That dumb thread I made about the Infinite Second Jump That Turned Out To Be Useless

[Trillion]

Hey Sonic Mainers, I pulled this from the Brawl Tactical Discussion and posted it in here because I wanted everyone's attention to be brought to this immediately. It has been discovered that every character has a kind of infinite jump. I did not discover this just to make that clear. SamuraiPanda has researched it and I have supplied his explanation about it below.

Okay, so I finally figured it out. Basically, the infinite second jump is buffering your jump from your aerial attack AS you're landing. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, go try doing a full hop rising Fair with Marth, and buffer the second jump from the Fair. When you buffer correctly, you are inputting the jump command near the end of the Fair animation, and when the animation ends you instantly jump. Take note of that timing. The ISJ is just timing your aerial and the buffered jump so when you do the aerial in the second jump and you buffer the jump as you land on the stage, the jump will execute as the second jump completely skipping the landing animation and first jump altogether. If you time it incorrectly, you'll end up landing first then jumping, or not jumping at all.

Why does it do this? Well, I assume the engine is reading the different inputs at the same time. The game must think that at that one moment in time you are both simultaneously on the ground while still being in the air. Meaning it refreshes your jumps (because it reads you as being on the ground) but it does the second jump instead of the first (because if you jump while you are in the air, you should be doing the second jump).

As for who can do it and what aerials you can do it with, well, I think the best way to test it is using the full hop rising aerial to the buffered jump method that I described above. If it is possible to do the ISJ, then that means that the length of their second jump must be enough for the character to perform the aerial and buffer the jump. Some slow attacks, like Ganon's Fair, can't buffer the jump from his Fair in the entire length of the full hop, nor his second jump, thus he cannot do the ISJ with his Fair. But he can do the ISJ with his Dair (I did it once after trying for 10 minutes), which seems promising (btw, I had to change to the A stick to do that so I wouldn't fast fall doing the Dair). In addition, this should theoretically be possible for all aerial B attacks as well, and is simply a matter of timing. We already know some people, like Bowser and Kirby, can do this with some of their B attacks with very easy timing. Oh yeah, you can also do this while fast falling too, so that could make the timing a bit easier, and make the ISJ even faster, for some characters with attacks that can do that (I was able to do this FFISJ with Wario's Fair).

Note: I just realized after I typed that paragraph up that I was referring to being able to do the ISJ with a single attack over and over again. But if you just want to do one single ISJ, you could just time an attack that has alot of lag so that the jump buffers at the right time when you land. But you can't repeat that one attack again with the ISJ.

Note 2: I've also forgotten to mention that if you tap the jump button twice very fast, you'll nearly instantly do the second jump from your standing animation. So you can do the ISJ right off the bat if you can time it.

In order to do this consistently, you will have to learn the buffer times of you character's attacks VERY well. That is likely the only requirement to do this. Can it be done? Maybe. But its difficult. Doing this consistently requires better timing than L-canceling and Wavedashing put together. Fast falling may make this a bit easier (as you're controlling the timing yourself), but I didn't extensively test it.

As for applications of the ISJ and/or the FFISJ, well, assuming you can become very consistent at timing this perfectly, it could possibly bring juggling to Brawl, a new way to approach, or a great way to avoid getting grabbed (IC's changrab is scary :/), among other possibilities. Could it change the metagame completely? Maybe. Of course, this is only if its even possible to master this technique.


Although I do have to say that this is one of the few true advanced techniques that has been discovered thus far. By the way, I apologize if this was hard to understand or follow along anywhere. I'm quite tired and I shouldn't really be spending my time doing this right now, so I'm in a bit of a rush.

I believe that if this technique can be mastered that Sonic will benefit from it immensely. Consider the possibilities of being able to infinitely jump while using fair or bair. A few fairs chained together could rack up quite a lot of damage and being able to land successive bairs would lead to quick KO's which is of course Sonic's biggest problem. Think of how easy it would be to kill with uair combos. Just uair juggle and then eventually youd have to take the split second to land and then uair to double jumped uair to spring uair for another potentially easy kill. I recall Mew2King posting something about the nair being a good setup for a jab lock. Infinite jumping with the nair would mean that Sonic could easily start a jab lock.

Let's get on this thing and see what we can do with it to make Sonic Top Tier!!!

 

[Seventh Sword]

I still can't get the timing down for this, has anyone else managed to?

 

[Umby]

Unless he vaguely mentioned it in his statement, he should have realized that if he does buffer the jump upon landing, all you need is to tap the jump button twice at the end of the aerial animation as you land. Using this method I've obtained some minimal accuracy with it.

edit: scratch that, he's talking about a different effect entirely, though what I've just said still works, though you'll land first.

edit2: I did it once with Marth's fair. Timing is tight as ****.

eidt3: I did it once with Sonic's bair. Timing is tight as ****.

 

[Trillion]

Ok I basically needed to scrap that whole post cuz i messed up slightly in my vids and people were not paying attention to my edit.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic's B-air has IASA frames, I'm pretty sure.

That's probably why you can do this "infinite jump" effect, which looks alot more like you're just doing a double jump (tapping twice) as soon as you land

I'm still not quite understanding what makes this move so 'good', unless it really cancels out the landing animation like it would for Bowser's side-B.

I'll mess around with it later, just to check ._.;

 

[Trillion]

this has nothing to do with the bair having IASA frames. This technique applies to most character if not ALL characters. As I said my video is incorrect. What I was doing was a completely different technique that I accidently discovered while trying to do the infinite jump and it may have its own uses. The thing I WAS doing was NOT a double tapped jump, I was just pressing up on the analog stick once and holding it up afterward. It is exactly like Bowser's Side-B when you do the real thing.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Too bad this doesn't make it so the opponent is actually in hitstun.

 

[memphischains]

i'm confused how this will help

 

[Tenki]

well, if it were like Bowser's Side-B where you can interrupt it on landing at any point during the animation with a jump, then a falling F-air>rising F-air combo against a grounded opponent would be pretty evil.

I doubt still.

 

[R4ZE]

so.... basicly sonic can waste his second jump when we would normally only have used his first jump, and would this even cancel the landing lag frames on fair? if not i fail to see how this would help at all.

I not trying to be rude, I appogize if i sound that way. But just let me know if I'm missing somthing.

 

[Espy Rose]

Haven't been around for awhile, and I'm confused on some of the lingo in SP's post.

What do you mean by "buffering the jump"?

And how exactly do you do it?

Sorry, I'm just confused.

 

[SonicLucario]

Haven't been around for awhile, and I'm confused on some of the lingo in SP's post.

What do you mean by "buffering the jump"?

And how exactly do you do it?

Sorry, I'm just confused.

Glad I'm not alone?

 

[Trillion]

the point of the technique is that you do not suffer the lag from the landing animation. you have to make sure that the attack would auto cancel and then "buffer" a jump is basically like time your jump into the end of the animation of the attack so that you jump just after it ends. this would make it a lot easier to chain together aerials across the stage. if you need more explanation, then check out the thread in the Tactical Discussion area. they also have a vid there showing how to correctly do the technique with marth.

 

[TwinkleToes]

One of the obscure benefits of using Sonic is that he has virtually no landing lag-- so any time you'd be able to use this it seems like you wouldn't really need to.

Plus, Sonic's aerial DI gets weakened when he does this.

 

[Umby]

Alright here's my breakdown:

For those confused, what he means by "buffering" is a reference to the Wii reading your command inputs. In this case, if you were to put a jump command at the end of a full hopped aerial, it would read both at the same time, ergo, "buffering" the jump command to be performed even though you input it ahead of time.

As far is this Infinite Second Jump being game changing, it could depend on the character. First of all, this doesn't seem to become "infinite" unless the aerial being used is extremely quick. From my analysis, unless you can auto-cancel a move normally from an instant double jump, infinitely doing a second jump afterwards is going to be impossible. Think about Bowser's infinite jump with his side B and how/why it works. Unless it can operate within a time frame like that, it's not going to be infinite, though you could perform an extra aerial consecutively from another.

In Sonic's case, the only thing you can chain is bair (theoretically; I haven't been able to chain these with ISJ yet). Even uair just lasts a bit too long (unless the timing is even tighter when using uair; I haven't been able to chain any with ISJ either, but it would seem impossible).

Additionally, as TwinkleToes stated, Sonic's DI is weakened, so it might not even be possible to chain certain aerials very well even if it is possible.

aka: It's probably not worth stressing over.

 

[Espy Rose]

Alright here's my breakdown:

For those confused, what he means by "buffering" is a reference to the Wii reading your command inputs. In this case, if you were to put a jump command at the end of a full hopped aerial, it would read both at the same time, ergo, "buffering" the jump command to be performed even though you input it ahead of time.

As far is this Infinite Second Jump being game changing, it could depend on the character. First of all, this doesn't seem to become "infinite" unless the aerial being used is extremely quick. From my analysis, unless you can auto-cancel a move normally from an instant double jump, infinitely doing a second jump afterwards is going to be impossible. Think about Bowser's infinite jump with his side B and how/why it works. Unless it can operate within a time frame like that, it's not going to be infinite, though you could perform an extra aerial consecutively from another.

In Sonic's case, the only thing you can chain is bair (theoretically; I haven't been able to chain these with ISJ yet). Even uair just lasts a bit too long (unless the timing is even tighter when using uair; I haven't been able to chain any with ISJ either, but it would seem impossible).

Additionally, as TwinkleToes stated, Sonic's DI is weakened, so it might not even be possible to chain certain aerials very well even if it is possible.

aka: It's probably not worth stressing over.

After reading this, I fail to see a reason to use this for Sonic.

The reason he works so well in the air is because he can run to any position in the level very fast, then approach from any direction.

That, and most of his aerials have very insignificant landing lag if done correctly anyways.

I think I'll just get me a reclinable chair, a umbrella drink, and watch all the other Sonic mains try to figure this out. If it works, then I'll try it myself.

It just seems like a waste of time to me.

 

[Trillion]

Sorry guys, I really thought this was going to be something amazing from the explanations I was getting in the original post in the Tactical Discussion. I guess I jumped the gun on that one. It really is rather difficult to do this properly and even when you do, the amount of lag is saves is soo small that it hardly is even worth the effort. Perhaps sometime in the future someone could find out how to actually make this more useful, but until then don't worry about it. Sorry again everyone.

 

[memphischains]

lol. this is kinda funny

 

[Trillion]

yeah i feel rather dumb now

 

[memphischains]

to be honest, you should

but now you know. the brain thing you have is useful sometimes

 

[Trillion]

well i got all excited cuz everyone including SamuraiPanda (who to me is like really important dude) was like saying how amazing it was and then i was like woah less lag with aerials would mean easier sonic kills, that would be sweeet!!!1!!one! but then it turned out to be very hard and not even that beneficial so i got all excited over nothing

 

[memphischains]

lololololol

 

[Umby]

SamuraiPanda's discoveries are generaly overrated. I'd like if alot people would start testing them out and applying them to practical situations before going "Wow SamuraiPanda, this is a great discovery and it actually might break the game! Can I suck your dick?"

 

[Trillion]

yeah i fail epically at posting i guess....

 

[memphischains]

well, the stuff panda has discover has been useful in understanding the mechanics of brawl, and how the game should be played, but yeah they are a bit buffed because he has a red name and everyone knows him because SMYN.

Like, the dash pivot cancel is just attacking while sliding. nothing really special, but because he said something about it it was a big deal. but it did point out that you can attack while sliding, which isn't completely obvious.

he pointed out the mechanics of b-sticking, which was cool, but blown up.

just don't read something and believe it because someone with a purple or a red name says something about it.

panda is a cool dude from the interactions i have had with him, but listening to his opinion because hes a mod and was on SMYN is a bad reason to listen to him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*pats on back*

Its okay.

 

[Espy Rose]

panda is a cool dude from the interactions i have had with him, but listening to his opinion because hes a mod and was on SMYN is a bad reason to listen to him.

This.
This.
This.
And more of This.

I don't see why everyone blows whatever he says out of proportion.

Also, stop picking on magnificentmarth, he's learned his lesson.