Official The 1.1.5 project

Absol

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#1
This thread will be dedicated to evolving our new sheik. For all those who are going to continue using sheik I implore you to pay it forward and help find data for her meta. This nothing short of another to do list, except this time were busting ass. I want the motivation of 1.1.5 Sheiks souls into this project. Because we're not finished yet. In the early meta of this character the sheik boards were undoubtedly the most organized, resourceful, and studious compared to any other character. It's time for this next generation, and I want the same overzealous attitude we had. We've got lazy lately.

Because everyone and their mother is worried about sheiks potential to kill, let's start with this first. Some of this information is probably lost in the fourms, and if so post it here.

Old fashion kill set ups we need the numbers for.

-ftilt to uair (50-50)
*relies on hitting opponent to mess up DI. Do not test DI for this
-tipper dtilt to uair (True)
-from ledge, full hop fair to bouncing fish (only works on tall characters)
-fthrow to bouncing fish kill set up? (50-50?)
*not even sure if this is a thing. Test between the opponent buffering jump, and the opponent airdodging to find info. With DI away of course.
-uthrow to uair? (50-50?)
*4 frames laggier than dthrow, but the DI "cone" is skinnier that people can't get away as easy. My assumption would assume this will work if uthrow is stale. Possibly if it takes up the first two or three spots in cache. (Fake and gay. Not legit. Be free to prove me wrong)

Testing every character with no rage vs percent is the traditional way we have tested. With a error of margin due to rage and DI.
 
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Absol

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#2
Reservation for future data
___________________________

Note. New fair has less range, but allows sheik to scrap taller characters from the ground easier with full hop fair with more frame adv due to her being close to her target.

Ex. Prepatch FH fair could not scrap ryu up from the ground. FH fair in grounded opponents leads to a true bouncing fish kill at 85%~, and leads to 50-50s once out of true combo range.
___________________________

Summary of friendlies today: There is a good percent around 100-120 as no rage sheik that you can d throw 50/50 with bouncing fish to kill off the sides. Everyone talked about b throw stuff being better, it kinda is. If they di incorrectly you can mixup immediate b fish, delay bf, vanish, or empty hop up smash depending on the situation. Up air works too. I'm really bad with the new f throw so I can't say much there. There are a lot of new angles for needles to bfish that haven't been abused yet so I'll be trying to use that more & try to explain it to you guys. New fair/bair 50/50s will be brough to light, using up air to catch landings so that way you can keep stage control, and using needles > bfish to catch people's 2 frames is where I will be pushing Sheik's meta. Being combo heavy will be very hard, but it's still very possible.
Powershield d tilt & turn around d tilt is very good too, along with walking d tilt. D tilt has a lot of confirms and will alsoworries
ense with the other kind of meta I'm pushing: crouching in neutral. You can't reliably dash backwards, but you can nair if you have c stick set to attack and do a diagonal and can do uncrouch walk shield, or the boost grab out of crouch. It'll be hard, but Sheik's not in such a bad position. We just have to do new things and can't camp shield so much. Well, we can bc stage control but we also have to edge guard properly off of that. No worries
- Void
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
#3
fthrow to bouncing fish kill set up? (50-50?)
Sadly,it's easily escapable.
False tried it with Mr.R on Twitch...

I also found something ?
If the opponent DI Away the F-Throw (in fear of BF / UpAir) but you B-Throw them,they will DI the B-Throw In which means that you can get a Bouncing Fish !

I'm gonna get the % for F-Tilt UpAir,and maybe do others later :)
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
#5
F-Tilt to UpAir (No DI,Training Mode,Final Destination)

:4mario:: 121% - 141%
:4luigi:: 114% - 131%
:4peach:: 113% - 132%
:4bowser:: 142% - 161%
:4yoshi: : 119 % - 141%
:rosalina: : 106% - 120%
:4bowserjr: : 128% - 153%
:4wario2: : 127% - 156%
:4gaw: : 102% - 118%
:4dk: : 141% - 166%
:4diddy: : 123% - 149%
:4link: : 129% - 154%
:4zelda: : 111% - 132%
:4sheik: : 112% - 132%
:4ganondorf: : 134% - 154%
:4tlink:: 114% - 137%
:4samus: : 129% - 148%
:4zss: : 115% - 136%
:4pit: : 119% - 142%
:4palutena:: 113% - 135%
:4marth:: 122% - 149%
:4myfriends:: 134% - 161%
:4robinm:/:4robinf::125% - 144%
:4kirby:: 106% - 128%
:4dedede:: 151% - 177%
:4metaknight:: 114% - 136%
:4littlemac:: 122% - 147%
:4fox:: 114% - 137%
:4falco:: 118% - 137%
:4pikachu:: 107% - 135%
:4charizard:: 128% - 157%
:4lucario:: 128% - 159%
:4jigglypuff:: 95% - 112%
:4greninja:: 118% - 142%
:4duckhunt:: 122% - 148%
:4rob:: 125% - 162%
:4ness:: 113% - 138%
:4falcon:: 133% - 161%
:4villager:/:4villagerf:: 118% - 142%
:4olimar:: 107% - 132%
:4wiifit:/:4wiifitm:: 118% - 140%
:4drmario:: 120% - 147%
:4darkpit:: 119% - 146%
:4lucina:: 122% - 148%
:4shulk:: 125% - 152%
:4pacman:: 114% - 137%
:4megaman:: 130% - 157%
:4sonic:: 119% - 140%
:4miibrawl:: 123% - 152%
:4miisword:: 121% - 145%
:4miigun:: 118% - 145%
:4mewtwo:: 107% - 131%
:4lucas:: 113% - 140%
:4feroy:: 130% - 158%
:4ryu:: 127% - 157%
:4cloud:: 129% - 158%
:4corrin:/:4corrinf:: 123% - 155%
:4bayonetta:/:4bayonetta2:: 121% - 146%
 
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Absol

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#6
Updated extra data about sheiks new fair in the reserved data

Matt could you list how long the kill combos works. Like the window?

Also please set the CPU to control. In training mode the Stop option still has them D.Ing
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
#7
Updated extra data about sheiks new fair in the reserved data

Matt could you list how long the kill combos works. Like the window?

Also please set the CPU to control. In training mode the Stop option still has them D.Ing
I will do it later / tomorrow if i have time :)
 
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#11
Sheik discord is testing upthrow kill confirms. With Good DI away and buffered jump we're seeing whether up air catches and kills. Pony on discord has been doing a lot of work labbing with someone
 

WondrousMoose

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#12
See, this is how to respond to nerfs. Sure, there was the initial shock, but people are already accepting it and figuring out what we can do with it.

Love you guys; keep it up. I'll do my part as soon as I'm back to my Wii U.
 
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HartG21

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#13
Sadly,it's easily escapable.
False tried it with Mr.R on Twitch...

I also found something ?
If the opponent DI Away the F-Throw (in fear of BF / UpAir) but you B-Throw them,they will DI the B-Throw In which means that you can get a Bouncing Fish !

I'm gonna get the % for F-Tilt UpAir,and maybe do others later :)
I have noticed this too. If they DI for forward throw and I back throw i can get follow ups off it. Unfortunately I feel like a good opponent can react to back throw (in other words if I get the grab they can DI for f-throw but once they see I'm going for b-throw they can adjust their DI accordingly) Can someone test this?
 

HartG21

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#14
Also has anyone tested t see if the needle range nerf affect the needles to BF combo at kill percents?
 

Absol

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#17
Yeah. Some people like to get YouTube views with fancy combos that aren't legit. Just grab a friend....or your foot. And buffer jump and airdodging after ftilt. The 50-50 stops when they can jump out of it.
 

exnecross

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#18
It is totally possible for a good player to react to the back throw animation and DI away. There is no 50/50 anymore, I wish people would stop bringing it up (even Void). Online it might be a bit harder to react to backthrow mixup, but without online delay it's more than doable. Pummeling and then throwing them whichever direction puts them furthest off the stage is our best option now.

I guess to add to that, Utilt to BF is still totally valid (regardless of DI) and should be a more tempting option moving forward.
 
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Absol

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#19
It is totally possible for a good player to react to the back throw animation and DI away. There is no 50/50 anymore, I wish people would stop bringing it up (even Void). Online it might be a bit harder to react to backthrow mixup, but without online delay it's more than doable. Pummeling and then throwing them whichever direction puts them furthest off the stage is our best option now.

I guess to add to that, Utilt to BF is still totally valid (regardless of DI) and should be a more tempting option moving forward.
Would you be okay snatching the numbers for it?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
#20
Glad to see people actually moving forward.
Absol Absol I've already started testing UTilt > Bouncing Fish (since the "to do list" by Tree) but not complete, I'll try my best to have numbers out by this upcoming week.
 
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#22
'Sup Sheiks

Void wrote a writeup about 1.1.5 Sheik in the Sheik Discord group. He also said that he wanted someone else to copy-paste it here because Smashboards mobile isn't working for him for whatever reason.

Void - Today at 9:03 PM:
Summary of friendlies today: There is a good percent around 100-120 as no rage sheik that you can d throw 50/50 with bouncing fish to kill off the sides. Everyone talked about b throw stuff being better, it kinda is. If they di incorrectly you can mixup immediate b fish, delay bf, vanish, or empty hop up smash depending on the situation. Up air works too. I'm really bad with the new f throw so I can't say much there. There are a lot of new angles for needles to bfish that haven't been abused yet so I'll be trying to use that more & try to explain it to you guys. New fair/bair 50/50s will be brough to light, using up air to catch landings so that way you can keep stage control, and using needles > bfish to catch people's 2 frames is where I will be pushing Sheik's meta. Being combo heavy will be very hard, but it's still very possible.
Powershield d tilt & turn around d tilt is very good too, along with walking d tilt. D tilt has a lot of confirms and will also make sense with the other kind of meta I'm pushing: crouching in neutral. You can't reliably dash backwards, but you can nair if you have c stick set to attack and do a diagonal and can do uncrouch walk shield, or the boost grab out of crouch. It'll be hard, but Sheik's not in such a bad position. We just have to do new things and can't camp shield so much. Well, we can bc stage control but we also have to edge guard properly off of that. No worries
 

Mister_heath

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#23
Sheik's frame data still looks great it never left. What is missing is the kill confirm. From what I have gathered racking up damage shouldn't be a problem. Sakurai took away fthrow 2 bfish, but there is more optimization. What is hurting is the kill (which you guys are covering) fthrow into the 50/50 is not too reliable as for it requires an immediate dash forward to a full hop. Me and my friend tested this and I finally was able to get the 50/50 around 160 to 170ish percent. IMO that's to high of a risk. But what do you guys think of the possibility of using sheik's grenades when edge guarding as a potential kill option to give us something else. I don't know if any sheik's use this now because she has one of the best recoveries in the game now and still.
 

exnecross

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#24
Sheik's frame data still looks great it never left. What is missing is the kill confirm. From what I have gathered racking up damage shouldn't be a problem. Sakurai took away fthrow 2 bfish, but there is more optimization. What is hurting is the kill (which you guys are covering) fthrow into the 50/50 is not too reliable as for it requires an immediate dash forward to a full hop. Me and my friend tested this and I finally was able to get the 50/50 around 160 to 170ish percent. IMO that's to high of a risk. But what do you guys think of the possibility of using sheik's grenades when edge guarding as a potential kill option to give us something else. I don't know if any sheik's use this now because she has one of the best recoveries in the game now and still.
There. is. no. 50/50. Especially at 160%. I don't mean to be rude but I keep seeing this and it's not true. 50/50 implies that both the jump and air dodge can be covered. Jumps cannot be covered anymore.
 

Mister_heath

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#25
There. is. no. 50/50. Especially at 160%. I don't mean to be rude but I keep seeing this and it's not true. 50/50 implies that both the jump and air dodge can be covered. Jumps cannot be covered anymore.
I understand and respect that, should have never thrown it out there, but it just came from labbing and finding ways to kill. We are only 2 going on 3 days into this patch. We may have to use are frame data as an advantage. But let's continue labbing what others are trying to do. This patch is; going show the real sheik mains, and show truly what sheik can do when faced with adversity.
 

_Tree

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#26
Gonna make this official due to how impactful the nerfs were. Dunno if it'll replace the 'to-do' list but it's important that this stuff is tested. I'll probably put something up on my channel to bring people in to help out.

I'm glad people aren't leaving the character. It's good that we're finding alternatives.

<3 Absol
 
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gsmVoiD

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#27
Saying that there is no 50/50 anymore doesn't help advance much. An up throw 50/50 exists, though very situational. There are also other "50/50s", so let's refrain from using "the" before 50/50 and be more specific.

An obscure kill setup I have is walking d tilt to bouncing fish when on the edge of a stage/hitting someone after you've trumped them. Works at like 80-90~ haven't tested much but it's enough to promote a scare in people meaning you can also bait an airdodge and bfish/dj needles > bfish.
 

exnecross

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#28
Saying that there is no 50/50 anymore doesn't help advance much. An up throw 50/50 exists, though very situational. There are also other "50/50s", so let's refrain from using "the" before 50/50 and be more specific.

An obscure kill setup I have is walking d tilt to bouncing fish when on the edge of a stage/hitting someone after you've trumped them. Works at like 80-90~ haven't tested much but it's enough to promote a scare in people meaning you can also bait an airdodge and bfish/dj needles > bfish.
When is uthrow a 50/50? I thought that video was proven false.
 

WondrousMoose

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#29
I think that we should keep in mind the good options that we had before and still have. Most of these have been mentioned above, but rather than reading through all the responses so far:
  • Weak Nair > BF
  • Ftilt > Uair
  • Dtilt > BF/Uair (sweetspot)
  • Needles > BF
  • Bair stage-spikes
  • Awesome off-stage game that wasn't touched at all this patch
  • Frame 3 Nair
  • Low-percent throw combos - we can still get damage off of grabs
  • USmash sweetspots through platforms
  • Utilt > BF
  • Ftilt > Ftilt/Fair
  • Fair > BF
  • Grenade > BF
  • VoiD combo/PP combos
We'll find new methods of racking up damage and killing. It's important to remember that throws weren't the only source of Sheik's power; she still has speed and frame data better than almost everyone else.
 

smashPony

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#30
When is uthrow a 50/50? I thought that video was proven false.
"When" is the wrong question to ask. The upthrow "50/50" [isnt an actual 50/50] works on only 4 characters that ive found during my testing thus far. UpThrow up air requires that certain conditions be met.

-Fall speed
-Gravity
-Air acceleration
-Double jump heights acceleration [dont know how else to word it]
-Double jump height

A few of us in the Sheik discord have been doing some testing starting yesterday and so far we have SOME results but not much. it will take quite some time to complete everything but when we're finished well post the google doc that includes the data here on the boards.
 

exnecross

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#31
"When" is the wrong question to ask. The upthrow "50/50" [isnt an actual 50/50] works on only 4 characters that ive found during my testing thus far. UpThrow up air requires that certain conditions be met.

-Fall speed
-Gravity
-Air acceleration
-Double jump heights acceleration [dont know how else to word it]
-Double jump height

A few of us in the Sheik discord have been doing some testing starting yesterday and so far we have SOME results but not much. it will take quite some time to complete everything but when we're finished well post the google doc that includes the data here on the boards.
By "when" I just meant under what conditions, such as which characters / rage / %, but thanks.
 

Mister_heath

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#32
By "when" I just meant under what conditions, such as which characters / rage / %, but thanks.
Just stay positive man. I know this nerf isn't the brightest of things and it messed everyone up. We can all just sit here and point fingers and complain about how or why is this happening. But just like WondrousMoose WondrousMoose stated. We still have a lot of tools. But we all have to play a part and research other effective moves that will work. I'm just really glad to see others that have not given up on this character!
 

Zorasknight

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#33
So I was one of the people helping Pony in the Sheik Discord, UpAir out of UpThrow is possible, and actually a true followup (not a 50/50) on a very specific set of the cast at even tighter percents. We are working on making a list of characters and percents now, but it's looking pretty dead. All tests are done with multiple di paterns air dodge and double jump through many tests. Unfortunately that makes it slow as hell. For now Falcon, Ike, Corrin can be hit. Sheik, Ryu, Metaknight are safe on Double jump. Most true combo at 130+. But I would say wait until the spreadsheet is a bit farther along.
 
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HartG21

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#34
'Sup Sheiks

Void wrote a writeup about 1.1.5 Sheik in the Sheik Discord group. He also said that he wanted someone else to copy-paste it here because Smashboards mobile isn't working for him for whatever reason.

Void - Today at 9:03 PM:
Thank you for the message. Could you possibly send me the link to the sheik discord?
 

Mister_heath

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#35
I have a testimony I would like to announce. I had a tournament tonight, and I finished 3rd out of a 36 man tournament. I used sheik and I soon realized after my first match the edge that I had with her being her speed and frame data. Though it was going to take more precise moves to land the kills I was going to need. I found that in very situational times I was able to captalize on ftilt to up air ( had to bait air dodge). Also ftilt to an immediate up air depending on if they didn't di. Also fthrow into either upsmash or vanish (again very situational). I saw with the forward throw I baited an attack forcing an air dodge into an upsmash. Another way I was able to score kills were with the grenades using them as another option to kill at high percents. Now I did come into this tournament with a secondary Ness. But regardless of that I found myself playing really patient with sheik having to look for opportunities in my mu's. Fair was able to get me out of a jam when pressured. Dthrow to vanish still allowed me to put on damage for some reason (%'s around 80 to 100). Out of habit I went for it saw any opportunity given and tried to capitalize. I know most of this doesn't help (and i do apologize for how long this is. But I just found some of my kill throws in situational events. The characters I played against with sheik were:
Greninja (no kill throws used)
Luigi (no kill throws, ftilt to up air, baited air dodge)
Mario ( ftilt to up air, baited air dodge)
Sheik (fthrow to vanish) around 90ish %
Dthrow to vanish worked on her for the most part.
Falcon ftilt into vanish
If any of this helps this new metagame of sheik that would be awesome. I know it's not hard evidence, but they were results I had with playing her in a tournament.
P.s sorry this is so long.
 

thehard

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#36
I'm not a Sheik player but I like threads like these. Good work.

To potentially add something, Mr. R used jab jab-fair on Ally today at Midwest Mayhem catching his jump at very high percents for the stock. Viable you think?
 

ShinRamen

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#37
I was thinking the exact same thing as void with regards to crouching more at high %, and using crouch walk dtilt - crouching gives us a VERY reduced hurtbox, and if done whilst crouch walking forwards, even non-tipper d tilt combos/50/50s into up air at kill %.

Also void, how about BF off the stage wall to catch the 2 frame you were talking about a while back? I've been getting reasonable success with it on some chars, and it should see more use since edgeguards are gonna make up more of our kills.

EDIT

Just want to add that, though I have almost no clue about the up throw stuff, I am almost certain that there are no 50/50 kill setups from down/forward/back throw (unless someone comes up with seriously creative stuff). A lot of people have been saying there is an 'f throw d throw DI mixup', but I'm sure this is nonsense as holding the stick away is DI away for both throws, and makes up air impossible to connect at kill %. Back throw of course requires opposite DI, but is perfectly react-able in my experience. Also, I don't think any supposed 50/50 involving b fish to take the stock is real, since the player on the receiving end can react to the immediate b fish and airdodge, rather than guess. I'd love to be proven wrong on all these points though.
 
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#38
If something registers in training mode as a true combo, it will be a 50/50 at the very least. (As training mode doesnt take into account airdodges)
 

ArikadoSD

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#39
Uthrow is utterly useless outside of putting opponents directly above you (and not in uair range, it's too low for them to even be hit by full hop uair), and dthrow is better at that. don't use it.
 
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