TAS request service

[Indefa]

I'm going to do Firo's Ness vs Kirby UpTilt and then I'm going to take a break for a while. I've done 15 requests in total so far.

Service is now closed as of today. Thank you for the requests.

Feel free to post more requests/ideas, just don't expect them to be done anytime soon.

EDIT: Ok done:

Spoiler

Think it's most practical to not talk about it since it's so complicated. Here's an excel document if you want to see the frame breakdowns in a nice visual way:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/arrha4w9ipj17fs/Ness vs Kirby UpTilt.xlsx?dl=0

I recommend downloading it, not viewing it online, cuz then you can see the numbers in the columns and rows (I've made them match the frame counts).

Here's the pics for the range distance you'll need to be for each:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p5kjg47gj6cmhr/bair.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifxxcdm51ach5mr/dash attack.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wxv09x8vs376kw8/dash grab.png?dl=0

Conclusions:
- All 3 can theoretically work
- In my testing experience, I would say dash grab is most practical, then dash-a, then bair (if we're talking clean hits, I mean. If you like clanking and trading then they're all ok I guess lol).

Dropbox links seem to be broken

 

[B Link]

Dropbox links seem to be broken

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zh0f9yimdjinw4b/Ness vs Kirby UpTilt.xlsx?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6zwbxsvc9f67kwk/bair.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/89uxxiyow8gtpg4/dash attack.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gr0meq8pugwrwla/dash grab.png?dl=0

Weird, tell me if it goes down again

 

[The Star King]

I got permission from B Link to ask more stuff.

Is Kirby rock -> cancel on first frame it hits -> aerial true on shield?

Is Pika upsmash -> jab grab true on shield? (I guess probably)

Is Pika jabgrab on Yoshi parry inescapable in any way? (shield jump, roll)

With frame perfect mashing can DK even get an fthrow? How about jump fthrow?

 

[B Link]

I got permission from B Link to ask more stuff.

Is Kirby rock -> cancel on first frame it hits -> aerial true on shield?

Is Pika upsmash -> jab grab true on shield? (I guess probably)

Is Pika jabgrab on Yoshi parry inescapable in any way? (shield jump, roll)

With frame perfect mashing can DK even get an fthrow? How about jump fthrow?

Spoiler

1. Yes it is, but only for nair. Done this way, there's a 2 frame window (if a character tries to escape on the same frame the nair hitbox comes out, nair wins).
2. Yes, and there's even a 3 frame window after the upsmash for you to get your jab out.
3.
Short answer: No for green parry + roll, yes for blue parry (shield jump; 1 frame window)

Long Answer:

Green Parry
- Green Parry: The first 3 frames of Yoshi's shield where Yoshi is green; the more commonly known parry

Notes:
- Green Parry clanks with the jab, causing 5 frames of attacker hitstun
- Yoshi can roll at any point during the 3 frames of Green Parry.
- Supposing Yoshi gets hit as early as possible (Green Parry Frame 1), Pikachu will still not reach Yoshi in time with the grab of a perfect jab grab IF Yoshi rolls as early as possible
- Therefore, perfectly speaking, it's never inescapable (i.e. it's always escapable with perfect input by Yoshi)
- Didn't test for the escape frame window (too lazy sorry, lol)

Blue Parry
- Some people consider the shield jump a parry. I'll just call this "Blue Parry".
- Blue Parry/shield jump = 2 frames

Notes:
- Since this doesn't "hit" Yoshi, there's no attacker hitstun, unlike Green Parry
- Pikachu's jab can be cancelled by grab even at frame 2 (well, you can cancel it on frame 1, but there won't be a jab hitbox, lol)*
- Because there's no hitstun, Pikachu can start the grab animation immediately (hitbox comes out in 6 frames)
- If Pikachu jabs Yoshi on the Blue Parry Frame 1, perfectly cancels his jab, and Yoshi shield jumps, Yoshi will be pretty low, and in vulnerable frames. So Pikachu would grab Yoshi. Yoshi's only been in the (actual) air for 1 frame, so he can't do anything to counter it yet.
- On the other hand, if Pikachu jabs on Blue Parry Frame 2, Yoshi will be just slightly high enough such that a perfectly cancelled grab will not hit.

4.

I used Kirby for the experiment.

Short answer: Kirby has a 10 frame window to escape (with perfect mashing or w/e). So supposing he does it asap, he can always escape. I only tested fthrow on ground (jump fthrow would just add frames no?)

Long answer:

Kirby's "perfect mashing" can take as little as 7 frames (with the alternate direction + a/b method).

This is not the same as the "escape frame window", which is the window at which you can START mashing out, and still escape. The escape frame window is 10 frames long.

Notes:
- Kirby can start escaping one frame before Kirby gets "locked" on DK's head (before that frame it won't register)
- DK can input throw on this same frame or later (before that frame it won't register)
- It takes 18 frames from when DK presses throw to when Kirby gets released
- So Kirby, doing the 7 frame escape, can even escape on frame 10 of that sequence (in other words, he can escape from frames 1-10 of the fthrow animation)
- Why not frame 11? Because if Kirby does his last escape input at the same frame of DK's "letting go" animation, the letting go animation will win (priority: fthrow > escape)

So basically it's like:
DK grabs Kirby
DK does animation to place Kirby on head
1 frame before Kirby "lands" on DK's head, Kirby can start escaping, and DK can initiate throw
It takes 18 frames for Kirby to be "thrown out" of DK's hands, if DK actually gets the throw off
If Kirby does his 7 frame perfect mashing asap, he'd have done it 10 frames earlier than necessary
In other words, Kirby could have done that 7 frame perfect mashing 10 frames later, and still escape

It's a bit confusing I know lol

---

*Also discovered today that some frame information on framedisplay.onlinessb.com is wrong jajaja (for the purposes of this post, note that Pikachu's jab hitbox actually comes out in 2 frames, not 3 like the website shows)

---

Hope this helps. Btw if anything needs clarification let me know.

Also, I didn't see hectohertz's post. Mayyybe I'll do it later

 

[The Star King]

Thank you so much for the detailed answer.

However when I mentioned shield jump I meant parry the jab -> shield jump the grab. From what I understand shield jump is invincible frame 1 you initiate the jump. So if Yoshi can roll out of the grab after parrying the jab, could he not also shield jump the grab?

Damn DK sucks. How many frames does jumping in fthrow carry take?

 

[caneut]

I almost got this with kirby last night. Uair on side plat to run off suck. Is it true combo?

 

[Shears]

Can pika upb escape jab grab.

Jab
pika upb
grab (misses)

 

[T Brett]

aerials with R:
a last minute z-cancelled falcon bair (for instance) is easy with A then Z, easy with R then R, but hard with R then Z. same timing on all.
is there a reason why R aerials have trouble fitting the Z-cancel input in?
worth a test maybe

 

[The Star King]

Because R works as Z+A, you can't Z-cancel with Z if you are holding R (since you are already holding "Z"). No need for TAS for that one.

 

[caneut]

does dk uair give him horizontal speed? no pls

also pls kirby suck combo tas blink HELP ME PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! pls

 

[B Link]

Sorry my adapter broke and I don't like using KB. Once I get a new one (probably this week) I'll start working on these again.

 

[B Link]

The adapter came early even though I ordered the slowest shipping method, lol.

...

I'm gonna have to brainstorm ideas for this one. Since I don't really know what method to use I can't do this one yet.

...

The grab comes after the shield jump invincible frame, but anyway Pikachu can't jab grab regardless. Yoshi, though in vulnerable frames, is too far up for Pikachu to grab him.

Jumping in the jump throw takes 7 frames. But since DK can buffer the throw on Frame 6, jump throw only takes 6 frames longer than standing throw.

For reference, standing throw takes 39 frames done as early as possible, whereas jump throw takes 45.

...

Could you tell me which character you tried this on? It doesn't work on Pikachu, for example.

I'll check the horizontal speed later, I have to use Madao's cheat table for this.

...

Nope. Too much hitstun.

 

[Shears]

The adapter came early even though I ordered the slowest shipping method, lol.



I'm gonna have to brainstorm ideas for this one. Since I don't really know what method to use I can't do this one yet.



The grab comes after the shield jump invincible frame, but anyway Pikachu can't jab grab regardless. Yoshi, though in vulnerable frames, is too far up for Pikachu to grab him.

Jumping in the jump throw takes 7 frames. But since DK can buffer the throw on Frame 6, jump throw only takes 6 frames longer than standing throw.

For reference, standing throw takes 39 frames done as early as possible, whereas jump throw takes 45.



Could you tell me which character you tried this on? It doesn't work on Pikachu, for example.

I'll check the horizontal speed later, I have to use Madao's cheat table for this.



Nope. Too much hitstun.

This was a while ago but someone (probably star king) tried arguing with me that pika is unjabgrabable. They claimed that if another pika jabbed one pika, that one pika could upb escape before the grab.

 

[hectohertz]

This was a while ago but someone (probably star king) tried arguing with me that pika is unjabgrabable. They claimed that if another pika jabbed one pika, that one pika could upb escape before the grab.

i've heard firo say that jabgrab isnt real in general if you have really good DI

 

[Shears]

i've heard firo say that jabgrab isnt real in general if you have really good DI

Yeah probably, but for humans, assuming no DI, I don't think jabgrab is escapable. In training mode, that cpu isn't getting out of jabgrab.

 

[The Star King]

This was a while ago but someone (probably star king) tried arguing with me that pika is unjabgrabable. They claimed that if another pika jabbed one pika, that one pika could upb escape before the grab.

first of all it was either cobr or fireblaster (cobr says he thinks fireblaster told him about this), and second of all he says it was about on shield or ccing (isn't sure) so you asked b link the wrong thing

okay might as well ask something:

can you pika upb out of pika jab grab on shield

can you pika upb out of pika jab grab with a 0% crouch cancel

can you break shields with fully stale yoshi nairs and if so how many frames of leniency do you have

do you have to do a frame perfect short hop low laser to hit standing kirby/pika on the same height? 2 frames maybe?

 

[B Link]

Great questions. I'm gonna do them after GOML.

 

[The Star King]

one more thing

if falcon ftilt clanks with kirby utilt is there enough lag for falcon to have a guaranteed dash grab? what about fox dtilt vs kirby utilt?

(I tried to edit my last post and accidentally "replied" instead which caused a new post, that's how you know I'm Smashboards rusty

 

[B Link]

1. no
2, yes (cool)
3. yes
- Character in shield is stunned for 28 frames with a maximally stale nair
- Yoshi can move immediately after the 8 frames of attacker hitstun (Is this already known? That there's no landing lag after a djc nair on shield?)
- Fastest DJC nair takes 12 frames
- 12 + 8 = 20
- Thus, there's 8 frames of leniency

4.

Pikachu
- no left/right input sh laser = 2 frames (doing it later hits Pikachu slightly lower)
- short hop with late left/right input sh laser = 1 frame
- low short hop = can't hit pikachu

Kirby (big/small)
- no left/right input sh laser = 1 frame (**only during certain portions of Kirby's standing animation lol, i.e. when he's at his highest. In other words, even if you do it frame perfectly, if Kirby is in low animation it'll miss, big or small lol)
- can't hit otherwise

5. no to both

 

[Grahamaglam]

Does doing a fair right after a jump as kirby really give you more horizontal distance when recovering? How much of a difference is it, if at all? I tried it myself and saw some differences but wanted someone to TAS it to be sure since there are a lot of things that could have caused it.

 

[B Link]

Does doing a fair right after a jump as kirby really give you more horizontal distance when recovering? How much of a difference is it, if at all? I tried it myself and saw some differences but wanted someone to TAS it to be sure since there are a lot of things that could have caused it.

Yes it does. I actually didn't need to TAS this one cuz I found a way to show proof without tools. Go to the top of Hyrule's green tent. Face the left, and roll backwards into the right ledge. Now try and jump fair twice toward the top platform on Hyrule. It should get you there. Now try and just jump and 2nd jump to make it. I couldn't make it personally, by just about a Kirby's hurtbox distance-wise. So I'd assume it's about 1 Kirby character per two fairs' distance. That could add up a lot if you're recovering from far away lol, and I believe Kirby has 6 jumps.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Yes it does. I actually didn't need to TAS this one cuz I found a way to show proof without tools. Go to the top of Hyrule's green tent. Face the left, and roll backwards into the right ledge. Now try and jump fair twice toward the top platform on Hyrule. It should get you there. Now try and just jump and 2nd jump to make it. I couldn't make it personally, by just about a Kirby's hurtbox distance-wise. So I'd assume it's about 1 Kirby character per two fairs' distance. That could add up a lot if you're recovering from far away lol, and I believe Kirby has 6 jumps.

I actually did this same exact test when I posted before LMAO. I just wanted to make sure because Near didn't believe me. I did it with a metronome so I wouldn't change the jump timing by accident.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

This probably doesn't require TAS, but I'll post it anyways.

I've noticed (at least in the VC version) that if two players pick Jigglypuff using certain controller ports depending on stage and hold shield down until Jiggly gets KO'd, the game may crash. Can you look into this?

More info here: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-vc-version-seems-to-crash-if-you-do-this.441995/

 

[caneut]

Solution: NO ONE CARES ABOUT VC

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

Solution: NO ONE CARES ABOUT VC

Says who?

 

[Zantetsu]

The SSB64 scene usually dismisses the VC version because it has frame skipping, along with other issues.

But I did test it out on console and can confirm it crashes on console too.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

The SSB64 scene usually dismisses the VC version because it has frame skipping, along with other issues.

But I did test it out on console and can confirm it crashes on console too.

Wouldn'5 it be easier to use VC if players want to change controller ports, espevially for crew battles?

 

[Zantetsu]

How is it easier to change controller ports on VC than on an N64? Even if that were a thing, the trade offs are still not worth it to make VC the standard. Most players use N64 controllers, and there are GCN -> N64 controller adapters for those who prefer the GCN controller, so there's really no reason to use the VC version at all.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

How is it easier to change controller ports on VC than on an N64? Even if that were a thing, the trade offs are still not worth it to make VC the standard. Most players use N64 controllers, and there are GCN -> N64 controller adapters for those who prefer the GCN controller, so there's really no reason to use the VC version at all.

Wouldn't the controls on the Gamecube controller be mapped to N64 style?

Where L is taunt, R is grab and Z is shield?

 

[Zantetsu]

The adapter allows you to map the buttons however you would like.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

The SSB64 scene usually dismisses the VC version because it has frame skipping, along with other issues.

But I did test it out on console and can confirm it crashes on console too.

What port/stage combinations have you tried?

 

[caneut]

What port/stage combinations have you tried?

THERE IS FRAME SKIPPING IT IS LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

THERE IS FRAME SKIPPING IT IS LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE

He said it crashes on N64 hardware too

My new thread is here: https://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-crash-the-game.442465/

 

[Zantetsu]

I only tested Dreamland, because frankly, I really don't care about the other stages since they're not tournament legal and I never play them. Nice find, but I don't think it's a very important bug that requires additional testing as it's very unlikely to happen in a tournament setting.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

Im sure Peach's Castle and Kongo Jungle are tournament legal too

I don't think two Jigglys will ever break their shield at the same time in a tournament, but it's still worth noting

 

[Grahamaglam]

Those stages haven't been legal for almost 3 years.

 

[B Link]

Im sure Peach's Castle and Kongo Jungle are tournament legal too

I don't think two Jigglys will ever break their shield at the same time in a tournament, but it's still worth noting

That's a cool find imo. I wonder why that happens

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

That's a cool find imo. I wonder why that happens

Yeah I don't know why that only happens with certain ports.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

Can you TAS this scenario and see what happens?

https://smashboards.com/threads/if-...-a-life-from-a-third-at-the-same-time.442642/