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Team Star Fox call in Krystal for Smash!

Smokey21

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Apr 23, 2017
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195
As far as I know, Zero never got labeled a reboot by Nintendo. It's something that the 'fans' pushed.
that's more or less what I was saying yeah. I wouldn't generalize it to all the fans though because obviously we who want all the other stuff to exist are still here and asking for more games. haha
 
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Tortilla Noggin

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As far as I know, Zero never got labeled a reboot by Nintendo. It's something that the 'fans' pushed. Same goes for the whole 'Zero has its own timeline/takes place in an alternate universe.' thing. That has never been confirmed in any way and was made up by people who hate all the stuff that happened after 64. These people actually want Zero to be a reboot, so that the stuff they hate is no longer canon, but they entirely ignore the things that were said (Zero being a reimagining), which is basically everything we can go by at this point. If you look up 'reimagining', you'll see that it's something entirely different from a reboot, but is rather pretty similar to a remake. I'm not saying that Nintendo won't reboot the series, but considering the things that were officially said, as well as Zero's poor sales, I think it just wouldn't be wise to do it. There has to be a reason why Nintendo avoided calling it a reboot in the first place. Maybe they first wanted to see how the game does before deciding what the actual purpose of Zero is, if any...
They said that it was less of a reboot and more of a retelling or a reimagining, though, and when one of those things changes key events, which Star Fox Zero does, they become pretty analogous to a reboot, because at that point you're no longer re-telling or re-imagining things, you're telling a different story.

That's certainly how I see such things, personally (not just with this game, but with others), and I can see why many others do, too. :p
 

Mr. Brownstone

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I wouldn't generalize it to all the fans though because obviously we who want all the other stuff to exist are still here and asking for more games. haha
That's why I used the quotation marks ;)


That's certainly how I see such things, personally (not just with this game, but with others), and I can see why many others do, too. :p
The question is, does Miyamoto look at it that way, too? :p At this point, nobody knows for sure, but I for one wouldn't want to reboot a series starting with the worst selling game of said series. Just sayin'.
 

Tortilla Noggin

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The question is, does Miyamoto look at it that way, too? :p
All we have are the official translations from when he introduced the game a couple of E3s ago, so beyond that we don't know. The impression that I got was that he was quick to downplay it being a reboot, even though it looks very much like one to those who may not be aware of what he said - and even to those who are.

At this point, nobody knows for sure, but I for one wouldn't want to reboot a series starting with the worst selling game of said series. Just sayin'.
I wouldn't want to, either! :laugh:
 

Smokey21

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Apr 23, 2017
Messages
195
That's why I used the quotation marks ;)
Ah I must have just glazed through it and didn't notice, apologies. :p

The question is, does Miyamoto look at it that way, too? :p At this point, nobody knows for sure, but I for one wouldn't want to reboot a series starting with the worst selling game of said series. Just sayin'.
That's a good question... We may never know what he's actually thinking when it comes to star fox because we still got Zero. We just know that he wants to work on more Star Fox because of how Foxes popularity isn't as high as he wanted Zero clearly had somewhat of an effect on that, but resetting the story wasn't the best way to get the series more popularity clearly. All we can do it hope that he learned from his mistakes with Zero because people are tired of that story.
 

jahkzheng

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As for other ideas, I came up with some, regarding the series as a whole. Something I'd like to see is the team actually being shown as mercenaries rather than superheroes. I want them to do real mercenary work in the form of side quests. I also want Fox to be an actual leader, in a way that he (or rather the player) has to make decisions in battle.
Saw this part of your post and it reminded me of a brainstorming thought I had back before Zero. Talking about different directions the series could go to really enrich the universe and the characters. Essentially, the thought was... "what if Mass Effect type game but it was Star Fox". I know that's a pretty specific statement with broad implications, but it was more a comparison I made because "space" and "team" and "visiting planets in systems", but also has elements like deep character development and plentiful side quests and a slow developing plot. Wouldn't exactly be what I'd want from Star Fox in some ways, but when you consider the first couple Mass Effects, they had some elements that would fit a deeper Star Fox experience.

Basically, just a rough way of generalizing a way to explore a the Star Fox universe and characters is all. Your mercenaries idea and the small detail managing ideas fits in with what could be a variable and sidequesty version of Star Fox, which is essentially an RPG since detail management and sidequests are elements heavily associated with RPGs.

...

Also, to respond to a later post of yours, the bit of nostalgia for Assault began early on. Before Zero was released many people that weren't necessarily Krystal fans expressed their slight disappointment at it not following Assault or leaving behind more recent events to dip back into Lylat Wars for essentially the 4th time. And that support got stronger after release and Zero left fans wanting.

It was encouraging in a way to see that response and some indirect Krystal support, but for the health of the series I think we were all hoping Zero would be better than it ended up being, Krystal or no. We knew, though few others seemed to, that Zero's "reimagining" wasn't the death of Krystal. Often had to remind people that Lylat Wars happened before Krystal showed up, and even if Zero was an alternate universe where the events of Lylat Wars were a bit different, that doesn't mean Krystal suddenly doesn't exist. She's alive during Lylat Wars... just not with the team. Doing something that may or may not end up with her being back on board by some other way. Some of us even dreamed that the new timeline maybe created with Zero might invite a new Adventures where her role is more active in that "reimagining" cuz "new timeline" or whatever. Yeah, there was a chance Krystal wouldn't rejoin the team cuz different timeline, but it was definitely not impossible like some implied, heh.

So yeah, I think many of us accepted Zero and speculated on how Krystal might show up next. But if Zero isn't a "timeline" Nintendo wants to play with anyways, then we're still just as well as Krystal fans. We'll see what they do next chance they get. As I said a couple pages back as I recall, the success of the Switch ought to make Nintendo less averse to risk. And with Zero not hitting it off Star Fox is certainly on the idea backburner. Switch success might be the impetus for them to explore the series again sooner than expected.

I am pretty sure we all enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for posting the source and page... the old Krystal thread is a pretty daunting thread to go through(being over 300 pages and all. lol). I know I love reading other fans thoughts on how the games/Krystal could be. This is where speculation becomes fun and interactive... us all throwing our ideas on the table.
I browsed the page I linked and the page after is all, yesterday. It's a little funny to see us making broad predictions, many of which were wrong. I myself tried to be careful with broad predictions but one I definitely got wrong was being so confident that Wolf would come back to Smash as DLC. After Lucas in particular, it seemed impossible that they wouldn't bring him back. It's still a surprise in retrospect. And of course we had lots of hopes for Zero early on before much was known and very few of them came to be. Though even at that point many of us recognized that Miyamoto was going to play down any story aspect and probably focus too much on forcing awkward mechanics, and that came true. I admit I got a good laugh out of Ian saying Roy simply would not come back though, heh~

The question is, does Miyamoto look at it that way, too? :p At this point, nobody knows for sure, but I for one wouldn't want to reboot a series starting with the worst selling game of said series. Just sayin'.
I don't know that Miyamoto has an opinion in that regard. His attachment to the continuity is tenuous. He's more concerned with game innovation for the most part. Unless there's a project in the works now, I don't know that he even knows what direction he'd take it. But if it were up to him, the game concept mechanically would exist first and the characters would fit within that context whether it was Fox, Falco, Slippy, Peppy or Fox, Falco, Slippy, Krystal, or some other combo. The characters are just players or pieces in a scheme where their roles are interchangeable. It's not until some other part of the game's dev team has to hash out dialogue that much beyond that has to be set. At least, that's generally how his approach works. Krystal could be in it as easily as not since no one's role is critical other than to help identify the series. Heck, we know he can make an unrelated Zelda-like featuring a cat girl into a Star Fox game deep in the former's development~
 
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Guybrush20X6

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I think the best way for Star Fox to go is to dabble in the Strategy genre again but to have full stages instead of cutting between a map and dogfights.

Maybe having the Team get paid after every mission and using the cash to upgrade their ships and do other things like maybe buy new ships or hire new crew members.
 

Gagnetar

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Apr 19, 2017
Messages
392
Finally got my hands on a SNES classic, no thanks to walmart's preorder... rather to the toysrus twitter for announcing them being in stock, my mother picked up the last one right after work aswell as odyssey, I knew they were small but the thing is smaller than the controllers lol it's so cute.

also it was Hashimoto in particular, who was the most influential Platinum Games member of the team, aswell as being pretty big in the company himself, I think he's co-founder or something I don't really remember. Either way Kamiya could have been the person to work on Zero, he was actually a bit jealous of Hashimoto for getting the chance. however he only cares about the original and 64, and actually has no idea who Krystal is. Not like it really would have changed the game but we certainly wouldn't have had the response had we ended up with Kamiya in charge of it when Sweeto asked about her, I'd hope that the message was seen by nintendo, it was reported by multiple news outlets even.

I hear that Koizumi tells us to expect more non-traditional IPs to appear on the Switch, combining this with their desire for mature games to appear on the console with Reggie's statement that they want everyone from 5 to 95 playing this makes me think they'll want to do literally everything they can with their brand to get people to play the Switch. If I had to theorize with the data Tort presented and our theories of it being based on Smash 4 & 5, aswell as my personal belief in that old rumor that addressed smash brothers as "huge work" That it's going to be the best smash brothers game in terms of characters atleast for a good while, aswell as there's a high chance of seeing a Starfox game easily in the lifetime of the switch based on that notion that they seem to be pulling everything they have out. We don't have too long to find out if we're getting one for the anniversary of SF.

My curiosity now is about the games DLC, Sakurai stated that he didn't like the concept of pre-release planned DLC, well we don't know his current place with the game (though most of us would likely say it's not as a strong of a presence as it has been)
and Warrior's was very obviously pre-planned DLC so the potential is certainly there if Warrior's DLC is successful. Even if they don't do planned DLC it depends on the current presence of SF itself, all things considered Krystal may have a better chance of being non-planned addition depending on when the respective games release.
 

ryuu seika

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I think the best way for Star Fox to go is to dabble in the Strategy genre again but to have full stages instead of cutting between a map and dogfights.
Maybe having the Team get paid after every mission and using the cash to upgrade their ships and do other things like maybe buy new ships or hire new crew members.
Command combined an RTS overworld with the very worst of what Starfox gameplay had to offer. Dog fights are not good times.
The same sort of strategy/SF fusion would be a lot better with less empty combat segments, like those that you're suggesting, and I really like the idea of making the reward money matter via RPG-esque upgrades.
 

Diddy Kong

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Can I just come in and say that Command was a great game? I enjoyed playing that game a lot. Great replay vallue because of all the routes and different endings you could get. Awesome how they choose to include almost all characters from all the Star Fox games. It was Krystal's last appearance. And even if her role was a little.. dubious, I was just happy seeing her.

I enjoyed Command far more than Star Fox 64 3DS. I also enjoyed Adventures more than both. Am pretty sure that Krystal would've been a easy pick for a newcomer if she would just appear in one more Star Fox game. I just want the Rare legacy to continue.
 

Tortilla Noggin

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Can I just come in and say that Command was a great game? I enjoyed playing that game a lot. Great replay vallue because of all the routes and different endings you could get. Awesome how they choose to include almost all characters from all the Star Fox games. It was Krystal's last appearance. And even if her role was a little.. dubious, I was just happy seeing her.

I enjoyed Command far more than Star Fox 64 3DS. I also enjoyed Adventures more than both. Am pretty sure that Krystal would've been a easy pick for a newcomer if she would just appear in one more Star Fox game. I just want the Rare legacy to continue.
I think you and I might be the only people around here who genuinely like Star Fox Command! :laugh: It's my second-favourite game in the Star Fox 64 continuity, after Assault.
 

Gagnetar

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Can I just come in and say that Command was a great game? I enjoyed playing that game a lot. Great replay vallue because of all the routes and different endings you could get. Awesome how they choose to include almost all characters from all the Star Fox games. It was Krystal's last appearance. And even if her role was a little.. dubious, I was just happy seeing her.

I enjoyed Command far more than Star Fox 64 3DS. I also enjoyed Adventures more than both. Am pretty sure that Krystal would've been a easy pick for a newcomer if she would just appear in one more Star Fox game. I just want the Rare legacy to continue.
Despite the fact I hated Krystal for about six months after that game before denying it's existence, mechanically and concept wise it was a great game, I really enjoying the turn-based map and the custom ships

Also TheCynicalCdr TheCynicalCdr i have some good news, you remember the miiverse thing well they posted the collage (https://i.miiverse.nintendo.net/thank_you.png)
WELL GUESS WHO'S ART IS IN IT
hey CDR!.PNG


If you want to find it yourself it's at the extreme right about 66% scrolled up
I can't believe like the only Krystal goodbye post made it!
 

Diddy Kong

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I think you and I might be the only people around here who genuinely like Star Fox Command! :laugh: It's my second-favourite game in the Star Fox 64 continuity, after Assault.
Yeah well it just worked great with the DS controls. Sure it could've been more action-based to be really true to Star Fox but I enjoyed the combat mechanics for what they where. Also the characters and the characterisation as well as the endings added great debt. It felt almost strategy / RPG-like, and I felt that worked.
 

Mr. Brownstone

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Yeah well it just worked great with the DS controls. Sure it could've been more action-based to be really true to Star Fox but I enjoyed the combat mechanics for what they where. Also the characters and the characterisation as well as the endings added great debt. It felt almost strategy / RPG-like, and I felt that worked.

I give Command some credit for at least trying to give us something new. The problem is that there was no believability to the character development whatsoever. Fox is suddenly concerned about Krystal's safety even though it seemed to be the other way around in Assault. Krystal, a character who was apparently able to deal with the loss of her entire planet, which is something that would usually affect you for the rest of your life, goes nuts (basically doing a 180) because Fox kicks her off the team? Not only that, but she even joins Star Wolf? I mean, these guys worked for Andross, who was willing to sacrifice Sauria (a planet that means a lot to Krystal) in order to ensure his own revival. She even says good things about Andross. By the time Command takes place she should know about all the bad things that he's done, including the potential destruction of her own home world. Even if Andross didn't destroy Cerinia, the mere fact that she is saying these things about him is already pretty disturbing. Sorry, but that's not the Krystal I know. You would think that she is smarter than this. The only smart decision she made was to join the Cornerian Army. We know that Krystal has always been a kind person. So after the loss of her home world she probably wanted to help others even more in order to prevent catastrophes like the one she had to witness herself from happening. That's why joining the Army was definitely a smart move instead of taking an ordinary job in an office or something like that.

Another problem I have with Command's story is that lots of crucial things are basically happening off-screen, like the team disbanding in the prologue. I mean, why did they even disband in the first place? Would Fox throw away his father's legacy just like that? Those are scenes that they should've shown in detail while giving actual reasons instead of just saying that certain things happened. Another thing that the game almost entirely abandoned is Krystal's telepathy, which is essentially the same as taking Slippy's skills as a mechanic away. Also, there's no proper cutscenes or voice acting either, plus the art style looked very weird in many cases (to put it mildly). The list goes on and on...Anyways, gameplay-wise I found Command somewhat enjoyable. The personalized ships were great and having all characters in one game felt certainly refreshing. The strategic/tactical approach they took with the map was pretty cool as well. In terms of action, however, the game felt very repetitive and monotonous compared to Assault which is a lot more diverse with the vehicle-switching and all.

Final 'Rating':
Gameplay: Average at best -- Story & Characters: So bad that no gameplay in the world could've made up for it. Character/Story development is a great thing, but there has to be a degree of believability about it, which Command failed to deliver. Not to mention that the series is practically still suffering the consequences of Command and its 'endings'. Fortunately, none of them is the actual one, as Dylan Cuthbert confirmed during his AMA on Reddit earlier this year.

Yeah, so that's my take on Command. If you like the game, that's totally fine with me. I respect anyone's opinion as long as they respect mine. It seems like this is one of a few places where you can actually discuss Star Fox in a friendly and even productive manner. I wonder if there's something we could do to actually unify the broken SF fanbase, if that's even possible...
 
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Tortilla Noggin

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I give Command some credit for at least trying to give us something new. The problem is that there was no believability to the character development whatsoever. Fox is suddenly concerned about Krystal's safety even though it seemed to be the other way around in Assault. Krystal, a character who was apparently able to deal with the loss of her entire planet, which is something that would usually affect you for the rest of your life, goes nuts (basically doing a 180) because Fox kicks her off the team? Not only that, but she even joins Star Wolf? I mean, these guys worked for Andross, who was willing to sacrifice Sauria (a planet that means a lot to Krystal) in order to ensure his own revival. She even says good things about Andross. By the time Command takes place she should know about all the bad things that he's done, including the potential destruction of her own home world. Even if Andross didn't destroy Cerinia, the mere fact that she is saying these things about him is already pretty disturbing. Sorry, but that's not the Krystal I know. You would think that she is smarter than this. The only smart decision she made was to join the Cornerian Army. We know that Krystal has always been a kind person. So after the loss of her home world she probably wanted to help others even more in order to prevent catastrophes like the one she had to witness herself from happening. That's why joining the Army was definitely a smart move instead of taking an ordinary job in an office or something like that.

Another problem I have with Command's story is that lots of crucial things are basically happening off-screen, like the team disbanding in the prologue. I mean, why did they even disband in the first place? Would Fox throw away his father's legacy just like that? Those are scenes that they should've shown in detail while giving actual reasons instead of just saying that certain things happened. Another thing that the game almost entirely abandoned is Krystal's telepathy, which is essentially the same as taking Slippy's skills as a mechanic away. Also, there's no proper cutscenes or voice acting either, plus the art style looked very weird in many cases (to put it mildly). The list goes on and on...Anyways, gameplay-wise I found Command somewhat enjoyable. The personalized ships were great and having all characters in one game felt certainly refreshing. The strategic/tactical approach they took with the map was pretty cool as well. In terms of action, however, the game felt very repetitive and monotonous compared to Assault which is a lot more diverse with the vehicle-switching and all.

Final 'Rating':
Gameplay: Average at best -- Story & Characters: So bad that no gameplay in the world could've made up for it. Character/Story development is a great thing, but there has to be a degree of believability about it, which Command failed to deliver. Not to mention that the series is practically still suffering the consequences of Command and its 'endings'. Fortunately, none of them is the actual one, as Dylan Cuthbert confirmed during his AMA on Reddit earlier this year.

Yeah, so that's my take on Command. If you like the game, that's totally fine with me. I respect anyone's opinion as long as they respect mine. It seems like this is one of a few places where you can actually discuss Star Fox in a friendly and even productive manner. I wonder if there's something we could do to actually unify the broken SF fanbase, if that's even possible...
With Command, I found that I had to distance myself from the story in order to enjoy the game, because the writing and the characterisations are just that awful. :laugh: That said, I'm no fan of Star Fox 64's writing, story, and English voice-acting to begin with, so to me it felt like it fit in pretty well with that game, at least.

Taking it as some sort of over-the-top non-canon experience is the best way to go with it, I think. That way, it's possible to enjoy the varied "what-if" scenarios from the endings for what they are. My favourite has always been "Fox and Falco's Faulty Victory", incidentally - the one where everything goes wrong for Fox, and he and Falco end up starting a new life as G-Zero racing drivers.

I also really like the soundtrack - or, at least, I really like the new tracks that aren't re-re-rearrangements of tunes from Star Fox 64 (though most of those are good, too, to be fair).

The less said about the art, the better, though. I really dislike that elongated-heads look - it looks amateurish, and, for me, it spoiled a bit of what made the Star Fox series special. Prior to the elongated-heads look being introduced, the series had a visual style where you could instinctively assume that the parts of the universe where the games take place had evolution turn out differently to how it did on Earth. Once the elongated head designs debuted, and once they insisted that they stay because they're "unique" (the trouble is, they're not unique in a good way), it felt like they were trying to combine the look of animals with the look of stereotypical grey-aliens, in order to give an impression not of different evolution, but of animal-looking aliens, instead. I don't like that idea, and it's not appealing to look at, either.
 
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TheCynicalCdr

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Jun 13, 2015
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Borrowing this one guys sprite design, I was able to make Krystal in Cladun Returns.
hzg6G-Gz.jpg


A bit ironic actually, what with what platform it's on and the fact a Nintendo girl is in it? Although the game is on PC too, still. I did see a video where the guy made Yoshi in it, so Krystal isnt the only one.
 

jahkzheng

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Can I just come in and say that Command was a great game? I enjoyed playing that game a lot. Great replay vallue because of all the routes and different endings you could get. Awesome how they choose to include almost all characters from all the Star Fox games. It was Krystal's last appearance. And even if her role was a little.. dubious, I was just happy seeing her.

I enjoyed Command far more than Star Fox 64 3DS. I also enjoyed Adventures more than both. Am pretty sure that Krystal would've been a easy pick for a newcomer if she would just appear in one more Star Fox game. I just want the Rare legacy to continue.
I'll admit Command's my least favorite Star Fox, but then I never did play 64 3D, or if I did it was very unmemorable... and I only tried a small fraction of Zero. Command was a good game, but in terms of Star Fox for me, the weakest one I actually beat. The controls were a bit of a pain (but can't be worse than Zero probabaly) and the story line was new but did a lot of things beyond just the Krystal stuff that felt weird. I didn't quite like the new characters or the writing for any character really or the progression of the story for instance. I can say it was new and some of the stages were interesting, plus some innovative ideas about how to map the game progression more strategically and personalized ships was probably the best new idea to come out of it for me. But the story and controls kinda bothered me throughout. It's like the Other M of Star Fox for me except that it didn't necessarily mess with the flow of the game in a negative way too. And I know maybe it seems harsh to compare to Other M and I'll say that Other M is my least favorite Metroid, but it's also a game I enjoyed in parts and a game I don't regret buying or playing. I still have my copy of Other M and my copy of Command. They're definitely parts of series I love and although they're kinda the black sheep, (though honestly Adventures fits that description better probably), they're interesting experiences in their own way. Just, when you're a fan of something you're more likely to get critical of little things. So, relatively above average games that just don't quite stand up to their peers in the franchise, imo.

I get the feel about just having Krystal show up again. After Zero came out, I told our group that we're in the K.Rool group's position now, though we never were quite as big as Rool's group. But the comparison was that now we have our character legitimately missing from her home series and our push for her in Smash had to also pivot towards a push for her to return to the Star Fox series. Your comment on "Rare" and your ever characteristic name/avatar just reminded me of that. Would be awesome if K. Rool appeared in a third DKC to finish out a "Returns Trilogy", even if Retro isn't involved directly this time potentially. Feels right to do and I know Rool fans have been wishing for it. Likewise, the next Star Fox should return to a timeline with Krystal. Whether that's something like a game set between Adventures and Assualt, after Assualt, or after Command, or even a remake. Though, at this time, feels like maybe she needs a reintroduction however you might do that. I don't know that K. Rool does however since the DK games have always been a bit lighter on story obviously. The baddies of the Returns and Tropical Freeze games didn't get an intro other than a quick little cinematic at the start. Though K. Rool is more of a character, I could see a third DKCR game kinda just sneaking him in like he never left, Ganon style. Maybe not everyone would get it but the old fans certainly would. Not sure if Krystal can do that as easily, but I'd not object if they just did. Maybe at least an Assault or Adventures HD or remake would be helpful though.
 
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ryuu seika

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I didn't mind the RTS elements of Command and I can agree that, even if it was pretty poorly executed, the idea of exploring character development in a choose your own adventure/visual novel style is a good one.

Personalised ships is a more questionable decision as, within the preestablished world, that's more of a team thing than an individual thing but, gameplay-wise, it helps to make the cast more unique. Were the fact that these were individuals working together again, not members of the same team, more evident, I'd be quite happy with it.

What really put me off Command was the actual combat. The hassle that is actually lining up a shot in a 1v1 dogfight has always been a series weak point, IMO. Taking that, adding a time limit and calling that the main form of battle was an obnoxious choice.

My experience with Command was simply me failing to find my enemies, losing three or so battles because of it and having great fox go down without a single shot landed by either side. It was so dumb.

But I get that, if you're better at the dog fights, the rest of you might actually find the game playable. I just don't.
 

Gagnetar

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392
I'll admit Command's my least favorite Star Fox, but then I never did play 64 3D, or if I did it was very unmemorable... and I only tried a small fraction of Zero. Command was a good game, but in terms of Star Fox for me, the weakest one I actually beat. The controls were a bit of a pain (but can't be worse than Zero probabaly) and the story line was new but did a lot of things beyond just the Krystal stuff that felt weird. I didn't quite like the new characters or the writing for any character really or the progression of the story for instance. I can say it was new and some of the stages were interesting, plus some innovative ideas about how to map the game progression more strategically and personalized ships was probably the best new idea to come out of it for me. But the story and controls kinda bothered me throughout. It's like the Other M of Star Fox for me except that it didn't necessarily mess with the flow of the game in a negative way too. And I know maybe it seems harsh to compare to Other M and I'll say that Other M is my least favorite Metroid, but it's also a game I enjoyed in parts and a game I don't regret buying or playing. I still have my copy of Other M and my copy of Command. They're definitely parts of series I love and although they're kinda the black sheep, (though honestly Adventures fits that description better probably), they're interesting experiences in their own way. Just, when you're a fan of something you're more likely to get critical of little things. So, relatively above average games that just don't quite stand up to their peers in the franchise, imo.

I get the feel about just having Krystal show up again. After Zero came out, I told our group that we're in the K.Rool group's position now, though we never were quite as big as Rool's group. But the comparison was that now we have our character legitimately missing from her home series and our push for her in Smash had to also pivot towards a push for her to return to the Star Fox series. Your comment on "Rare" and your ever characteristic name/avatar just reminded me of that. Would be awesome if K. Rool appeared in a third DKC to finish out a "Returns Trilogy", even if Retro isn't involved directly this time potentially. Feels right to do and I know Rool fans have been wishing for it. Likewise, the next Star Fox should return to a timeline with Krystal. Whether that's something like a game set between Adventures and Assualt, after Assualt, or after Command, or even a remake. Though, at this time, feels like maybe she needs a reintroduction however you might do that. I don't know that K. Rool does however since the DK games have always been a bit lighter on story obviously. The baddies of the Returns and Tropical Freeze games didn't get an intro other than a quick little cinematic at the start. Though K. Rool is more of a character, I could see a third DKCR game kinda just sneaking him in like he never left, Ganon style. Maybe not everyone would get it but the old fans certainly would. Not sure if Krystal can do that as easily, but I'd not object if they just did. Maybe at least an Assault or Adventures HD or remake would be helpful though.
I compare the two of them all the time it's not really a harsh comparison. My experience with Other M is probably a bit different than others. See my favorite game of all time is Metroid Fusion, and Other M borrows a lot from it, particularly Samus's obsession for this man Adam Malkovich, aswell as the sector based areas (and the odd resident evil offbrand of scientist type being Bergmen which phonetically is awfully similar to Birkin from resident evil) So I saw the first trailer and they had this black dude say "Any objections, Lady?" which caused me to squee like a fan girl which is monstrously rare. Game comes out and for some reason the black dude isn't Adam, Samus monologues to herself in Fusion but it's even more present in Other M, and in Fusion you never really get the impression that Samus was weak, after all she takes charge herself, just as we would expect, to destroy the whole station to end the X threat. However in Other M they exaggerate this and instead of making samus have her own strength like in Fusion she is wholefully dependent to this man, and as they dig deeper, make her nothing more than a laughable edgy teenager who just needs daddy's approval. In fact, an interview was translated with Sakamoto and the storyboard artist for Other M and they said quote "Samus has trouble coping" Which is just insane. And therein lies the issue, you take something that we've come to expect strength, independence and skill, and give us the opposite. It's remarkable that anyone could have thought people would like that, Though based on Sakamoto's reaction I doubt he really cared about what we wanted. Amusingly Other M was some of the most fun I had actually had playing a metroid game in terms of gameplay, I loved the high-action it had

Now with Command they do a similiar thing with Krystal, they take something most of us put with being lovable and kind to the purest undesirable and sadistic design that Imamura could muster. And again it's insane to expect anyone to like it. Oh another small thing that irritates, both Samus and Krystal receive the "Princess" nickname in these games, both given by otherwise likable characters (Anthony and Wolf respectively). That nickname is demeaning to someone like Samus and hilariously misplaced to command Krystal. Don't forget they're both space orphans with some connection to psychic ability, who wear blue and are voiced by the same person.

Though despite heavy similarities I'd say the reasons behind these things differ, Other M seems to be telling the tale of Samus's past, whereas I'd say that Command was a deliberate central concept to enhance character drama, I mean they shove it in your face in the intro, among it's high prevalance through out the game. I also have to agree, I didn't find the new characters particularly interesting, I felt like Dash existed just for that stupid ending, Lucy and Vivian I don't really have an opinion of, I guess someone wanted to put some more female characters and also wanted to flesh out peppy a bit. Amanda is just some kind of joke the developers pulled to have Slippy be the stable one. and I consider command Katt a seperate entity all together; the redesign was probably one of the most random and pointless things they did honestly, I can understand, though not agree with, the other decisions but not what they did with Katt. Why not right? I think why has a stronger pull there if you ask me.

You didn't really miss anything with Zero, it's an uninspired game that didn't really need to exist, You'll have a more enjoyable experience with 64 3D, Controls are as bad as they say, they're intuitive but it's quite difficult to free hand aim at the speed they want you to do it, You're more inclined to spam charge shots at things as a result. This makes them feel like a filter that exists to slow down a game that needs to be fast. There were a couple of things I liked though, Particularly with Star Wolf i liked the Lighting Tornado attack, which is a powerful dash attack that Wolf uses to cloak the ship in some kind of energy and just ram you, aswell as the Hunter, which is a wolf-like ground shift form for the Wolfen. Lastly, Andross is actually racist which I found interesting, he keeps talking **** about dogs in the fight, which goes back to the root of the war which was something about dogs and monkeys being enemies and it was based on some kind of culture thing, I should probably look it up but eh..

Krystal fans over-reacted to Zero, the game replaces SF 64, it's not some new timeline, the story even isn't different, there's just several differences to the fights. They didn't throw her out, they just put her in their back pocket. If anything Zero addressed Krystal more than 64 or the original could considering Sauria was mentioned in the trailer, Likely a good idea as being like "Hey guys, there's a planet that was never mentioned before" is pretty silly. Though the comparison is still solid as they're both fan favorites and are both largely irrelevant. Personally I think they'll have her in the next game as if she never left the franchise, I think we take things more personally than they do. Nintendo collectively places IP on ideas, they don't build ideas on IP, This lack of focus on the characters specifically can be seen. The majority of their protagonists don't really have notable personality characteristics, But we all love them and have these specific ideas of what and who they are. Hence why when it's not met Nintendo is left in confusion as why we didn't like it, this disconnect leads to this upset with us as fans.

They're starting to connect though, particularly through NoA and likely NoE aswell, Smash is an excellent example and source of how much we latch onto characters and specific renditions of said characters. So perhaps they'll try to keep in line with the characters. It's not to say that we wouldn't like innovation or changes to said characters, atleast not after peoples knee-jerk reactions. But we have some base expectations of how they should act, Krystal should be nice and Samus should be strong, just barebone things like that. Anyone would be upset if they purchased a steak and were given a salad instead. So why give us these characters and not pay respect to what we expect them to be?

Let's go back to the game I constantly forget exists with Federation Force, I compare it with Teen Titans and Teen Titans Go! This draws from the same concept of a rigid structure of what we expect something to be. Starfox has a precedent of experimentation these days, so none of us are too surprised with where they go anymore. But not Metroid, it's been a 2d or 3d atmospheric, lonely exploration focused game. The comparison lies in this pattern and expectation which has formed an almost religious construction of expectation with the franchise. Teen Titans was a fairly serious anime-like cartoon built for teens, well Teen Titans go is a wacky-zany show built for kids. This is a deliberate audience shift and despite it possibly being good is ruined by the fact that you placed this IP on an idea that isn't really what we've come to expect for that IP. Federation Force is a cartoony mockery of Metroid that appears to pay no respect to the franchise whatsoever, Samus not initially being in it is just a small fraction of the issue. There's little reason why Metroid fans should have liked it when it wasn't mean't to be a Metroid experience, innovation or changes in mind. Innovation was making a 3D-FPS of Metroid when we've only had 2D-platformers, Not shifting a serious atmosphere adventure game to a comedic-looking 4-player multiplayer game. At some point you lose what was the property to begin with. Quite awesomely though the game didn't sell nearly anything, despite Reggie's bombastic ignorance that we would get over it and buy the game anyway. I feel a bit bad for the company that had to make the game though.

I didn't mind the RTS elements of Command and I can agree that, even if it was pretty poorly executed, the idea of exploring character development in a choose your own adventure/visual novel style is a good one.

Personalised ships is a more questionable decision as, within the preestablished world, that's more of a team thing than an individual thing but, gameplay-wise, it helps to make the cast more unique. Were the fact that these were individuals working together again, not members of the same team, more evident, I'd be quite happy with it.

What really put me off Command was the actual combat. The hassle that is actually lining up a shot in a 1v1 dogfight has always been a series weak point, IMO. Taking that, adding a time limit and calling that the main form of battle was an obnoxious choice.

My experience with Command was simply me failing to find my enemies, losing three or so battles because of it and having great fox go down without a single shot landed by either side. It was so dumb.

But I get that, if you're better at the dog fights, the rest of you might actually find the game playable. I just don't.
I pioneer the games custom ships, Star Fox is one of nintendo's few properties that show a baseline of actual characters, Personality-depth is a welcome change in the franchise if you ask me and doing it with the ever-central spacefighter is a great start.

Lastly there's not really much to say except git gud, I didn't really like having a timer but the actual combat was fine, you have to body guard the great fox with someone who has a lock-on function, which is most of them. You can also sorta guess where the bases are by swiping away the smoke as they tend to be spread out in an even fashion.
 
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Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
Lucy and Vivian I don't really have an opinion of
I do! :laugh:

Their existence is random and isn't explained adequately.

We're literally thrown into the game, with its over-dramatic intro, as we all know, and then at some point you've got this random character Lucy Hare, and everyone is suddenly talking about her like she's always been in the series, even though she was only introduced mere seconds beforehand.

The same goes for when Vivian gets mentioned - there's never been any suggestion of Peppy being married and having children before that point in the Star Fox 64 continuity (Peppy from the SNES continuity was much younger, so you simply didn't have any reason to expect such a thing, there). Quite the opposite, actually, since they'd previously suggested that Peppy, having barely survived what happened on Venom, went on to become a father-figure to young Fox. Granted, this doesn't rule out Peppy having his own family, but it was never even remotely suggested until Command suddenly and jarringly introduced them.

It's just bad writing, pure and simple, to have brand new characters appear out of nowhere in a product that's using an already-established setting, and then have the established characters act like they were always there.

It's made more jarring by the fact that they do introduce all of the other newcomers in a good-enough fashion - Amanda is Slippy's fiancee who he met during the team's split, and Dash is Andross' grandson, and it's perfectly feasible for these characters to have been unknown before now, unlike Lucy and Vivian. (The game was focussed on being dramatic as it was, so they could easily have said that the Venom incident broke up Peppy's marriage because he refused to quit as a pilot in spite of it, and his daughter was estranged from him as a result.)

Krystal fans over-reacted to Zero, the game replaces SF 64, it's not some new timeline, the story even isn't different, there's just several differences to the fights.
It does change the backstory again, though, which does suggest (at least to me) that it's a bit more than just a reimagining, as they claimed it was.

I should add here, be careful what you wish for, guys: I actually used to hope for a Star Fox re-reboot, and, well, look at what we got. :laugh:

So why give us these characters and not pay respect to what we expect them to be?
Not to mention not paying respect to how they themselves have depicted them in the past. (Even if their priority is on gameplay, it's not like they're inconsistent with the IP side, usually, as we know.)

I feel a bit bad for the company that had to make the game though.
That's Next Level Games*, and I agree, I feel bad for them too, because they're good at what they do, and I'm sure that, without the Metroid license being attached to it, Federation Force would've been received entirely differently.

*They're best-known for the Mario Strikers games, the two Punch-Out!! titles for the Wii, and Luigi's Mansion 2 for the 3DS. Their pedigree with Nintendo titles is very good.
 
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Gagnetar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
392
I do! :laugh:

Their existence is random and isn't explained adequately.

We're literally thrown into the game, with its over-dramatic intro, as we all know, and then at some point you've got this random character Lucy Hare, and everyone is suddenly talking about her like she's always been in the series, even though she was only introduced mere seconds beforehand.

The same goes for when Vivian gets mentioned - there's never been any suggestion of Peppy being married and having children before that point in the Star Fox 64 continuity (Peppy from the SNES continuity was much younger, so you simply didn't have any reason to expect such a thing, there). Quite the opposite, actually, since they'd previously suggested that Peppy, having barely survived what happened on Venom, went on to become a father-figure to young Fox. Granted, this doesn't rule out Peppy having his own family, but it was never even remotely suggested until Command suddenly and jarringly introduced them.

It's just bad writing, pure and simple, to have brand new characters appear out of nowhere in a product that's using an already-established setting, and then have the established characters act like they were always there.

It's made more jarring by the fact that they do introduce all of the other newcomers in a good-enough fashion - Amanda is Slippy's fiancee who he met during the team's split, and Dash is Andross' grandson, and it's perfectly feasible for these characters to have been unknown before now, unlike Lucy and Vivian. (The game was focused on being dramatic as it was, so they could easily have said that the Venom incident broke up Peppy's marriage because he refused to quit as a pilot in spite of it, and his daughter was estranged from him as a result.)


It does change the backstory again, though, which does suggest (at least to me) that it's a bit more than just a reimagining, as they claimed it was.

I should add here, be careful what you wish for, guys: I actually used to hope for a Star Fox re-reboot, and, well, look at what we got. :laugh:


Not to mention not paying respect to how they themselves have depicted them in the past. (Even if their priority is on gameplay, it's not like they're inconsistent with the IP side, usually, as we know.)


That's Next Level Games*, and I agree, I feel bad for them too, because they're good at what they do, and I'm sure that, without the Metroid license being attached to it, Federation Force would've been received entirely differently.

*They're best-known for the Mario Strikers games, the two Punch-Out!! titles for the Wii, and Luigi's Mansion 2 for the 3DS. Their pedigree with Nintendo titles is very good.
Lol you make a perfect addition with Lucy and Vivian, It's pretty funny actually to introduce us to a character who's dead.

I never hoped for a reboot, I just wanted them to ignore command's existence and just make another sequel to assault that wasn't written by a 12-year old. The term re-imagining was likely coined to prevent people for seeing the game as something as a simple remake. It's a minor tweak at best to their past, almost just a gear upgrade. So it's acceptable to call it this fancy self-made term as it takes remake of the remake and tweaks it even more, albeit it's a very weak change. You could place SF2 after this, or place the Krystal continuity and it wouldn't be out of place. It's totally possible they could rebuilt some kind of game that has it's own canon involving the SF2 characters and Krystal, or however they mix-and-match things. But the main point is I'm not too concerned about the fair vixen, when we get the next one new SF game, she'll be in it. There's no reason to keep vomiting out remakes of the original game, I'd imagine anyone involved with SF for a duration on the team would likely say that now. I know Cuthbert feels that it's time for a new game.

I actually like Luigi's Mansion 2, It was a pretty great sequel to game that was never meant to be anything other than a singular title and concept.
 

Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
I never hoped for a reboot, I just wanted them to ignore command's existence and just make another sequel to assault that wasn't written by a 12-year old.
That was the other thing that I'd've been happy to settle for. :laugh:

But the main point is I'm not too concerned about the fair vixen, when we get the next one new SF game, she'll be in it.
Agreed - I really don't think she'll stay gone for too long, somehow. Not with how things look right now, where we're seeing mentions of Krystal in officially-licensed media that wasn't even covering the continuity that she's from, and where we're also seeing greater fan acceptance of Adventures and Assault, which I don't remember ever really being the case before.

I actually like Luigi's Mansion 2, It was a pretty great sequel to game that was never meant to be anything other than a singular title and concept.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty good, too. The multi-player element was quite a nice surprise, as well, since it's not something you'd expect in a sequel that sticks pretty closely to what was established by the entirely single-player game before it.
 

jahkzheng

Smash Lord
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,653
Location
Northern California
I compare the two of them all the time it's not really a harsh comparison. My experience with Other M is probably a bit different than others. See my favorite game of all time is Metroid Fusion, and Other M borrows a lot from it, particularly Samus's obsession for this man Adam Malkovich, aswell as the sector based areas (and the odd resident evil offbrand of scientist type being Bergmen which phonetically is awfully similar to Birkin from resident evil) So I saw the first trailer and they had this black dude say "Any objections, Lady?" which caused me to squee like a fan girl which is monstrously rare. Game comes out and for some reason the black dude isn't Adam, Samus monologues to herself in Fusion but it's even more present in Other M, and in Fusion you never really get the impression that Samus was weak, after all she takes charge herself, just as we would expect, to destroy the whole station to end the X threat. However in Other M they exaggerate this and instead of making samus have her own strength like in Fusion she is wholefully dependent to this man, and as they dig deeper, make her nothing more than a laughable edgy teenager who just needs daddy's approval. In fact, an interview was translated with Sakamoto and the storyboard artist for Other M and they said quote "Samus has trouble coping" Which is just insane. And therein lies the issue, you take something that we've come to expect strength, independence and skill, and give us the opposite. It's remarkable that anyone could have thought people would like that, Though based on Sakamoto's reaction I doubt he really cared about what we wanted. Amusingly Other M was some of the most fun I had actually had playing a metroid game in terms of gameplay, I loved the high-action it had

Now with Command they do a similiar thing with Krystal, they take something most of us put with being lovable and kind to the purest undesirable and sadistic design that Imamura could muster. And again it's insane to expect anyone to like it. Oh another small thing that irritates, both Samus and Krystal receive the "Princess" nickname in these games, both given by otherwise likable characters (Anthony and Wolf respectively). That nickname is demeaning to someone like Samus and hilariously misplaced to command Krystal. Don't forget they're both space orphans with some connection to psychic ability, who wear blue and are voiced by the same person.

Though despite heavy similarities I'd say the reasons behind these things differ, Other M seems to be telling the tale of Samus's past, whereas I'd say that Command was a deliberate central concept to enhance character drama, I mean they shove it in your face in the intro, among it's high prevalance through out the game. I also have to agree, I didn't find the new characters particularly interesting, I felt like Dash existed just for that stupid ending, Lucy and Vivian I don't really have an opinion of, I guess someone wanted to put some more female characters and also wanted to flesh out peppy a bit. Amanda is just some kind of joke the developers pulled to have Slippy be the stable one. and I consider command Katt a seperate entity all together; the redesign was probably one of the most random and pointless things they did honestly, I can understand, though not agree with, the other decisions but not what they did with Katt. Why not right? I think why has a stronger pull there if you ask me.

You didn't really miss anything with Zero, it's an uninspired game that didn't really need to exist, You'll have a more enjoyable experience with 64 3D, Controls are as bad as they say, they're intuitive but it's quite difficult to free hand aim at the speed they want you to do it, You're more inclined to spam charge shots at things as a result. This makes them feel like a filter that exists to slow down a game that needs to be fast. There were a couple of things I liked though, Particularly with Star Wolf i liked the Lighting Tornado attack, which is a powerful dash attack that Wolf uses to cloak the ship in some kind of energy and just ram you, aswell as the Hunter, which is a wolf-like ground shift form for the Wolfen. Lastly, Andross is actually racist which I found interesting, he keeps talking **** about dogs in the fight, which goes back to the root of the war which was something about dogs and monkeys being enemies and it was based on some kind of culture thing, I should probably look it up but eh..

Krystal fans over-reacted to Zero, the game replaces SF 64, it's not some new timeline, the story even isn't different, there's just several differences to the fights. They didn't throw her out, they just put her in their back pocket. If anything Zero addressed Krystal more than 64 or the original could considering Sauria was mentioned in the trailer, Likely a good idea as being like "Hey guys, there's a planet that was never mentioned before" is pretty silly. Though the comparison is still solid as they're both fan favorites and are both largely irrelevant. Personally I think they'll have her in the next game as if she never left the franchise, I think we take things more personally than they do. Nintendo collectively places IP on ideas, they don't build ideas on IP, This lack of focus on the characters specifically can be seen. The majority of their protagonists don't really have notable personality characteristics, But we all love them and have these specific ideas of what and who they are. Hence why when it's not met Nintendo is left in confusion as why we didn't like it, this disconnect leads to this upset with us as fans.

They're starting to connect though, particularly through NoA and likely NoE aswell, Smash is an excellent example and source of how much we latch onto characters and specific renditions of said characters. So perhaps they'll try to keep in line with the characters. It's not to say that we wouldn't like innovation or changes to said characters, atleast not after peoples knee-jerk reactions. But we have some base expectations of how they should act, Krystal should be nice and Samus should be strong, just barebone things like that. Anyone would be upset if they purchased a steak and were given a salad instead. So why give us these characters and not pay respect to what we expect them to be?

Let's go back to the game I constantly forget exists with Federation Force, I compare it with Teen Titans and Teen Titans Go! This draws from the same concept of a rigid structure of what we expect something to be. Starfox has a precedent of experimentation these days, so none of us are too surprised with where they go anymore. But not Metroid, it's been a 2d or 3d atmospheric, lonely exploration focused game. The comparison lies in this pattern and expectation which has formed an almost religious construction of expectation with the franchise. Teen Titans was a fairly serious anime-like cartoon built for teens, well Teen Titans go is a wacky-zany show built for kids. This is a deliberate audience shift and despite it possibly being good is ruined by the fact that you placed this IP on an idea that isn't really what we've come to expect for that IP. Federation Force is a cartoony mockery of Metroid that appears to pay no respect to the franchise whatsoever, Samus not initially being in it is just a small fraction of the issue. There's little reason why Metroid fans should have liked it when it wasn't mean't to be a Metroid experience, innovation or changes in mind. Innovation was making a 3D-FPS of Metroid when we've only had 2D-platformers, Not shifting a serious atmosphere adventure game to a comedic-looking 4-player multiplayer game. At some point you lose what was the property to begin with. Quite awesomely though the game didn't sell nearly anything, despite Reggie's bombastic ignorance that we would get over it and buy the game anyway. I feel a bit bad for the company that had to make the game though.



I pioneer the games custom ships, Star Fox is one of nintendo's few properties that show a baseline of actual characters, Personality-depth is a welcome change in the franchise if you ask me and doing it with the ever-central spacefighter is a great start.

Lastly there's not really much to say except git gud, I didn't really like having a timer but the actual combat was fine, you have to body guard the great fox with someone who has a lock-on function, which is most of them. You can also sorta guess where the bases are by swiping away the smoke as they tend to be spread out in an even fashion.
Nice textwall. I approve~

Btw, you saying you liked Other M forces me to ask..... play Samus Returns?

Also, yeah, I also feel Krystal is more likely to come back than not just based on the series probably wanting to steer clear of Lylat Wars again. But you never know. To say we had to pivot from Smash to Star Fox in terms of investing into something for the sake of Krystal is almost more of a "planting the seeds before concerning with a harvest" type of approach. Granted, Krystal may not need to return to her series to be in Smash, but I'd say her odds are about 10x better if she did. As of now, she's been out of the limelight for over a decade when it comes to canon appearances by Nintendo. Precedent tells us that the Smash team/Sakurai tend not to add characters that's aren't recently relevant unless it's a series mascot or something. Of course, doing unprecedented stuff is also typical of the Smash team, heh.... so it's hard to predict the odds of anything. Logic tells us that nothing is impossible really, but to really give Krystal the best shot, she needs to return to her own series first is all. And I think we all want to see that anyways.

I was disappointed that Zero didn't follow a newer story line, but I was pleased that it appeared to be a pretty different reimagining in terms of some of the things you do through the course of the campaign. It was definitely a lot more than just an HD remake or something. But that wasn't enough to grab me. I told a friend I'd buy it if we could dual control our way through it cuz everything is more fun with friends, but we ended up being busy and jobs and such and I just didn't buy it. From what's I've seen and heard, it was a decent game with an old story dressed up and altered in places with bad controls. Just didn't quite tip the scale for my interest. Krystal not showing up wasn't that big a deal really since it was another Lylat Wars scenario game and she wasn't around at that point anyways. I quickly got over her not appearing within that context, but for her Smash inclusion push two years ago... it was a pretty frustrating blow to our efforts admittedly since many of wanted to believe the Zero story would be different and her appearance would put her officially back into the limelight in a hopefully positive way. Our support would grow was the hope and the character we'd been fighting for would make a case on her own. Instead it didn't give us any direct sort of boost, though indirectly, maybe some not necessarily Krystal fans voicing disappointment at the game being Lylat Wars again and her entering the realm of nostalgia. In a way though, it's a net "nothing". Krystal's status as a wanted Smash character is about the same as it would've been if Zero hadn't come out at all probably.
 
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Mr. Brownstone

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Messages
45
The same goes for when Vivian gets mentioned - there's never been any suggestion of Peppy being married and having children before that point in the Star Fox 64 continuity (Peppy from the SNES continuity was much younger, so you simply didn't have any reason to expect such a thing, there). Quite the opposite, actually, since they'd previously suggested that Peppy, having barely survived what happened on Venom, went on to become a father-figure to young Fox. Granted, this doesn't rule out Peppy having his own family, but it was never even remotely suggested until Command suddenly and jarringly introduced them.

Well, that's not entirely true. Vivian is actually mentioned on the official japanese SF 64 website. If you translate Slippy's segment you'll be able to see it for yourself ;) It is also mentioned on Vivian's SF-wiki page ('Trivia' section). I definitely agree that the way Peppy acted in the games never gave us any indication of him having a family, though. It's just like you said: Lucy is introduced, and all of a sudden everyone acts as if she's always been a part of the franchise, while in the other games she was never mentioned at all.

Speaking of official websites. This is the one for Adventures. It shows us Krystal's age and also mentions her telepathy already, which was only hinted at in the actual game, and officially revealed later in Assault. These websites are quite interesting indeed...
 

Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
Well, that's not entirely true. Vivian is actually mentioned on the official japanese SF 64 website. If you translate Slippy's segment you'll be able to see it for yourself ;)
Wow, that's incredible! :laugh: It's also an incredible demonstration that hiding canonical information on an obscure Japan-only web-page that wasn't officially translated back in the day is a very bad idea. :laugh: (EDIT: The Japanese page for Kirby's Dream Land 3 is a similar case, so I should've expected it to happen with other old pages, too, really; That one is the origin of the canonical statement that Kirby is 20cm/8" tall - a lot of folks think it came from Smash 64, but it actually came from Kirby's Dream Land 3.)

Also, I'm highly amused by the fact that Slippy uses the term "oira", considering that Slippy is supposed to be some sort of genius. For those who don't know it, the first part of this video explains it, but basically "oira" is one of several Japanese terms that're equivalent to "I"/"me"/"myself", and "oira" is one that's associated with being used by country-bumpkins and simpletons. :p
 
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jahkzheng

Smash Lord
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,653
Location
Northern California
Well, that's not entirely true. Vivian is actually mentioned on the official japanese SF 64 website. If you translate Slippy's segment you'll be able to see it for yourself ;) It is also mentioned on Vivian's SF-wiki page ('Trivia' section). I definitely agree that the way Peppy acted in the games never gave us any indication of him having a family, though. It's just like you said: Lucy is introduced, and all of a sudden everyone acts as if she's always been a part of the franchise, while in the other games she was never mentioned at all.

Speaking of official websites. This is the one for Adventures. It shows us Krystal's age and also mentions her telepathy already, which was only hinted at in the actual game, and officially revealed later in Assault. These websites are quite interesting indeed...
Haven't looked in a while and I'm not sure how in game canon it is or if it was placed in some concept book or something... but my recollection of Krystal's age relative to the period the Lylat Wars happens as listed on a similar if not the same wiki suggested that she was only 12 or something during those events. She's like 7 years younger than Fox or something I guess. Again, haven't double checked that in a long while, but it's honestly kinda "meh" factoid to me... though partly because her being that much younger kinda makes her talents and knowledge even more surprising and she's wedged into "Mary Sue" territory even easier for being so precocious. And age and such is a "driver's license attribute" anyways like height or hair color and not nearly as interesting as personality attributes imo.
 

Mr. Brownstone

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Messages
45
Also, I'm highly amused by the fact that Slippy uses the term "oira", considering that Slippy is supposed to be some sort of genius. For those who don't know it, the first part of this video explains it, but basically "oira" is one of several Japanese terms that're equivalent to "I"/"me"/"myself", and "oira" is one that's associated with being used by country-bumpkins and simpletons. :p
Haha, just like I said: Slippy is interesting in his own ways :)


Haven't looked in a while and I'm not sure how in game canon it is or if it was placed in some concept book or something... but my recollection of Krystal's age relative to the period the Lylat Wars happens as listed on a similar if not the same wiki suggested that she was only 12 or something during those events. She's like 7 years younger than Fox or something I guess. Again, haven't double checked that in a long while, but it's honestly kinda "meh" factoid to me... though partly because her being that much younger kinda makes her talents and knowledge even more surprising and she's wedged into "Mary Sue" territory even easier for being so precocious. And age and such is a "driver's license attribute" anyways like height or hair color and not nearly as interesting as personality attributes imo.
Considering that these are indeed official websites from Nintendo, all of that stuff is a hundred percent canon. This is the only official source for Krystal's age (19 during Adventures, just like the website says). All of the wikis actually used it to determine her 'current' age in Command, which is 22 (20 in Assault, 11 in 64). So Krystal is indeed 7 years younger than Fox which some people have criticized already. I for one never had a problem with that, though.
 

Gagnetar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
392
Nice textwall. I approve~

Btw, you saying you liked Other M forces me to ask..... play Samus Returns?

Also, yeah, I also feel Krystal is more likely to come back than not just based on the series probably wanting to steer clear of Lylat Wars again. But you never know. To say we had to pivot from Smash to Star Fox in terms of investing into something for the sake of Krystal is almost more of a "planting the seeds before concerning with a harvest" type of approach. Granted, Krystal may not need to return to her series to be in Smash, but I'd say her odds are about 10x better if she did. As of now, she's been out of the limelight for over a decade when it comes to canon appearances by Nintendo. Precedent tells us that the Smash team/Sakurai tend not to add characters that's aren't recently relevant unless it's a series mascot or something. Of course, doing unprecedented stuff is also typical of the Smash team, heh.... so it's hard to predict the odds of anything. Logic tells us that nothing is impossible really, but to really give Krystal the best shot, she needs to return to her own series first is all. And I think we all want to see that anyways.

I was disappointed that Zero didn't follow a newer story line, but I was pleased that it appeared to be a pretty different reimagining in terms of some of the things you do through the course of the campaign. It was definitely a lot more than just an HD remake or something. But that wasn't enough to grab me. I told a friend I'd buy it if we could dual control our way through it cuz everything is more fun with friends, but we ended up being busy and jobs and such and I just didn't buy it. From what's I've seen and heard, it was a decent game with an old story dressed up and altered in places with bad controls. Just didn't quite tip the scale for my interest. Krystal not showing up wasn't that big a deal really since it was another Lylat Wars scenario game and she wasn't around at that point anyways. I quickly got over her not appearing within that context, but for her Smash inclusion push two years ago... it was a pretty frustrating blow to our efforts admittedly since many of wanted to believe the Zero story would be different and her appearance would put her officially back into the limelight in a hopefully positive way. Our support would grow was the hope and the character we'd been fighting for would make a case on her own. Instead it didn't give us any direct sort of boost, though indirectly, maybe some not necessarily Krystal fans voicing disappointment at the game being Lylat Wars again and her entering the realm of nostalgia. In a way though, it's a net "nothing". Krystal's status as a wanted Smash character is about the same as it would've been if Zero hadn't come out at all probably.
I got Samus Returns when it came out, had to wait 10 days since it was for my birthday but it was fine. The game is everything it was cracked up to be. It was a bit harder than I would have liked but I loved the Aeion abilities and the melee counter (PLEASE give her a better down special in smash). Enemies hit quite hard and bosses are (sue me for saying this) seem dark souls-styled bosses where you have to memorize patterns after multiple deaths (this is the easiest difficulty mind you). one for example the Queen Metroid requires very specific positioning to survive that you simply wouldn't figure out first-try. So while her new abilities are pretty potent, the game is by no means less challenging. I never played Metroid 2, and was never interested because of the dated gameboy hardware, but this is one of the few exceptions I like for remakes. It's worth picking up and playing as a traditional metroid experience with enough new bells and whistles to keep it interesting.

Krystal's chances would be much better with general relevance, as would any fighters as that appears to be traditionally how newcomers are chosen as we get lower down the Nintendo food chain. However while it's not a certainty by any extension this Smash has more going on in the regard that may give us enough to get in. See this is the first smash developed with the Ballot already existing, and it mentioned that it may affect future titles. Aswell as a general notion that Nintendo seems to be interacting with fans, like for example the Nintendo of America reddit account and the general attention to media sites like twitter. Speaking of Samus Returns and Smash, they hard called out Smash fans to go play Samus Returns, which is quite amusing. It's not really that hard to guess why, but the notion amuses me as it's asking a big fanbase to go play a niche franchise.

Speaking of Sakurai I'd still like to know what his project is, It clearly features scifi-weaponary as the figurine he purchased was done so to study the weapon, which was part of this bipedal combat robot suit gundam thing. I saw in the Wolf thread it was theorized that the project could be a Star Fox game, He also mentioned it in a way that he didn't pick out the game he was making. I saw something earlier on i think gonintendo, or a similiar site where Nintendo literally told a guy to make a 25th anniversary game for Kirby, So I wondered if it was actually possible that a Starfox game was being made in this same manner for it's 25th, It doesn't have to be Sakurai's next project it could be anyone with reason. I wonder if that would boost her Smash chances even if he wouldn't have as much influence as he seems like he doesn't want to work on this and is likely busy with his current project anyway.
 
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ryuu seika

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
4,743
Location
Amidst the abounding light of heaven!
I pioneer the games custom ships, Star Fox is one of nintendo's few properties that show a baseline of actual characters, Personality-depth is a welcome change in the franchise if you ask me and doing it with the ever-central spacefighter is a great start.
Yes, applying character personalities to gameplay via unique ship elements is a positive thing but going against the pre-established canon of Team A has these ships and Team B has these ships to do so is an issue. Not an insurmountable one at all but one that requires a little more addressing than the "oh yeah, they split up and then all got back together off screen" explanation it got. Especially as it didn't explain Krystal being different to whichever team your decisions retroactively had her having worked with for an extended period.

You can also sorta guess where the bases are by swiping away the smoke as they tend to be spread out in an even fashion.
Finding the enemy bases was easy but irrelevant if you could never get to them before instaloss.

you have to body guard the great fox with someone who has a lock-on function, which is most of them.
And they fly around and you fly around and you're lucky if you ever actually see eachother. No amount of unit placement matters if you can't succeed at the actual combat and I clearly couldn't.
 

jahkzheng

Smash Lord
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,653
Location
Northern California
Considering that these are indeed official websites from Nintendo, all of that stuff is a hundred percent canon. This is the only official source for Krystal's age (19 during Adventures, just like the website says). All of the wikis actually used it to determine her 'current' age in Command, which is 22 (20 in Assault, 11 in 64). So Krystal is indeed 7 years younger than Fox which some people have criticized already. I for one never had a problem with that, though.
It's not really that big a deal, though it feels a bit weird I'll admit. Doesn't change the way I feel about her. But then I also don't exactly canonize that info above what I see in game. Its sort of like a different level of canon to me regardless if that's actually an appropriate interpretation, heh. So yeah, it's like a side note to her character and my only gripe really is that it does open her up for some of the criticisms that maybe otherwise wouldn't be that big a deal. The whole precociousness thing. A major plus side to her age though is that we're more protected from people being like, "Hey where's Krystal in Zero? She's gone forever obviously". Then you just retort, "well, she'd still be a kid basically during Lylat Wars. You expect a kid Krystal to be suddenly on the team?"

I got Samus Returns when it came out, had to wait 10 days since it was for my birthday but it was fine. The game is everything it was cracked up to be. It was a bit harder than I would have liked but I loved the Aeion abilities and the melee counter (PLEASE give her a better down special in smash). Enemies hit quite hard and bosses are (sue me for saying this) seem dark souls-styled bosses where you have to memorize patterns after multiple deaths (this is the easiest difficulty mind you). one for example the Queen Metroid requires very specific positioning to survive that you simply wouldn't figure out first-try. So while her new abilities are pretty potent, the game is by no means less challenging. I never played Metroid 2, and was never interested because of the dated gameboy hardware, but this is one of the few exceptions I like for remakes. It's worth picking up and playing as a traditional metroid experience with enough new bells and whistles to keep it interesting.

Krystal's chances would be much better with general relevance, as would any fighters as that appears to be traditionally how newcomers are chosen as we get lower down the Nintendo food chain. However while it's not a certainty by any extension this Smash has more going on in the regard that may give us enough to get in. See this is the first smash developed with the Ballot already existing, and it mentioned that it may affect future titles. Aswell as a general notion that Nintendo seems to be interacting with fans, like for example the Nintendo of America reddit account and the general attention to media sites like twitter. Speaking of Samus Returns and Smash, they hard called out Smash fans to go play Samus Returns, which is quite amusing. It's not really that hard to guess why, but the notion amuses me as it's asking a big fanbase to go play a niche franchise.

Speaking of Sakurai I'd still like to know what his project is, It clearly features scifi-weaponary as the figurine he purchased was done so to study the weapon, which was part of this bipedal combat robot suit gundam thing. I saw in the Wolf thread it was theorized that the project could be a Star Fox game, He also mentioned it in a way that he didn't pick out the game he was making. I saw something earlier on i think gonintendo, or a similiar site where Nintendo literally told a guy to make a 25th anniversary game for Kirby, So I wondered if it was actually possible that a Starfox game was being made in this same manner for it's 25th, It doesn't have to be Sakurai's next project it could be anyone with reason. I wonder if that would boost her Smash chances even if he wouldn't have as much influence as he seems like he doesn't want to work on this and is likely busy with his current project anyway.
Yeah, I got it day one and had a busy weekend right after followed by class so I actually didn't get a chance to start it until 5 days after buying myself, funnily enough. I loved it. I like the mixture of the classic 2D feel with a Primey art/music style and Other M's actiony stuff. It felt great to play. It was pretty challenging in places I'll admit, but never so much to slow me down. The hardest boss for me was probably the mining robot mostly because I kept screwing up the morphball part and dragging the whole thing out until I died due to attrition. Once I got through the section cleanly though, I had enough damage to play with that I quickly learned how to handle the final stage. Think I beat the robot on my 5th try? Figured everything out pretty fast with the Queen and got her on the second try. The final final boss on the third try, and boy that was a fun one. The thing that killed me the most though was some random gamma metroid that I was too stubborn to find health to face after the autosave and when I ran into it I had like 40 health on one tank, almost no aeion, and no missiles somehow, lol. Took me like 10 tries to beat it since I basically could not get hit more than once, and it was early on with the gammas as well. I think my first zeta took at least 3 tries cuz I failed at figuring out the grapple trick too. I'll admit my first play through I was very stingy about getting every powerup I could before moving on so I was never really lacking in expansions. In my second, knowing all the enemies tricks and stuff, I blew through all the bosses I faced with similar expansions as I did the first time and got a 6 hour run out of that. My first playthrough was 16 hours, heh. But yeah, I loved it too.

I hope the ballot means something for the next Smash truly, not to mention the fact that an old poll they took pre-Brawl implied that Krystal was a very popular pick then of course. I dont know really how well we did though. Based on our own polling that crossed many communities, Bayo didn't seem like the winner of the ballot, though evidently she was. K.Rool seemed pretty solidly the most popular first party newcomer in our polls and Krystal was top 5 or just outside among first party newcomers. But that was only among people that actually took our polls and even our most popular polls only got votes in numbers that were a tiny fraction of the voters on the official ballot. Like maybe 1% of ballot voters in our polls or around there.

Yeah, the Samus comment implies that either, if you like Smash Samus you'll appreciate how Samus feels in Returns, orrrrr, the more interesting yet perhaps reaching consideration, the next Smash might be borrowing from Returns already.
 
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Gagnetar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
392
It's not really that big a deal, though it feels a bit weird I'll admit. Doesn't change the way I feel about her. But then I also don't exactly canonize that info above what I see in game. Its sort of like a different level of canon to me regardless if that's actually an appropriate interpretation, heh. So yeah, it's like a side note to her character and my only gripe really is that it does open her up for some of the criticisms that maybe otherwise wouldn't be that big a deal. The whole precociousness thing. A major plus side to her age though is that we're more protected from people being like, "Hey where's Krystal in Zero? She's gone forever obviously". Then you just retort, "well, she'd still be a kid basically during Lylat Wars. You expect a kid Krystal to be suddenly on the team?"



Yeah, I got it day one and had a busy weekend right after followed by class so I actually didn't get a chance to start it until 5 days after buying myself, funnily enough. I loved it. I like the mixture of the classic 2D feel with a Primey art/music style and Other M's actiony stuff. It felt great to play. It was pretty challenging in places I'll admit, but never so much to slow me down. The hardest boss for me was probably the mining robot mostly because I kept screwing up the morphball part and dragging the whole thing out until I died due to attrition. Once I got through the section cleanly though, I had enough damage to play with that I quickly learned how to handle the final stage. Think I beat the robot on my 5th try? Figured everything out pretty fast with the Queen and got her on the second try. The final final boss on the third try, and boy that was a fun one. The thing that killed me the most though was some random gamma metroid that I was too stubborn to find health to face after the autosave and when I ran into it I had like 40 health on one tank, almost no aeion, and no missiles somehow, lol. Took me like 10 tries to beat it since I basically could not get hit more than once, and it was early on with the gammas as well. I think my first zeta took at least 3 tries cuz I failed at figuring out the grapple trick too. I'll admit my first play through I was very stingy about getting every powerup I could before moving on so I was never really lacking in expansions. In my second, knowing all the enemies tricks and stuff, I blew through all the bosses I faced with similar expansions as I did the first time and got a 6 hour run out of that. My first playthrough was 16 hours, heh. But yeah, I loved it too.

I hope the ballot means something for the next Smash truly, not to mention the fact that an old poll they took pre-Brawl implied that Krystal was a very popular pick then of course. I dont know really how well we did though. Based on our own polling that crossed many communities, Bayo didn't seem like the winner of the ballot, though evidently she was. K.Rool seemed pretty solidly the most popular first party newcomer in our polls and Krystal was top 5 or just outside among first party newcomers. But that was only among people that actually took our polls and even our most popular polls only got votes in numbers that were a tiny fraction of the voters on the official ballot. Like maybe 1% of ballot voters in our polls or around there.

Yeah, the Samus comment implies that either, if you like Smash Samus you'll appreciate how Samus feels in Returns, orrrrr, the more interesting yet perhaps reaching consideration, the next Smash might be borrowing from Returns already.
I was the digger's *****, I didn't figure out the morph ball part and even when I did the game refused to let the last node take damage and die. It took me like 2 hours to beat him. You're a stronger man than me lol. I did dominate the Omega Metroids, but that was because I was dedicated to beating them as I sorta saw it as my passage as a Fusion fan. No wonder the digger bot was on the cover. He's quite annoying, But I never really learned how to give up. Also I tend to try to mow down everything in my way and move on quickly, That's a large part of why Fusion is my favorite compared to the likes of Prime 2, which is my favorite prime game.

This is mentioned on the general speculation thread but you can't really decide popularity from one place, and fan polls only have so many people, and the bias of that group will affect the polls. The best thing we can do is try to gauge her popularity by using an array of sources. So I think it's safe to say the Smash ballot results are unpredictable at best, I mean there's a bunch of things to account for, even something like misspelling a character's name almost certainly happened. But I do thing we have reason to believe she has meaningful popularity, It's just annoying that we can't see the results of the ballot, aswell as morely, I've been saying this for a while. But I want to just know what Smash 6's roster is, sure I'll be disappointed if Krystal isn't in it, but this constant conclusion of just having to wait and see what it is has been a thorn that I've never been able to remove and would really rather just know what the deal is.
 

Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
Bayo didn't seem like the winner of the ballot, though evidently she was
What her creators said about that in an interview makes it sound different, though;

What are your thoughts on Bayonetta making it into Super Smash Bros.? How involved were you in that process?

I didn’t have that discussion with Sakurai myself. I think Sakurai most likely puts characters in that he really likes, so he must have really liked Bayonetta. I was really happy to see Bayonetta in Smash. I hope she’s in future Smash games as well.

And he’s written good things about Bayonetta in his Famitsu column as well.
This wording appears to be mutually exclusive to the response that I would've expected any company to give regarding their character being chosen as part of a big PR event, which would be something like "We're grateful to our fans for voting for our character to be added to Smash!".

Yeah, the Samus comment implies that either, if you like Smash Samus you'll appreciate how Samus feels in Returns, orrrrr, the more interesting yet perhaps reaching consideration, the next Smash might be borrowing from Returns already.
Let's be honest, the way that that statement was used in that footage was incredibly strange. It barely seems relevant to me at all unless it really is talking about Smash Switch.

So I think it's safe to say the Smash ballot results are unpredictable at best, I mean there's a bunch of things to account for, even something like misspelling a character's name almost certainly happened.
There's also very likely a lot of bunk data, unfortunately - it's not like the old days of these polls, when they were Japan-only during a different era of the internet or, for the pre-Melee one, restricted to entry via a magazine. These days, as dangeraaron10 dangeraaron10 has pointed out to me elsewhere, if you open up a poll like this, cheaters, bots, and junk data are an inevitability. And that's not to even mention the likelihood of spambots using it to try to send ads, and so on, since those things tend to indiscriminately go for any public form that they can fill in.

But I want to just know what Smash 6's roster is, sure I'll be disappointed if Krystal isn't in it, but this constant conclusion of just having to wait and see what it is has been a thorn that I've never been able to remove and would really rather just know what the deal is.
At this point, we're definitely not going to know until next year - it looks like we'll most likely be hearing about the Switch's 2018 line-up in what's probably going to be the New Year at the earliest.
 

dangeraaron10

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
3,222
Location
Ohio
I'm not sure if Tortilla Noggin Tortilla Noggin has touched on it before but definitely has over in the B.Dee social

Sakurai chose lower scoring characters from polls in the past. As in, he opted out of choosing top scoring characters for lower ones if he likes them better or thinks they'd make interesting fighters. As evidenced in the "Smash 2" Poll. The Smash Ballot might have been useful for gathering data on a bigger scale with a single input for data, but you'd be hard pressed to make any comprehensible results from it due to misspellings, different spellings of the same name, cheaters, bots, etc.

I'm sure someone combed through the data but I don't think Sakurai necessarily did himself.

The only real point of this is to say that the Ballot probably doesn't mean much but a more convenient list of characters for the development team. Myself certainly I feel I put too much personal stock into the Ballot when it first came out.
 

Smokey21

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
195
It was encouraging in a way to see that response and some indirect Krystal support, but for the health of the series I think we were all hoping Zero would be better than it ended up being, Krystal or no. We knew, though few others seemed to, that Zero's "reimagining" wasn't the death of Krystal. Often had to remind people that Lylat Wars happened before Krystal showed up, and even if Zero was an alternate universe where the events of Lylat Wars were a bit different, that doesn't mean Krystal suddenly doesn't exist. She's alive during Lylat Wars... just not with the team. Doing something that may or may not end up with her being back on board by some other way. Some of us even dreamed that the new timeline maybe created with Zero might invite a new Adventures where her role is more active in that "reimagining" cuz "new timeline" or whatever. Yeah, there was a chance Krystal wouldn't rejoin the team cuz different timeline, but it was definitely not impossible like some implied, heh.

So yeah, I think many of us accepted Zero and speculated on how Krystal might show up next. But if Zero isn't a "timeline" Nintendo wants to play with anyways, then we're still just as well as Krystal fans. We'll see what they do next chance they get. As I said a couple pages back as I recall, the success of the Switch ought to make Nintendo less averse to risk. And with Zero not hitting it off Star Fox is certainly on the idea backburner. Switch success might be the impetus for them to explore the series again sooner than expected.
Yeah it was pretty much a case of "the reviews said controls were bad and that it was the same game/story as SF 64," so many fans didn't even get the game. It also drew out a lot of Krystal fans, I can't even count how many youtube plays of Zero I watched where someone at some point said, "where is Krystal". one of them I watched was pretty funny and the guy thought that katt was Krystal I didn't even think that was possible. lol. He was disappointed when her name was called out in game though, although I am still confused how you can look at katt's portrait and say "is that Krystal" lol. And yea, according to the adventures manual her age in adventures was 19(8 years after lylat wars), so unless they re-wrote her age she just wouldn't fit, being 11 and all.

I honestly don't think that they can avoid including her into a future title at this point, so we're just playing the waiting game. It just sucks being kept in the dark as long as nintendo does this for. Though lately they have given us a lot with the official note of her existence in the SNES classic manual that didn't even have to mention her existence but still did. Maybe this is Nintendo's way of telling us Krystal fans to look forward to the future in a veiled way. I guess we will find out next year around the anniversary? either way the fact that Nintendo went out of their way to do something like that is incredibly awesome to us as Krystal fans and we have a lot to look forward to and to stay positive!

I browsed the page I linked and the page after is all, yesterday. It's a little funny to see us making broad predictions, many of which were wrong. I myself tried to be careful with broad predictions but one I definitely got wrong was being so confident that Wolf would come back to Smash as DLC. After Lucas in particular, it seemed impossible that they wouldn't bring him back. It's still a surprise in retrospect. And of course we had lots of hopes for Zero early on before much was known and very few of them came to be. Though even at that point many of us recognized that Miyamoto was going to play down any story aspect and probably focus too much on forcing awkward mechanics, and that came true. I admit I got a good laugh out of Ian saying Roy simply would not come back though, heh~
I was pretty confident that wolf would come back too. I am sure Nintendo has heard from Star Fox fans as a whole about how "unfair it is to only have 2 star fox reps" even in an under-represented franchise like star fox where we had 3 before and it went down to include more Fire Emblem reps(we all know that's not the main reason it's just an example of what we got instead).

also it was Hashimoto in particular, who was the most influential Platinum Games member of the team, aswell as being pretty big in the company himself, I think he's co-founder or something I don't really remember. Either way Kamiya could have been the person to work on Zero, he was actually a bit jealous of Hashimoto for getting the chance. however he only cares about the original and 64, and actually has no idea who Krystal is. Not like it really would have changed the game but we certainly wouldn't have had the response had we ended up with Kamiya in charge of it when Sweeto asked about her, I'd hope that the message was seen by nintendo, it was reported by multiple news outlets even.

I hear that Koizumi tells us to expect more non-traditional IPs to appear on the Switch, combining this with their desire for mature games to appear on the console with Reggie's statement that they want everyone from 5 to 95 playing this makes me think they'll want to do literally everything they can with their brand to get people to play the Switch. If I had to theorize with the data Tort presented and our theories of it being based on Smash 4 & 5, aswell as my personal belief in that old rumor that addressed smash brothers as "huge work" That it's going to be the best smash brothers game in terms of characters atleast for a good while, aswell as there's a high chance of seeing a Starfox game easily in the lifetime of the switch based on that notion that they seem to be pulling everything they have out. We don't have too long to find out if we're getting one for the anniversary of SF.
Yeah that twitter post got a lot of attention and that was very good for us. Didn't you ask Kamiya about Krystal before and he was like wah? who's that? I think I remember you saying something about that a while ago. Definitely glad he didn't get to work on Zero then or we wouldn't have got that attention.

Yeah Reggie's statement saying that Nintendo will address at least one game per franchise confirms that we will get a Star Fox game soon(1-2 years) as well. Wouldn't it be great if we got a Star Fox game announcement in February(teasing Krystal's return) and then smash at e3 the same year teasing Krystal in smash? I dunno if that's likely to happen but it's still a fun thought to have for the time being, since we're all playing the waiting game.

Now with Command they do a similiar thing with Krystal, they take something most of us put with being lovable and kind to the purest undesirable and sadistic design that Imamura could muster. And again it's insane to expect anyone to like it. Oh another small thing that irritates, both Samus and Krystal receive the "Princess" nickname in these games, both given by otherwise likable characters (Anthony and Wolf respectively). That nickname is demeaning to someone like Samus and hilariously misplaced to command Krystal. Don't forget they're both space orphans with some connection to psychic ability, who wear blue and are voiced by the same person.Krystal fans over-reacted to Zero, the game replaces SF 64, it's not some new timeline, the story even isn't different, there's just several differences to the fights. They didn't throw her out, they just put her in their back pocket. If anything Zero addressed Krystal more than 64 or the original could considering Sauria was mentioned in the trailer, Likely a good idea as being like "Hey guys, there's a planet that was never mentioned before" is pretty silly. Though the comparison is still solid as they're both fan favorites and are both largely irrelevant. Personally I think they'll have her in the next game as if she never left the franchise, I think we take things more personally than they do. Nintendo collectively places IP on ideas, they don't build ideas on IP, This lack of focus on the characters specifically can be seen. The majority of their protagonists don't really have notable personality characteristics, But we all love them and have these specific ideas of what and who they are. Hence why when it's not met Nintendo is left in confusion as why we didn't like it, this disconnect leads to this upset with us as fans.

They're starting to connect though, particularly through NoA and likely NoE aswell, Smash is an excellent example and source of how much we latch onto characters and specific renditions of said characters. So perhaps they'll try to keep in line with the characters. It's not to say that we wouldn't like innovation or changes to said characters, atleast not after peoples knee-jerk reactions. But we have some base expectations of how they should act, Krystal should be nice and Samus should be strong, just barebone things like that. Anyone would be upset if they purchased a steak and were given a salad instead. So why give us these characters and not pay respect to what we expect them to be?
Many Krystal fans did over-react to Zero, I completely agree, I've seen some people say things like, "I won't get Zero because Krystal isn't in it" and other iterations of it similarly, which wasn't good for fans of the series as a whole. I was lucky in a way because I didn't have to pay for it, it came out around my birthday and I had friends that knew me well. it's also funny to note how many similarities there are between Krystal and Samus because there really are many. And Sauria being mentioned on "The Battle Begins" short should have been enough for Krystal fans to know that we will get our turn, though it has been 12 years since she's made a "non-cameo" appearance in any game, so Krystal fans do still have reason to be upset.

Yeah the groundwork for the character is pretty much already set in stone and any major changes(like commands) are very polarizing to the characters fans and I am sure that they are starting to notice that the fans care about stuff like that, and Nintendo has said in the past that it is going to be aggressively pursuing it's IP, and with the switch they have shown that fan interest is important to them with all the stuff they are doing on Reddit and other social media like twitter, they are listening to fans now finally, which I find refreshing. I guess we will find out in her next appearance which I am convinced will happen soon.

Nice textwall. I approve~

Btw, you saying you liked Other M forces me to ask..... play Samus Returns?

Also, yeah, I also feel Krystal is more likely to come back than not just based on the series probably wanting to steer clear of Lylat Wars again. But you never know. To say we had to pivot from Smash to Star Fox in terms of investing into something for the sake of Krystal is almost more of a "planting the seeds before concerning with a harvest" type of approach. Granted, Krystal may not need to return to her series to be in Smash, but I'd say her odds are about 10x better if she did. As of now, she's been out of the limelight for over a decade when it comes to canon appearances by Nintendo. Precedent tells us that the Smash team/Sakurai tend not to add characters that's aren't recently relevant unless it's a series mascot or something. Of course, doing unprecedented stuff is also typical of the Smash team, heh.... so it's hard to predict the odds of anything. Logic tells us that nothing is impossible really, but to really give Krystal the best shot, she needs to return to her own series first is all. And I think we all want to see that anyways.

I was disappointed that Zero didn't follow a newer story line, but I was pleased that it appeared to be a pretty different reimagining in terms of some of the things you do through the course of the campaign. It was definitely a lot more than just an HD remake or something. But that wasn't enough to grab me. I told a friend I'd buy it if we could dual control our way through it cuz everything is more fun with friends, but we ended up being busy and jobs and such and I just didn't buy it. From what's I've seen and heard, it was a decent game with an old story dressed up and altered in places with bad controls. Just didn't quite tip the scale for my interest. Krystal not showing up wasn't that big a deal really since it was another Lylat Wars scenario game and she wasn't around at that point anyways. I quickly got over her not appearing within that context, but for her Smash inclusion push two years ago... it was a pretty frustrating blow to our efforts admittedly since many of wanted to believe the Zero story would be different and her appearance would put her officially back into the limelight in a hopefully positive way. Our support would grow was the hope and the character we'd been fighting for would make a case on her own. Instead it didn't give us any direct sort of boost, though indirectly, maybe some not necessarily Krystal fans voicing disappointment at the game being Lylat Wars again and her entering the realm of nostalgia. In a way though, it's a net "nothing". Krystal's status as a wanted Smash character is about the same as it would've been if Zero hadn't come out at all probably.
Yeah I agree with you entirely. I highly doubt they will do Lylat Wars again after Zero's flop. That is an interesting way of looking at the entire situation with Krystal in that her chances are that much higher if she were to appear, I am not worried about her appearing in the next game, I am however worried that she may not show up before smash is announced, but for now I'd like to see her appear in her own franchise. If she were, however, to appear in Smash I would be elated and would get a switch the day of her announcement, but for now I am going to hold off as I don't really need a switch in the immediate future, just that I will likely get one soon.

Zero took all sorts of odd approaches to game design. Following Lylat Wars again so soon after the 3ds remake of Star Fox 64 was a jarringly odd decision. Walker mode was an interesting addition to the game that was an homage to Star Fox 2 that I was glad that they included. The gyrowing was silly, however, and it always made it so I didn't want to replay the entire game in a game where they encouraged us to replay it for high scores, that is another odd decision. It slows down an otherwise fast-paced game to a crawl. I also remember the smash push around when Star Fox Zero was announced, I also remember being very upset when we found out that it was a retelling of Lylat Wars and that she wouldn't be in it, because I also knew what that meant for smash and her inclusion as well.
 

jahkzheng

Smash Lord
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,653
Location
Northern California
This is mentioned on the general speculation thread but you can't really decide popularity from one place, and fan polls only have so many people, and the bias of that group will affect the polls. The best thing we can do is try to gauge her popularity by using an array of sources. So I think it's safe to say the Smash ballot results are unpredictable at best, I mean there's a bunch of things to account for, even something like misspelling a character's name almost certainly happened. But I do thing we have reason to believe she has meaningful popularity, It's just annoying that we can't see the results of the ballot, aswell as morely, I've been saying this for a while. But I want to just know what Smash 6's roster is, sure I'll be disappointed if Krystal isn't in it, but this constant conclusion of just having to wait and see what it is has been a thorn that I've never been able to remove and would really rather just know what the deal is.
Our biggest fan polls took from here, gamefaqs, reddit, neogaf, and other places like groups on twitter as well. Some of the bigger more popular ones spread around to lots of different communities really. Jordan's involvement at this time was a good example as he brought with him many poll voters that wouldn't normally have found any poll otherwise perhaps. Truth still remains of course that for all that poll spreading, the official ballot was far more far reaching. People that voted on the ballot maybe had a reddit account for instance but weren't around to see a poll sweep through and last a week or two. The ballot was up for almost a year. So yeah, it was less that our polls didn't get around, it's more that they weren't that big or noticeable comparatively and there's plenty of people that voted in the ballot that weren't regular to any of the sites we sent some of our polls too. Btw, I keep saying "our polls" but I'm not implying they all originated here on Smashboards from a Smashboards user, only that they were put together by members of the larger invested Smash Bros community.

What her creators said about that in an interview makes it sound different, though;
Yeah, there was speculation early on that the ballot was merely a suggestion box. Some things weren't going to "win" even if they got the most votes. The likelihood was the smash team would have a look at the top 20 requests and cherry pick what they liked. A for instance could be if Snake won the ballot but they decided it was just too much of a hassle and if they'd have added him he'd have been in the main game. They weren't going to be able to force if for DLC with all the drama surrounding Konami at the time, so they'd have cast aside that result for consideration in the future. Heck, they might've even had a rule that they weren't going to let a veteran character win anyways since they only wanted to do something new? They wanted to do something that maybe they already were kind of planning and just needed the incentive to do. Bayo may have been on a short list of "plan to tries" and when she did well she was picked. That's possible of course is all I'm saying. But, they did word it in such a way as Bayo "won". That implies good vote results, but at the same time, the fact that they picked her also means she "won". I think they also said she got the most votes in Europe so that's a bit more of a direct claim. But that could be "most votes of characters we were even considering". So yeah, it's vague in a number of places but I mostly trust what I've heard. Bayo could've won for sure. Our polling, like I said in my last post, probably only accounted for somewhere around 1% of the total number of ballot votes. I think our biggest (but also mostly secure) poll only took from something like 10,000 voters. My recollection of the ballot was that it was over a million voters.

Let's be honest, the way that that statement was used in that footage was incredibly strange. It barely seems relevant to me at all unless it really is talking about Smash Switch.
Honestly, I'm not sure. Nintendo likes to be teasey though, so I wouldn't doubt it. But then they also just throw in red herrings for fun. Could be a relatively meaningless comment too unintended to imply much of anything even if it did. Could just be them saying, "you like the more physical Samus, you'll like this Samus in Returns~". If it's a reference more concerned with details then, well, Return's melee counter has a similar look to it as Samus's upsmash and fair in Smash I guess. They're bother arcing attacks except in Smash they're slow and fire burst shot at the end of the barrel whereas the counter appears to be mostly a physical attack. Also slightly resembles a part of her jab in Smash but more flashy and powerful. I could see them altering some part of current Smash Samus's kit to give her a cape like effect with a move borrowing more solidly form the melee counter in Returns. Like change her ftilt into the melee counter or something and give it a cape effect. Would be pretty strong probably.
 
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Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
Yeah, there was speculation early on that the ballot was merely a suggestion box. Some things weren't going to "win" even if they got the most votes. The likelihood was the smash team would have a look at the top 20 requests and cherry pick what they liked. A for instance could be if Snake won the ballot but they decided it was just too much of a hassle and if they'd have added him he'd have been in the main game. They weren't going to be able to force if for DLC with all the drama surrounding Konami at the time, so they'd have cast aside that result for consideration in the future. Heck, they might've even had a rule that they weren't going to let a veteran character win anyways since they only wanted to do something new? They wanted to do something that maybe they already were kind of planning and just needed the incentive to do. Bayo may have been on a short list of "plan to tries" and when she did well she was picked. That's possible of course is all I'm saying.
Yeah, I remember all of that speculation. We'll never know if that's the way they handled it, of course, but it seems pretty likely, just going by the past past polls (such as the pre-Melee one, where a lot of low-placing characters were chosen, along with one who nobody voted for at all - the made-for-Smash amalgamation, Mr. Game & Watch, who's nothing like a real Game & Watch character, and was simply suggested in a fan-letter).

But, they did word it in such a way as Bayo "won". That implies good vote results, but at the same time, the fact that they picked her also means she "won".
Yeah, though they did have to include the legal disclaimer "*Of realisable characters".

I think they also said she got the most votes in Europe so that's a bit more of a direct claim.
I must confess to having always found that odd - to the best of my knowledge, the Bayonetta games sold less in this region than anywhere else in the world. :confused: Oh well.

I think our biggest (but also mostly secure) poll only took from something like 10,000 voters. My recollection of the ballot was that it was over a million voters.
That's right, yeah.

Like change her ftilt into the melee counter or something and give it a cape effect. Would be pretty strong probably.
I hope not. We really don't need more lame cheap one-button counter moves in Smash - the same re-skinned move already pollutes about a fifth of the roster as it is. :laugh:
 

jahkzheng

Smash Lord
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,653
Location
Northern California
Yeah it was pretty much a case of "the reviews said controls were bad and that it was the same game/story as SF 64," so many fans didn't even get the game. It also drew out a lot of Krystal fans, I can't even count how many youtube plays of Zero I watched where someone at some point said, "where is Krystal". one of them I watched was pretty funny and the guy thought that katt was Krystal I didn't even think that was possible. lol. He was disappointed when her name was called out in game though, although I am still confused how you can look at katt's portrait and say "is that Krystal" lol. And yea, according to the adventures manual her age in adventures was 19(8 years after lylat wars), so unless they re-wrote her age she just wouldn't fit, being 11 and all.

I honestly don't think that they can avoid including her into a future title at this point, so we're just playing the waiting game. It just sucks being kept in the dark as long as nintendo does this for. Though lately they have given us a lot with the official note of her existence in the SNES classic manual that didn't even have to mention her existence but still did. Maybe this is Nintendo's way of telling us Krystal fans to look forward to the future in a veiled way. I guess we will find out next year around the anniversary? either way the fact that Nintendo went out of their way to do something like that is incredibly awesome to us as Krystal fans and we have a lot to look forward to and to stay positive!


I was pretty confident that wolf would come back too. I am sure Nintendo has heard from Star Fox fans as a whole about how "unfair it is to only have 2 star fox reps" even in an under-represented franchise like star fox where we had 3 before and it went down to include more Fire Emblem reps(we all know that's not the main reason it's just an example of what we got instead).


Yeah that twitter post got a lot of attention and that was very good for us. Didn't you ask Kamiya about Krystal before and he was like wah? who's that? I think I remember you saying something about that a while ago. Definitely glad he didn't get to work on Zero then or we wouldn't have got that attention.

Yeah Reggie's statement saying that Nintendo will address at least one game per franchise confirms that we will get a Star Fox game soon(1-2 years) as well. Wouldn't it be great if we got a Star Fox game announcement in February(teasing Krystal's return) and then smash at e3 the same year teasing Krystal in smash? I dunno if that's likely to happen but it's still a fun thought to have for the time being, since we're all playing the waiting game.


Many Krystal fans did over-react to Zero, I completely agree, I've seen some people say things like, "I won't get Zero because Krystal isn't in it" and other iterations of it similarly, which wasn't good for fans of the series as a whole. I was lucky in a way because I didn't have to pay for it, it came out around my birthday and I had friends that knew me well. it's also funny to note how many similarities there are between Krystal and Samus because there really are many. And Sauria being mentioned on "The Battle Begins" short should have been enough for Krystal fans to know that we will get our turn, though it has been 12 years since she's made a "non-cameo" appearance in any game, so Krystal fans do still have reason to be upset.

Yeah the groundwork for the character is pretty much already set in stone and any major changes(like commands) are very polarizing to the characters fans and I am sure that they are starting to notice that the fans care about stuff like that, and Nintendo has said in the past that it is going to be aggressively pursuing it's IP, and with the switch they have shown that fan interest is important to them with all the stuff they are doing on Reddit and other social media like twitter, they are listening to fans now finally, which I find refreshing. I guess we will find out in her next appearance which I am convinced will happen soon.


Yeah I agree with you entirely. I highly doubt they will do Lylat Wars again after Zero's flop. That is an interesting way of looking at the entire situation with Krystal in that her chances are that much higher if she were to appear, I am not worried about her appearing in the next game, I am however worried that she may not show up before smash is announced, but for now I'd like to see her appear in her own franchise. If she were, however, to appear in Smash I would be elated and would get a switch the day of her announcement, but for now I am going to hold off as I don't really need a switch in the immediate future, just that I will likely get one soon.

Zero took all sorts of odd approaches to game design. Following Lylat Wars again so soon after the 3ds remake of Star Fox 64 was a jarringly odd decision. Walker mode was an interesting addition to the game that was an homage to Star Fox 2 that I was glad that they included. The gyrowing was silly, however, and it always made it so I didn't want to replay the entire game in a game where they encouraged us to replay it for high scores, that is another odd decision. It slows down an otherwise fast-paced game to a crawl. I also remember the smash push around when Star Fox Zero was announced, I also remember being very upset when we found out that it was a retelling of Lylat Wars and that she wouldn't be in it, because I also knew what that meant for smash and her inclusion as well.

Don't jinx it. They can always avoid whatever they want. Though I think logically it wouldn't make much sense if they didn't move on. Has nothing to do with Zero's reception either. It's just time. Heck, if Zero did well that would've been maybe even a bigger reason to move on. Zero doing poorly did nothing exactly but maybe force a hesitation out of Nintendo regarding Star Fox. However, Zero was a game designed specifically to work on a console using that consoles gimmicks at the tail end of it's pretty unsuccessful life, so it that regard Zero might get a pass.... "it was really the Wii U's fault!" But yeah, we'll see.

As for Star Fox needing more reps and Nintendo hearing our voices.... well, the ballot certainly said something and Wolf not returning had more than just Wolf fans miffed, but I wouldn't say we were heard more than anyone else honestly. Also honestly, the "need more reps" argument isn't one I think Nintendo really recognizes outside the influence of other characters showing up and being interesting. Sure, I feel Star Fox has more characters to choose from that should fit in Smash just as well as any others, Krystal in particular. But Krystal hasn't made that case herself recently in a canon appearance so the argument for her isn't as evident to Nintendo as it is to us. I mean, to be fair, it's not as evident to me as it could be. I'm hanging on to something from a decade ago with no recent reason to continue. I'd love Nintendo to help us make the case for her. As it is now, and after Zero, I'm not sure "Star Fox needs more reps" is really that great an argument. I want more reps and I feel it should have more... but the series itself it not exactly helping me out here recently.

Yeah, I remember all of that speculation. We'll never know if that's the way they handled it, of course, but it seems pretty likely, just going by the past past polls (such as the pre-Melee one, where a lot of low-placing characters were chosen, along with one who nobody voted for at all - the made-for-Smash amalgamation, Mr. Game & Watch, who's nothing like a real Game & Watch character, and was simply suggested in a fan-letter).


Yeah, though they did have to include the legal disclaimer "*Of realisable characters".


I must confess to having always found that odd - to the best of my knowledge, the Bayonetta games sold less in this region than anywhere else in the world. :confused: Oh well.


That's right, yeah.


I hope not. We really don't need more lame cheap one-button counter moves in Smash - the same re-skinned move already pollutes about a fifth of the roster as it is. :laugh:
Yeah, I forgot the "realizable character" comment was actually said and not simply implied.

Also, that's why I said "cape like", since the cape isn't a true counter move, heh. Doesn't react to an attack. It's a repositioning move like Mewtwo's side B in close quarters.
 
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Tortilla Noggin

Smash Obsessed
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
20,726
Also, that's why I said "cape like", since the cape isn't a true counter move, heh. Doesn't react to an attack. It's a repositioning move like Mewtwo's side B in close quarters.
Then that wouldn't be so bad! At least moves like that are balanced out by what happens if you, say, deflect a reflected projectile back at the person who reflected it. :laugh:
 

Gagnetar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
392
I'll have to read all this later, But I come bearing the fruit of a day or so of labor. It's the Krystal Alyx Replacement I said I'd do.
20171031001903_1.jpg Thanks to the glorious SFM model that Mr K calls terrible for some reason, Featuring jigglebones everywhere you'd expect, full facial animation, along with goodies that i've done, such as fixing the weird boot sole clipping into the floor.
20171031001908_1.jpg Krystal's staff over her EMP Tool because I don't like not having her staff with her.
20171031001946_1.jpg And the Gatling Gun over the Alyx Gun, featuring the AR2 muzzleflash, a model that I ripped myself, and the Assault Gatling Gun audio, also ripped by me. No I can't do anything about the pistol holdtype, the game calls for the pistol animation out of my reach.

https://mega.nz/#!VuJjibqZ!yY8thGtu4j16YXOvKbEHdeaEbHRophhkOqsiDa7c9Og

To install simply place the extracted folder (will require 7-Zip which is free and something everyone should have if they manage files) into your hl2, ep2 and/or episodic folder inside your steam folder
 
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