Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Deleted member 269706]

+
+
+

 

[LordFluffy]

-1
+
+

 

[gamegalaxy64]

Yoshi +1
Mii Brawler +1
Captain Falcon +1

 

[Macchiato]

+
+
+

 

[energonkid]

+
+
-

 

[555mars]

I think the problem with this tier list is that if a character (say, Yoshi) somehow makes it to top tier, they'll inevitably be downvoted to hell and absolutely tank. Sure, they'll only fall one tier list, but the fact is that them being up there causes a major imbalance on the building of this tier list. Like, say, Yoshi in this list. He's a good character, just he's not quite S Tier worthy and should definitely drop one, if not two tiers. So, he gets downvoted to hell.

I know this idea has been shot down before, but S Tier really should be just Diddy and Sheik. I know it's biased towards these two characters, but seriously, they're clearly the best two characters by a mile. Besides, most of the problems have been caused by other characters making it up to the top tier, where they clearly don't belong. So just lock Diddy and Sheik as the top tier. Seriously. It would make a much more balanced list if you did.

Make me proud, TC.

 

[Browny]

I dont believe so, this system is like a feedback loop. The higher a character rises, the faster they fall until they stabilise. Like what happened with Lucina. She dropped slowly, every week getting lower as people voted marth higher until suddenly people realised 'holy crap, Lucina is bottom 3, lets fix that' and she gets a huge boost. It often takes these dramatic turns to actually focus peoples attention on characters.

Lets face it, the characters that get the most votes by far are the higher tier characters because they are considerably easier to vote for as we see them often on stream. People dont vote on characters like Bowser Jr often because we have no idea if hes closer to diddy or closer to mii swordfighter on the list.

Every so often this happens when a character gets too high or too low before getting boosted/sunk hard before they stabilise again.

I get that it is not ideal, but I can't think of a way to avoid this.

As for Diddy and Sheik, I know. Personally though, I dont see Sheik in the same tier as Diddy. I havent seen anywhere near enough results from her to support her being high tier. I have seen WAY MORE luigi results than I have sheik results. Heres the thing; naturally competitive players are going to tend towards the best characters that win more. This isnt saying that those characters will have better results, I am saying that the players who have the capability to win tournaments, will choose higher tier characters. Why is it then that Sheik has such poor representation at top level? If she is actually the second best character, why arent more pros using her? I dont want any nonsense about her being 'hard to use' because sheik has always been a very easy character to use and lets be real, top level smash 4 is not 'hard' to use the characters, its all about tactics.

I do not want to have a rule for diddy and sheik and a rule for every other character, consistency is important.

 

[555mars]

@ Browny Umebura12: First place solo Sheik, Third Place Sheik / Luigi Main, Fifth Place Sheik Secondary
Apex 2015: Third Place solo Sheik, Fifth Place solo Sheik
Smash Attack 3: Second Place solo Sheik, Third Place Sheik / Diddy Main
Smash 4-Ever 10: Second Place solo Sheik, Fifth Place solo Sheik
Final Battle: Fourth Place solo Sheik.

So, in the last five major tournaments, at least one solo Sheik main has placed in the top four, and barring Final Battle, there have been at least two Sheiks in the top 5. Then you look at, say, Melee. Which characters can consistently do this there? Fox, Falco, Marth. All mainstays in the top tier. And do you ever see someone like Marth not in the top tier? Of course not, because he clearly has the tournament showings to belong there.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Sheik really is THAT good. He is more than deserving of being top tier, and even though it would go against "consistency", it would help make a better list. And which of those two is more important? I've gotta say the latter.

 

[Yikarur]

The Problem is that once a character is on the top he inevitable drops in the next list because these characters will receive downvotes with no upvotes because they are on the top already.
To avoid this problem you should create a tolerance mark for the Top and Bottom. Like the Characters in the highest tier cannot drop a tier unless he gets X votes, while X is an arbitrary number you choose based on the number of votes you expect overall. Like "need 6 - to drop" or less if you don't expect much activity.

 

[Browny]

@ Browny Umebura12: First place solo Sheik, Third Place Sheik / Luigi Main, Fifth Place Sheik Secondary
Apex 2015: Third Place solo Sheik, Fifth Place solo Sheik
Smash Attack 3: Second Place solo Sheik, Third Place Sheik / Diddy Main
Smash 4-Ever 10: Second Place solo Sheik, Fifth Place solo Sheik
Final Battle: Fourth Place solo Sheik.

So, in the last five major tournaments, at least one solo Sheik main has placed in the top four, and barring Final Battle, there have been at least two Sheiks in the top 5. Then you look at, say, Melee. Which characters can consistently do this there? Fox, Falco, Marth. All mainstays in the top tier. And do you ever see someone like Marth not in the top tier? Of course not, because he clearly has the tournament showings to belong there.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Sheik really is THAT good. He is more than deserving of being top tier, and even though it would go against "consistency", it would help make a better list. And which of those two is more important? I've gotta say the latter.

Do you have results there? Id like to see it.

I would like to see how Sheik compares to the next highest placing characters across those 5 tournaments. If for example, there is a ZSS/Rosa/Ness which is taking a bunch of 2nd and 3rd places among the Sheik placings, it would invalidate it.

I think it is clear that Diddy is a cut above the rest, but for me to set a cut off for Sheik to join him above the rest I want to see... at least 50% higher placings than the 3rd highest. I'll figure out some equation to handle it. Also, it is important for me to find out if different people are pulling the results.

@ Yikarur I have thought about that idea for a long time but as you say, it was arbitrary, I couldnt figure out a way to do it without it seeming random so it was easier to not do anything at all. I would feel quite bad if say, one top tier character got -5 votes and one got -6 which sends them down a tier, it wouldnt seem right.

 

[Liduri]

+1

+1

+1

Dont understand Fox and mii over these 3

 

[pershona]

+1
+1
-1

 

[16bit]

+1
+1
-1

 

[salaboB]

@ Yikarur I have thought about that idea for a long time but as you say, it was arbitrary, I couldnt figure out a way to do it without it seeming random so it was easier to not do anything at all. I would feel quite bad if say, one top tier character got -5 votes and one got -6 which sends them down a tier, it wouldnt seem right.

It seems to me (I could be wrong) that having appropriately short voting periods will take care of this -- people will settle into their tiers at all levels, then the voting ends and that tier list is locked.

Sure, there will be some misplacements compared to if things were controlled more, but there may also be better accuracy since people can correct if they see a top tier they like drop out of the top.

And given the nature of the tier lists, if one character shifts incorrectly by a surge of votes right at the end of one, there's always the next tier list for that to be corrected on.

(Edit: I guess it depends on if next time you just bring over the existing votes or if you reset everyone to flat. Maybe a semi-flattening would work best -- group everyone into batches and assign initial starting votes to each batch, then there's less effort getting them where they need to go but reason for +'ing even the top characters)

 

[Berrial]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Doruge]

I know this idea has been shot down before, but S Tier really should be just Diddy, Sheik and Mii Brawler.

Fixed

 

[Yikarur]

@ Yikarur I have thought about that idea for a long time but as you say, it was arbitrary, I couldnt figure out a way to do it without it seeming random so it was easier to not do anything at all. I would feel quite bad if say, one top tier character got -5 votes and one got -6 which sends them down a tier, it wouldnt seem right.

Thats why you do math. Everything is arbitrary but Systems can be reasoned logically.
If you don't like absolute numbers you can create yourself a relative number.

Example:
If 20% of all voters downvote one of the highest tier character then a putting him in a lower tier would be appropriate.
This way you have a consistent rule and a clear cut. This way this list can advance to a better state in my opinion. How the list shifts at the moment you'll never get to a finishing point because of reasons I've already stated.

Saying "-5 and -6 made the difference" is natural. You always have to create a clear cut. You're rule "if one character has more votes in one direction it will be moved in that tier" can create similar situation where 1 vote makes the difference.

 

[vegeta18]

+1 diddy kong
+1 marth

 

[Equin0x]

+1 Luigi
+1 Diddy
-1 Yoshi

 

[Sneether]

+1 Wario
+1 Falco

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

+1 Luigi
+1 Diddy
-1 Yoshi
+1 Dedede
+1 Captain Falcon

It's 3 votes now, not 5

 

[Browny]

Thats why you do math. Everything is arbitrary but Systems can be reasoned logically.
If you don't like absolute numbers you can create yourself a relative number.

Example:
If 20% of all voters downvote one of the highest tier character then a putting him in a lower tier would be appropriate.
This way you have a consistent rule and a clear cut. This way this list can advance to a better state in my opinion. How the list shifts at the moment you'll never get to a finishing point because of reasons I've already stated.

Saying "-5 and -6 made the difference" is natural. You always have to create a clear cut. You're rule "if one character has more votes in one direction it will be moved in that tier" can create similar situation where 1 vote makes the difference.

Fair enough idea and as I said earlier in the thread, once I finish V1.0 of this thread I dont mind if someone takes over and runs it how they want, your idea is sound.

I would consider implementing if I wasnt actually getting to the finishing point, which will be absolute.

In 2 more updates the next phase involves voting on characters within tiers which will be as clear cut as you can get, higher votes = higher placement. Thats the business end of making this list. Every update from now has been dealing with the various character hype cycles and hoping it kind of stagnates. Like, imagine if a tier list was made after will beat m2k. DK might find himself in high tier but with hardly any results since showing DK is high tier, he falls back down to a more steady position.

In a way, this long initial voting period is averaging out the last 3 or so months of character viability impressions. Characters are still feeling the effects of early hype/unhype cycles like when Luigi shot up or G&W tanked, the next phase will make things more set in stone though.

 

[McCadi]

-1

-1

+1

 

[Equin0x]

It's 3 votes now, not 5

Welp, my bad. I'll edit it.

 

[FooltheFlames]

+1

+1

-1

 

[Xyrohip]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Aaryk]

+
+
-

 

[Bob da Bob]

+
+
-

I'm not trying to be biased but I honestly do think that Bowser Jr. and Little Mac are much better than their current positions on the tier list, they both just have potential not yet seen by many people.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

+ Diddy
- Jigglypuff
- Brawler

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

+1 Marth
+1 Greninja
+1 Lucina

 

[ShortcutButton]

So the miis... they are all 1111 moves; no equipment?

 

[Forty4]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Runic_SSB]

So the miis... they are all 1111 moves; no equipment?

Customs yes, equipment no.

 

[JmacAttack]

+1 Ganon
-1 Yoshi
-1 Sonic

 

[Eisen]

+ : Seen a lot of potential in him lately. His combos are so good, and in the air he just seems to wreck everyone.
+: Underrated, imo.
+: Explain to me how this character isn't top tier?

 

[Drgoold]

Pikachu +1
Ness +1
Shulk +1
Link -1
Yoshi -1

 

[JmacAttack]

Pikachu +1
Ness +1
Shulk +1
Link -1
Yoshi -1

Only get 3 votes now, bro.

+ : Seen a lot of potential in him lately. His combos are so good, and in the air he just seems to wreck everyone.
+: Underrated, imo.
+: Explain to me how this character isn't top tier?

Captain Falcon is probably the most overrated character in the game. He is played by everyone and he still never wins any tournaments. Many, many characters beat him in the air, and his recovery is Ganon-tier, and unlike Ganon, he doesn't get any better at recovering with customs. Still high-tier because he has a great dashgrab and good grab reward, but of all the high tiers, he's the closest one to dropping a tier.

Fox is good, but he's right where he should be. He's EXTREMELY light, while at the same time being ridiculously easy to combo. He has a fantastic punish game and air game though, and his recovery is top tier.

ROB is decent, but he's a huge target, his recovery is extremely slow and predictable, and his aerials have laggy startups. Not to mention, his downthrow to up air is escapable at any percent if the opponent DIs at all. His melee game is only so-so. His main projectile can also be used against him, and his kill power is mediocre.

 

[aquaticpineapples]

+
+
-

 

[NebulaGX]

+1 Greninja
-1 Jigglypuff

 

[aquaticpineapples]

Can someone explain what the problem with G&W is? He's got a large variety of moves and seems way better than a laggy heavyweight like Dedede and Bowser.