a Rock solid edge guard I have found uses for it. Disable definatly has a big suprise element that I think should be more exploted on the edge. Sorry about the long post but once again I just want to re-state that useing SBC aganist any half way decent opponent is a foolish idea, too many cons not enough pros in my oppion. There are better alternatives.

well.. im on British Columbia's PR myself and someone on rank 5 fell for it and drove him nuts the first time ive used it on him. SBC is by FAR better than disable =.=

SBC's main purpose is not to push your enemy off the stage or deal damage. the main purpose is so that you hav a dependable setup to launch your shadowball, which ultimately is a kill.

and how in the world does the fox you play against manage to firefox OVER you and "immediately" use DownB.

its quite logical the SBC would NOT be used if your recovering target is high enough above the stage to "firefox" over you.
it is logic that SBC is used on enemies that can barely make it onto the stage, and hence, forces them use the ledge.

from the ledge, fox has no way of getting pass you. neither can he "shine" you.

 

[Tongji]

I will try and get a vid up of my friend doing it to me some time in the next two weeks, idk I just don't think that it is the best way. Ill do some testing sometime in the next week and get back to you with hopefully a new persepective. Because honestly I really havn't looked into SBC as an edge guard, just used it once in awhile with dismal effects Well ill look into it ok?

 

[Airo]

sbc certainly isnt a multipurpose edgeguard that replaces his other options.

dtilt, ftilts, grabs, nairs, bairs, dsmash, fsmash, sunc, and even dair. these are all dependable edgeguards.

sbc though situational is no exclusive to only tight situations. its a bit more dependable than it looks. the thing is that sbc sets up perfecly for a full charged shadowball, which ultimately IS a kill at high percentages.