Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

+1
+1
-1

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ike has more up votes than Bowser Jr. and Pac-Man.

What has happened to people?

 

[Browny]

I have to wonder, what makes Mewtwo so bad? I'd vote him up, but I don't care enough about him to use a vote on him.
+1
+1
+1

I'm loaded with bias, but I also don't care.

Mewtwo has been damaged in a lot of peoples opinions due to misinformation and anti-hype following his release. For one example, all it took was M2K to say on stream once that 'Mewtwo has no combos' and that pretty much did it, it was now set in peoples mind that he cant combo. Of course, Mewtwo does have combos; they just dont start off his grab.

In return, Mewtwo is packing the #1 strongest vertical kill throw, the #4 strongest backthrow and the #1 most damaging throw. Depending on how you look at it, this can be a big deal. Unfortunately many people only want free combos off a throw but what many people miss is that those combos are lost at higher % while Mewtwo retains his #1 damaging throw.

Its an interesting dynamic that countless people think it should be a given that characters have combo throws and kill throws but in reality, not every character is Ness. Mewtwo often gets compared to Ness in this department and of course Ness is better, but he is also better than literally everyone else in the cast, so its an unfair comparison to make Mewtwo seem underpowered.

So people should ask themselves; would they rather have a combo throw which stops working at like, 50% or would they rather have a really powerful kill throw?

Mewtwo gets criticised for having 'no combos' but to many people this is purely stemming from the fact he doesnt have a dthrow one which almost everyone does. If you ask them 'did you know that dtilt true combos into fair for a wide range of % or that jab-disable is a frame trap that some characters actually cant avoid' they don't know this because they haven't looked into the character, they dismissed him early as having 'no combos' which actually meant 'no dthrow combos'.

That's just one example I could list many more. Of course Mewtwo has some noticeable weaknesses but many of them are often blown out of proportion due to a lack of actually testing the character yourself.

---

I sincerely feel that a lot of peoples opinions on Mewtwo would change if they actually played him and watched videos of players like Abadango, Nietono and other top Japanese players using Mewtwo. I listed these Japanese people for a reason; because over in Japan, Mewtwo is seen as a mid-tier, hovering around #20-#30. Why would high level players be using such a character? I think the answer is simple; because they have played him, understood his moveset and apply it to realise he is actually a decent character. The reason why they even played him in the first place is because the Japanese peoples opinions weren't utterly skewed on day 1 by an American streamer.

They gave Mewtwo a chance and have developed him to the point he is a mid-tier character. This is a chance that countless westerners have not given to Mewtwo because of the initial reactions of Mewtwo by some famous players.

I say this with confidence because every time you ask people why they think Mewtwo is bad it is almost always something that is false or exaggerated and easily proven incorrect (except his weight of course). Whether it is his uthrow being weaker than sonics backthrow, you being able to SDI his nair, out-disjoint his dtilt or fair him for using confusion they are all very easy things to disprove.

Why is it that so many people are so fundamentally wrong on basic things about one character? Did M2K and other pros really do that much damage to peoples opinions on Mewtwo?

To answer that question, you first need to figure out why Japan sees a decent amount of success and potential with Mewtwo. Some say it is because they have a different 'meta', some say because Mewtwo struggles against 'rushdown' USA players. Personally I find those notions ludicrous because it can't be proven and from all of Brawls history, Japan was just as crazy aggressive at times and ultra campy at times. There was never some clear playstyle difference both countries have their share of these types of players.

What there is solid proof of though,100% undeniable evidence into why Japan sees success with Mewtwo is because they actually play him.

Its just like with Doc and Lucina. These two characters could both be quite good and see decent use in tournaments but for as long as no one picks them because they prefer Mario and Marth, they are relagated to bottom tier. With no play comes no results. When Mewtwo has play, he has results.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

ZSS and Fox are 55:45

That's an opinion for one, and two you didn't give me explanation.

ZSS does get handicapped by our duck, but by ducking, we are gambling. If she misses because of our duck we can get some percent, but if she reads our duck then she kills as at 30% (d-smash our duck to down-b and things like that). She also is way faster than us, has way more range, has a better recovery which is hard to gimp, and so many kill setups on us. Honestly all we really have is that we win the neitral most of the time, but it's a risky thing.

Fox is probably 50:50. Why wouldn't it be? We combo him easily, edge-guard him easily, and duck under lasers. So now you think it's 55:45 or some crazy ****. Thing is, Kirby is mostly about air game. His ground attacks are mostly to get him in the air, and his air attacks are fast with low landing lag. This doesn't matter against Fox. He destroys us in the air. If we are anywhere that is not on the ground, it's 65:35. Fast moves, air combos, u-air kills, the works. He is super fast and can reset neutral if he wants to, and Kirby has a hard time juggling him because he is a fastfaller too.

At least give reasoning man lmao

 

[Wintermelon43]

That's an opinion for one, and two you didn't give me explanation.

ZSS does get handicapped by our duck, but by ducking, we are gambling. If she misses because of our duck we can get some percent, but if she reads our duck then she kills as at 30% (d-smash our duck to down-b and things like that). She also is way faster than us, has way more range, has a better recovery which is hard to gimp, and so many kill setups on us. Honestly all we really have is that we win the neitral most of the time, but it's a risky thing.

Fox is probably 50:50. Why wouldn't it be? We combo him easily, edge-guard him easily, and duck under lasers. So now you think it's 55:45 or some crazy ****. Thing is, Kirby is mostly about air game. His ground attacks are mostly to get him in the air, and his air attacks are fast with low landing lag. This doesn't matter against Fox. He destroys us in the air. If we are anywhere that is not on the ground, it's 65:35. Fast moves, air combos, u-air kills, the works. He is super fast and can reset neutral if he wants to, and Kirby has a hard time juggling him because he is a fastfaller too.

At least give reasoning man lmao

ZSS cause of grab destroying a ton of her moveset.

Fox because of us being able to use lasers (While Fox pretty much can't that much due to crouch), and his high falling speed making up tilt and our combos way more effective.

 

[Macchiato]

+1

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

ZSS cause of grab destroying a ton of her moveset.

Fox because of us being able to use lasers (While Fox pretty much can't that much due to crouch), and his high falling speed making up tilt and our combos way more effective.

Dude, I literally just explained it.

ZSS needs grab yes, but the tip of grab still hits, so they can still get you since Kirby can't crawl. They ca pretend they are going for grab and d-smash, or even emptyhop to bait out your grab and punish. Just because we are harder to grab, doesn't mean it is automatically good for us. "Hey i ducked her grab, hah i just dealt 25% on a punish" or "oh oops she d-smashed after baiting my du- oh i died at 30%". There is a lot of risk in ducking.

Fox and his duckable lasers is a plus side, but it doesnt captivate him too much. Yes we combo him hard, but he demolishes us in speed. He wins neutral, he kills us early, he resets neutral easily because of his speed being really fast compared to our speed. He can't juggle him well because he lands fast too. Being able to combo and edge-guard him easily is what makes this 50:50, or at least almost even his favour. Literally both of the things you said I explained before man.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm loaded with bias, but I also don't care.

Mewtwo has been damaged in a lot of peoples opinions due to misinformation and anti-hype following his release. For one example, all it took was M2K to say on stream once that 'Mewtwo has no combos' and that pretty much did it, it was now set in peoples mind that he cant combo. Of course, Mewtwo does have combos; they just dont start off his grab.

In return, Mewtwo is packing the #1 strongest vertical kill throw, the #4 strongest backthrow and the #1 most damaging throw. Depending on how you look at it, this can be a big deal. Unfortunately many people only want free combos off a throw but what many people miss is that those combos are lost at higher % while Mewtwo retains his #1 damaging throw.

Its an interesting dynamic that countless people think it should be a given that characters have combo throws and kill throws but in reality, not every character is Ness. Mewtwo often gets compared to Ness in this department and of course Ness is better, but he is also better than literally everyone else in the cast, so its an unfair comparison to make Mewtwo seem underpowered.

So people should ask themselves; would they rather have a combo throw which stops working at like, 50% or would they rather have a really powerful kill throw?

Mewtwo gets criticised for having 'no combos' but to many people this is purely stemming from the fact he doesnt have a dthrow one which almost everyone does. If you ask them 'did you know that dtilt true combos into fair for a wide range of % or that jab-disable is a frame trap that some characters actually cant avoid' they don't know this because they haven't looked into the character, they dismissed him early as having 'no combos' which actually meant 'no dthrow combos'.

That's just one example I could list many more. Of course Mewtwo has some noticeable weaknesses but many of them are often blown out of proportion due to a lack of actually testing the character yourself.

---

I sincerely feel that a lot of peoples opinions on Mewtwo would change if they actually played him and watched videos of players like Abadango, Nietono and other top Japanese players using Mewtwo. I listed these Japanese people for a reason; because over in Japan, Mewtwo is seen as a mid-tier, hovering around #20-#30. Why would high level players be using such a character? I think the answer is simple; because they have played him, understood his moveset and apply it to realise he is actually a decent character. The reason why they even played him in the first place is because the Japanese peoples opinions weren't utterly skewed on day 1 by an American streamer.

They gave Mewtwo a chance and have developed him to the point he is a mid-tier character. This is a chance that countless westerners have not given to Mewtwo because of the initial reactions of Mewtwo by some famous players.

I say this with confidence because every time you ask people why they think Mewtwo is bad it is almost always something that is false or exaggerated and easily proven incorrect (except his weight of course). Whether it is his uthrow being weaker than sonics backthrow, you being able to SDI his nair, out-disjoint his dtilt or fair him for using confusion they are all very easy things to disprove.

Why is it that so many people are so fundamentally wrong on basic things about one character? Did M2K and other pros really do that much damage to peoples opinions on Mewtwo?

To answer that question, you first need to figure out why Japan sees a decent amount of success and potential with Mewtwo. Some say it is because they have a different 'meta', some say because Mewtwo struggles against 'rushdown' USA players. Personally I find those notions ludicrous because it can't be proven and from all of Brawls history, Japan was just as crazy aggressive at times and ultra campy at times. There was never some clear playstyle difference both countries have their share of these types of players.

What there is solid proof of though,100% undeniable evidence into why Japan sees success with Mewtwo is because they actually play him.

Its just like with Doc and Lucina. These two characters could both be quite good and see decent use in tournaments but for as long as no one picks them because they prefer Mario and Marth, they are relagated to bottom tier. With no play comes no results. When Mewtwo has play, he has results.

Well, that's an answer if I've ever seen one. I haven't bought Mewtwo yet (cause again, don't care), but I've fought a few and seen gameplay of him, and he doesn't have the makings of a bad character at all. Not compared to some of the characters he's shares a tier with.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well, that's an answer if I've ever seen one. I haven't bought Mewtwo yet (cause again, don't care), but I've fought a few and seen gameplay of him, and he doesn't have the makings of a bad character at all. Not compared to some of the characters he's shares a tier with.

Well his down-sides aren't very apparent, but they are there. Dies early and is huge, bad neutral, non-existant hitboxes that don't work, no combo game, and other things. He is a glass cannon, sure, but the glass heavily outweighs the cannon. He is more like a glass slingshot.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dude, I literally just explained it.

ZSS needs grab yes, but the tip of grab still hits, so they can still get you since Kirby can't crawl. They ca pretend they are going for grab and d-smash, or even emptyhop to bait out your grab and punish. Just because we are harder to grab, doesn't mean it is automatically good for us. "Hey i ducked her grab, hah i just dealt 25% on a punish" or "oh oops she d-smashed after baiting my du- oh i died at 30%". There is a lot of risk in ducking.

Fox and his duckable lasers is a plus side, but it doesnt captivate him too much. Yes we combo him hard, but he demolishes us in speed. He wins neutral, he kills us early, he resets neutral easily because of his speed being really fast compared to our speed. He can't juggle him well because he lands fast too. Being able to combo and edge-guard him easily is what makes this 50:50, or at least almost even his favour. Literally both of the things you said I explained before man.

Meant crouch not grab LOL

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Meant crouch not grab LOL

i still explained why that doesnt mean a lot. Its a gamble. Get the duck, get the punish. If she baits the duck, you die basically. if they catch on your ducking habits, youre screwed

 

[kirby509]

+
+
+

 

[Nai]

+
+
-

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well his down-sides aren't very apparent, but they are there. Dies early and is huge, bad neutral, non-existant hitboxes that don't work, no combo game, and other things. He is a glass cannon, sure, but the glass heavily outweighs the cannon. He is more like a glass slingshot.

Now, didn't we just discuss that Mewtwo not having no combo game is a bald-faced lie?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Now, didn't we just discuss that Mewtwo not having no combo game is a bald-faced lie?

His combo game revolves off of d-tilt, which is ok, but most of the combos my smash corner showed off just don't work because his hitboxes are broken. Just having better hitboxes would improve his combo game.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

+Mewtwo
+Lucina
+Dr. Mario

 

[Ryan.]

+1
+1
+1

 

[HerpFish]

+He has some good stuff going for him. Good pressure from mechakoopas, kill power (especially in the side-b > jump cancel > up-b), and some added mobility and mixups out of side-b. Then there's the fact that pretty much every attack he has is a disjointed hitbox.
+They stick out as being better than the characters around them with their great projectile game.
-A slow character that relies on keeping opponents away with moves that I for one find fairly easy to avoid. Once you're in, i have found it pretty easy to stay in as well. I don't want him/her to fall too far, but down a tier seems like a better fit. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, though, because I like Robin.

 

[MarioMeteor]

His combo game revolves off of d-tilt, which is ok, but most of the combos my smash corner showed off just don't work because his hitboxes are broken. Just having better hitboxes would improve his combo game.

When did My Smash Corner get into this?

 

[Vyrnx]

+1

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

When did My Smash Corner get into this?

nowhere, but he made a video about Mewtwo's combos which got everyone hype, and why a lot of people think he has combos

 

[Deleted member 269706]

+ Ike
+ Mega Man
+ Toon Link

 

[MarioMeteor]

nowhere, but he made a video about Mewtwo's combos which got everyone hype, and why a lot of people think he has combos

I think the more logical conclusion is that people actually played Mewtwo and after some time, realized, "Oh, this combos into this. And this combos into this. And this is a guarenteed combo. Hey, this character has combos."

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think the more logical conclusion is that people actually played Mewtwo and after some time, realized, "Oh, this combos into this. And this combos into this. And this is a guarenteed combo. Hey, this character has combos."

Well not everyone goes into training and starts testing combos. My Smash Corner's video garnered a lot of attention because it was one of the first info videos on Mewtwo.

 

[Deleted member]

Nitpick, but that's not true, Zard does. And Mewtwo's killthrow requires a decent amount of rage to kill early, but Mewtwo has trouble getting it due to how early he dies.

Without DI Charizard's up throw is the strongest, but it is far more affected by horizontal DI than Mewtwo's because of the direction the opponent is tossed. Good DI is used in top level of play, thus making Mewtwo's up throw the best.

Mewtwo's up throw isn't completely reliant on Rage, especially on stages with platforms or low ceilings.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well not everyone goes into training and starts testing combos. My Smash Corner's video garnered a lot of attention because it was one of the first info videos on Mewtwo.

That's what most smart people do when trying out a new character.
It may have been one of the first, but the video's very existence is proof that Mewtwo does indeed have combos. It wasn't about how to tune a piano, it was about how to *combo with *Mewtwo.
*keywords that you should pay attention to.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

That's what most smart people do when trying out a new character.
It may have been one of the first, but the video's very existence is proof that Mewtwo does indeed have combos. It wasn't about how to tune a piano, it was about how to *combo with *Mewtwo.
*keywords that you should pay attention to.

I agree with you. Smart people go into training, I know I did. But not everyone does that. Some people like to hop into a match with a friend and play, stuff like that. So when people who just wanted to chill and play Mewtwo with a friend found the vid, they found out he had "combos".

Note the quotations. He has combos, but they don't work very often because of his hitboxes, and some require bad DI/luck to pull off too. Every character has their fair share of combos, and if Mewtwo's hitboxes were fixed, I could consider him a character with good combos. But his hitboxes aren't fixed. His combos are still very inconsistent.

Having inconsistent combos that won't work against a lot of characters or on any sometimes, doesn't make you have s combo game. That's like saying Kirby's b-throw > u-air is a great combo tool. It combos into his awesome u-tilt strings, but it works on less than 50% of the cast.

 

[NickRiddle]

+
+
-

 

[Dark_Ky]

what makes Mario better than Luigi?

I always thought that Luigi did everything better than Mario.

care to elaborate?

 

[Wintermelon43]

what makes Mario better than Luigi?

I always thought that Luigi did everything better than Mario.

care to elaborate?

He is.

But he's ALWAYS too high or too low every time, and so many people vote him down or up that we can't get him in between

 

[ShortcutButton]

what makes Mario better than Luigi?

I always thought that Luigi did everything better than Mario.

care to elaborate?

He is better than Luigi.
-Mario runs faster and has manageable traction, unlike Luigi.
-Marios dthrow combos up to about 125%.
-Mario's upair is the only true "Stairway to Heaven" in Smash4.
-The Japanese rate Mario in the top three, with Sheik and Villager.
-Mario is an easily played and learnt character.
-Ally got 5th at EVO using mostly Mario.
-And most importantly, unlike Luigi, Mario actually has a chance of beating Sheik.

 

[Wintermelon43]

He is better than Luigi.
-Mario runs faster and has manageable traction, unlike Luigi.
-Marios dthrow combos up to about 125%.
-Mario's upair is the only true "Stairway to Heaven" in Smash4.
-The Japanese rate Mario in the top three, with Sheik and Villager.
-Mario is an easily played and learnt character.
-Ally got 5th at EVO using mostly Mario.
-And most importantly, unlike Luigi, Mario actually has a chance of beating Sheik.

Japan doesn't mean anything in our metagame though (Apart from what facts and combos and stuff that they find out. But results, tier losts, etc don't)

 

[Xandercosm]

He is better than Luigi.
-Mario runs faster and has manageable traction, unlike Luigi.
-Marios dthrow combos up to about 125%.
-Mario's upair is the only true "Stairway to Heaven" in Smash4.
-The Japanese rate Mario in the top three, with Sheik and Villager.
-Mario is an easily played and learnt character.
-Ally got 5th at EVO using mostly Mario.
-And most importantly, unlike Luigi, Mario actually has a chance of beating Sheik.

Yeah. Mario is freaking amazing! Better than he's ever been.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah. Mario is freaking amazing! Better than he's ever been.

Yet he still can't lose weight after 30+ freaking years.

 

[Paxadin]

Japan doesn't mean anything in our metagame though (Apart from what facts and combos and stuff that they find out. But results, tier losts, etc don't)

That statement would hold more importance if not for the fact that Mario is generally above Luigi in tier lists here too.

 

[Yojimbosan]

+
+
+

 

[DatChrizma]

-
+
-

 

[xXEnderSeanXx]

+
+
+

 

[Xandercosm]

Yet he still can't lose weight after 30+ freaking years.

Not to mention he exercises like a freak. I mean what normal human can jump 20 feet in the air and run fast enough to start flying all with just the help of a cape? He's crazy...

 

[Browny]

I agree with you. Smart people go into training, I know I did. But not everyone does that. Some people like to hop into a match with a friend and play, stuff like that. So when people who just wanted to chill and play Mewtwo with a friend found the vid, they found out he had "combos".

Note the quotations. He has combos, but they don't work very often because of his hitboxes, and some require bad DI/luck to pull off too. Every character has their fair share of combos, and if Mewtwo's hitboxes were fixed, I could consider him a character with good combos. But his hitboxes aren't fixed. His combos are still very inconsistent.

Having inconsistent combos that won't work against a lot of characters or on any sometimes, doesn't make you have s combo game. That's like saying Kirby's b-throw > u-air is a great combo tool. It combos into his awesome u-tilt strings, but it works on less than 50% of the cast.

Heres the thing...

Mewtwos janky hitboxes dont actually affect his combos, it makes literally no difference. dtilt to fair is a solid one and enemies will pop up above the shadowclaw eventually which is when it stops working. Shadow claw has no hitbox underneath it which makes it miss short characters from a shorthop, but thats it.

utilt into usmash as a combo only does it from the sourspot, if the attack had a hitbox behind it (which is where it doesnt) it wouldnt combo into usmash anyway since thats the sweetspot.

jab to disable isnt affect by hit hitboxes because both of those moves actually have pretty big range. dtilt to nair is a similar case. dair-fair is just like dtilt-fair where the enemy will fly too far away from Mewtwo when it stops working.

I'd say the only combo that actually doesnt work because of his hitboxes is dtilt-uair but thats a very situational combo that isn't used because nair/fair do more damage more reliably.

This is a prime example of misinformation and placebo effect running rampant on this site. If mewtwo had his wonky hitboxes fixed (which are fsmash, bair, uair and utilt) it would make literally NO DIFFERENCE to his combo game. Yet people on this website just like yourself would suddenly go 'oh wow mewtwo now has combos!' where you are fundamentally wrong because that is believing that he didnt have combos to begin with.

Do you see how easy this mistake is to make?

I'm not being aggressive here I'm just pointing out that spreading misinformation needs to be corrected.