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Teach Me Something: Playing to Win

East

Crappy Imitation
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
763
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Doing Tricks in a Mansion Location: Tokyo, JP
Link to original post: [drupal=1004]Teach Me Something: Playing to Win[/drupal]



So I played melee, I play brawl. Played them for as long as I can remember. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago that I found smashboards and almost a year ago that I made an account. So then I started to play competitively.

I've learned a great deal of helpful, useful information here that has in turn made me better in ways I couldn't have imagined had I not joined, for which I am very grateful to the competitive smash scene as a whole.

There is one thing that I still can't seem to grasp. Of all the ideologies, thought processes, strategies the one that gives me the most trouble is probably the one that comes most naturally to people, "Play to Win." I've thought long and hard on this, and I think I've heard the views [as so eloquently flamed by members to other people who don't know or are too naive in that subject] but there are just a few things that I can't seem to wrap my head around.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Playing to Win means to do whatever in your power [as long as allowed by rules set forth in tournament, and laws set by the government] to win because frankly, winning is fun. Anything else aside, as long as I'm winning, I'm happy. There's my first problem. Is there ever a point to where Playing to Win "by any means necessary" is taking it a little too far. For example a while back I was looking on the R.O.B. boards and I came across a guide put together by Overswarm. I'm sure Overswarm is a great person, and by no means am I passing judgment on his character, personality, morals, or ethics as I continue, but rather using this as an example of the aforementioned mentality as a whole. Detailed in the guide is a section called "Soulcrushing". In a nutshell, it details all the psychological aspects of "destroying [an opponents] drive to play." Overswarm even says himself that "everything I've listed under this topic is wrong. However, it is also useful. And fun. Lots and lots of fun."

That's where I have to come to a halt and challenge my own morals. Playing to Win means to do anything in my power to defeat my opponent, but I can't go that far. I refuse to sacrifice the way I treat other people [because everyone deserves to be treated like a human being]in order to win. Is this the wrong kind of thinking for the smash boards community?

Moving on, I main Sheik. In case you don't know, Sheik is about as close to the top of the tier list as Mercury is to Uranus. I understand that I shouldn't get too hung up on the tier list because that list only has worth if assuming all other things equal, the two competitors facing each other are at equal levels of skill and play. I have noticed a trend that most if not all of the players of higher caliber use "Top Tier" characters when they play. Sure this doesn't seem like a problem when you have a swirling mass of people under them who do play other characters. From the big picture with so many people playing all of these different characters there is a great deal of diversity, however when you cut off the bottom of the iceberg that no one pays attention to, all you are left with are the elite players who all use 1 or 2 different characters, often those dubbed "top tier" Doesn't this crowding of 1 or 2 characters only serve to bring the continuation of the metagame to a screeching halt, stagnating it?

Also, please note that while reading this, I am not attempting to insight a "ban metaknight" idea, but rather force the reader to look up at the higher levels of play.

I digress, this overcentralization of a few characters only serves to increase their metagame exponentially, while the others fester in a pool of abandonment. With the other characters abandoned, doesn't it prevent the metagame from advancing as a whole. Sure a few characters have a metagame, but if no one is using the others doesn't that "close the book" for anything else about the others being discovered, thus advancing their metagame. This with many characters advances the metagame as a whole.

There is my second problem. Does playing to win mean forgoing unknown possibilities of the future for victory in the present?

This is getting pretty long, so I think I'll stop here. At this point I'm very interested in someone perhaps explaining the whole "playing to win" philosophy better to me. What I wrote above is not an attack on competition theology, but rather questioning it to understand and perhaps get a better grasp of it. There's always been this idea in my mind of the play to win mentality as something that is degenerate.

I've always thought that if a person's reason for playing was to purely to win, then they should perhaps play their younger cousins or maybe someone they knew they were better against. If they were intent on making money, then they should seek other, faster ways of doing so. [I'm fairly certain the stock market is such a way]. I understand that what was just said can be take as harsh sarcasm, but i'm being completely sincere. Again I am not trying to attack the playing to win philosophy, I simply want to get a better understanding of it so that I might one day accept it, instead of tolerate it.

So without further ado, "Teach Me Something."
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
There is my second problem. Does playing to win mean forgoing unknown possibilities of the future for victory in the present?
I haven't read this yet, but this line stands out to me because I believe that is what Playing to Win is. Forgoing the possibility that other options may represent untapped potential to be the best options, to choose what is widely accepted as the best options within the current metagame.

But I also believe that it also applies to the idea that people stick to their mains because they can play them better than say MK or Snake. I have a better rate of success with Diddy, but that may be because I have not practiced MK or Snake to any great degree.

Taking that into account, I can play to win with Diddy at this very moment, rather than Snake or MK.

If there's something to be taught, it's that you should take the 'Play to Win' ideology and suit it to yourself.
 

MarKO X

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
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Okay, here's the deal...

1st and foremost, you do what's true to your heart. You wanna play to win and dominate everybody? You pick MetaKnight and be a total *******. You wanna play for fun and just get some lols? Pick Falcon and spam Falcon Punches. But the key is to do what you want to do.

2nd, when it comes to playing to win... the only boundaries are called rules. If its allowed, do it. If your opponent cant counter your grabs, your fair, you dair, your gimping, then by all means, abuse it until they learn. Simple as that. A tourney is not time to fool around and **** off, a tourney is a time to win. Win teh big bucks. If you gotta abuse an exploit, be it your opponent's flaw or a flaw in the game design, do it... because you wanna win. It's not about how you play the game, it's about whether you win or lose. For real.

I'm sure I haven't captured the complete essense of "Play to Win," but it really is an excellent mentality to have not just in gaming, but in life. I understand your conphlict with playing to win and being true to your heart, but it's just a matter of maintaining that play to win mentality on a consistent basis until you find your balance. every so often, that balance may or may not get tipped... but you should find that balance.
 

ptown

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
700
here's one way to think about this.

you could split up the way you play into two... ways:

1) e.g. some times, you play with your friends, trying out new tactics/techniques to situations and mentally (or physically, if you're that into it) take note of the results. these times, you're "playing to learn". though really, if you want to "get good" you should always be open to learn while you play. you may find something interesting/useful that no one has thought of.

e.g. since you use sheik, you could explore more into the needles: how can you use them in new ways? in what ways are they effective?

2) some times, you play and you decide it's time to "play to win". these times, you apply what you've learned with what you already know and try to execute them in "real matches". it will be a combination of your new level of knowledge, and as usual a test of your execution and i don't know... mental fortitude.
 

Bandit_Kieth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
159
Location
Western Aussie
i always play to win, no matter what game it happens to be, no matter who the opponent is.
my friend says that he's hardly trying most of the time.. while i put all of my effort into each and every single game.

this probably isnt "Teaching" you anything.. im just sharing my way of things

failure is an option, i just ignore it
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
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Miamisburg, OH
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Fromundaman
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Playing to win is exactly what it sounds like: Doing whatever you have to to win. There is no real 'play to win' strategy however. It really just depends on what works for you.


Using your example for the soulcrushing in OS' guide, yes, it is an effective technique, for if your opponent plays like ****, you're more likely to win. However, not everyone can really do this. For example, I couldn't intentionally 'soulcrush' someone because if they play like ****, the match gets more intense, and I start to lose focus, which in turn makes me play worse. So in my case, playing to win would include NOT destroying the opponent's drive.


Next, onto the tier list character thingy:

Yeah, the better characters' metagame advances moe quickly than the others', since more players play them, and yes they are more effective than the lower tiers in general. However, in this game moreso than some, the game is based on matchups, and at times, some lower tiers are better than the top tiers for specific matchups. For this reason, people tend to play multiple characters.
MK is a prime example. Sure, Metaknight does not have a single 'bad' matchup, but that doesn't make him a god against all other characters. Certain characters like Kirby, Snake, Peach and Yoshi have decent matchups against him, and as such, the MK player *may* want to pick a secondary to be able to absolutely obliterate those characters.

For this reason, while the metagame obviously improves faster for most of the higher tier characters, it would be wrong to assume it stagnates for other characters.

Right... I'm kind of just rambling now, so I'm going to stop here.
 
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