Technical issues

[Forcystus]

Hey all,
this is my first post on the forums. I've been a fan of ssbm for a long time now and my level is pretty good now, just to give an example of my level I can defeat two level 9 CPU's. (that's probably not that impressive but now u know how good I am more or less)

My main character is Marth, I like him a lot because he's fast and effective. One of my issues is that, (this is going to sound a bit sad ), I've got nobody skilled to play against so I'm stuck with CPU's.

FYI: I use Y for jumping, L for pretty much everything, R I don't use at all neither do I use X. I don't use C-stick at all.

I want to get better in ssbm so i'm trying to learn a few techniques, which are:

1. Teching- completely learned this, I don't find this hard at all. Except maybe edge teching but I don't really need that.

2. Jumping out of your shield with up+b or up+a: completely mastered this, not difficult

3. Shuffling: I find this very hard to perform correctly. I can do the Short Hop+ Aerial but then it gets hard. I then find it hard to perform the L-cancel well because I also have to fast-fall. But let me get this, do u have to press the L button en the joystick downwards at the same time or first fastfall and then the L-cancel? Because what happens to me often is that that I come down and then my shield pops up, very annoying.

4. JC grabbing: I tried this but I've got no idea how this works, when I press jump and then Z (while running) I just jump up and no grab follows.

5. Wavedashing: goes pretty okay but not 100% certain. Do u guys wavedash with L or R?

So in short, I'm having mainly problems with 'spacing' (is that how u call it?) and choosing which buttons to press to perform an attack.

 

[TidalWave]

Start using c-stick, especially for aerials (retreating fairs/bairs, non-ff dairs). Its very useful. It looks like you have quite a bit of work ahead of you but keep it up.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

quicker hands bud...it seems liek you know how to do everythig...just practice my dude.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

L-cancel you press L or R seven or frames before you hit the ground and you'll be fine.

Jump cancel grabbing you have to hit jump then grab before you leave the ground. It should look like a standing grab, not a dash grab. It's basically muscle memory, not too hard to learn. I'd learn to use the C-stick, it's really useful. Marth's shffl isn't really fast enough so that you wouldn't be able to reach the C-stick in time, unless you're shorthop double fairing, but that's another story.

I do everything with R. I dunno what you mean by choosing which buttons to do what... you generally don't have too much of a choice =P

Spacing you just have to learn. Marth's attacks make different sounds depending on if you hit with the tip or not. Fairs send upwards when they're tipped, fsmash makes this deep booming sound and has a lot more hitlag and knockback.

If you must practice, do it against a single level one CPU. Two level nines doesn't really help you in a practical sense. For one, they don't play like real people and also you won't really be playing against two people at the same time, unless it's in teams, which is something else entirely.

 

[OmegaXF]

You need fasgter fingers everything you have problems with just do it 2x faster JCGrabs as an example try experimenting with it by pressing Jump and grab at the same time. Then slow modify your timing to your liking...

 

[ComboTurtle]

jc grabbing you're obviously not doing it fast enough if you end up jumping

i do everything with l aswell except i shield with r so i can easily wavedash out of shield

and for youre shffling question you generally fast fall before u press l the timing is alot harder than teching but once u get used to it, it becomes fairly easily.

oh and yeah start using c stick for non charged smashes aka most smashes, and for retreating aerials too, i also find it easier to uair with the c stick

basically it sounds like you're pretty much just starting, so you'll have to work on incorporating all of these techniques into your game and knowing how and when to use each and everyone one of them anyways goodluck

 

[Forcystus]

Thanks for the replies guys. Firstly I want to say that I mastered wavedashing, although wavedashing backwards is a little bit uncertain still. I also mastered JC grabbing now, I just need to make sure it becomes a reflex. And I'll follow your advice and start using C-stick.

One more question, if I go in for an attack I usually choose between these options:
1. Go in with a SHFFL, normally thats a Nair.
2. I perform a wavedash+forward Smash. (I can time it that I hit with with the tip btw)

Are these good offensive methods? and could u tell me what u guys normally do to open an attack or combo?
thx in advance

 

[DtJ Jungle]

ok as marth, you have many many options

1 is ok
2 is bad. dont do 2. if thats shielded..you get grabbed...then you get *****
3rd option is to dd into a grab
4th is to fair lcancel grab
there are more i just cant think of them right now

always try to get a grab.

 

[SHDW23]

Approaching:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102436

 

[Ndot]

ok as marth, you have many many options

1 is ok
2 is bad. dont do 2. if thats shielded..you get grabbed...then you get *****
3rd option is to dd into a grab
4th is to fair lcancel grab
there are more i just cant think of them right now

always try to get a grab.

Option 2 wavedash to fsmash is not bad. You just gota mix up your options and not mass it. If you are predictable with it, you are obviously going to get grabbed and be ***** from there. There are lots of ways to use this with mindgames, you just need to know when to use it properly.

 

[Bailey]

Practice.

That's all

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wavedash fsmash is a pretty terrible approach. Even if you land it, you're not going to get any combos from it.

 

[Ndot]

Use it for killing mostly lol, and low to mid percent to techchase lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, as a tech chase it's fairly nice, but that's not really an approach =P

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yah its not a habit you want to get into though..more azen random fsmashes!

 

[Miggz]

I got one word for you..."time." Sorry you don't have any humans to play but me personally, I think fighting computers are a waste of time. The only thing they do is make bad habits out of you. I'd say stick with just tech skill practice. Would you like me to give you a general list of what my training drills were? How long do you practice for anyway? Just wondering? Cause for me, I use to train for about 30 mins-an hour.

1. First, before worrying about anything else...master SHFFLing all of your aerials. This is more important then anything. No matter how long it takes, days, weeks, just keep at it.

2. The next is of course your wavedashing. The hard part isn't doing the wavedash, but its making sure each is long/fluid as possible.

3. The next task is to try and dash after doing a SHFFL fair/nair and dash canceled down tilt. These kinds of things makes your Marth extremely fluid.

4. Edge game is another whole new thing to work on, but I'll stop for now. Those are things you need to polish up on before considering other departments, in my opinion anyway.

If you can, somehow in the future, record your progress. XD

 

[Forcystus]

The problem is that I can't ever approach with a grab instantly, (when fighting a CPU lvl 9) because I smacked before I can get the grab in. Maybe this is different when playing humans.

@ Miggz: I usually train up to 45 min, every day. I usually begin with fighting a lvl 1 CPU and just warming up. Then I fight lvl 9s, mostly Samus, Falco, Roy and Link.

Also I personally find my Edge game very strong, I can wavedash easily so I grab the edge, i can also let go of the edge+ doublejump+Bair+ grab the edge again. But normally I just stay on the ege and use my B-smash, the one u can charge, or I use my forward smash, or my downtilt.

I will also try to record my battles if I find a camera. Thanks for all the support folks

 

[DtJ Jungle]

ok lolz you need to find like a friend to train with...you aren't that far along you can bring htem to speed...let them develop their own game and you guys can get better together...this is much better than practicing against CPUs...playing them can lead to really ****ty habits...then you play other people and lose and you

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...wait...what...you can't ledgehop a bair and regrab the edge...that's not physically possible.

 

[Forcystus]

I think you can, you just let go, than Bair, then double jump and grab the ledge again or when I have to go out I use dancing blade and dolphin slash.

Good I will find a friend and train him, how long will it take do you think? till he reaches my level?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Sorry, no, that's not possible. For one, bair has too much lag and secondly, it turns you around. You can drop with a bair then double jump Dolphin Slash to recover, or ledgehop bair then Dolphin Slash to recover, though.

Depends on the friend, and depends on the character.

 

[TidalWave]

Sorry, no, that's not possible. For one, bair has too much lag and secondly, it turns you around. You can drop with a bair then double jump Dolphin Slash to recover, or ledgehop bair then Dolphin Slash to recover, though.

Depends on the friend, and depends on the character.

True facts. I believe he was trying to describe the ledgehop bair and just left out the part about up-b.

 

[VEEN]

Im from the Netherlands. Add me on msn and i'll help you out.

 

[ynnek123]

Come over to my house and I'd love to help you out I know more people who cant do any of that stuff consistently, but most belgian people like brawl more -.- so I don't have many peopel to play against either. and check out belgion thread in regional zone forums, there was someone else living in brussels too iirc

 

[CommanderCody08]

I noticed that you didn't mention DI anywhere and I think thats something you definetly need to look into(seriously, its probably the most underrated technique). Also, working on DI is one of the few things that you actually can learn against a CPU.

If you don't know for starterss di stands for directional influence and its basically altering your trajectory when you get hit so that you live more. there is a really good duide somewhere that I can't find.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Stop playing with level 9 computers.

It will litterally make you worse at the game, as it will cause you to develop very bad habits. Your goal in practicing against computers is not to beat them, it is to make sure that your fingers and your mind are working together. The point of practicing against computers is to practice clearly definable things that will apply to matches against humans as well. Some examples would be spacing attacks, making sure that you don't miss L-cancels, dash dancing and wavedashing at different controlled lengths, and being able to act as quickly as possible after other actions (like knowing how much lag a move has and being able to act immediately afterwards, even if you choose not to sometimes) And the most important thing is that all of these actions must become muscle memory. You should never have to think about how to do anything. The only question would be whether or not you want to do it (in the case of L-canceling you'd always want to do it).

So for training purposes, you should stick to level 1 computers unless someone tells you otherwise for a specific training excercise (I use a Level 9 Falco on FD to practice powershielding, since it shoots lasers more frequently and will sometimes powershield them back, which is almost the same speed as someone just doing an SHL).


You are going to have to play against people in order to learn other core aspects of the game as well, but we'll get to that after you hve some basic tech skill down.

 

[ynnek123]

^level 6-7 for combos they dont always DI towards you...lol

 

[SHDW23]

Stop playing with level 9 computers.

It will litterally make you worse at the game, as it will cause you to develop very bad habits.

So for training purposes, you should stick to level 1 computers unless someone tells you otherwise for a specific training excercise (I use a Level 9 Falco on FD to practice powershielding, since it shoots lasers more frequently and will sometimes powershield them back, which is almost the same speed as someone just doing an SHL).

once again i am here to tell you that playing level 9 cps does not, i repeat does not make you worse at the game unless you play to win. if you remember that you are practicing then there are no better cps to pressure you and force you to be able to execute on command or at will.

level one computers are good for when you want to learn a new skill, etc but they cannot provide the pressure that you will have to face during a real match. it is one thing to be able to execute when you have no fear of being of being stopped and another entirely when your opponent is in your face, breathing down your neck, so on and so forth.

however if you take advantage of level 9 stupidity (such as charging up smashes for them to walk into or baiting them to do stupid thing) in order to win, you will not gain any useful skills. and, as always, human beings are the best competition you can get, so don't pass on an opportunity to play other people.

 

[Dark Sonic]

once again i am here to tell you that playing level 9 cps does not, i repeat does not make you worse at the game unless you play to win. if you remember that you are practicing then there are no better cps to pressure you and force you to be able to execute on command or at will.

level one computers are good for when you want to learn a new skill, etc but they cannot provide the pressure that you will have to face during a real match. it is one thing to be able to execute when you have no fear of being of being stopped and another entirely when your opponent is in your face, breathing down your neck, so on and so forth.

however if you take advantage of level 9 stupidity (such as charging up smashes for them to walk into or baiting them to do stupid thing) in order to win, you will not gain any useful skills. and, as always, human beings are the best competition you can get, so don't pass on an opportunity to play other people.

Level 9 CPUs suck at providing pressure as well. They don't use any of the more common approach methods that you'll be dealing with, they don't follow up with the combos that you'll be facing when fighting real opponents, they don't do any sort of off stage edgeguarding, ect.

And they also do some things that you wouldn't expect human opponets to do as well, such as not only power shielding normal attacks, but also attacking from said power shield. They SDI random attacks, they fail at recovering, they react instantaneously, they always DI towards you (level 1's DI away from you, but at least that's closer to the correct DI for trying to escape combos), they wriggle out of tumbling instantly, and overall they are just terrible examples that you should stay as far away from as possible when practicing. If you must fight a CPU, you should use a low level one so that you do get to practice without any sort of pressure or interuptions. The whole point isn't to actually fight them, they are just punching bags for you to test attacks on. If you want to test approaches or defenses, you will need a human, as a CPU will just provide you with the wrong info.

And he is in the learning stage, as said by the original post. He is perfecting new skills, and he needs to make them muscle memory, which can only be done through repetition.

 

[Miggz]

I must agree with Dark Sonic on this one. ^^

 

[SHDW23]

Level 9 CPUs suck at providing pressure as well. They don't use any of the more common approach methods that you'll be dealing with, they don't follow up with the combos that you'll be facing when fighting real opponents, they don't do any sort of off stage edgeguarding, ect.

And they also do some things that you wouldn't expect human opponets to do as well, such as not only power shielding normal attacks, but also attacking from said power shield. They SDI random attacks, they fail at recovering, they react instantaneously, they always DI towards you (level 1's DI away from you, but at least that's closer to the correct DI for trying to escape combos), they wriggle out of tumbling instantly, and overall they are just terrible examples that you should stay as far away from as possible when practicing. If you must fight a CPU, you should use a low level one so that you do get to practice without any sort of pressure or interuptions. The whole point isn't to actually fight them, they are just punching bags for you to test attacks on. If you want to test approaches or defenses, you will need a human, as a CPU will just provide you with the wrong info.

And he is in the learning stage, as said by the original post. He is perfecting new skills, and he needs to make them muscle memory, which can only be done through repetition.

just about everything you said is true. and when in the learning stage lower level cps or empty controllers are the best things to learn on. however, i did not write what i did just for him, but for other people as well.

as to how level 9's approach and don't combo and not edge guarding, neither do any other cps. and that for the comboing and edge guarding, that might actually be a good thing, remember you are training. if they did combo it would just be time consuming. as is you get hit and are interrupted and have to start over, but you won't take a lot of damage etc, etc... you can practice sweet spotting the edge without having someone there to actually edge guard you.

as to the super-shielding and wiggling to perfection, you never know what skills some person will have mastered so you might as well prepare for the worst or at least know that it might happen. and computers do that less often than you might expect.

testing approaches on level 9s is actually kinda useful, because if a jab or something can be gotten out to stop you, a level 9 will manage it. and it's not like practicing them on level 1s is any better.

the di is the one point that cannot be reconciled. but i played and play level 9s a lot (i don't/didn't have people to play with very often) and i found that even though their di is the opposite of what it should be, i didn't have any trouble adjusting. i don't know why that would be the case, maybe it is because of the random good di or sdi, etc. i also think that it is easier to adjust to di, since that changes from player to player and in small ways anyways (so that being able to adjust is a useful skill) than it is to learn to deal with pressure in a match that matters.

it is of UPMOST important that while training on ANY cps that you remember that you are training. whether you choose to play level 1s or level 9s, each will do things that a human wouldn't do and you have to try not to exploit their weaknesses. it should be obvious that playing with humans is the best possibility. but lacking that, you must consider the relative strengths and weaknesses of each level of cp and pick the one that will give you the best AI to train against. i am not saying that playing level 9s is always best, instead i'm only saying that playing level 9s WILL NOT automatically make you worse. again, it is important to remember that you are only training when you play cps, if you do so, and make the necessary adjustment, you can practice on any level cp that you want.

 

[ynnek123]

testing approaches on level 9s is actually kinda useful, because if a jab or something can be gotten out to stop you, a level 9 will manage it. and it's not like practicing them on level 1s is any better.

they have an inhuman reaction time though, so they might discourage you from doing things that would work against most real life opponents

 

[RestInPeace]

they have an inhuman reaction time though, so they might discourage you from doing things that would work against most real life opponents

As long as you keep this in mind, it should be fine. Right?

 

[Sybawave]

Do they really have hostels over there? (Don't flame me pl0x)

 

[ynnek123]

As long as you keep this in mind, it should be fine. Right?

yeah, i guess so

Do they really have hostels over there? (Don't flame me pl0x)

lolwut?

 

[Sybawave]

Well, there was this AT&T commercial about this guy in Europe and he was in Brussels and he didn't get a phone call to go to France and then ended up staying at a hostel with a pair of techno twins...so yeah <_<''

 

[elvenarrow3000]

After seeing the movie Hostel, I don't really want to stay in a hostel in Europe.

 

[Sybawave]

LOL is that a really scary movie or what? I heard a lot of my friends were scurd XD but I haven't seen it...think I will now though lol and are there any in America?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's... gory.

 

[Sybawave]

That's the reason I play Smash lol violent but not gory XD thanks for the heads up again lol