Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Cyclone_]

+ - Has so many good options, and 3 ike's placed in top 32 at BH5
- - I main marth and he is not that good he is high low tier at best ( Roy has so many more options)
+ - Its time to slam

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+ - Has so many good options, and 3 ike's placed in top 32 at BH5
- - I main marth and he is not that good he is high low tier at best ( Roy has so many more options)
+ - Its time to slam

Any character that places in top 32 for any tournament needs to be ranked higher()

 

[Cyclone_]

Any character that places in top 32 for any tournament needs to be ranked higher()

Not all but yea some that are getting better need to (also secondary is he's fine where he is)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Not all but yea some that are getting better need to (also secondary is he's fine where he is)

Those were the only characters I remember seeing during top 32 of Big House(fell asleep alot sadly), so I went with them...Tink as a secondary is never a bad thing

 

[Bedoop]

+
+
-

Time to throw my hat into the ring!

 

[Xandercosm]

The shield nerf made his approach options better, and unlike many people falsely assume, he is not a "bad Mario clone". The only thing he clones about Mario is his frame data, which is good because that plus his power makes him great at killing. His combos and strings are good, and the pill really isn't bad. ("It bounces over opponents", why does that make people think it's 10x worse? :/)

Eh, to me it just seems like there's no point in playing Doc when you can play Mario. It's irrational to cripple yourself when you can play a different character with a similar play style that is way better. The only argument that I can see is that some people like the way Doc looks but other than that he's completely negated by Mario.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Eh, to me it just seems like there's no point in playing Doc when you can play Mario. It's irrational to cripple yourself when you can play a different character with a similar play style that is way better. The only argument that I can see is that some people like the way Doc looks but other than that he's completely negated by Mario.

So you're one of the ignorant people, huh? Doc is not a worse Mario: he's a different character, and you should respect that.

(I just realized that we're both arguing for one of our mains... )

 

[Nessimator]

-1I just don't see what he has going for him that puts him so high. Sure he kills well, but what approaches does he have? What reliable combos does he have? He's good, but not great.
+1He's not too good, but I think he's better than this. A weak approach isn't so bad when you can utilize projectiles. With both projectile and sword disjoints he can wall out most characters pretty well. He also has some good damage output and kill power along with a relatively reliable throw combo.
+1He may struggle with characters that can reflect/absorb projectiles, but other than that he is actually pretty good at zoning effectively in the neutral. He has some very technical combos that need more exploration. Back air and up tilt make sure he doesn't have a killing problem. Overall, I see a lot of zoning and combo potential similar to Pac-man who is pretty high, so why not Mega Man?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Eh, to me it just seems like there's no point in playing Doc when you can play Mario. It's irrational to cripple yourself when you can play a different character with a similar play style that is way better. The only argument that I can see is that some people like the way Doc looks but other than that he's completely negated by Mario.

So you're one of the ignorant people, huh? Doc is not a worse Mario: he's a different character, and you should respect that.

(I just realized that we're both arguing for one of our mains... )

With the vsconversation going on, I think that one Mario can do better against a character than the other. If they and the group were all around types like are, then it'd be a whole different story.

 

[Seige]

-1
Stop there's a reason she's lower, holy ****.
+1
Shield Stun Buff
+1
Just move one more up cmon Pittoo

Honorable:
Stop
Upvoting puffs have no counters but up voting kirbys do. Ok then.
Why would you downvote this
Eh. Up another

P.S. I swear if Lucina ends up higher than Marth there's something wrong.

 

[DarkK]

Eh, to me it just seems like there's no point in playing Doc when you can play Mario. It's irrational to cripple yourself when you can play a different character with a similar play style that is way better. The only argument that I can see is that some people like the way Doc looks but other than that he's completely negated by Mario.

That's like saying no one should play Dark Pit because Pit has 3 advantages over him, or that no one should play Marth because Roy is arguably better (despite Roy being the semi-clone). Characters that are similar to others but with different play styles exist to suit people preferences.

It's like going to Street Fighter and telling people not to play Ken, Sakura, Akuma or even Ryu because Evil Ryu is better. That's not how it works.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

-1
Stop there's a reason she's lower, holy ****.
+1
Shield Stun Buff
+1
Just move one more up cmon Pittoo

Honorable:
Stop
Upvoting puffs have no counters but up voting kirbys do. Ok then.
Why would you downvote this
Eh. Up another

P.S. I swear if Lucina ends up higher than Marth there's something wrong.

Yes to the Pits moving higher

 

[Bowserboy3]

-Jab, up smash, and forward air have trouble connecting, dash attack goes right through the opponent 90% of the time-

-Not low tier-

Here we go again, people quick to point out negatives but know non of the positives... le sigh...

And I don't know how everyone else views the tier list, but personally I view the bottom two tiers as "low tier". Obviously the bottom one is bottom tier, but the one above in my wording would be low tier, so I'll get my point straight. Samus is not bottom tier, she deserves low tier at least.

Well then, what she has:

Alright recovery

Good z-air

Up air can combo, followup into Screw attack, and is good.

Forward KOs fairly early, and it has no bad thing about it,

Charge Shot is pretty much good at everything but getting away from projectiles

Green missile is pretty good too

Advantage aganist Luigi

Terrible Disadvantages:

No jab

Forward air NEVER connects

Dash attack hits on only 1-2 frame(s)

Down Smash is crap

Neutral air was crap for sure, but I think it was buffed this patch iirc? If it wasn't, that sucks too

Pink missile.... well, let's just go with that it isn't in the game

Down special sucks too I believe



You make some good points though, I never knew Up Smash was for Anti-Air or that she has advantages aganist Ness, Peach, and Donkey Kong.

Ok, to be fair to you, you've had a good look at it from both sides, but I'll give you some more info on the disadvantages.

Yes, Jab doesn't link, but why use Jab when you can do Dtilt? Her Dtilt is much better to use in a close range situation as it puts her in a safer position and will actually do shield stun if shielded. I have got to say that Forward Air links nearly every time. Besides, it has a better time linking in this game due to it being the auto link angle. I'm trying to think of a time when it hasn't linked for me, and the only time I can think of is occasionally on a grounded opponent it doesn't link. It's an attack best used in the air. Dash Attack is active for 8 frames, with the sweetspot being active from frame 10-13, and the sourspot being frames 14-18. Both have uses too, as you can still start a combo from them, In fact, if you want to combo into a Screw at high percent, sourspot is your friend. The sweetspot can also kill later on in percent ranges (though it is later on, but usually you don't ever let the opponent's percent get this high before they are dead). Dsmash is indeed crap, I won't even try and argue. The back hit is ok on knockback I suppose, but if I'm honest, the current back hit knockback should be the front hit, and the back hit should have more knockback than that. This move needs a buff, pronto. Sort it Sakurai! Nair was a tough move to use pre patch 1.1.1, but now its a lot easier to land, it's got KO potential, and the sourspot is a bit more powerful (not that you want to be landing it, but its a bit more forgiving if you do land it). The regular Pink Missile isn't so bad. On stage it has uses, good for forcing opponents to jump over and make an unsafe approach, but mainly it's good for off stage harassment (or at least that's what I find it useful for). As they home in, recovering opponents who come in from above will just air dodge it, leaving them open to many moves. UTilt is quite good in this situation as it has good reach, and has a good knockback angle and strong knockback on aerial opponents. Dspecial, Bombs are generally useless for tacking on damage, but they have good uses. Mainly for recovery, it can help get you extra air time. But the big boon for Bombs are the fact that if you do Bomb into Charge Shot, if the opponent shields the bomb, it's an instant shield break.

Yeah, Samus's moves haven't got huge utility like say Sheik's moves (Needles would be a good example, which can be used to tack on damage, force approaches, gimp and edgeguard), but nearly every move Samus uses has a purpose.

Just for the record, I main Rosalina and secondary Mario. Samus is more of a for fun character of mine, so it's not like huge character bias. Character bias for me is Bowser (my favorite character of all time).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also, just in case anybody is thinking of voting up due to his grab invulnerability glitch, Nintendo are releasing a patch, 1.1.2 to fix this issue.

http://www.nintendo-insider.com/201...sed-in-super-smash-bros-version-1-1-2-update/
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html

 

[Xandercosm]

So you're one of the ignorant people, huh? Doc is not a worse Mario: he's a different character, and you should respect that.

(I just realized that we're both arguing for one of our mains... )

I notice you just changed your main to Toon Link.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I notice you just changed your main to Toon Link.

That's because I actually did, not to avoid the argument.

 

[Xandercosm]

That's because I actually did, not to avoid the argument.

Heh. Well, to each their own. I hope ol' Doc serves ya well.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Also, just in case anybody is thinking of voting up due to his grab invulnerability glitch, Nintendo are releasing a patch, 1.1.2 to fix this issue.

http://www.nintendo-insider.com/201...sed-in-super-smash-bros-version-1-1-2-update/
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html

Amen

 

[wedl!!]

Don't pretend Doc has some drastically different playstyle (his playstyle is different, but that's mostly because of how his flaws cripple him to his bait/punish gameplan which doesn't make sense because his punish game is weaker than Mario's) so you can make up reasons that he isn't directly inferior to Mario in every way.

-1
-1
+1

 

[CleanOgre]

Why would you downvote this

This tier list goes by default Miis. This means we are judging Mii Brawler by 1111 50/50 size. Mii Brawler does not have access to Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump. Instead, he gets Soaring Axe Kick and Head-On Assault. He just lost two attacks that helped his recovery and a grab kill confirm that can kill at very low percentage. To add insult to injury, he doesn't have combos since he is default size. If Brawler were small, he would have access to more combos thanks to his size, but we are not going by X122 Tiny Brawler, we're going by 1111 Default Brawler.

 

[DarkK]

Don't pretend Doc has some drastically different playstyle (his playstyle is different, but that's mostly because of how his flaws cripple him to his bait/punish gameplan which doesn't make sense because his punish game is weaker than Mario's) so you can make up reasons that he isn't directly inferior to Mario in every way.

-1
-1
+1

Of course they are similar, they have the same exact moveset save for 2 moves.That doesn't mean he's 5 tiers below Mario, though, and simply saying "Mario exists" is not how you evaluate characters on tiers. If that were the case, about 6 characters would be bottom tier in Street Fighter 4 simply because Evil Ryu exists.

I know Doc has many things that hold him back, but I'm not saying he's top tier. I'm simply saying he's way underrated.

 

[IndigoSSB]

If this is the last round of voting then I doubt I'll be able to make any last minute significant changes but...

+ Call it main biased, maybe you're right although I try not to be. However, I think his advantaged state is great and his bad neutral isn't as crippling as people make it out to be. At the very least I refuse to believe he's worse than wii fit trainer.
+A couple of pages back I said this was getting close to the ideal tier list for me. I didn't notice the ranking among the fire emblem characters.
- That's where DK should be.

if I had another vote I'd give it to Ike.

If possible I'd like to change my Marth vote for:

+

I thought about it and I'll admit Marth vs Roy is a bit more open to opinion. However, I'm finding it hard to place Roy above Ike, who is quickly establishing himself as a very viable character. The population of Ikes in top 32 at Big House should serve as evidence that the buffs Ike has been getting (thanks Japan lol) is making a difference, and a significant one at that.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Of course they are similar, they have the same exact moveset save for 2 moves.That doesn't mean he's 5 tiers below Mario, though, and simply saying "Mario exists" is not how you evaluate characters on tiers. If that were the case, about 6 characters would be bottom tier in Street Fighter 4 simply because Evil Ryu exists.

I know Doc has many things that hold him back, but I'm not saying he's top tier. I'm simply saying he's way underrated.

They have also different speeds in running and attack speed. Dr. Mario is slower but stronger, and he has a bad recovery. Mario is faster, has an OK recovery, and great combos. Mario's u-air does less damage than Dr. Mario's u-air (for example), but Mario can string 2 or even more u-airs together when Doc can only hit one. To add on to this, Mario's sped, combos, and even spike give him an even better punish game than Doc.

Having 2 different moves isn't that much, but all of the compiled differences that are overall WORSE than Mario makes him bad.

 

[Routa]

The thing about Doc is that he has great moves (mainly Bair and Up-B), but the thing is that they aren't that good on a character like Doc... Still a ****ty example... Hmm.. Ah now I know where to compare him. He is like high end PC that runs Windows Vista OS.

Doc is a odd character. He is a mix of Bait and Punish and Combo character. The thing is that... He is mediocre at best when it comes to combos and punishing. He lacks heavy punishes unlike Ike and Ganondorf and he lack great combo game in mid % like Mario and Diddy. And there is his greatest weakness... Recovery. Oh boy his recovery sucks. He is pretty much limited to recover low. Also it is very linear and can be easily abused (it is kinda funny that people respect his recovery). So what els? Unlike Mac Doc does not have things to make up his bad disadvantage state.

My conclusion? Well he isn't bad, but he isn't good. At best he might be in bottom of mid tier. But yeah there is a major gap between Doc and Mario for a reason. Pit(s) are placed in the same spot (when asked from Pit and Dark Pit mains) because the difference between them is so small that the difference between MUs are small are small enough to be ignored. They are near indentical spec wise (lets say other one might have better graphic card and other might have prosessor) and run the same OS.

And yeah my examples suck ass but I hope you get what I mean. And before you guys comment that I don't know anything about Doc... I mained the guy for 4 months and now retesting him atm. He might not be great, but he feels right in my hands..

 

[DarkK]

They have also different speeds in running and attack speed. Dr. Mario is slower but stronger, and he has a bad recovery. Mario is faster, has an OK recovery, and great combos. Mario's u-air does less damage than Dr. Mario's u-air (for example), but Mario can string 2 or even more u-airs together when Doc can only hit one. To add on to this, Mario's sped, combos, and even spike give him an even better punish game than Doc.

Having 2 different moves isn't that much, but all of the compiled differences that are overall WORSE than Mario makes him bad.

Doc can combo/string other things into up air, like nair. bair and even tornado. What people need to understand is that the difference isn't as small as it was in Melee, so you can't really jump from Mario to Doc and back like it was nothing. Doc's recovery isn't as bad as you may think thanks to tornado, the problem is that it's easily gimpable because it's predictable, so Doc has to mix it up so it won't get punished every time. Doc also has a better up smash than Mario in the sense that it doesn't have a blind spot at the end of it, as well as being useful for strings.

Like other people have said, he has Mario's frame data, which means his attacks come out quite fast. His mobility might take a hit, but he compensates for it with his higher kill power compared to Mario. Once again, I'm not saying he's god-like, but he's quite underrated.

 

[Equin0x]

-1
Stop there's a reason she's lower, holy ****.

The reason she's lower is ignorance. Ignorance to the fact that she has different yet similar tools than Marth that make her about as good if not better than Marth. Her damage output is absurd. Sure, Marth hs tippers, and those are very strong, but every one of Lucina's hitboxes are equally strong and comparable to Marth's tippers. This makers her juggling game much more rewarding and her kills, while not always as early, more reliable outside of hard reads or shieldbreaks. It also gives her a kill option unique to her in Usmash on a grounded opponent.

There's absolutely no reason for her to be in a tier below Marth.

 

[atreyujames]

The reason she's lower is ignorance. Ignorance to the fact that she has different yet similar tools than Marth that make her about as good if not better than Marth. Her damage output is absurd. Sure, Marth hs tippers, and those are very strong, but every one of Lucina's hitboxes are equally strong and comparable to Marth's tippers. This makers her juggling game much more rewarding and her kills, while not always as early, more reliable outside of hard reads or shieldbreaks. It also gives her a kill option unique to her in Usmash on a grounded opponent.

There's absolutely no reason for her to be in a tier below Marth.

I don't usually get into these kinds of "clone wars" debates. but I have to pipe up this time. I can 100% guarantee to you that Lucina is NOT better than Marth and all her hitboxes are NOT as strong as Marths tippers. I don't have a real opinion on whether Lucina is way worse or on par with Marth, but she is not better. No way no how. And the other statement is pure hyperbole or lies. If you actually look at the data on their moves you will see that marths non tipper damage is BARELY weaker than Lucina's damage. But his tipper is much stronger. Please don't exaggerate or give false information

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Doc can combo/string other things into up air, like nair. bair and even tornado. What people need to understand is that the difference isn't as small as it was in Melee, so you can't really jump from Mario to Doc and back like it was nothing. Doc's recovery isn't as bad as you may think thanks to tornado, the problem is that it's easily gimpable because it's predictable, so Doc has to mix it up so it won't get punished every time. Doc also has a better up smash than Mario in the sense that it doesn't have a blind spot at the end of it, as well as being useful for strings.

Like other people have said, he has Mario's frame data, which means his attacks come out quite fast. His mobility might take a hit, but he compensates for it with his higher kill power compared to Mario. Once again, I'm not saying he's god-like, but he's quite underrated.

Saying his recovery isn't that bad due to tornado is absurd. That's like saying Mac's recovery isn't that bad because he can side-B or up-b. Doc's tornado is a highly punishable move offstage, and his up-b is a terrible recovery move.

Even if Doc can string other things off of his u-air, his damage output is still worse overall. Mario can string more moves together and that = more damage in total.

Higher kill power doesn't mean much when you can't tack on percent well and you're slow (example, heavies). Again, having one better move than your clone counterpart doesn't make you comparable to that counterpart.

 

[Cyclone_]

Can people seriously stop putting & higher? They are not as good as you think they are. They have bed match ups against all the other fire emblem characters especially &. yes has tip shots that allow early kills but with the way half the cast moves in this game such as ,,,and, it can be potentially hard to hit people because of his mediocre range. Honest to god take it form someone who has mained him since the game had come out.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Can people seriously stop putting & higher? They are not as good as you think they are. They have bed match ups against all the other fire emblem characters especially &. yes has tip shots that allow early kills but with the way half the cast moves in this game such as ,,,and, it can be potentially hard to hit people because of his mediocre range. Honest to god take it form someone who has mained him since the game had come out.

Mediocre range? Marth has good ranged, DISJOINTED moves. Not saying you're wrong about tier placement though, but Marth's problem is not the range, it's the speed.

 

[Equin0x]

I don't usually get into these kinds of "clone wars" debates. but I have to pipe up this time. I can 100% guarantee to you that Lucina is NOT better than Marth and all her hitboxes are NOT as strong as Marths tippers. I don't have a real opinion on whether Lucina is way worse or on par with Marth, but she is not better. No way no how. And the other statement is pure hyperbole or lies. If you actually look at the data on their moves you will see that marths non tipper damage is BARELY weaker than Lucina's damage. But his tipper is much stronger. Please don't exaggerate or give false information

I meant that all of her hitboxes are equally strong to each other and those hotboxes are comparable in strength to Marth's tippers. Of course theyre mot as strong as the tippers, but you dont need to get a tipper to do a lot of damage. That's what the rest of my argument was based on.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I meant that all of her hitboxes are equally strong to each other and those hotboxes are comparable in strength to Marth's tippers. Of course theyre mot as strong as the tippers, but you dont need to get a tipper to do a lot of damage. That's what the rest of my argument was based on.

I don't think you realize this, but the better you are, the better at spacing you are. A good Marth can space tipper f-smashes more than a bad one, and while they ain't always gonna get it, the (let's say) 70% to get a kill at 70% is way better than the 100% chance to get it at 110% lets say. This gives marth better kill moves, yet still having the same (basically) everything else. The tipper does WONDERS that don't include killing also. For example, it makes Marth's neutral better because tipper aerials get Marth stage control better. It also makes the opponent play weary, since one mistake can lead to a death at 70%. Lucina doesn't have that.

 

[Kasai]

If possible I'd like to change my Marth vote for:

+

I thought about it and I'll admit Marth vs Roy is a bit more open to opinion. However, I'm finding it hard to place Roy above Ike, who is quickly establishing himself as a very viable character. The population of Ikes in top 32 at Big House should serve as evidence that the buffs Ike has been getting (thanks Japan lol) is making a difference, and a significant one at that.

You'll probably just want to go edit your old post to make sure there isn't any confusion.

 

[Equin0x]

I don't think you realize this, but the better you are, the better at spacing you are. A good Marth can space tipper f-smashes more than a bad one, and while they ain't always gonna get it, the (let's say) 70% to get a kill at 70% is way better than the 100% chance to get it at 110% lets say. This gives marth better kill moves, yet still having the same (basically) everything else. The tipper does WONDERS that don't include killing also. For example, it makes Marth's neutral better because tipper aerials get Marth stage control better. It also makes the opponent play weary, since one mistake can lead to a death at 70%. Lucina doesn't have that.

Of course I realize this. I even said in my original post that Marth gets earlier kills with perfect spacing. My counterargumemt to this was that nobody will get the tip every time unless they get a hard on their opponent or a shieldbreak. Lucina' in exchange for later kills, is at leadt more reliable in her kills. She doesn't need perfect spacing.

As far as the neutral goes, you brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. That'd certainly be a plus to having tippers and getting them on command, but Lucina has a strong plus in the neutral too: room for error. Sure, Marth's tippers will knock them further away if hit, but if they don't hit, they won't get knocked further away. Lucina needs not worry about this problem. This room for error is invaluble against smaller or more nimble characters such as Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, Meta Knight, and Sonic. All are small, nimble, or both. All are high tier.

This room for error is where I derive my comment on their juggles games from. An expert Marth can choose between a tipper and non-tipper, but this also means he must choose between more damage and less followups (due to more distance at the time of hit and higher knockback) or low damage and more followups. Lucina doesn't have to choose. Even in the air for juggles, where a Marth's accuracy might falter, Lucina has no problem, because she has room for error.

 

[Bowserboy3]

but Lucina has a strong plus in the neutral too: room for error.

That's not how the neutral game works. You don't have room for mistakes when fighting for stage control. One mistake can cost you the stage control, and in some cases, the stock.

 

[Equin0x]

That's not how the neutral game works. You don't have room for mistakes when fighting for stage control. One mistake can cost you the stage control, and in some cases, the stock.

1. This isn't Melee. You have room to fail once or twice in the neutral.
2. My point was, it's a thousand times HARDER to fail with Lucina because you don't need to constantly aim for a specific hitbox. Therefore, using your argument, Lucina is safer in the neutral than Marth, which I agree with.
3. If a Marth could somehow got tippers 100% of the time, I would be more willing to agree that Marth is better than Lucina, but that's not how it works. Nobody will ever get 100% tippers on command.

 

[smashphan4]

+1

 

[Bowserboy3]

1. This isn't Melee. You have room to fail once or twice in the neutral.
2. My point was, it's a thousand times HARDER to fail with Lucina because you don't need to constantly aim for a specific hitbox. Therefore, using your argument, Lucina is safer in the neutral than Marth, which I agree with.
3. If a Marth could somehow got tippers 100% of the time, I would be more willing to agree that Marth is better than Lucina, but that's not how it works. Nobody will ever get 100% tippers on command.

I know it's not Melee. However in terms of neutral, one mistake can still put you in a bad position. You whiff a move? You might not be on the receiving end of a combo, but you will be on the defensive if you commit to something and fail at it. The point I am getting at is that neither Marth or Lucina have room for error at all. The fact that Lucina has an average blade doesn't make her neural safer at all. Alternatively, Marth having sourspots doesn't make his worse than Lucina either. It doesn't really matter at all what you do, whether you get a tipper, a sourspot, or are using the Parallel Falchion, just landing that initial hit that gives you the control is important, which puts the opponent in a bad position.

Honestly, there are no huge differences to Marth or Lucina at all. Both have relatively the same combos and juggling tools. Like many have mentioned before, its all down to whether you can tipper. And like you said, Marth isn't going to be getting tippers all the time, but due to the sheer fact that Marth can finish the opponent off at 37% when Lucina can't just makes him that much more threatening. The opponent has to be on point with every move they make, as one slight mistake could put them in a bad position. When playing Lucina, the opponent doesn't have to worry about this as much, because though her blade is balanced, it doesn't make such a huge difference. In many cases too, Marth landing a sourspot can also lead him into a tipper attack, where Lucina's would have launched too far for a follow up.

If I am to give my two cents, I think its fair to say Marth is better than Lucina for all the reasons I mentioned above. However, I do still think that she is extremely close to him in terms of tier list placement. The fact that she is a whole tier below him as of this post is absurd.

 

[Routa]

Could we please stop with this "This isn't Melee" thing? It is THE WORST argument I have ever heard in my life and trust me I have heard really ****ty arguments.

 

[wedl!!]

There's a margin of error in neutral? I literally can't believe what I'm reading.