t!mmy's List of Necessary Kirby Changes

[t!MmY]

I know Sakurai is basically the "father" of Kirby, and that he knows what he's doing. Nevertheless, here are a list of changes I'd really like to see the day Brawl launches.

#1 Moderated Speed
Kirby can't keep up in speed, attacks, lag, and practically in every regard to any good character. To keep Kirby competitive, fix the big gap in speed between characters in mind. (as far as I know of Brawl, this problem is already being addressed).

#2 Kirby Hats
Give us the Kirby hats from his games! Mario, Yoshi, and Pikachu hats are cute, but instead of making a new hat for every character for every game and trying to balance out those attacks, just give him the expected list of Hats and you'll be set from Brawl and forever after.

#3 Fix Bad Attacks
I don't care if an attack isn't uber, godly, or even especially spammy. What it needs is a reliable use. Kirby has too many attacks that just aren't useful in any practical sense. Many people would point at Stone, Hammer, and even the Final Cutter as the most obvious culprits, but instead of buffing these attacks they should be changed to something completely different and those attacks should be integrated into Stone, Hammer, and Cutter hats.

#4 Swallow, Copy, & Star Shot
Copying is Kirby's shtick, his singular trait, the attack he should be best known for. Making Swallow and Copy a reliable and useful attack would give players reason to use it. The main problem with it now is the terrible startup and horrible lag, all for an attack that does 8% damage, sets up the opponent to hit Kirby, and really doesn't give him any useful ability most of the time.

I realize that if Swallow had a great reach, grab priority, and little lag, it could be spammed and pretty annoying to the opponents. First of all, this really isn't such a bad thing as it would give Kirby at least one abusable attack. However, with the inclusion of "Swallowcide", this becomes more important to balance. The obvious thing to do is to improve Copy, and make Swallowcides harder. It's easy to do this: make it so opponents can break out very quickly after getting Swallowed, but make Copying fast and easy to do. If you're going to make Swallow like a grab, give it grab-like lag and range.

Star Shot is another shtick of Kirby, but what use is it when grabbing is easier and deals about the same damage? Well, the obvious thing to do is to improve Star Shot so it's more on par with Kirby's Throws. The amount of damage should be slightly higher, say 14% to 18% based on weight instead of, what, 10% to 18%? And pick up the speed on that thing, it seems to take forever to grab someone with Swallow and spit them out at a nearby opponent.

And, finally, give it some KO power. If Kirby's U-throw can kill someone approximately 200%, surely Star Shot could be used for KO potential. Just make "breaking out" of the star harder the higher percent the opponent has so that if they can't break out before being sent off-screen they get KO'd.

#5 Combos
The fun of this game is stringing attacks together and pummeling your opponent(s). Please give Kirby some combos. Kthnx.

#6 Hat Examples
Beam
Standard - Laser (like Fox's)
Side - Cycle Beam
Down - Beam Whip
Up - Beam whip (tether recovery like Ivysaur's)

Sword
Standard - Non-Stop Cutter Attack
Side - Cutter Boomarang
Down - High Speed Cutter Drop
Up - Final Cutter

Fire
Standard - Fire Blow
Side - Burning Attack
Down - Fireball Roll
Up - Fireball Spin

Fighter
Standard - Energy Ball
Side - Spin Kick
Down - Sweep Kick
Up - Rising Break

Hammer
Standard - Hammer Nail
Side - Hammer Swing
Down - Hammer Flip
Up - Giant Swing

Ice
Standard - Freezer Breath
Side - Freezer Blizzard
Down - Ice Kick
Up - Freezer Sprinkle

Parasol
Standard - Parasol Shield
Side - Parasol Drill
Down - Parasol Dive
Up - Parasol Chute

No Good
Gives no Hat

Bowser - Fire
Charizard - Fire
Diddy Kong - Fighter
Donkey Kong - Fighter
Fox - Beam (Laser)
Ice Climbers - Ice
Ike - Sword
Ivysaur - Fighter
King Dedede - Hammer
Kirby - No Good
Link - Sword
Lucas - Fighter (Yo-yo)
Mario - Fighter
Meta Knight - Sword
Peach - Parasol
Pikachu - Beam (Spark)
Pit - Sword (Cupid)
Samus - Beam
Snake - Fighter
Sonic - Fighter (Wheel)
Squirtle - Fighter (Bubble)
Wario - Fighter
Yoshi - No Good
Zelda - Fighter (Mirror)
Shiek - Fighter (Ninja)
Zero Suit Samus - Beam

The Hats in parentheses are additional hats they could add specifically for those characters.

 

[shinzou]

This would be good but, i don't think that the people would add all these different kirby "modes" for just one character. I agree that the swallow and spit should be more useful though.

 

[Jededi4h]

#2 Kirby Hats
Give us the Kirby hats from his games! Mario, Yoshi, and Pikachu hats are cute, but instead of making a new hat for every character for every game and trying to balance out those attacks, just give him the expected list of Hats and you'll be set from Brawl and forever after.

What are you talking why would they remove one of Kirby's most unique features. Half the point of Kirby is that I'm copying my enemies specific abilities, and then use them to bring the pain!

Besides it's not necessarily any easier to balance out generic hats for this game. So if you're going through that effort anyway, why not make them more based on the character swallowed?

 

[Raptorbite]

I do agree that Kirby's B-moves need to be looked at (basically pointless at times) but to be honest with you I like his hats too much for them to just do away with character-specific cats all-together.

 

[RegalBuster]

Yeah i'd hate if Kirby didn't get fire balls when he sucked up Mario or the Bow for link, etc.

 

[Hot Kaarl]

I have to disagree with you guys. As someone who played Kirby games throughout his childhood, and even as someone who likes to play Kirby in melee, I really like T!mmy's hat idea. I think seeing Kirby's hats from his previous games would provide some nice nostalgia for his character that we currently only see a small amount of (IE: Final Cutter, Hammer, etc). After all, it's not like Kirby's abilities in his previous games vary depending on which enemy he sucked up. He takes the element, or rather the core ability. I think that's what T!mmy's saying. While I like the idea though, I seriously doubt it'll happen.

 

[iron blade]

i like all the ideas except for the hats. i think kirby should keep his original way of copying a character. his b moves really need to change, and his smash attacks need more power.

 

[Dynamism]

#3 Fix Bad Attacks

For Sure the #1 problem

When playing as a Marth, every single attack has its use. There isn't an attack that can't be used in battle for a reason. All tilts, smashes, aerials, specials. His edge moves, throws, EVERYTHING has a good use. Many characters are like this but Kirby isn't one of them.

His Nair is laggy and has almost no range. It's better to use a dair cause it's faster even if it doesn't cover in front of him, a uair cause it has good knockback for the same lag or a fair for priority even when it doesn't do much % or KB. If his Nair was more instant or had more priority (which may be fixed by the looks of it) then it will be worth using at its moments. His smashes and tilts are fairly functional and his throws can be used for several reasons.

Then there is the specials.

His stone is useless. I got a KO with it a couple times, but they are always those kills where you laugh after. "OMG I thought the stone was extinct! haha." type of thing. This move is slow to start, slow and weak to fall and slow to recover from. One of the most useless and punishable attacks ever. Bring it back the 64 strength and increase the speed it falls.at. If they make it too good then at least the end lag doesn't make it broken.

His hammer was pretty bad too. I'm not sure if it's better now but in melee, if the hammer didn't change your momentum in the air, that attack would've been AMAZING!!!!! We'll see how this new function works out though, maybe it's faster or stronger.

Final Cutter needs more power, less suck. That thing swings with the force of a jab. Pathetic. If it has the spiking power and projectile increase like ssb64 Kirby, then it could be very functional again. As of now it's like a ****ty recovery or slow projectile and that's it.

The Copy ability should be spammy and almost border line broken. It is Kirby. But the hats should stay the way they are. Copying elements wouldn't be especially apealing in smash and the copying of character moves is an awesome feature. It just has to be usefull.

Falco Hats make Kirby shoot the lasers but he shoots them faster. If they could have the copied ability increase in power, speed or function when Kirby copied it then it would be fairly handy. Imagine if Kirby copied Falcon Punch but it came off in half the time (or just with Falcons priority). Or if he copied Roys Sheild Breaker but he had Roys sword priority instead of having a miniture dinky sword. Or the Donkey Puch with DK range.

Any improvement to his copied ability would make his copying worth doing. And his suction better. Either faster or more range.

 

[UsernameLink]

Ive played kirby games... but i just love his brawl hats that steal the looks from other characters, I wouldnt change them

 

[t!MmY]

The whole idea of Smash is taking a character from a game and putting them in a "What if so-and-so fought so-and-so?". I was disappointed when I found out I would never see Beam, Spark, Fighter, etc hats ever in a match.

BTW, the arguement "I disagree because I like it the other way" is a poor man's debate.

 

[shinzou]

it's pointless anyway.... cause with the introduction of kirby's DeDeDe hat is pretty much a give away that he's sticking to copying the character specific looks.

 

[skellitorman]

Well maybe he can suck up projectiles or items for the ORIGINAL kirby hats.

 

[t!MmY]

it's pointless anyway.... cause with the introduction of kirby's DeDeDe hat is pretty much a give away that he's sticking to copying the character specific looks.

What's pointless? And in what way? This is a discussion forum, and we're discussing. Lolz.

 

[Jededi4h]

The whole idea of Smash is taking a character from a game and putting them in a "What if so-and-so fought so-and-so?". I was disappointed when I found out I would never see Beam, Spark, Fighter, etc hats ever in a match.

BTW, the arguement "I disagree because I like it the other way" is a poor man's debate.

I guess that I look at it that Kirby always has a different set of powers in each of his games, and this is the set for this game.

That being said I understand how you could miss the classic hats. I'm actually holding out hope that they will be added as well. We've seen the addition of a number of generic Kirby enemies in this game, two of which actually gave Kirby abilities.

Now I ask you: Does anyone believe that Sakurai would add Waddle Doo to the game and not have him give Kirby the Beam ability if eaten?

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Yeah, I've mentioned in a different thread before that I'm going to be soooo weirded out if Kirby sucks up Waddle Doo and does not get a Beam ability... I expect this, but I'm still going to be weirded out...

I do expect Kirby to be a great character again this time around.

We've seen him using his new horizontal aerial hammer against Petey Piranha and it looks like it's improved a lot. His new dash attack, based on the Yo-Yo Ability from KSS, seems a lot better than the fireball as well.
Also, am I really the only one who noticed the two extra Final Cutter hits when he used it up-close against an enemy in that Subspace Emissary movie clip where he is paired with Peach and blasted off the Halberd?

From what I could make out of it, it seems his jumping has improved as well making him much more mobile in the air, as he should be. Sakurai wanted to focus more on aerial combat anyway, and if there's one character who should have a godly airgame, it should be Kirby.

And personally, I LOVE the classic hats idea.
However... We most likely won't be seeing any of that...

They wouldn't have to make a new hat for every single character and only make up a few extra B moves, the rest of Kirby's moveset would remain exactly the same.

I mean, if they can have Zelda transform into Sheik, and if they can have PT be three different Pokémon in one character, then they could easily make a character that always has the same character model and standard moves, just with different B moves and different hat on his head.

I personally might've wanted to throw in a bomb ability for Samus and Snake though...

Anyway, and yes, give Kirby some actual combos... It'd be much appreciated.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

You should be able to suck projectiles and items. Though they wouldn't do anything if you swallow them, you could fire them back as a counter.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Yeah good point, PrettyGoodYear.

For example, we know DeDeDe has his signature high jump where lands hard on the ground and two stars appear. Kirby SHOULD be able to suck up those stars! Again something I'll be weirded out by if he can't do this.

And yeah, just about every other projectile (maybe with a "few" exceptions)

EDIT: Yay! 200th Post! And I made it in a Kirby thread! <(^-^)>

 

[ripman3]

You should be able to suck projectiles and items. Though they wouldn't do anything if you swallow them, you could fire them back as a counter.

I've been thinking almost the same, but i think he should be able to be a less powerful crash kirby if he swallows bomb-ombs (links bombs wouldn't do this). He could explode with a small radius around him the next time you use your neutral B.

He shouldn't be able to suck in samus's fully charged charged laser, or any other very large "lasery" attacks that aren't like bombs or exploding capsules.

 

[Kirbynator23]

Wow, I'd love it but it will never happen. Changing all of his wonderful special moves is terrible. He is awsome enough and that is way too much emphysis on this little puffball, face it, this is just a fantasy.

 

[iron blade]

they definitely need to add more power to his attacks, that's for sure. melee kirby was a pansy.

 

[goodkid]

I really think Kirby should able to copy whole B movesets. Meaning if Kirby copies fox he will get the Laser, Firefox, Shine, and Illusion. That would really make Kirby useful. Or if that doesn't happen, at least add the side B to copy move. I hope Sakurai does that because in the kirby games you were able to use more than one move from the copied power.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

All Kirby really needs is speed. I don't usually use the copy ability so it wouldn't really matter for me. If the swallowing speed were to drastically speed up like Bowser's forward B then I would use it.

I want it both ways, so I can't decide.

 

[t!MmY]

One thing I'd like to see, if he doesn't get his Kirby Hats, is to see more of his Hats as attacks. Seeing Vulcan Jab as his multi-jab was pretty cool, so if they made most or all of his attacks Hat-related it would be much better, especially if he wore that Hat during the animation.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

I really think Kirby should able to copy whole B movesets. Meaning if Kirby copies fox he will get the Laser, Firefox, Shine, and Illusion. That would really make Kirby useful. Or if that doesn't happen, at least add the side B to copy move. I hope Sakurai does that because in the kirby games you were able to use more than one move from the copied power.

I too hope Kirby's copying ability is expanded.

What I really want is a better Kirby in general. Kirby is bottom tier in SSBM, so he can only go up in SSBB (or so I hope).

 

[t!MmY]

There's nothing bad with Kirby... Everyone else is just too good. Ha ha.

But seriously, how could they not see how bad the Stone was ... even before playtesting it?

 

[Lord Viper]

There's nothing bad with Kirby... Everyone else is just too good. Ha ha.

But seriously, how could they not see how bad the Stone was ... even before playtesting it?

Kirby is the greatest. They made him harder to master in Melee for no reason. But the Stone Kriby in that game was slow and it didn't defend a lot. At least make it impervious to grabs like his games.

 

[iron blade]

when kirby does his stone attack and lands on the ground, when he comes out of it he should do a short range stone-spray attack so he isn't so ridiculously vulnerable.

 

[Chasesin]

What they need to do to make kirby better is give him a knockback move
the only knockbacks he has is abilities and spamming c stick

 

[t!MmY]

What is a 'knockback' move? I'd assume it's a powerful attack with KO oomph, but then you mentioned spamming the c-stick, so it's not that since his Smash Attacks are anything but powerful.

 

[Kirbynator23]

What is a 'knockback' move? I'd assume it's a powerful attack with KO oomph, but then you mentioned spamming the c-stick, so it's not that since his Smash Attacks are anything but powerful.

I've been wonderin' the same thing.

 

[Chasesin]

a move that knocks the opponent away from you

ex: links b up

 

[skellitorman]

His Upsmash (sweet spot obviously), Upair, and ground hammer(sweet spot) were his only moves with significant knockback. To be honest in my opinion Kirby doesn't need any more power in his moves at all. What he needs is actual speed in his attacks and not stupid "hit boxes"(upsmash, hammer, Up B) on his moves. Kirby is good with cheap KOs and I still get normal KOs here and there with back air or ground hammer or upsmash, or up air here and there, and even f air so honestly power is not an issue here.

And btw Kirby is a tiny little (8 inch tall) pink balloon, so why should he be heavier? (All those people who want him with more weight make no sense) What he needs is more air mobility like jiggly.

 

[Sandwich]

We need more air win.
Just bairing all over the place does not simply win a match.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Agree with everything EXCEPT Kirby hats, but it seems that your idea has already been disproven anyway.

 

[skellitorman]

Why can't he have both types of kirby hats? Character Kirby hats for sucking up people and the ORIGINAL Kirby hats when he sucks up projectiles or items.

What they need to fix more IMO is the actual suck move to make it faster, and they also need to make the copy moves NOT suck like having a dagger for marth's B move or a little tiny arm punch for DK punch, or if you get hit while having a charged samus blast that you lose it, if you don't lose your power that is. He is supposed to get a stronger move when he copies the opponent not some cheap crap version!

 

[LuLLo]

IMO all he needs is some beefed up moves, like his dash attack and hammer are now, they look like they have more use, his nair needs more knockback, something like in 64, his fair needs to chain itself better (not just 1 kick), his stone needs 2 stars on landing too, like Yoshi's down-b.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Why can't he have both types of kirby hats? Character Kirby hats for sucking up people and the ORIGINAL Kirby hats when he sucks up projectiles or items.

Because it's completely unnecessary and extra work for a system already established. I guarantee we'll get one or the other, and we already have one in Brawl.

What they need to fix more IMO is the actual suck move to make it faster

Exactly

and they also need to make the copy moves NOT suck like having a dagger for marth's B move or a little tiny arm punch for DK punch, or if you get hit while having a charged samus blast that you lose it, if you don't lose your power that is. He is supposed to get a stronger move when he copies the opponent not some cheap crap version!

Power and capabilities are relative to size.

 

[Snake King 1]

I know Sakurai is basically the "father" of Kirby, and that he knows what he's doing. Nevertheless, here are a list of changes I'd really like to see the day Brawl launches.

#1 Moderated Speed
Kirby can't keep up in speed, attacks, lag, and practically in every regard to any good character. To keep Kirby competitive, fix the big gap in speed between characters in mind. (as far as I know of Brawl, this problem is already being addressed).

#2 Kirby Hats
Give us the Kirby hats from his games! Mario, Yoshi, and Pikachu hats are cute, but instead of making a new hat for every character for every game and trying to balance out those attacks, just give him the expected list of Hats and you'll be set from Brawl and forever after.

#3 Fix Bad Attacks
I don't care if an attack isn't uber, godly, or even especially spammy. What it needs is a reliable use. Kirby has too many attacks that just aren't useful in any practical sense. Many people would point at Stone, Hammer, and even the Final Cutter as the most obvious culprits, but instead of buffing these attacks they should be changed to something completely different and those attacks should be integrated into Stone, Hammer, and Cutter hats.

#4 Swallow, Copy, & Star Shot
Copying is Kirby's shtick, his singular trait, the attack he should be best known for. Making Swallow and Copy a reliable and useful attack would give players reason to use it. The main problem with it now is the terrible startup and horrible lag, all for an attack that does 8% damage, sets up the opponent to hit Kirby, and really doesn't give him any useful ability most of the time.

I realize that if Swallow had a great reach, grab priority, and little lag, it could be spammed and pretty annoying to the opponents. First of all, this really isn't such a bad thing as it would give Kirby at least one abusable attack. However, with the inclusion of "Swallowcide", this becomes more important to balance. The obvious thing to do is to improve Copy, and make Swallowcides harder. It's easy to do this: make it so opponents can break out very quickly after getting Swallowed, but make Copying fast and easy to do. If you're going to make Swallow like a grab, give it grab-like lag and range.

Star Shot is another shtick of Kirby, but what use is it when grabbing is easier and deals about the same damage? Well, the obvious thing to do is to improve Star Shot so it's more on par with Kirby's Throws. The amount of damage should be slightly higher, say 14% to 18% based on weight instead of, what, 10% to 18%? And pick up the speed on that thing, it seems to take forever to grab someone with Swallow and spit them out at a nearby opponent.

And, finally, give it some KO power. If Kirby's U-throw can kill someone approximately 200%, surely Star Shot could be used for KO potential. Just make "breaking out" of the star harder the higher percent the opponent has so that if they can't break out before being sent off-screen they get KO'd.

#5 Combos
The fun of this game is stringing attacks together and pummeling your opponent(s). Please give Kirby some combos. Kthnx.

#6 Hat Examples
Beam
Standard - Laser (like Fox's)
Side - Cycle Beam
Down - Beam Whip
Up - Beam whip (tether recovery like Ivysaur's)

Sword
Standard - Non-Stop Cutter Attack
Side - Cutter Boomarang
Down - High Speed Cutter Drop
Up - Final Cutter

Fire
Standard - Fire Blow
Side - Burning Attack
Down - Fireball Roll
Up - Fireball Spin

Fighter
Standard - Energy Ball
Side - Spin Kick
Down - Sweep Kick
Up - Rising Break

Hammer
Standard - Hammer Nail
Side - Hammer Swing
Down - Hammer Flip
Up - Giant Swing

Ice
Standard - Freezer Breath
Side - Freezer Blizzard
Down - Ice Kick
Up - Freezer Sprinkle

Parasol
Standard - Parasol Shield
Side - Parasol Drill
Down - Parasol Dive
Up - Parasol Chute

No Good
Gives no Hat

Bowser - Fire
Charizard - Fire
Diddy Kong - Fighter
Donkey Kong - Fighter
Fox - Beam (Laser)
Ice Climbers - Ice
Ike - Sword
Ivysaur - Fighter
King Dedede - Hammer
Kirby - No Good
Link - Sword
Lucas - Fighter (Yo-yo)
Mario - Fighter
Meta Knight - Sword
Peach - Parasol
Pikachu - Beam
Pit - Sword (Cupid)
Samus - Beam
Snake - Fighter
Sonic - Fighter (Wheel)
Squirtle - Fighter (Bubble)
Wario - Fighter
Yoshi - No Good
Zelda/Shiek - Fighter (Mirror for Zelda, Ninja for Shiek)
Zero Suit Samus - Beam

The Hats in parentheses are additional hats they could add specifically for those characters.

send this to sakurai. Kirby would be awesome and the fighter, beam and all that stuff make total sense. But what would his other 3 moves be?
b= absorb
down b= better stone
up b=missle or fc
right b= fire hammer or >b hammer in kirby and the amazing mirror
for MK, you should get master ability

 

[petre]

i like this new kirby...if thats how he was in brawl id definitely play him.

just to point out, sword and cutter are two different abilities, and what you have listed under sword sounds like kirby's cutter moves from KSS...

 

[t!MmY]

I know Sword and Cutter are two hats, but they can be combined together like I did with Fighter/Suplex and Beam/Laser, Fighter/Suplex, Fire/Burning, and Ice/Freeze.

And just to let everyone know, Kirby doesn't need more powerful attacks. He should be a relatively weak fighter that gets his KOs from "cheap" kills (edge guarding, spikes, etc). All he really needs to remain competitive is to be able to move (faster attacks and movement).

From what I played, Meta Knight is Kirby with speedy attacks, and this pretty much solved all Kirby's problems, especially since everyone else wasn't much faster in the ground/air. So I expect most of Kirby's problems will be mitigated or overcome with the new game-balance in Brawl.