Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Cyclone_]

+ I have wrote why I think he should be higher many times so I wont repeat myself unless someone wants to know the reasoning.

Ill take a reason why, being as i haven't heard

 

[Nessimator]

-1
I'm gonna have to completely agree with @Feelicks here; Jiggs is just a bad mix of a lot of stuff with very little going for her.

 

[Deleted member]

-1
I'm gonna have to completely agree with @Feelicks here; Jiggs is just a bad mix of a lot of stuff with very little going for her.

I'm even inclined to say that she's worse than she was in Brawl. At least in that game she had DACUS, edgehogging to help her edgeguarding game, and Rest couldn't be punished after hitting the move successfully.

 

[Xandercosm]

Ill take a reason why, being as i haven't heard

I like that you are honest about the viability of your own main.

 

[kirby509]

+ (Too many good results)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

This is it, my final vote of this tier list. It has been a great run, and I will show you the character that is most out of placed

-1
Sheik is the worst character in the game. I mean, how can you fight when you can't breathe. Also, he hacks those needles js...





JK JK NOT SHEIK :D

+1 Worth a shot?

 

[Furret24]

I'm even inclined to say that she's worse than she was in Brawl. At least in that game she had DACUS, edgehogging to help her edgeguarding game, and Rest couldn't be punished after hitting the move successfully.

Her smashes and specials were better too.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

In case new characters are announced on Thursday, I think the current list should be put on hold until enough meta for the new fighters is developed.
I was going to up MK, but he already has enough upvotes, so I'll vote for Because I really don't know who else to vote for lol

 

[Rinku リンク]

To all Zelda voters...

What makes Zelda not bottom tier?

She has some pretty solid string combo potential and can kill pretty early with Up-B (especially with rage).

Her F-smash and U-Smash have fairly good range as well. Being multi-hit allows the opportunity to create walls and trap opponents when they try to spot dodge or air dodge.

I honestly think her kill potential is underrated considering all her aerials have the potential to kill when sweet-spotted. Her zoning/spacing game is also decent as well when you combine her tilts and specials together.

Yes I agree that a lot of characters do X this better/easier but that fact that she has at least this much going for her in my opinion means she isn't the worst character in the game.

tl;dr is my Waifu please stop being mean to her.

 

[Cyclone_]

I like that you are honest about the viability of your own main.

He just straight up is not a viable tournament character that is a fact. The viable characters end at link. Marth doesn't have a single kill set up, doesn't have a kill throw till 160-200, he combos like a brick wall and wracks damage like he's using a toothpick if not spaced properly. People are too biased against their own mains to see that oh... maybe my main is actually kinda ****

 

[Deleted member 269706]

In my opinion, Link has the most undiscovered potential. Gonna have to go with Link for my vote!

 

[Bowserboy3]

He just straight up is not a viable tournament character that is a fact. The viable characters end at link. Marth doesn't have a single kill set up, doesn't have a kill throw till 160-200, he combos like a brick wall and wracks damage like he's using a toothpick if not spaced properly. People are too biased against their own mains to see that oh... maybe my main is actually kinda ****

See, I think you are being way too harsh on Marth. The whole "he fights with a dagger" theory died months ago when it was actually dicovered that Marth has more reach than in Brawl on most of his attacks. The only attack that has noticeably less reach is Fsmash, as the animation is different, and here stems the whole problem. Because it is Marth's main kill move, when people noticed it was smaller when the game came out, it was just assumed he had less range overall. I'm not going to lie, I was one of the people who thought this. But many of his moves have the same range, if not more range than in Brawl, with Dancing Blade, Utilt, Ftilt, Usmash and Nair being examples of moves with more reach than in Brawl. The thing is that many other characters have had similar changes, like being re sized to be more in line with in game appearances, such as Bowser, DK, Ike etc. In doing so, this increases their standard reach as they are bigger. Marth wasn't changed like this, so though his reach hasn't been nerfed, others have been buffed so to speak. Marth does not fight with a dagger or "toothpick". Marth has decent combos, and can mix up his combos depending on if he lands a tipper or sourspot. Utilt chains into eachother. You can then juggle with Uair, or use Bair then Fair for example. Jab 1 leads into all of his tilts. Dtilt can lead into Dancing Blade. Remember Marth can Jab 1 into a tipper Fsmash on most of the cast. If you are at the edge with the opponent at about 100%, Jab 1 up close into Dolphin Slash is a true combo on fast fallers that kills. Dtilt into Foxtrot Cancelled (or extended Dash Dance Cancel) Fsmash can tipper at an average of about 50%, and landing a spike on a grounded opponent that misses the tech at around 55% average can lead into a tipper Fsmash. A bit later leads into a tipper Usmash. People don't use Foxtrot Cancelling enough with Marth, and he benefits arguably the most from it, along with Falcon and Mac. So though some of these seem rather unorthodox, Marth DOES have kill setups. To top it off, Marth has arguably one of the best off stage games. Land a tipper Bair off stage, that can seal a stock out as low as 50%. In regards to kill throws, Marth's is actually pretty solid. Mario's Bthrow is his kill throw, and it needs at least 130% to kill, and for that you must be near the ledge. Marth's kills about 20% later, but you can be anywhere on the stage for it to work, and it will kill even earlier on certain stages, with platforms etc.

And Marth would only be moving up to tier 4, we aren't trying to make out he is top tier (Ha, I wish. Patch changes plz...).

 

[DarkK]

-1
I'm gonna have to completely agree with @Feelicks here; Jiggs is just a bad mix of a lot of stuff with very little going for her.

I'm even inclined to say that she's worse than she was in Brawl. At least in that game she had DACUS, edgehogging to help her edgeguarding game, and Rest couldn't be punished after hitting the move successfully.

This is why Sakurai has to BUFF THE PUFF!

please ;-;

 

[Furret24]

This is why Sakurai has to BUFF THE PUFF!

please ;-;

Jigglypuff needs some #Jigglybuffs

Sprid da werd gaiz.

 

[Deleted member]

Not sure if this was off topic, but if I still had a vote I probably would have upvoted . He wouldn't go up that much tbh, but he definitely has a hell of a lot more going for him than say, Lucina. Near the bottom of tier 5 is a better place for him.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not sure if this was off topic, but if I still had a vote I probably would have upvoted . He wouldn't go up that much tbh, but he definitely has a hell of a lot more going for him than say, Lucina. Near the bottom of tier 5 is a better place for him.

Now I'd have to disagree with you there (in regards to Lucina). I still son't think the gap between Marth and Lucina is THAT large. IMO, its still just a couple of spaces. But of course, each to their own.

Though I do agree with your vote on Jiggly though. She's one of those characters for me that one buff in the right area could send her viability right up, but she just has not enough to work with this time around for me.

 

[Xandercosm]

Well, I'm really interested in where the game will go in the next patch (assuming there actually is one). I'm sure they will address some balance issues and stuff which means re-working this tier list but that isn't the end of the world. As long as they change some much needed things, I think it'll be worth it to start over. Still, it's a little scary. Hopefully they change some of the things we have been asking them to for months. It's annoying to see so many characters that deserve buffs without them as well as so many characters that deserve nerfs without those either. Hopefully they'll try to pack as many serious balance tweaks into this patch as they can. I'd almost rather they get all of them over at once, instead of releasing tons of smaller balance patches over the next few months.

 

[scapemaster]

+1

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

+

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well, I'm really interested in where the game will go in the next patch (assuming there actually is one). I'm sure they will address some balance issues and stuff which means re-working this tier list but that isn't the end of the world. As long as they change some much needed things, I think it'll be worth it to start over. Still, it's a little scary. Hopefully they change some of the things we have been asking them to for months. It's annoying to see so many characters that deserve buffs without them as well as so many characters that deserve nerfs without those either. Hopefully they'll try to pack as many serious balance tweaks into this patch as they can. I'd almost rather they get all of them over at once, instead of releasing tons of smaller balance patches over the next few months.

I think the first thing they need to fix is to make sure that all characters get some sort of solid reward from throws. There are far too many characters with mediocre throws or get too little reward off of them, such as Marth, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Wario, Bowser Jr, etc, when there are characters like Mario, Sheik, Ness, Luigi, Roy etc who can use throws for some sort of effect whenever.

 

[Furret24]

I think the first thing they need to fix is to make sure that all characters get some sort of solid reward from throws. There are far too many characters with mediocre throws or get too little reward off of them, such as Marth, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Wario, Bowser Jr, etc, when there are characters like Mario, Sheik, Ness, Luigi, Roy etc who can use throws for some sort of effect whenever.

Wario, Marth, and Lucina get decent kill throws though. Jigglypuff and Bowser Jr. get a bit of damage and that's it.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the first thing they need to fix is to make sure that all characters get some sort of solid reward from throws. There are far too many characters with mediocre throws or get too little reward off of them, such as Marth, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Wario, Bowser Jr, etc, when there are characters like Mario, Sheik, Ness, Luigi, Roy etc who can use throws for some sort of effect whenever.

Dedede also needs a kill throw badly. He's a friggin' super heavyweight and forward throw/back throw don't start killing at the edge until over 180%. It's ridiculous. Not to mention they pop the opponent upwards instead of sideways, making it easy for the opponent to recover from.

Wario, Marth, and Lucina get decent kill throws though. Jigglypuff and Bowser Jr. get a bit of damage and that's it.

Marth and Lucina getting a buff to up throw that makes it kill reliably at a much earlier percentage would do wonders for them, and I feel like their other throws need lower knockback so they can capitalize on followups better. Wario does have a good kill throw in the form of his forward throw, but his other throws have little practical followups besides maybe dash attack out of down throw at low percents.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wario, Marth, and Lucina get decent kill throws though. Jigglypuff and Bowser Jr. get a bit of damage and that's it.

Sorry, I probably should have made myself clear. I mean reliable combo throws where you can get more follow ups from them. Most characters have one. Take Marth and Lucina for example. Their Dthrow is ok, but at 0% only really. Yes, you can string 3 or 4 attacks in off of it, but compare that to Mario's Dthrow, Sheik's Fthrow and Dthrow, Roy's Dthrow etc. Not great compared to theirs.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

+ This character is amazing, he is at least as good as Yoshi for heaven's sake. Yoshi is so overrated, not even good. Link on the other hand can literally pull you in with wind boomerang and kill you with usmash at like 75%.

 

[Deleted member]

+ This character is amazing, he is at least as good as Yoshi for heaven's sake. Yoshi is so overrated, not even good. Link on the other hand can literally pull you in with wind boomerang and kill you with usmash at like 80%.

While I agree Link is incredibly underdeveloped and has a lot of potential going for him, I wouldn't call him amazing. His frame data is below-average overall and his mobility isn't that good and he suffers from being combo food due to his weight and falling speed. His projectile setups, kill power, great recovery and survivability are stuff to be feared though.

 

[Furret24]

Dedede also needs a kill throw badly. He's a friggin' super heavyweight and forward throw/back throw don't start killing at the edge until over 180%. It's ridiculous. Not to mention they pop the opponent upwards instead of sideways, making it easy for the opponent to recover from.

Throws that kill at 180%?

My mains envy you.

 

[Bowserboy3]

His projectile setups, kill power, great recovery and survivability are stuff to be feared though.

As well as Link on FG... Lag shoots Link up plenty of tiers when it's impossible to shield his onslaught.

 

[NEStalgia314]

+ I feel his play is very underdeveloped, but he desperately needs some buffs to become truly competitive. However, when played right, I feel he becomes one of the scariest characters in the game, especially if you know how to read.

 

[Deleted member]

+ I feel his play is very underdeveloped, but he desperately needs some buffs to become truly competitive. However, when played right, I feel he becomes one of the scariest characters in the game, especially if you know how to read.

Agreed to an extent. Ganon has an amazing bait-and-punish game, probably the most deadly out of the whole roster. It's just that he has trouble catching up at top level due to players making very little mistakes there and him having little to offset most of the high tiers due to his poor range, speed and frame data. If he got a huge frame data overhaul generally along with Dark Dive and Wizard's Foot gaining good KO power (I still don't understand why Dark Dive DOESN'T KILL UNTIL 300???), he could have some good stuff going for him. He'd still have to deal with being combo food and all, but that's the life of a heavyweight.

I do wanna say though, if he had Warlock Blade, Dark Fists, Wizard's Dropkick and Flame Choke as his default specials he'd easily be a solid mid-tier.

 

[KenMeister]

-1 I understand MikeKirby is placing well with him at regionals, but once people figure out how to lame Kirby out in neutral, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. His reward for getting in also isn't nearly that great past low/mid percent, so he's forced to throw out pokes for the remainder of the stock, which is hard to do when dealing with his mediocre neutral, given he has trouble closing the gap well because of his terrible midrange, average run speed, and slow air game. He could probably use some frame data buffs to his ariels and universal changes to dash attack if he wants to move up.

+1 Shield and patch changes has helped her out a ton, giving her more viable tools in neutral (dtilt, nair, utilt for example) and if mixups like SHAD are implemented well, if you're not a rushdown character, she's going to be pretty hard to approach safely. Her top tier matchups are still pretty sketchy (Mario, Sheik and Pika come to mind), but if she continues to get frame data and hitbox buffs I could see her standing her ground

-1 With the evolving meta and bad MUs arising (MK and Ryu come to mind) I can't really see Mario holding up in Top 5 in the future, let alone Top 10. Top 15 sounds more ideal, it's just his kit is too basic to really hold any ground in the advancing top level meta when his approach options and midrange game continue to get exploited (the rise of many Fox players especially comes to mind, since he exploits this pretty well). Good character who does really well atm, but far too overrated. Only way I can see people advancing his meta is if people continue to mess with his combo game more (dair>upsmash is a new thing) or use SHAD mixups/punishes more. Oh hey, this sounds like Mario's meta in literally every other Smash game! lol

EDIT: Just saw the rules, I'll put my vote on Samus. My opinions still hold, though.

 

[Deleted member]

-1 I understand MikeKirby is placing well with him at regionals, but once people figure out how to lame Kirby out in neutral, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. His reward for getting in also isn't nearly that great past low/mid percent, so he's forced to throw out pokes for the remainder of the stock, which is hard to do when dealing with his mediocre neutral, given he has trouble closing the gap well because of his terrible midrange, average run speed, and slow air game. He could probably use some frame data buffs to his air game if he wants to move up.

+1 Shield and patch changes has helped her out a ton, giving her more viable tools in neutral (dtilt, nair, utilt for example) and if mixups like SHAD are implemented well, if you're not a rushdown character, she's going to be pretty hard to approach safely. Her top tier matchups are still pretty sketchy (Mario, Sheik and Pika come to mind), but if she continues to get frame data and hitbox buffs I could see her standing her ground

-1 With the evolving meta and bad MUs arising (MK and Ryu come to mind) I can't really see Mario holding up in Top 5 in the future, let alone Top 10. Top 15 sounds more ideal, it's just his kit is too basic to really hold any ground in the advancing top level meta when his approach options and midrange game continue to get exploited (the rise of many Fox players especially comes to mind, since he exploits this pretty well). Good character who does really well atm, but far too overrated. Only way I can see people advancing his meta is if people continue to mess with his combo game more (dair>upsmash is a new thing) or use SHAD mixups/punishes more.

Really don't wanna be the lame guy here, but you're only able to do one vote this round. I agree with a lot of what you said though, especially about Kirby and Samus.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Reminds me of Brawl Game and Watch (along with ROB and Ike to an extent, since they're mainly held back by their abysmal matchups against Meta Knight). If he didn't get destroyed by 4 of the best characters in the game and lose to almost everyone else above (the remaining ones are even), he would be a lot better than 16th.

Back to Lucario though, I believe he's still a great character.

Oh, no doubt about that. It's just that Sheik is probably his only good matchup in the high tiers. He does get slightly better with customs, but without them he's going to be getting wrecked by Marios and Rosalinas and Foxes, etc. His flaws are too apparent, mainly his reliance on Aura to kill and his abysmal frame data and speed in general.

 

[Bowserboy3]

-1 I understand MikeKirby is placing well with him at regionals, but once people figure out how to lame Kirby out in neutral, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. His reward for getting in also isn't nearly that great past low/mid percent, so he's forced to throw out pokes for the remainder of the stock, which is hard to do when dealing with his mediocre neutral, given he has trouble closing the gap well because of his terrible midrange, average run speed, and slow air game. He could probably use some frame data buffs to his air game if he wants to move up.

+1 Shield and patch changes has helped her out a ton, giving her more viable tools in neutral (dtilt, nair, utilt for example) and if mixups like SHAD are implemented well, if you're not a rushdown character, she's going to be pretty hard to approach safely. Her top tier matchups are still pretty sketchy (Mario, Sheik and Pika come to mind), but if she continues to get frame data and hitbox buffs I could see her standing her ground

-1 With the evolving meta and bad MUs arising (MK and Ryu come to mind) I can't really see Mario holding up in Top 5 in the future, let alone Top 10. Top 15 sounds more ideal, it's just his kit is too basic to really hold any ground in the advancing top level meta when his approach options and midrange game continue to get exploited (the rise of many Fox players especially comes to mind, since he exploits this pretty well). Good character who does really well atm, but far too overrated. Only way I can see people advancing his meta is if people continue to mess with his combo game more (dair>upsmash is a new thing) or use SHAD mixups/punishes more.

Please remember you can only make 1 vote this round, and the obvious choice is to keep that Samus vote, I like you for that.

Joking aside, its up to you who you want to use your vote on. But to add, you are being way too harsh on Mario. It's obvious how good Mario is if you take a look at a combination of his frame data, matchups and results. Certainly within the top 10. And Samus is a good character, I am glad to see somebody who is looking at her in a positive light. Samus does struggle a bit against the top tiers, mainly the top 3, but she has some really good matchups against the higher tiered characters, such as DK, Peach, Luigi, Ness, Ike etc, most of which are in Samus's favour.

 

[MarioMeteor]

This is why Sakurai has to BUFF THE PUFF!

please ;-;

Preach, my man, preach. Hopefully a patch comes after the Direct to fix this first-world problem. Her Jigglyness is not getting the respect she deserves. And plus, it'll be hilarious to see everybody frantically change their votes.

I still think it's bull**** that everyone's voting her down, though.

 

[Xandercosm]

-1 With the evolving meta and bad MUs arising (MK and Ryu come to mind) I can't really see Mario holding up in Top 5 in the future, let alone Top 10. Top 15 sounds more ideal, it's just his kit is too basic to really hold any ground in the advancing top level meta when his approach options and midrange game continue to get exploited (the rise of many Fox players especially comes to mind, since he exploits this pretty well). Good character who does really well atm, but far too overrated. Only way I can see people advancing his meta is if people continue to mess with his combo game more (dair>upsmash is a new thing) or use SHAD mixups/punishes more. Oh hey, this sounds like Mario's meta in literally every other Smash game! lol

This is absolutely hilarious. Mario would NEVER in million years be anything other than top 10, if that. Your reasoning is incredibly flawed and is so obviously coming from someone who knows NOTHING about the character. Amazing frame data, great combos, good edge-gaurding, heavy punishes, and basically all his moves are super safe. You clearly have never played Mario or watched any videos of him. Anyway, you would make a great comedian.

 

[Deleted member]

Preach, my man, preach. Hopefully a patch comes after the Direct to fix this first-world problem. Her Jigglyness is not getting the respect she deserves. And plus, it'll be hilarious to see everybody frantically change their votes.

I still think it's bull**** that everyone's voting her down, though.

It's not BS. She's legitimately garbage. Unless she gets her very critical issues addressed she's definitely staying low. Even as a Dedede main I still have the humility to admit he's pretty bad, it's why I ain't even mad at people downvoting him at this point.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

This is absolutely hilarious. Mario would NEVER in million years be anything other than top 10, if that. Your reasoning is incredibly flawed and is so obviously coming from someone who knows NOTHING about the character. Amazing frame data, great combos, good edge-gaurding, heavy punishes, and basically all his moves are super safe. You clearly have never played Mario or watched any videos of him. Anyway, you would make a great comedian.

Damn straight
I just picked mario up because of anti vs zero

 

[MarioMeteor]

It's not BS. She's legitimately garbage. Unless she gets her very critical issues addressed she's definitely staying low.

She will be staying low, but where she is fine. Hell, she could be a little bit higher. There are too many characters worse than Jigglypuff for her to be as bad as some are saying. You've witnessed firsthand the might of Jiggly by Yours Truly, I would expect you to get it.

 

[PKMudkip]

-1 he just doesn't seem top tier. He doesn't have lots of representation except for ESAM. I think the only reason he is still top tier is for the fact that Sakurai has barely touched him and he is unexplored so people can't adjust to him like early Ness in 64. He is top 10 without a doubt, but not top 5. I think with more time passing in the meta game he will eventually drop.

 

[KenMeister]

-1 he just doesn't seem top tier. He doesn't have lots of representation except for ESAM. I think the only reason he is still top tier is for the fact that Sakurai has barely touched him and he is unexplored so people can't adjust to him like early Ness in 64. He is top 10 without a doubt, but not top 5. I think with more time passing in the meta game he will eventually drop.

Nah, Pika is definitely a Top 5 contender, albeit at the bottom of Top 5 anyway. You can't deny his great counterpick usage vs. characters like ZSS, his decent MU vs. Sheik (even probably), and the fact he doesn't really lose any MUs at all except for maybe Diddy (at worst goes even with most characters). Pre-patch Luigi being out of the picture has helped him alot, and I only expect his meta to continue to grow from there. His neutral and disadvantage is too good to ignore in comparison to other top tiers.