Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[A10theHero]

Well idk what Baiting is so I can't do that

Baiting is when you trick your opponent into putting him/herself in a vulnerable position. You might give the illusion of committing to an attack and then when your opponent attempts to shield/punish your attack, you spring for a grab or an attack and punish them instead. A specific example with Kirby is his hup cancelling. It might look like you're going to use his dair, so your opponent will try to shield it, but once it cancels, you can go for the grab and punish.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well idk what Baiting is so I can't do that

This is a good explaination by A10theHero

Baiting is when you trick your opponent into putting him/herself in a vulnerable position. You might give the illusion of committing to an attack and then when your opponent attempts to shield/punish your attack, you spring for a grab or an attack and punish them instead. A specific example with Kirby is his hup cancelling. It might look like you're going to use his dair, so your opponent will try to shield it, but once it cancels, you can go for the grab and punish.

But another thing to point out is to not to keep using the same thing to bait all the time, because then you become predictable, which in turn again Ganon can punish you for. Be sure to do other things such as Bair's to approach/fade out. This way you can force Ganon to come to you.

I thought I would mention this anyway, but Ganon struggles against projectiles, as he has no real way to deal with them. Though you don't appear to use character with projectiles, it might be a good idea to pick one up specifically for that matchup if it is giving you trouble. Notable characters that seem to give Ganon trouble include Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Samus etc. I also like a bit of disjoint when fighting troublesome characters like Ganon, so characters with swords may help you a bit too. In this case, Link and Toon Link may be a good choice to start.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is a good explaination by A10theHero

But another thing to point out is to not to keep using the same thing to bait all the time, because then you become predictable, which in turn again Ganon can punish you for. Be sure to do other things such as Bair's to approach/fade out. This way you can force Ganon to come to you.

I thought I would mention this anyway, but Ganon struggles against projectiles, as he has no real way to deal with them. Though you don't appear to use character with projectiles, it might be a good idea to pick one up specifically for that matchup if it is giving you trouble. Notable characters that seem to give Ganon trouble include Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Samus etc. I also like a bit of disjoint when fighting troublesome characters like Ganon, so characters with swords may help you a bit too. In this case, Link and Toon Link may be a good choice to start.

I know he struggles aganist projectiles, but I've tried Pac-Man and Duck Hunt before and neither make a differance since Ganon never dies, and the Links are two of my worst characters, and two of my least favorite characters, so that would be suicide essentially.

Also, for swordfighters, who do you consider swordfighters? because people have differant opinions on this.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I know he struggles aganist projectiles, but I've tried Pac-Man and Duck Hunt before and neither make a differance since Ganon never dies, and the Links are two of my worst characters, and two of my least favorite characters, so that would be suicide essentially.

Also, for swordfighters, who do you consider swordfighters? because people have differant opinions on this.

Well to me, swordfighters are characters that wield some form of disjointed blade. Taking that into account, all the swordfighters from my stance are Link, Toon Link, Meta Knight, Marth, Roy, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, Mii Sword, eventually Cloud, and to a lesser extent, Pit and Dark Pit.

Of these, Link, Toon Link, Robin, Pit, Dark Pit, Mii Sword and potentially Cloud have some sort of projectile, so these might be good places to start.

But in regard to your first comment, Pac Man is incredibly hard to use correctly, and Duck Hunt doesn't have the best time killing.

Honestly, I don't know what else to say. I don't mean to sound mean but Ganon really isn't that hard to bait out. Ganon is good when he does actually get in, and where as it might take just 6 attacks to finish a heavier character off, it might only take 4 or so to finish lighter characters like the ones you main off. It's just a matchup problem, so that does not mean he should be just removed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well I'm garbage with every character you mentioned as a starter so..........

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well I'm garbage with every character you mentioned as a starter so..........

Then practice! Nobody picks up a character and instantly becomes a god with them. It takes time. Research your characters, learn their frame data, combos, strengths, weaknesses etc.

And most importantly, only focus seriously and competitively on a few characters. I enjoy using lots of characters in this game. In fact, I can use the majority of the cast at a basic level. However, I specifically focus 4 characters, being ,,and . Trying to use too many characters can do more harm than good. These 4 characters seem to cover all of the characters in the game one way or another for me. For example. I struggle against Meta Knight as Rosalina, so I use Mario who has an easier time with the matchup. While Samus might struggle against Mario, Marth has a better time there. It works like this. I'm not saying pick characters to beat every character in the game (it just so happens that my four seem to cover themselves nicely). What I am saying is pick a handful of characters, and focus just on those at a serious level. Then you can be really good with a few characters, and you can learn which of them is better at different matchups. If you struggle against Ganon, then one of the characters you aught to practice should be a counter to him.

 

[Xandercosm]

It seems like you're starting from the competitive ground-floor. Maybe you should watch/read some strategy guides on the characters you like and, yeah, keep practicing. I think it's good to watch looots of videos of your favorite character because it gets you motivated to use some of the strategies employed by the player you are watching and it's just fun. Plus, try to pick only a couple characters to get really good at. If you play, like, half the cast, you aren't going to get a deeper understanding of any of them.

 

[Deleted member]

Now that topic has been brought up, I feel like the reason I've been doing so poorly is because I try to juggle between so many characters. This is a flaw for me that's persisted through all the Smash games (hell, I can't even decide on a main in Project M at all OR a co-main in Smash 4) and I'm definitely gonna rectify that. I usually focus on playing in Smash 4 and he's definitely my best character, though I really wanna get good with at the moment. I'll be dedicating my time to Yoshi for the time being and see how that goes considering I have a Yoshi in Brawl and PM.

 

[DarkK]

While in the topic of , I think he should be updated to have some of his custom moves as the default moveset, since his custom moves improve him greatly and help him de-clone from even more.

Neutral B: Warlock Blade. The blade from Twilight princess, and to shut the people who keep crying that Ganon should use a sword up. It comes out faster than Warlock Punch, has a tipper mechanic and could give Ganon a spacing option, since it also keeps the super armor.

Side B: Flame Choke. It references Twilight Princess and is the best Side B Ganon has out of the 3.

Up B: Dark Fists. Has super armor on start up and, if the opponent fails to kill Ganon and gets hit by Dark Fists, it's a guaranteed kill at around 100% or so.

Down B: Wizard's Dropkick. Excellent approach option for Ganon, can be used off-stage as edgeguarding, and gives Ganon a little combo from dthrow.


Also I dunno, change his fsmash to some sort of sword slash to make him use his sword more or something.

 

[aεrgiα]

Well I'm garbage with every character you mentioned as a starter so..........

well, it doesnt have to be swordies, any character that can keep him out has a field day, good combo chars also have fun vs ganon since he doesnt really have much to get out of "combos". other chars i can suggest are: pika(thunderjolt keeps him out easily, pika can combo ganon easily, doesnt have to worry as much about ganons pretty strong edgeguard game and quick attack shenaningans in general. mario has fireball to force ganon to approach, can combo him for days, can gimp ganon with his cape pretty well(and fludd destroys ganon). dedede as youve said does pretty well against ganon as hes heavy so he dies later than most chars, can space ganon out reasonably well with his disjoints, gordos can harras ganon, but be carefull all of his moves do reflect gordos so dont spam them. lucas is light but has disjoints, his throw game is phenomenal, zair and pk fire make ganons life hell, but be careful, if u wiff a grab u are gonna pay dearly for it. i would second pit, hes got disjoints, a decent combo game, an amazing projectile, which lets him SAFELY gimp ganon and hes a good character to be able to play in general, aka a good secondary, i know hes awkward to play at first but spend a bit of time with him and it should be fine. i could go on but those are the furst chars that come to mind

 

[HerpFish]

Bowser Jr. works out pretty well for fighting Ganon. Mechakoopas force the opponent into an unsafe approach so you can punish it with some of the crazy disjoints he has, and Ganon is heavy. If you can get side-b to connect, the up-air strings can be deadly. Then there are mechakoopa gimps. Just drop one off of the ledge while they recover and taste sweet victory.

 

[Routa]

*wise words*

Anyways Bowserboy3 got it pretty much right, but I have just 1 thing. Both MK and Mii Swordfighter aren't what we call a Swordfighters ( very fundamental based character that relies on heavy spacing and punish game and has a lot of disjointed moves and lack projectiles). What MK and Mii Swordfighter are... Well they belong to Brawler archetype (fast combo/string oriented character that enjoys to be on his foe's face all the time and doesn't give any room for hie foe to breath). Other this archetype characters are Faptain, Mii Brawler and Diddy.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I know he struggles aganist projectiles, but I've tried Pac-Man and Duck Hunt before and neither make a differance since Ganon never dies, and the Links are two of my worst characters, and two of my least favorite characters, so that would be suicide essentially.

Also, for swordfighters, who do you consider swordfighters? because people have differant opinions on this.

Quick point.

DH does NOT do well as a ganon CP. The lack of decent kill power and options makes It very hard for him to close stocks on any stage other than FD.

As for pacman, he works slightly better against us but has a high skill level needed to prevent ganon reaching DA/dtilt range, since once ganon is there a good player will get a string or outright kill.

The main problem against ganon that most people seem to underestimate just how high his damage output is. Late DA practically guarantees a uair, which puts ganon in either of two states. 1. Juggling. He's great at this, with disjointed uair and Sakurai angles of knockback allowing for a degree of knowledge of where the opponent will end up. Or the second state, which is with the opponent offstage. Again, with powerful spikes, disjoints and huge KB on almost all of this aerials, this is a highly dangerous place for the opponent to be in. In the event you end up offstage, be very careful with your recovery since with walkoff fair, Tipmans, ledgetrump bair, FF Nair and of course his dreaded spikes with dair and aerial wizkick will almost always net a kill on someone who either wasted their jumps or had bad positioning.

Tl;dr: be aware of his range, recover carefully and learn to gimp him before he gimps you.

 

[DMWN]

I disagree with R.O.B.'s final placement, but maybe Eric could change my mind.

 

[Xandercosm]

I disagree with R.O.B.'s final placement, but maybe Eric could change my mind.

You want him higher or lower?

 

[Vyseskies]

R.O.B and Link definitelly should be higher imo

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I just posted a reddit thread for this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3t36bw/smashboards_tier_list_v2_v108112_thoughts/

 

[mjmannella]

1+ Ganondorf
1+ King Dedede
1+ Bowser

 

[Munomario777]

1+ Ganondorf
1+ King Dedede
1+ Bowser

The voting ended already.

 

[lbrasz44]

I feel like the main issue with the tier aside from the odd placement is that Marth and Lucina have no way of being consistently close with each other, when its obvious there isn't too much of a disparity between each other. They were both in tier 5, but the last round split them up again due to only having one vote to spare (and lol at using it on Lucina when you could pick Marth). So we should probably take some time when this starts up again to determine how they should be tethered together. Not to the extent of the Pits but determining for example that Lucina should always remain 3 spots behind Marth, so when people vote for Marth and he moves, Lucina would follow suitably and vice versa.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I feel like the main issue with the tier aside from the odd placement is that Marth and Lucina have no way of being consistently close with each other, when its obvious there isn't too much of a disparity between each other. They were both in tier 5, but the last round split them up again due to only having one vote to spare (and lol at using it on Lucina when you could pick Marth). So we should probably take some time when this starts up again to determine how they should be tethered together. Not to the extent of the Pits but determining for example that Lucina should always remain 3 spots behind Marth, so when people vote for Marth and he moves, Lucina would follow suitably and vice versa.

I've said time and time again that I think Lucina should be close to Marth, in a gap of no more than 2 spaces. I do think Marth should be higher, due to a number of things, which can include a slightly larger playerbase and how he can finish stocks way earlier.

Also, this was hype! What is this, Brawl? Marth and Falco in Grand Finals? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgQ2TtoNEc

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've said time and time again that I think Lucina should be close to Marth, in a gap of no more than 2 spaces. I do think Marth should be higher, due to a number of things, which can include a slightly larger playerbase and how he can finish stocks way earlier.

Also, this was hype! What is this, Brawl? Marth and Falco in Grand Finals? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgQ2TtoNEc

inb4 melee fan comes on here and says "Yes smash 4 is brawl"

 

[aεrgiα]

I've said time and time again that I think Lucina should be close to Marth, in a gap of no more than 2 spaces. I do think Marth should be higher, due to a number of things, which can include a slightly larger playerbase and how he can finish stocks way earlier.

Also, this was hype! What is this, Brawl? Marth and Falco in Grand Finals? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgQ2TtoNEc

that last kill tho!! but that just goes to show how reasonably close the tiers in this game are in terms of viability, whilst there is a noticeable difference in strength, it doesnt mean mid tiers cant win a tournament(and in this case 2 mid tiers in gf!). about lucina, i think she in an awkward position atm, marth is perceived as better, so most potential lucina players pick marth when it comes to tournament play, and even if they want a more lenient character(where u dont have to worry about spacing as much) then most people would go roy, so the only people even giving lucina a chance are "character loyalists" (for lack of a better term )

 

[Bowserboy3]

that last kill tho!! but that just goes to show how reasonably close the tiers in this game are in terms of viability, whilst there is a noticeable difference in strength, it doesnt mean mid tiers cant win a tournament(and in this case 2 mid tiers in gf!). about lucina, i think she in an awkward position atm, marth is perceived as better, so most potential lucina players pick marth when it comes to tournament play, and even if they want a more lenient character(where u dont have to worry about spacing as much) then most people would go roy, so the only people even giving lucina a chance are "character loyalists" (for lack of a better term )

Lucina is still good in her own right, which a lot of people seem to dismiss. She still has all the same things as Marth really, but she doesn't have the potential to kill early, and her off stage gimp game can be slightly less effective due to no tippers (as remember, tippers = more damage, which = more knockback and hitstun, which can seal some stocks out way before Lucina can) but again, it is virtually the same as Marth's, which is considered one of the best in the game. Lucina just has to work a bit harder for it. Of course it is all up to opinion, but there is no way Lucina is that far away from Marth.

In fact, I uploaded a scrubby video of my playing Marth against one of my friends the other day (I was trying to focus on movement), but there is an example of a kill in it where Marth's tipper killed when Lucina couldn't have. Here is the video if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PuZ-XlyZT8 and the kill I was on about is at 0:47.

 

[Xandercosm]

I've said time and time again that I think Lucina should be close to Marth, in a gap of no more than 2 spaces. I do think Marth should be higher, due to a number of things, which can include a slightly larger playerbase and how he can finish stocks way earlier.

Also, this was hype! What is this, Brawl? Marth and Falco in Grand Finals? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgQ2TtoNEc

Best set I've ever watched. Hands down.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Best set I've ever watched. Hands down.

Aside from this featuring one of my characters, its great to see the lesser used characters getting some rep.

And it's one of my favourite sets, along with ZeRo vs Nairo MLG, ZeRo vs Seagull Joe, Trela vs Nairo and Mr R vs Ally. These are all great sets.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There is literally no reason for Diddy not to be in Tier 1

 

[aεrgiα]

Lucina is still good in her own right, which a lot of people seem to dismiss. She still has all the same things as Marth really, but she doesn't have the potential to kill early, and her off stage gimp game can be slightly less effective due to no tippers (as remember, tippers = more damage, which = more knockback and hitstun, which can seal some stocks out way before Lucina can) but again, it is virtually the same as Marth's, which is considered one of the best in the game. Lucina just has to work a bit harder for it. Of course it is all up to opinion, but there is no way Lucina is that far away from Marth.

In fact, I uploaded a scrubby video of my playing Marth against one of my friends the other day (I was trying to focus on movement), but there is an example of a kill in it where Marth's tipper killed when Lucina couldn't have. Here is the video if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PuZ-XlyZT8 and the kill I was on about is at 0:47.

i agree that the two arent that far apart, im just saying she is seen as bad because people dont give her a chance labeling her as a worse marth, which she may be, but that doesnt make her bad, similar to doc. but ive said my piece on the stupidity of such logic already:/

also that kill was dope, was that a read, or did u just want to throw out a hitbox to cover yourself?

 

[Bowserboy3]

i agree that the two arent that far apart, im just saying she is seen as bad because people dont give her a chance labeling her as a worse marth, which she may be, but that doesnt make her bad, similar to doc. but ive said my piece on the stupidity of such logic already:/

also that kill was dope, was that a read, or did u just want to throw out a hitbox to cover yourself?

Well I was practicing movement skills in that game, and it was an attempt at a wavebounce. Not perfect, but a wavebounce non the less

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I just posted a reddit thread for this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3t36bw/smashboards_tier_list_v2_v108112_thoughts/

Just read through some of the comments and I realized, how is mario 1st in t2. Sonic had WAYYYYY more people.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wow, I just played against Mr R from the Netherlands. I randomly got matched with him on FG. He was Falcon, I was Samus, and I won. My play was actually pretty shoddy, I was choking up, but I somehow won it.

I saved the replay, I might upload it if anybody is interested in seeing it? I lost the 2 games after, but it was super hype to play against somebody like him.

 

[Furret24]

Wow, I just played against Mr R from the Netherlands. I randomly got matched with him on FG. He was Falcon, I was Samus, and I won. My play was super bad, I was choking up, but I somehow won it. He quit afterwards xD

I saved the replay, I might upload it if anybody is interested in seeing it?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hey, I enjoyed that game, let me feel special for a bit, k?

 

[NEStalgia314]

While in the topic of , I think he should be updated to have some of his custom moves as the default moveset, since his custom moves improve him greatly and help him de-clone from even more.

Neutral B: Warlock Blade. The blade from Twilight princess, and to shut the people who keep crying that Ganon should use a sword up. It comes out faster than Warlock Punch, has a tipper mechanic and could give Ganon a spacing option, since it also keeps the super armor.

Side B: Flame Choke. It references Twilight Princess and is the best Side B Ganon has out of the 3.

Up B: Dark Fists. Has super armor on start up and, if the opponent fails to kill Ganon and gets hit by Dark Fists, it's a guaranteed kill at around 100% or so.

Down B: Wizard's Dropkick. Excellent approach option for Ganon, can be used off-stage as edgeguarding, and gives Ganon a little combo from dthrow.


Also I dunno, change his fsmash to some sort of sword slash to make him use his sword more or something.

This! Would be nice for Ganon to have access to his customs. It's unfortunate to have a neutral special that is only used for disrespect and a "please gimp me" up special. This, I feel, along with a frame overhaul would really help Ganon with some of his worst matchups.

Wizard's Dropkick would especially help against characters like Ness and Duck Hunt where mobility with Ganon is ludicrously hard, imo.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This! Would be nice for Ganon to have access to his customs. It's unfortunate to have a neutral special that is only used for disrespect and a "please gimp me" up special. This, I feel, along with a frame overhaul would really help Ganon with some of his worst matchups.

Wizard's Dropkick would especially help against characters like Ness and Duck Hunt where mobility with Ganon is ludicrously hard, imo.

Ganon would certainly be much more viable with a moveset like this. He would still have issues such as being able to be comboed easily, but his recovery would be a bit nicer. Ganon has decreased air speed this time around, so that super armor on his Up B would be very nice.

 

[Furret24]

Hey, I enjoyed that game, let me feel special for a bit, k?

I know, I'd like to see your match.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

inb4 melee fan comes on here and says "Yes smash 4 is brawl"

Except that Marth and Falco were also top tier in Melee, so they would be hypocritical.

 

[Deleted member]

R.O.B and Link definitelly should be higher imo

Link really doesn't have the results needed to be higher, but I agree R.O.B. should go up a peg.

 

[Xandercosm]

Wow, I just played against Mr R from the Netherlands. I randomly got matched with him on FG. He was Falcon, I was Samus, and I won. My play was actually pretty shoddy, I was choking up, but I somehow won it.

I saved the replay, I might upload it if anybody is interested in seeing it? I lost the 2 games after, but it was super hype to play against somebody like him.

Please upload the replay. That's awesome, man.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Now I don't play Lucina herself to differentiate enough, but are the differences between her and Marth really enough to have them split up while the Pit duo are put together?