Video Thread

[Jr555]

So what do I mean by ground game? Dtilt, jab and grab. As for grabs I counted like 2 ATTEMPTS TOTAL between the 2 sets, one of which was a failed tech chase from the previous grab. I know it's hard for gaw to get grabs, but they are so crucial to land, you have to find a way, and funnily enough jab and dtilt can help you so much. Dtilt is ESPECIALLY crucial vs pika, because pika has such quick aerials he can really contest you in your comfort zone (uair to nair was getting you a lot as you know), so sometimes it's a good idea to stay grounded, empty hop or SH aerials and follow up with dtilts. If Pika thinks he can just run up to you and RaR uair, you need to show him that dtilt will be there ready to stuff him... And a lot of the time dtilt will be DI'd in such a way that they will be knocked onto the ground and you can read a get up with a grab, or w.e you feel is appropriate. Jab can be used to interrupt things and then can link to grab (this is not a true combo) if they don't react fast enough (this happens a lot, believe me). Other than that in regards to pika you did really good, and lots of the problems came from him just reading you/out playing you.

EDIT: I want to add on edgeguarding DK. It's tricky as GaW cause you don't want to stale your fair, yet that's really the only move that solidly puts him where you want him. Well actually this isn't true, there is another option, and that's upB. What you do is you position yourself below and away from DK , and then upB diagonally into him which will send him very little up, and a lot back. Sometimes this will kill straight up, but most often he;s just forced to upB again. So you drift back to the ledge, ledge drop and do it again.... and again... and again, for as long as you want. Actually if you do it right DK cannot recover, but the thing is eventually you'll mess up the timing and DK will get just enough more distance he'll make it back to the ledge before you can connect your upB. Also keep in mind that since upB stales, if it didn't kill the first time, it will not kill for the duration of the edgeguard, so you're gonna want to fair or dair at some point to finish him off. This is the best way to edgeguard DK as GaW.

Both of these things I'm really happy you brought up. The first one mostly. Ok, so there are a few sets I played that might not be uploaded to our Youtube channel as they weren't very hype, but I played against a Toon Link who isn't one of our top players, and like with almost every set I play against players of medium to lower caliber, I land some pretty key damage and KOs out of consecutive Dthrow reads (3 stocked him game one with about 40% and a Usmash coming from dthrow mind games on 2nd stock). That being said, against the faster players, I CANNOT see the opportunities to grab. When I watch your vids I notice a lot of jab to dtilt and jab to grab mixed up interchangeably, as well as just straight up grabs. So why do I always feel so slow going in for grabs against our top players?

In regards to the second comment, are you saying I could just run off the ledge and upB in front of DK and it will beat his Copter recover straight up? If so this is immensely beneficial news.

Really, thanks again, the other comments you had are very important to me as well but I've been considering the things I quoted in this comment a lot over the last year or so, and have wanted to get a bit more understanding of them for a long time. I'd also like to ask you more about neutral game, but that can wait.

 

[Alphicans]

Yes that is what I am saying about DK. You gotta space it and time it right so you can drift back to ledge and have time to do it again.

 

[Jr555]

That's pretty amazing, sad I didn't know that a while ago, been playing DKs in this province forever.

So yeah, can you guys give me some insight on making time for grabs? How do I see them in a fast paced match?

 

[Jr555]

^Ignore that post, I watched a really good tutorial from zero and I understand grab game a lot more now.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Got second in doubles yesterday. Random match from yesterday so you can get a taste of what our victims went through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjQLUnr4nI

 

[Jr555]

Ok so I said to ignore my post previously, but the problem has arisen yet again. Why am I always getting hit going for the grab even though there's grab armor ? How do I make use of grab armor effectively? Will upload a vid of Zhao bodying me yet again with his Luigi (I don't understand why this is a +3, I can't play this matchup right at all).

 

[Alphicans]

First off we don't +3 luigi haha, it's more like +1. Some people even make the claim it's close to even, but I definitely think we win solidly enough. Also.... Don't rely on grab armor really haha. I can't tell you any specific mechanics about it, but like abusing grab armor is not part of the current brawl metagame at all tbh.

 

[Jr555]

Ok that's all reassuring. It's pretty obvious to me that Zhao has been playing for a lot longer, and has played in way higher competitive levels than me, but I've always heard we wall out Luigi very effectively and I can never seem to pull it off. It could be possible I don't know how to DI his hits to avoid getting combo'd too.

Mentioning the grab armor thing got me to go back and rewatch that video. I had the whole thing mixed up entirely, so rewatching the video definitely changed my knowledge for the better.

 

[Sar]

Grab armor is a little more useful for MK because his dash grab is a viable option. Our dashgrab is pretty awful, whereas mk's has much more range and much less ending lag. That means he can initiate the grab from much father away/much earlier and therefore activate the grab armor earlier.
The real trick with our grab is being able to get in close enough to make it work. Using it after landing the weak hits of nair/bair works like a charm for me.

 

[Jr555]

Grab armor is a little more useful for MK because his dash grab is a viable option. Our dashgrab is pretty awful, whereas mk's has much more range and much less ending lag. That means he can initiate the grab from much father away/much earlier and therefore activate the grab armor earlier.
The real trick with our grab is being able to get in close enough to make it work. Using it after landing the weak hits of nair/bair works like a charm for me.

Yeah I was aware of the difference in dash grab with MK vs us. I pretty much figure if I'm running in for a grab it should be safe enough that I can pivot grab, but finding those walk up grabs or follow ups does escape me, so the part where you mentioned following up on the weak hit of Nair/Bair is really useful.

On that topic, Alphicans you were mentioning working on my ground game, I tried spending a bit more time doing so in doubles and friendlies today, and I managed to find out just how bad my GW ground game really is haha. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any follow ups or situational advice in regards to building a more solid GW ground game? I've seen Alph do a lot of cool stuff with either wiffing or falling through with bair and then looking for Jab 1 to grab, or even just run up grab.

 

[Jr555]

Obviously run up shield grab can be handy too. I'm also still new to learning how to properly buffer a grab out of shield when someone is using a weak or slow projectile like Luigi's fireball. I find myself in a really akward scenario where I always feel the opponent either lands their aerial or beats to me the grab in those situations. Am I just not buffering properly?

 

[Gardex]

Just know that your dtilt is an amazing move and a great ground-tool. It's a setup, an edgeguarding-tool, an anti-air and a semi-gtfo-move(quick, amazing range).

The dash > shield > grab is very useful out of dthrow as a tech-chase because it makes a regrab inescapable on some characters when they techroll away(MK, for instance)

Here's a new video of me vs a Diddy Kong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESCTm5d8NE
Set is actually fairly old(summer tournament), and we met again last weekend where I did even better, but w/e.

 

[-LzR-]

Can't you regrab like 80% of characters who techroll away anyways? Or do you have to use the shorter startup of a shieldgrab to catch them?
And for Dtilt, it does all of those very well. It's a shame the move is very unsafe unless perfectly spaced and sometimes even that won't save you.
I appreciate all activity this board gets as I'd like to learn more about G&W as I have lost all my confidence with the character. Haven't used him for ages actually.
I use Kirby in 90% of my matches now for some reason.

 

[Alphicans]

Dropping GaW for kirby... That hurts bro

 

[-LzR-]

Hey I also dropped ICs for Kirby so that makes it twice as ********. I switched to Kirby because I have lost my interest to compete in Brawl and I realized Kirby is a simple but fun character to use. That way I can play for longer periods while still having fun and not getting exhausted by playing characters like ICs or GW.

Also Kirby > GW

 

[Gardex]

To be fair, Kirby is pretty fun

Also: good luck at today's tournament , lzr

 

[SFA Smiley]

Kirby sucks.

no pun intended.

(seriously)

 

[-LzR-]

To be fair, Kirby is pretty fun

Also: good luck at today's tournament , lzr

Actually I didn't go to that tournament. I've lost my voice and I can't talk at all so I decided to not go.
I'm very very salty about that...

 

[Gardex]

That sucks, G&W or not, would still be cheering for you.

Aaaand a new video is up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_Nek5jRb0

Me vs Marth/Link
2nd stock vs Marth shows a really cool gimping trick I've done vs some Marths. Basically you uair or up b him as he's using up b to recover, because he wont sweetspot the ledge, and that'll let you either edgehog him or get a free punish.

G&W vs Link is actually not easy, and Afro is also one mean Link, so it creates good video.

 

[-LzR-]

Awesome to see Afro back!
And don't you worry Gardex, my GW is still lurking in the shadows, waiting for the right moment to become a dumb counterpick. He is all I got vs MK.

I agree with you on the trick vs Marth. He has almost no options in that situation. He has to take that uair/upB or die. Many times they have killed themselves afterwards as I stand near the ledge and they are afraid of my so they accidentally drift too far from the ledge and I don't even have to do anything.

 

[Gardex]

Aaaaand another video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1zlq3Gf6MU
Me vs Hudet (Falco) in LFs

 

[-LzR-]

So what is your opinion on the Falco MU? Just curious. I think it's his advantage thanks to him wrecking us up close and having a deadly grabgame, but when we get hit in the fun starts. Well played as usual, Hudet is not easy at all.

 

[Gardex]

It fluctates.
At first I thought we had a slight edge in the matchup, then I considered it even, then a slight disadvantage.
Now I consider it even again. Falco's margin of error before dying at like sub 90% is just too small for him to be able to consistently abuse his advantages when humans play.
Also, you can clearly see in that set that when I actually start playing safe at high %, he simply cannot kill me.
We played again last weekend in GFs, and I beat him 3-0, all victories being comebacks after I reached 1 stock, high % where I just started playing safe as ****.

 

[-LzR-]

What's your opinion on the bucket against Falco? I generally go for it if I know it's safe or want to bait him. If I am at the ledge and he is far away it's also an option. A frame 2 invincible move with a huge hitbox that hits him offstage is good to have.

 

[Gardex]

That's how I did my 3rd comeback vs him last week B)

I use it once(very poorly) in that video above, but yeah, it should be used when you're safe.(Sometimes I'd even do it if I can only get punished slightly)

That move kills earlier than your smashes, and is way faster with way better range. Use ittt

 

[-LzR-]

And if the other guy doesn't have much experience, it's so easy to bait the last laser as they don't know you recover fast for a free kill.

 

[Alphicans]

If you can get it there's no reason not to. The move is best in the game when it's full.

 

[Gardex]

Aaaaand another video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1zlq3Gf6MU
Me vs Hudet (Falco) in LFs

Looking back at it, I really think game 3 and 4 show some decent guidelines for how to play the Falco MU.(Excluding the pisspoor start in game 3 of course)
Gotta have the right mix of patience while dodging lasers, and aggression when you get it.
You can also see both in game 3 and 4 how descending nair leaves falco close to optionless when he's standing on the very edge of the stage.
Shieldpush will cause grab-attempts to become nairs offstage(which are close to free gimps), dsmash will eat up roll, and you cannot be punished by usmash or dash attack oos either.

EDIT: So here are grand finals: http://youtube.com/watch?v=iKuv4BmOKXs

Me vs Gagga(snake)
Not really much to say, same old story with him; I get beaten handily
Proud of game 2 though, that's the closest I've been to taking a game off him, ever

 

[Jr555]

That sucks, G&W or not, would still be cheering for you.

Aaaand a new video is up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_Nek5jRb0

Me vs Marth/Link
2nd stock vs Marth shows a really cool gimping trick I've done vs some Marths. Basically you uair or up b him as he's using up b to recover, because he wont sweetspot the ledge, and that'll let you either edgehog him or get a free punish.

G&W vs Link is actually not easy, and Afro is also one mean Link, so it creates good video.

This is one hell of a link, but I've got a lot of experience in this matchup and I can say with confidence that Link is one of the few characters where you can take every stock by spacing for percent with bair and using his projectile game against him. What I mean by that is generally when a link is trying to set up projectile traps, they're often also labeling their next attack, which you can pretty much always beat with dtilt or bair. Eventually you can throw in fair to get him offstage, and then the gimp should be automatic. Also, I take every perfect shielded projectile as an opportunity to judge both the mental fatigue of the link (believe me, get more than half their projectiles blocked in a match and it's pure hell for them), and the intelligence of their follow ups/aggression. You can almost win just by never worrying about the link and just simplifying how you view their projectiles.

Actually, upon rewatching this video, it's pretty interesting, for almost the entire time you play against Link, the only times you get hit are when he predicts your approach and does walk away fsmash, jabs when he catches you over committing, or by projectiles or traps that are started with projectiles. So basically as long as you're spacing with Bair instead of approaching with it, he won't read your Bair approaches as much, and as long as you're focusing on blocking and avoiding those projectiles, he won't get the other stuff either.

I learned a TON of stuff in your match vs Marth though. Raziek has been destroying me pretty consistently at monthlies/friendlies here, so this is perfect studying material.

 

[Sar]

So at the tournament I attended last week I asked MikeRay if I could play against him (not sandbagging) so that I could record the matches and learn. He bodied me pretty hard, but I still think the replays are valuable because they might be able to expose some of my glaring weaknesses as a new player to the competitive scene. Could you guys watch a match or two and let me know the major areas I can improve in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Gq8UG2j-I Sar vs Mikeray

 

[PentaSalia]

lol the disrespect snake. I hate when that works but that's just the match up. Though if you had better punished a lot of the careless stuff he did he probably wouldn't have done it as much.

Haven't played this match up in some time but here's what i think

Be more careful of your use of bair, you're not really thinking when you do it. It's really only useful to poke his shield or apply shield pressure from time to time (if hes not holding a nade) and get him in the air. Consider other options than blindly going in with bair because he was ready for almost all of your bair attempts you tried.

-Space your bairs bettter. You can still bair snake and avoid the DI into snake bair punish if its spaced properly then punish with a gw smash afterwards. Or you can always upb if you feel he's still going to hit you. Unless they have ally DI you can avoid the snake bair punish most of the time with good spacing. It's easier said than done of course but it's definitely doable. There's no efficient way to practice DI so you're simply going to have to play more snakes to figure it out lol.

-Stop falling into his traps. He's just waiting for you to go in and you did every time. All snakes will do this. Be more patient and wait for an opening.

-Juggles. Again this only comes with experience and every gw player could always use improvement in this. Considering how heavy snake is, you should be getting at least 30% every time you get him in the air, If you're feeling unsure just up air him. UpB and bair are also good alternatives for keeping snake in the air. There are probably better examples of this but here's one of myself.

- It's best to go for guaranteed damage sometimes than go for a read, especially against snake.

-Lastly this is my opinion but always upthrow snake at low%s.

 

[-LzR-]

My opinion would be to never Dthrow Snake unless you are in something like a BF platform. Otherwise it's just too risky. Snakes rolls are so long you are not going to hurt him even if you read correctly and an incorrect read means all your work was for nothing. Upthrow Snakes please. That's where you have a HUGE advantage. ALWAYS, not just 1 out of like 5 times like with Dthrow.

 

[PentaSalia]

I agree. Honestly only downthrow if snake is at kill percent but even then I'd rather upthrow.

 

[Alphicans]

Only go for dthrow on snake if you have in mind a huge rewarding option/a read on him. Like dtilt followup near the ledge to reading his reaction to possible gimp. Otherwise any of your other throws are way better.

 

[-LzR-]

It's also good to mix up between Back, Up and Forward throws because they are almost identical, but keeps them all kinda fresh so they do as much damage as possible.

 

[Sar]

lol the disrespect snake. I hate when that works but that's just the match up. Though if you had better punished a lot of the careless stuff he did he probably wouldn't have done it as much.

Haven't played this match up in some time but here's what i think

Be more careful of your use of bair, you're not really thinking when you do it. It's really only useful to poke his shield or apply shield pressure from time to time (if hes not holding a nade) and get him in the air. Consider other options than blindly going in with bair because he was ready for almost all of your bair attempts you tried.

-Space your bairs bettter. You can still bair snake and avoid the DI into snake bair punish if its spaced properly then punish with a gw smash afterwards. Or you can always upb if you feel he's still going to hit you. Unless they have ally DI you can avoid the snake bair punish most of the time with good spacing. It's easier said than done of course but it's definitely doable. There's no efficient way to practice DI so you're simply going to have to play more snakes to figure it out lol.

-Stop falling into his traps. He's just waiting for you to go in and you did every time. All snakes will do this. Be more patient and wait for an opening.

-Juggles. Again this only comes with experience and every gw player could always use improvement in this. Considering how heavy snake is, you should be getting at least 30% every time you get him in the air, If you're feeling unsure just up air him. UpB and bair are also good alternatives for keeping snake in the air. There are probably better examples of this but here's one of myself.

- It's best to go for guaranteed damage sometimes than go for a read, especially against snake.

-Lastly this is my opinion but always upthrow snake at low%s.

Wow, thank you so much. I realized that dthrow against snake was not a good option when I looked back at the replays. I think the best followup I got was a regrab, and that happened like, once.

And thanks for advice on bair/approaches. I realize that I often get really predictable when I approach because I use bair too much. What other approach options do we have, though? Grabs seem to work if you get a read, or condition your opponent into thinking a SH bair is coming, but they're pretty risky. Perhaps the best approach is to not really approach at all and look for opportunities for when your opponent leaves himself open to a bair or dair?

Also, the top GWs always tout nair as a really great and underused move. I can see how great it is for juggling/platform pressure, but can it be used as an approach? This doesn't have to be snake-mu specific.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah nair is great as an approach especially against characters who get shield poked easily (space the last few hits of nair on shield and it should be safe).

I can understand why people think they should be approaching snake, but get that out of your head right now. Just because he has projectiles and a good camping game doesn't mean you approach head on. You gotta jump around, see when he's vulnerable and then get in. Any of your hits should convert into more %. Best tactic on BF is to jump around the platforms and see if you can poke him with dair through a platform and if that connects follow up with a fall through FF fair (this almost always works, and is safe even if he shields as long as you drift away a bit). If the snake is somewhat smart he'll resort to camping in the middle of BF where you cannot poke him, so in that situation you gotta come in with bair so it finishes as you initially hit his shield, and then gtfo, or follow-up if you succeeded with your bair.

Overall the snake vs gaw m/u should play out like this: GaW jumping around, with snake throwing projectiles in such a way that force you to the ground so he can get that grab or ftilt. Your job is to bait out these perceived safe attempts and punish him super hard for it. There isn't much approaching, it's all about tricking each other into doing stuff.

 

[Sar]

Thanks Alphicans, that advise is super useful because I play against snakes SO much.
1) I live in New England (Bizkit, Fatal, Mikeray)
2) My training partner at home mains snake.
3) My training partner at college mains snake.

I gotta say, it's a frustrating matchup. Especially if you're not reading their airdodges correctly.

 

[Jr555]

Hey dudes, got some more critiquing material. First match I get bodied as MK, not worried about that since this is both the GW thread and my MK got way better during Apex, but generally I'm pretty good at the Oli matchup, so I thought I'd ask you guys if you see any options or things I missed out on. Two things I already noticed myself are that I should have been Fsmashing his bad spotdodge habit, and obviously I derped on what could have been a sweet bacon gimp. Thanks in advance yo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abaxlSnHlew

 

[Gardex]

I'm not too well versed in the matchup myself, but it seemed like you were playing it fairly well for the most part.
Olimar gets pretty ****ed up in a tech chase situation, so you want to grab him when opportunity strikes.(Hint: When you hit him with the landing hitbox of dair at low %, do that ****)

Try more dtilt when close to him, I feel like that's a pretty smart thing to do. Helped me in my limited time vs olimars.


I got a video to show myself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UqiUgyV-Uw
Me vs Falco again. This is one of my better sets overall, did some nice stuff both generally and matchup-specific.


AAANDDD Snake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov3pylzT0Dc
Snake is a funny matchup to me. It's without a doubt my most played matchup, yet it's the matchup I've had the most mixed results in.