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Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE
- Thread starter Browny
- Start date
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I don't understand upvotes for Kirby. I main him STILL (surprises me I havent dropped him yet) but seriously. Why? I can rant to people about all the ****ty things about this character, kit, MUs, etc, but all people ever say is "b...buh mah comboz" which doesn't matter in the slightest in the grand scheme of things.
Kirby has good combos, some of the best imo, but why doesn't it matter? Here is basically why.
Kirby has a lot of weaknesses. His neutral is bad, he has no approach options, he is slow on the ground and has one of the slowest airspeeds in the game, a short jump (weakness or strength depending on how you look at it), no landing options, gimable recovery (easy to gimp jumps + up-b no sweetspot), he is INSANELY unsafe on shields. That one I can't ignore, he can't d-air, n-air, f-air, b-air, or properly u-air a shield. Tilts are unsafe too, literally the back part of u-air and retreating f-air are your only safe shield options.
So what does this make Kirby then? A slow moving character with a bad neutral. He can't approach, but he lacks the proper tools to force the opponent to approach. If Kirby is forced to approach, he can't shorthop (which can start most of his combos) because he is so unsafe on shield. On that note, he also can't play defensively. This only leaves him with punishing, which he can't do because he doesn't have the tools to approach and he doesn't have the tools to make the opponent approach.
To add on to this clunky mess of a character, if the opponent plays a perfect defensive game, Kirby is literally screwed. He also gets camped out because short jump + slow + bad defensive options.
Kirby also can't combo at all after 60%, making the comeback factor against him huge. If he can't convert anything into a good edge-guard below 60%, killing the opponent is ridiculously hard.
Match-ups matter too, but can you name a high/top tier character he has an actual advantage match-up with? Can you name many characters he beats? I can't. Let's see, near even with Sheik, ZSS, Fox, and Falcon (probably doesn't even go 50:50 with them). Bodied by Rosa, Pika, Luigi, Mario, Diddy, Sonic, Yoshi, Villager, Peach, Ness, and others. Some winning match-ups he has? Maybe Wii Fit, maybe Bowser, maybe Falco. I can't name very many MUs I can literally claim as good for him.
I don't think he is bottom tier or anything, his close-to-ok with two of the most threatening characters in the game definitely makes him a threat, but honestly, he isn't good apart from that.
Kirby has good combos, some of the best imo, but why doesn't it matter? Here is basically why.
Kirby has a lot of weaknesses. His neutral is bad, he has no approach options, he is slow on the ground and has one of the slowest airspeeds in the game, a short jump (weakness or strength depending on how you look at it), no landing options, gimable recovery (easy to gimp jumps + up-b no sweetspot), he is INSANELY unsafe on shields. That one I can't ignore, he can't d-air, n-air, f-air, b-air, or properly u-air a shield. Tilts are unsafe too, literally the back part of u-air and retreating f-air are your only safe shield options.
So what does this make Kirby then? A slow moving character with a bad neutral. He can't approach, but he lacks the proper tools to force the opponent to approach. If Kirby is forced to approach, he can't shorthop (which can start most of his combos) because he is so unsafe on shield. On that note, he also can't play defensively. This only leaves him with punishing, which he can't do because he doesn't have the tools to approach and he doesn't have the tools to make the opponent approach.
To add on to this clunky mess of a character, if the opponent plays a perfect defensive game, Kirby is literally screwed. He also gets camped out because short jump + slow + bad defensive options.
Kirby also can't combo at all after 60%, making the comeback factor against him huge. If he can't convert anything into a good edge-guard below 60%, killing the opponent is ridiculously hard.
Match-ups matter too, but can you name a high/top tier character he has an actual advantage match-up with? Can you name many characters he beats? I can't. Let's see, near even with Sheik, ZSS, Fox, and Falcon (probably doesn't even go 50:50 with them). Bodied by Rosa, Pika, Luigi, Mario, Diddy, Sonic, Yoshi, Villager, Peach, Ness, and others. Some winning match-ups he has? Maybe Wii Fit, maybe Bowser, maybe Falco. I can't name very many MUs I can literally claim as good for him.
I don't think he is bottom tier or anything, his close-to-ok with two of the most threatening characters in the game definitely makes him a threat, but honestly, he isn't good apart from that.
monzer
Smash Journeyman
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Zero making a video on a charact always makes that character rise in tier lists. Usually the character deserves the new attention though.
Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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Olimar. Villager. Pac-Man. Mewtwo. Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner. Zelda, Palutena. King Dedede. Ganondorf. Samus. Charizard. Dr. Mario. Mr. Game & Watch. Little Mac. Shulk. Lucas. Lucario. Rob. ALL matchups in Kirby's favor that you missed. Fox, Sheik, and ZSS are defitenly 50:50, and Captain Falcon is 55:45, if not 60:40. Yoshi is the only matchup that bodies Kirby, everyone else is 40:60 or 45:55.
Killing can be hard, but not that bad due to up and forward smashes, (It is hard, but about as hard as Sheik, maybe a little more), and he actually has a few combos after 60%. His jumps are pretty good, actually, although it is kinda slow. But same with everyone. His combos are great to the point where he is automatictially not low tier. I actually have punished people as Kirby too, and his defensive game doesn't suck at the slightest.
I still agree with the rest though, IMO he shoudn't go up OR down, stay at this exact spot, I only up vote him because I don't want him to go down.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Olimar camps us out hard and his throw combos still work on us because we're floaty, plus he is a small target so we can't combo him as easily.
Villager is the same, but he also outranges us and gimps us easily.
Pac is just no. He has a good combo breaker, a really good recovery, can camp us out and even if we take his projectiles he will still be able to play better with them.
Mewtwo I could see in our favour.
The Miis I don't think in our favour. Swordfighter has OK damage output and outranges us pretty decently, gunner wrecks kirby imo, and brawler is 2 fast with his combos.
Zelda maybe. Her weaknesses involve her bad neutral and moves with high landing lag. She can force us to approach though, so she beats us there, and we cant edge-guard her.
Palu no, as long as she doesn't use tilts she wins the MU lol
DeDeDe no, he outranges us hard, forces us to approach, has a combo breaker, and we cant edge-guard him.
Samus maybe. Floaty and can combo us, but we can edge-guard her easily and duck under some of her good moves.
Charizard I could see in our favour.
Dr. Mario I can see being even, but he has good on stage options against us, and his n-air can block out combos (and even if it doesn't, we have to wait for the n-air to end to not get the strong hit, basically nullifying us in that area. we gimp him hard tho, thats why 50:50
G&W no, he still combos us hard, he is small and hard to hit, and we can't edge-guard him. He also forces us to approach.
Shulk no, outranges us way too hard and we don't have many good OOS options to punish it, and killing him is hard. Monados make it easier but IMO its still bad.
Lucas no, forces us to approach, can't edge-guard, can't combo.
Lucario no, since we have problems killing after 60%, he gets to rage+aura easily and we die early.
ROB no. Camps us out, kills us insanely easily, edge-guards us easily. I think even since we can combo and edge-guard him effectively.
Wanna know a trend in all those characters you named? Only 2-3 of them are at least high tier, yet I proved them to be bad (and one of them even). Another thing about all these MUs is our ability to combo and edge-guard, two of Kirby's biggest strengths. If we can't do what we're good at, then how can it be OK for Kirby?
We have barely any combos after 60%. U-tilt to anything (except maybe sourspot u-air to d-air on some characters) doesn't work anymore. We have some backwards u-tilt combos but those are super situational. D-air u-tilt sure, but what will it do? How do you even land that since it is so weak to shield?
I never said his punish game is bad, but it is average at best. U-tilt is like his only good punish move, and they have to be behind him. The rest (d-air, grab) easily avoidable even if they miss something. F-smsh comes out on frame 12 I think, same with u-smash. While good kill moves, that is incredibly slow. D-smash is 10 frames, which is weirdly long for a d-smash. Also, F-smash is super unsafe on... anything. Shield, spotdodge, and roll. If you miss GG youre dead if youre above 80%. U-smash is safer but less range and you need a good read to hit it. D-smash is only good because it lingers.
And how does Kirby's defensive game not suck? I exlpained why it does. Bad mobility on the ground and the air, short jump height with little small jumps (so you can't avoid them) and no projectile yourself to counter them. If you inhale them, good job, but now you still have to avoid the wrath of projectiles and you still have to approach since they will usually have more/be better at handling them.
EDIT: also, Sheik and ZSS aren't definitely 50:50. Sheik still is amazingly fast and completely obliterates us in neutral, ZSS can punish our duck with a well-spaced grab/d-smash and kill us at 30% (or bait us to get out of duck when near the edges and n-air/d-smash down-b). Once she gets us out of duck, the MU becomes like 65:35 in ZSS's favour. Fox I could say 50:50 but then again he does outspeed and outrange us, and while we can gimp him, he can gimp us easily too. Falcon is iffy for me because while we combo and edge-gurd him really well, its the same situation as ZSS. Once we are out of duck, we're screwed. He has super speed, really good range and faster moves than us. I could see that one being 50:50 also. Sorry for ranting but people upvoting Kirby because he has good combos rustles my jimmies. Samus has good combos yet she is still bad.
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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Some of those IMO are in our favor due to inhale (A lot, actually).
I agree with that punish is only average too, I thought you said it was bad
Xandercosm
Smash Lord
Don't hate on da Kirb!
Mo433
Smash Journeyman
Maybe it's just personal bias, but I feel like you are only looking at the negatives that Kirby has while extremely down playing his good options. And combos aren't the only thing that makes Kirby good, otherwise I wouldn't advocate for him as much as I do.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
His strengths are his good combo game, his edge-guarding, and his size + floatiness. I never said these were particularly bad, but I'm not saying they are too useful either. I explained his combo game, it is probably his best aspect, he can combo really well and that is awesome, but it only lasts until 60%, and then he has little options. His edge-guarding is also really amazing with all of his moves coming out fast and d-air being one of the best d-airs in the game, but setting up for this golden good thing is hard, since he is a character that has to revolve around punishes 3/4 of his MUs while his punishes are just average. He has no setups into offstage gimps (except for f-throw d-air on 50% of the chars at low percents). His size and floatiness is good tho.
Paxadin
Smash Apprentice
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You seem to forget the power of Inhale in almost all of your match ups.
Olimar match-up is highly in Kirby's favor just because of Inhale. All you need is a single dair into neutral-b. Kirby's Pikmin pluck is much faster and turns Kirby into an unapproachable wall. It seriously makes the MU incredibly hard for Olimar, especially since Kirby can do a sort of toss while sliding across the ground, meaning he can approach with them. If Olimar is offstage, he's forced to recovery low unless he wants a barrage of Pikmins, but wait, recovering low means Kirby gimps you with his many options.
Villager can't spam as much because we can pocket all his items/projectiles, including side-smash or down-b. We can also duck under his barrage of Fairs and Bairs.
I don't get your problem with Pac.
Zelda can't force an approach against Kirby worth anything.
etc.
Honestly, I wonder how the hell you use Kirby for your experiences with him to be that bad. I've never had that huge of a problem killing after 60%, all it takes is either reads, Dair to dsmash, or Bair (And i've also killed with the hammer plenty of times because it puts fear into people, sending them into a sort of panic, sort of like Mac's KO).
If your Kirby has this much trouble, then I believe it's severely lacking.
Olimar match-up is highly in Kirby's favor just because of Inhale. All you need is a single dair into neutral-b. Kirby's Pikmin pluck is much faster and turns Kirby into an unapproachable wall. It seriously makes the MU incredibly hard for Olimar, especially since Kirby can do a sort of toss while sliding across the ground, meaning he can approach with them. If Olimar is offstage, he's forced to recovery low unless he wants a barrage of Pikmins, but wait, recovering low means Kirby gimps you with his many options.
Villager can't spam as much because we can pocket all his items/projectiles, including side-smash or down-b. We can also duck under his barrage of Fairs and Bairs.
I don't get your problem with Pac.
Zelda can't force an approach against Kirby worth anything.
etc.
Honestly, I wonder how the hell you use Kirby for your experiences with him to be that bad. I've never had that huge of a problem killing after 60%, all it takes is either reads, Dair to dsmash, or Bair (And i've also killed with the hammer plenty of times because it puts fear into people, sending them into a sort of panic, sort of like Mac's KO).
If your Kirby has this much trouble, then I believe it's severely lacking.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
You got me with Olimar, I forgot about inhale, so that one could be good. Villager's pocket helps against one projectile, and if we pocket it he can keep camping us out. Same aspect, unless you catch a rocket and immediately throw it back (highly punishable) than its hard. You also can't edge-guard him and n-air breaks combos. I don't know why ducking is apparently so good, and I only see Kirby mains saying it is good. Yeah we duck under things, but that means they have full control at that point in the match to bait us, mixup, etc while we wait to punish a move.
Pac's projectiles are nice, but Pac-man can use them better and more efficiently. We can't combo him, or edge-guard him.
Zelda has din's fire, while not super effective, makes the entire game dodging, and Kirby would have to approach at some point.
Killing after 60% is hard since b-air is his only use-able kill move, and it gets wrecked by shielding. And if you have actually gotten legit kills with hammer, then you gotta play some better people. Unless you have giant hammer and your percent is over 100% (even then it isn't viable) you shouldn't be hitting amy competent player with it.
Xandercosm
Smash Lord
Maybe you just suck at Kirby...
Tyranitarphantom
Smash Apprentice
-1: Will performs well with DK for ages, but doesn't win at top level because of DK's limitations. M2K plays DK and does surprisingly well at a not-very-stacked "national" and suddenly DK is high tier. M2K even says he can't main DK because he's mid tier, and he's right: DK is nothing more than a solid mid-tier. He belongs around where Mega Man is on this list. -1: Despite recent buffs, Falco still has absolutely nothing going for him. He belongs in low tier. +1: It's really sad just how much people sleep on Greninja. He's an awkward and uncommon character, so people can't be blamed for not knowing how amazing he is. What's worse is that ZeRo has called him a mediocre character, so now all those who believe every word he says now think he's mid tier. Spoilers: ZeRo is wrong. Greninja is the character whose placement on this current list is the furthest from the truth (besides maybe DK). Greninja belongs around where Ryu is on the current list.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Don't make assumptions my friend. Just because I think my character is bad, I'm bad? I have given extensive reasons with back-up behind it, in no way does that make me bad. I have done extensive research on the kirbmeister and I chat with a lot of other kirby mains about strategies/tech/MUs on skype/slack a lot too.
I can admit I have recently stopped playing because a Project M is more fun, but I still play Smash 4 and I try to go to my fair share of big offline tournaments (so far EXP 2015 and Summit, 2nd in my pool and 3rd in my pool respectively) while also maintaining consistent top 4 placings in online tournaments. I'm not saying I'm good, but saying I'm bad because I have an opinion is simply not right.
wedl!!
Goddess of Storms
no maz ur bad and ur opinion is wrong because ur against the status quo ok
Xandercosm
Smash Lord
2 things:
1. Project M isn't more fun than Smash 4. Don't be a Melee suck-up.
2. I was mostly kidding with that last post.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I think it's more fun, Project M is my favourite smash game. Agree to disagree. I'm also not a Melee suck-up lmao
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
ok
TMNTSSB4
Smash Obsessed
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Project M doesn't really count as a Smash game since it's a mod/hack of all the hard work Sakurai had to do to please you. It's really annoying how everyone ends up saying it's the best due to it being more competitive and other crap like that.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
oh my god Jesus christ ok it is my favourite game revolving all the Nintendo characters in Brawl + Mewtwo and Roy that I classify as a smash game. I don't like it because it is competitive, I like it because I have the most fun with it. Just leave it be man, I don't have to have your opinions.
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Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I didn't call it a 'real' smash game. I just called it a super smash brothers game. Doesn't have to be official for me to call it a smash game. That's like saying DOTA wasn't DOTA because it was a mod of starcraft.
Zionaze
Smash Ace
I'm out. I prefer the air.
Just going to remind everyone that this isn't the bash another smash game thread, and is the tier list thread. Seriously, this isn't the place to go around bashing the other smash games/mods, this is supposed to be a place of competitive discussion.
Back on topic, I have a quick question on Kirby, who i admittedly don't have the most knowledge on, if Olimar supposedly walls out Kirby, how does Kirby approach him and actually land the Inhale on him to gain the advantage? I'm a little confused on how that works, and I'd love to learn how he would approach in that scenario so I can better understand Kirby and rate him tier-wise with more accuracy.
Back on topic, I have a quick question on Kirby, who i admittedly don't have the most knowledge on, if Olimar supposedly walls out Kirby, how does Kirby approach him and actually land the Inhale on him to gain the advantage? I'm a little confused on how that works, and I'd love to learn how he would approach in that scenario so I can better understand Kirby and rate him tier-wise with more accuracy.
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Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
No it wouldnt. It is a game made off of smash, based on smash, and has the elenents of a smash game. I never called it an official smash game, smash isn't implying it is official. if I say "my favourite water is FIJI" and you replying with "well that isn't the ORIGINAL bottled water company so you can't call it water" it just doesn't make sense. Your argument is wrong.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
It never is impossible to approach, but it definitely is hard. Without inhale Kirby gets dominated, but a lucky b-air to get them offstage and an inhale to cover ledge options can twist the MU around.
TMNTSSB4
Smash Obsessed
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This has been said about 509 times, and nothing happens, and wouldn't Kirby just be able to dair him
...this logic...just no. Doesn't work with water at all, why use that as an example?
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I used it because it fits well. Flavoured water can work the same. If I take FIJI water, make it better in some ways, and give it away and calls it Project Fiji, people might like it better. "What's your favourite water?" "Project Fiji" "BUT THATS NOT ORIGINAL FIJI SO IT CANT BE YOUR FAVOURITE WATER" just because it is a modification of Fiji, it still makes it water. Same concept, a smash game is a super smash brothers game. Project M is made off of Brawl, and some people like it better. Just because its a mod, doesn't make it automatically not a smash game. It also takes apart in some smash tournaments, like Summit, Paragon, past Apex's, etc
EDIT: also, why would a kirby d-air an olimar at any percent below 100%? Olimar has a god recovery, no point.
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Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
thats great
Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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I forget what it was, I think it's forward throw - inhale.
he can't attack during recovery. We d-air spike and he's dead.
Just kidding with the striked out section above, stop insulting everyone and argueing about this. It won't end up good in the end, the thread may be closed or Browny shadowbans you
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Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Still haven't proved it to me, nor have made any actions to even try to. You also haven't shown any knowledge OF kirby, so it's safe to say that you're wrong. If anyone else wants to debate I'm up for it (I love debating), but can't debate against someone who can't even back up their statements
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I haven't insulted anyone. Look through it, I havent. also, if you're saying a single d-air would kill olimar, that's funny. It's more worth it to take his ability and start winning than for going for the d-air spike (which he prob won't die from) and I don't really care about being shadow banned because I don't really vote on here since it is so based on "I main X so imma vote X to the top".
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Nu~
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This thread has gotten even more cancerous than before. Lol at Kirby beating pacman. Comedians these days.
But seriously, a page hyping up Kirby with soley theorycraft and then talking about what's the best smash game? Is this a social?
But seriously, a page hyping up Kirby with soley theorycraft and then talking about what's the best smash game? Is this a social?
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Yeah it got derailed. Idk why people would think kirby beats pac, it's a pretty bad MU.