Meta Swordfighter Matchups. Zero Suit Samus

[GeneralLedge]

I'll say in an optimistic situation, Stone Scabbard beats both of Zelda's tricks (Nayru and Farore) thanks to invincibility and all that. Very risky in the latter situation, but you can just enter it early to forego the risk of trading blows and slam your knife on her head.

There's also Hero's Spin, of course, to punish a whiff'd Farore very hard.

...And on a side-note, only now am I wondering why Mii Sword isn't just a thief archtype instead of a crummy swordsman. It'd be so much more capable, and you don't even need to fudge with the sword length that much. Dang it, Sakurai.

 

[Antonykun]

http://smashboards.com/threads/knig...nder-and-battle-request.403400/#post-19280710
^ go here if you want to face a swordfighter

I'll say in an optimistic situation, Stone Scabbard beats both of Zelda's tricks (Nayru and Farore) thanks to invincibility and all that. Very risky in the latter situation, but you can just enter it early to forego the risk of trading blows and slam your knife on her head.

There's also Hero's Spin, of course, to punish a whiff'd Farore very hard.

...And on a side-note, only now am I wondering why Mii Sword isn't just a thief archtype instead of a crummy swordsman. It'd be so much more capable, and you don't even need to fudge with the sword length that much. Dang it, Sakurai.

Because Brawler is the thief archetype
Swordfighter is the Warrior
and Gunner is the Mage

 

[GeneralLedge]

Brawler is the level 20 monk with touch of death.

 

[DoctorDub]

Swordfighter?
To be brutally honest, nobody I've played is masochistic enough to main this character. As far as I know in the Zelda v Sword MU, the only thing you guys've got going for you is that little bit of range that we don't have on some moves, but then I feel this'll just get you camped out with projectiles. I honestly can't see much in this match up for me to talk about at all. Sorry, friends.

If I had to guess, I'd say 6:4

 

[Unknownkid]

Swordfighter?
To be brutally honest, nobody I've played is masochistic enough to main this character. As far as I know in the Zelda v Sword MU, the only thing you guys've got going for you is that little bit of range that we don't have on some moves, but then I feel this'll just get you camped out with projectiles. I honestly can't see much in this match up for me to talk about at all. Sorry, friends.

If I had to guess, I'd say 6:4

Camp us with Projectiles? You mean with Din's Fire? You do know that Gale Strike has a wind box at the second end of the move right? Have you ever face a Mario with a Charged FLUDD before? Not fun, huh?

Oh you mean that Guardian thing... That thing you jump over on reaction and punish severely.

Yeah, the matchup is definitely 6:4 in Zelda Favor.

Just messing with you. From one masochist nut to another.

 

[DoctorDub]

Camp us with Projectiles? You mean with Din's Fire? You do know that Gale Strike has a wind box at the second end of the move right? Have you ever face a Mario with a Charged FLUDD before? Not fun, huh?

Oh you mean that Guardian thing... That thing you jump over on reaction and punish severely.

Yeah, the matchup is definitely 6:4 in Zelda Favor.

Just messing with you. From one masochist nut to another.

Gale Strike?
I don't even know what that move even is, if I'm honest.

Like I said, I've little to no idea on how swordfighter operates. Dunno how long you lag nor do I even know what all of your moves even look like.

And nobody half decent is gonna give you time to react by charging a phantom against you for any real length of time. That's just silly.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Why are people surmising matchups they've never experienced and simultaneously providing fake, imaginary matchup numbers to rock the vote in their favor anyway? When they don't know what a single, solitary move the character in question has? And by proxy have likely never seen them operate?

I don't even know if I can place blame, really. We don't have the resources to teach such things in the first place. If only there were a place you could test characters with...

 

[Unknownkid]

Gale Strike?
I don't even know what that move even is, if I'm honest.

Like I said, I've little to no idea on how swordfighter operates. Dunno how long you lag nor do I even know what all of your moves even look like.

And nobody half decent is gonna give you time to react by charging a phantom against you for any real length of time. That's just silly.

Well you said camp us... The only move you can camp with are Din's Fire and haha Phantom. I already stated that Din's Fire is dangerous in Neutral because of Gale Strike (the tornado move). We have enough time to move after the tornado moves about 1/4 the distance I believe. And who camps with Phantom?

Why are people surmising matchups they've never experienced and simultaneously providing fake, imaginary matchup numbers to rock the vote in their favor anyway? When they don't know what a single, solitary move the character in question has? And by proxy have likely never seen them operate?

I don't even know if I can place blame, really. We don't have the resources to teach such things in the first place. If only there were a place you could test characters with...

Because Swordfighter is the worst character, silly. You are a masochist for using him seriously. It is not like you can win a tournament or 3 with him.

 

[DoctorDub]

Why are people surmising matchups they've never experienced and simultaneously providing fake, imaginary matchup numbers to rock the vote in their favor anyway? When they don't know what a single, solitary move the character in question has? And by proxy have likely never seen them operate?

We were asked if we knew anything of the match up. Albeit that our knowledge is very slim we at least made an attempt to say something which is better than nothing I would think. I apologise for attempting to give some input on how I imagine it would go rather than ignoring you all. I know how much it must anger you that I at least wanted to say something.
You remember when I said that I was guessing with the match up numbers I gave?

You are a masochist for using him seriously. It is not like you can win a tournament or 3 with him.

And when I said that maining sword was masochism, I was joking. I thought it was obvious through the sheer irony.


I'm clearly not wanted here, so I'll just go. Once again, I apologise for wasting your valuable time.

 

[Unknownkid]

And when I said that maining sword was masochism, I was joking. I thought it was obvious through the sheer irony.
I'm clearly not wanted here, so I'll just go. Once again, I apologise for wasting your valuable time.

Oh it was. But it also true. Swordfighter takes commitment to use like Zelda. But unlike Zelda, he isn't well known and lack the sass.

Nah, you are welcome here with open arms. We are both using maochistic type characters. I wouldn't be surprised to see Zelda take a tournament or 3 herself.

 

[Zylach]

We were called in to give our opinions on the MU. We don't have a lot of experience on the MU but an educated theory on how the MU should go on what we have (I've played with Swordfighter before and beaten some good friends of mine with it to their great distaste) is better than ignoring it. If you guys have specific data to show off how our opinions are wrong, please share it. I actually really want to hear what Swordfighter can do because I don't know everything Swordfighter can do and knowledge is a good thing. Being proven wrong isn't bad. Please prove me wrong. I want you to because I don't have strong support to back up my claim.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Damn, I wish we could play smash bros online to avoid conflicts of opinion.

 

[Unknownkid]

We were called in to give our opinions on the MU. We don't have a lot of experience on the MU but an educated theory on how the MU should go on what we have (I've played with Swordfighter before and beaten some good friends of mine with it to their great distaste) is better than ignoring it. If you guys have specific data to show off how our opinions are wrong, please share it. I actually really want to hear what Swordfighter can do because I don't know everything Swordfighter can do and knowledge is a good thing. Being proven wrong isn't bad. Please prove me wrong. I want you to because I don't have strong support to back up my claim.

That is good. This is how Matchup thread should work. Gathering both side of the respective character and we discussion/ theorycraft/test/experience the matchup. Otherwise, it will be biased. If you think Zelda beats Swordfighter then she beats SF. If we think that SF beats Zelda, then he beats Zelda. If it is 40:40, then it is 40:40.

But the point is we comes to a common conclusion on the matchup that we are both satisfied with. I am a theorycraft person. If I hear something wrong, I will contest it and I want the same from all of you. We can joke around and taunt each other as along as we do it with a good heart.

I think the matchup is 40:40. You cannot cut Sass with a Butter Knife.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Potentially the worst problem I've noticed in this thread is the general lack of knowledge surrounding the Swordfighter. Because of Nintendo's decision to not allow him online (not even in For Fun) many people, after the initial hype, simply forgot that the Miis existed. Maybe there are a few things that could be done to help fix this?

(Note: If any of the following exist, could someone please tell me? I don't want to be uninformed.)
For one, maybe there should be a friend code sharing thread within all of the Mii boards? Without the ability to practice online, lots of people are limited to the people in their community - if they're this dedicated to Smash Bros to pick a character that isn't supported online? I'd believe that they're better than most of the people around them, thus making practice very hard, and knowledge about the Miis suppressed even further.

Just having one thread for friend codes, for Wii U and 3DS alike, would immensely help with this. For one, the members of the Mii boards could play against each other for experience. In particular, I'd be willing to help. I'm a R.O.B main with relative inexperience of any other player, but I have played a bit of Zelda. Unfortunately, because I haven't even had the chance to play with a single Swordfighter, let alone a Mii? I can contribute nothing of interest.

Offering friend codes to mains of other characters would allow you to practice on them, to see what flaws exist, and fix them. Maybe that's being a bit too optimistic, to think that every other main would be willing to do such a thing in the first place. Otherwise, the only way knowledge about this character, and the other Miis, is going to spread is via tournaments.

So, let me try and contribute first. For anyone who wants to practice against a Zelda, (albeit an awful, awful one) my friend code for my 3DS is on full display. Let's spread knowledge of characters who deserve it!

Edit: Will be back later.

 

[Unknownkid]

Good to hear, sir. On the Swordfighter front page our Unofficial Mod, Anthonykun, post a thread for friend codes against our fellow Swordfighters. Have fun challenging them.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Good! When I get back, I'll look into it.

 

[Antonykun]

i have to appologixe for not helping with this thread my mom has undergone surgery so i have to keep an eye for her if you guys want to move on do let me know so i can update the op

 

[MintyBreeze]

i have to appologixe for not helping with this thread my mom has undergone surgery so i have to keep an eye for her if you guys want to move on do let me know so i can update the op

Oh my gosh, please continue with that! Sticking with your mom through a tough situation like surgery would be much more important, especially since there are capable people who will take the spot while you're absent. Don't worry at all and stay with your family.

 

[Antonykun]

Oh my gosh, please continue with that! Sticking with your mom through a tough situation like surgery would be much more important, especially since there are capable people who will take the spot while you're absent. Don't worry at all and stay with your family.

I mean don't get me wrong she's fine now and it was a very easy surgery but I do have to focus on her and I used to do some big write ups for the characters of the week and I really wanted to do one for villager since she's my main :/
oh yes I forgot to mention we do have a battle request thread but its currently all swordfighters
http://smashboards.com/threads/knig...hter-player-finder-and-battle-request.403400/
im kinda hoping to find some free time and do some battle requests there

 

[MintyBreeze]

@ Antonykun
In that case, here's what I would suggest; Perhaps a thread could be opened for the community of Swordfighters to give their thoughts on the MUs you listed, headed by a trustworthy OP, and once your mother has healed up, you'll be able to post your own thoughts and draw from theirs? While it might not be efficient, it'd let discussion continue, for one, and you'd be able to watch over your mother.

By the way, could we link up as friends? I'd like to get MU experience against a good, dedicated Mii, especially a Swordfighter. I'm sorry if it's rude of me to ask.

 

[Moderate skill]

So what do you guys think about Swordfighter's matchups with the new characters?

Ryu is OK; we have disjoints and tornado for stopping hadouken. Ryu has a sketchy recovery (in the face of our attacks at least) but we die pretty early. Ryu is said to have good combos but I have yet to encounter them.

Roy is pretty sad. We get comboed for ages and die at low percents too. Projectiles can't do much to help. Roy has a bad recovery, at least. Feel free to simply walk backward to gain breathing room if you need to.

Lucas is probably even. Feel free to wreck his recovery, but remember to footstool for the kill. Lucas also has slow smashes but unlike ours they kill well. Tornadoes stop PK Fire and, against PK Freeze, can toss Lucas into helpless above (not off of :\) the ledge, letting us get a punish. Counter is good against his awkward rushdown pressure. Either side can Fsmash the other at the ledge for early kills. Nair is pretty good. Don't get grabbed, punish Lucas's attempts as hard as you can. If you're near the edge of PK Fire's range, jumping or walking away are both viable options to dodge.

 

[Antonykun]

End Thoughts:
Zelda vs Swordfighter
A very patience based MU If swordfighter makes a mistake against Zelda's shield, Swordfighter gets hit really hard or even elevatored
Like wise Should zelda lose her patience she can expect a long string of disadvantage and she is light enough to get obliterated by up-air

Villager vs Swordfighter
Villager can pressure Swordfighter and even edgeguard him heavily while also being as heavy as Luigi and have a powerful recovery
not a very fun MU

Ike vs Swordfgihter
Stay on the ground unless you an land a move Ike will demolish Swordfighter is he's in the air with his superior air speed and aerials

So what do you guys think about Swordfighter's matchups with the new characters?

Ryu is OK; we have disjoints and tornado for stopping hadouken. Ryu has a sketchy recovery (in the face of our attacks at least) but we die pretty early. Ryu is said to have good combos but I have yet to encounter them.

Roy is pretty sad. We get comboed for ages and die at low percents too. Projectiles can't do much to help. Roy has a bad recovery, at least. Feel free to simply walk backward to gain breathing room if you need to.

Lucas is probably even. Feel free to wreck his recovery, but remember to footstool for the kill. Lucas also has slow smashes but unlike ours they kill well. Tornadoes stop PK Fire and, against PK Freeze, can toss Lucas into helpless above (not off of :\) the ledge, letting us get a punish. Counter is good against his awkward rushdown pressure. Either side can Fsmash the other at the ledge for early kills. Nair is pretty good. Don't get grabbed, punish Lucas's attempts as hard as you can. If you're near the edge of PK Fire's range, jumping or walking away are both viable options to dodge.

I'm probably going to change the title to support conversation to the DLC characters

 

[MintyBreeze]

Feel free to wreck his recovery, but remember to footstool for the kill.

If you feel like yoloing Lucas, at high percents, when both of you could die from a good attack, counter his PSI Thunder recovery off-stage and slap him to the blastzones.

 

[san.]

This probably isn't a surprise, but Ike is tons harder to deal with now. Fair properly outranges in the air, his landing lag has been reduced, combos are better, and close quarters game is better. Swordfighter still has the 5-frame dtilt, but it will be a lot tougher to get around Ike's kick and ftilt.

Dair is still a pain for Ike and combos are still just as good as before, but Ike probably wins this now.

 

[Trieste SP]

This probably isn't a surprise, but Ike is tons harder to deal with now. Fair properly outranges in the air, his landing lag has been reduced, combos are better, and close quarters game is better. Swordfighter still has the 5-frame dtilt, but it will be a lot tougher to get around Ike's kick and ftilt.

Dair is still a pain for Ike and combos are still just as good as before, but Ike probably wins this now.

Yeah the buffs he got in the new patch really makes this MU in his favor now.

 

[Ffamran]

Musashi Miyamoto once wrote: "Know your enemy; know his sword." Well, the Falco boards began their Mii Swordfighter matchup discussion and we will know our enemy and know their sword. It's ongoing, so drop by whenever: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...1-mii-swordfighter-bread-butter-knife.410881/.

You can blame Antonykun for the title. Butter knives; if only they were butterfly knives.

And if you want to play against Falco players to learn about the MU or just for fun, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Unknownkid]

Thanks Ffamran. We will try to contribute.

 

[Trieste SP]

Musashi Miyamoto once wrote: "Know your enemy; know his sword." Well, the Falco boards began their Mii Swordfighter matchup discussion and we will know our enemy and know their sword. It's ongoing, so drop by whenever: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...1-mii-swordfighter-bread-butter-knife.410881/.

You can blame Antonykun for the title. Butter knives; if only they were butterfly knives.

And if you want to play against Falco players to learn about the MU or just for fun, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

Well... I do main both Falco and Swordfighter. I'll definitely join in the discussion for both characters.

 

[Daxter]

I've always stuck with 1111; I got used to it because of the uncertainty surrounding custom move allowance.

This moveset seems to work wonders against most Villagers I've faced on Anthers. All manner of ways to keep the opponent on their toes, while slowly approaching, providing you play patiently. If the Villager pockets a Tornado, it's not too big a deal - it still takes time to emerge, and we can still use some to stop those annoying Gyroids, or even the slingshot if we're lucky. I've KOed a couple of trigger-happy villagers by reserving my counters for when I'm in their face; they seem to panic and try to knock me away. If we're knocked off the stage though; oh Gods, is Villager ever going to have a field day with us. All too many ways to ledge-guard.

 

[Routa]

Hmm as a Ike and new Mii Swordfighter main I would say that the MU is 55:45 or even 60:40 (if you don't use any projectile or/and counter) on Ike's favour. SS Swordfighter has easier time comboing Ike, but TT Swordfighter has easier time killing Ike and has better poking game. This is one of the few MUs where you Counter is your best friend. Also if you want to get kills I suggest you to go deep. Also do not approach. I repeat. DO NOT APPROACH! Force Ike to approach (use thous projectiles!). But then again... If Ike hits you even once... You will get KOed.

 

[Antonykun]

allright seeing as i managed to get a weekly discussion to go through 2 months i think its best that we have an intermission period where we just talk about what ever MU comes to mind

 

[DigitalAtom6]

It seems this thread has been on hold for a while now and today being a sunday, I think it might be a good time for a reboot. Thus, I have a couple suggestions for an MU to discuss: ZSS, or Diddy Kong. Both are very popular and powerful characters, so getting them out of the way first seems the most helpful to me.

Let me start with my experiences with ZSS first. There is one thing ZSS loves best and that is a grab. To this end, ZSS often uses her gun and D-smash to paralyze and follow up. Spacing her aerials to approach and pressure the opponent is bread and butter for her, even more than her gun. I know from experience that ZSS dreads counters. Her DA and Bair aren't so safe on an opponent with a counter. Uair juggles aren't as easy either.

That's why I recommend using the counter against her. It's also obvious that ZSS is faster than Mii sword and can easily punish approaches, so I'd say to force her to approach Mii sword. SoL and Chakram will help greatly with that. As for recovery, since going in deep against ZSS is near pointless, getting something that focuses on keeping ourselves alive. Hero's spin has KO power on top, so I'd recommend that.

The main problem for Mii sword in this MU is getting the KO. It's not so much that ZSS is heavy, but rather that she's hard to catch with any of our KO moves. You'd need a pretty good read, but since ZSS likes to be in the air a lot, it seems to me that Uair, Bair and Usmash are the most common KO moves on her. Either that, or counter her own KO moves. Since her UpB is the only thing we can't counter, ZSS wants us in the air. Let's avoid that simply by keeping her away. If she does manage to get us in the air, how would she deal with Dair? Uair or UpB won't work, so Fair would be the most likely answer. This makes it all big mindgames.
Will I Dair or Counter? Will she Fair or Uair?

I think Mii sword has all the tools necessary to counter what ZSS can do, but the other way around is true too. Therefore, I'd rate this 50/50. That's just my opinion and experience, though.

 

[Antonykun]

It seems this thread has been on hold for a while now and today being a sunday, I think it might be a good time for a reboot. Thus, I have a couple suggestions for an MU to discuss: ZSS, or Diddy Kong. Both are very popular and powerful characters, so getting them out of the way first seems the most helpful to me.

Let me start with my experiences with ZSS first. There is one thing ZSS loves best and that is a grab. To this end, ZSS often uses her gun and D-smash to paralyze and follow up. Spacing her aerials to approach and pressure the opponent is bread and butter for her, even more than her gun. I know from experience that ZSS dreads counters. Her DA and Bair aren't so safe on an opponent with a counter. Uair juggles aren't as easy either.

That's why I recommend using the counter against her. It's also obvious that ZSS is faster than Mii sword and can easily punish approaches, so I'd say to force her to approach Mii sword. SoL and Chakram will help greatly with that. As for recovery, since going in deep against ZSS is near pointless, getting something that focuses on keeping ourselves alive. Hero's spin has KO power on top, so I'd recommend that.

The main problem for Mii sword in this MU is getting the KO. It's not so much that ZSS is heavy, but rather that she's hard to catch with any of our KO moves. You'd need a pretty good read, but since ZSS likes to be in the air a lot, it seems to me that Uair, Bair and Usmash are the most common KO moves on her. Either that, or counter her own KO moves. Since her UpB is the only thing we can't counter, ZSS wants us in the air. Let's avoid that simply by keeping her away. If she does manage to get us in the air, how would she deal with Dair? Uair or UpB won't work, so Fair would be the most likely answer. This makes it all big mindgames.
Will I Dair or Counter? Will she Fair or Uair?

I think Mii sword has all the tools necessary to counter what ZSS can do, but the other way around is true too. Therefore, I'd rate this 50/50. That's just my opinion and experience, though.

It's going to be a while before I can come back to my keyboard so I'll just tag @ Project Crysis to say a sentence or two about the MU from ZSS view point.

EDIT:
I have returned to my keyboard so time to write about this MU.

ZSS is one Slippery Woman. Not only does she like to short hop a lot making her immune to like 70% (possible hyperbole) of Swordfighter's moves in neutral while still being able to use a wide variety of moves against us, but she also can use Flip Jump to escape a wide variety of out set ups and advantageous scenarios. Further more her punish game is ridiculous with down throw up air and her back air making our back air look like a joke in raw power (for reference Swordfighter's back air is one of the stronger moves in his arsenal) being able to kill at just about any percent meaning you have to be more careful with moves such as F-smash and Dash Attack.

Now what can Swordfighter do? Respect the grab and play defensively. If's She's in the air, set up a defense against an up coming attack. Up air works wonders for this purpose as does holding a shield and shield grabbing if you are in range for it. Should she be on the ground be prepared to react to a grab or if you are bold rush her down. Should she go into the air F-air would beat every thing she would do so there and should she shield then a dash grab will be heavily rewarded, either by landing a nasty down throw up air combo or simply kicking her off the stage for a potential edgeguard attempt. Edgeguarding ZSS is by no means easy as she has at least three mix-ups attempts even on a vacuum that ignores jumping and whatnot (in a vacuum most characters have one option) but Swordfighter has the tools to beat every of those options:
Should she Flip Jump, an Up-Air can intercept her possibly ending the stock
Should she Plasma whip to tether back to the stage, D-air can spike her to the bottom of the stage where her poor vertical recovery makes it so she's gimped
Should she Boost kick to come back, D-air also works but the positioning and timing is different than intercepting the plasma whip.

The most important thing to know in this MU is to make all your punishes count.

 

[Project Crysis]

Hmmm I never actually tried to analyze this MU I find from my matches with @ Antonykun that her mobility is a key part in winning this. Since I fill like SF doesn't have to great of a landing option you definitely want to stay grounded against the waifu. I've also learned don't get grabbed past 50% cause you're most likely going to die. That's about all the inpu I got considering I have never analyzed this My before. I hope I was some help

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Mii Swordfighter mains. The Marth boards have begun discussion on the Mii Swordfighter matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth player for matchup knowledge, please join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-mii-swordfighter-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.415945/

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Mii Swordfighters out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Mii Swordfighter. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Mii Swordfighter match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/417451/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Antonykun]

I wanted to make a very very rough MU chart for Swordfighter partially based on things said in this thread
Somethings though:
as much as I love Swordfighter, my love from him partially stems from his days as the indisputable worst character in smash
also I find that Swordfighter is way too easy to camp out and too easy edgeguard id he doesn't have SSD

Spoiler

Wins:
(assuming 1111)
Neutral:

Loses:


not enough info:

[\spoiler]

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-mii-swordfighter.419602/

Hey Mii Swordfighter mains!

The Charizard boards are discussing the Charizard vs Mii Swordfighter matchup! Come over and tell us what you think!

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-mii-swordfighter.419602/

Hey Mii Swordfighter mains!

The Charizard boards are discussing the Charizard vs Mii Swordfighter matchup! Come over and tell us what you think!

Please help us with this, we've got nothing except Chakrams control space...

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Please help us with this, we've got nothing except Chakrams control space...

That's not true, the tornado and SoL are great spacing tools as well. In Charizard's case, I remember he hates being above people, so Tornado is perfect against him.