Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
+1+1+1& should both go up at least a tier. I won't even bother voting up Zelda any more because every time she gets +1 two people will vote her down D:
It makes sense, Dr Mario is a character who is outclassed by many. He has some things going for him such as his Frame 3 Up B OoS option, having Mario's frame data, and a great set of good kill options (Up B, Bair, Dsmash, Usmash). However, Dr Mario's weaknesses are glaring. The obvious one is his recovery, he has bad horizontal speed, with two bad recovery options of Super Jump Punch and Doc Tornado, Doc's Super Jump Punch doesn't have the reach Mario's SJP has, while Doc Tornado can be punished if used near the ledge, this leads others getting to edgeguard Doc easily while having arguably the second worst recovery in the game. His main weakness is his weak range and speed combined. There is a reason why every character that is considered top ten with the expection of Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness, have good mobility to back them up. Doc has weak approach options becuase of his weak range and speed, while not being able to force apporachs because of having a projectile that bounces over characters. His matchup spread is also bad. Doc struggles against the top and high tiers in the game, he loses to Sheik, he loses to ZSS, he loses to Fox, he loses hard to Rosalina, and others such as Ness and Meta Knight. There are also many things his counterpart Mario can do that Doc can't, other than the obvious better mobility and recovery, Doc can't double Bair on a single short hop, set up jab resets with nair and jab (Doc's jab cannot continue jab resets), Fsmash not having the range of Mario's Fsmash, weaker combo potential, and more. The final nail to the coffin is results, Doc has none to speak of. He has Rice, but Rice also plays a lot of other characters as well.I would like your post, but downvoting
A high placement multiple times in large tournaments warrants a bit higher if you ask me. With all of the buffs, he just keeps getting better. His recovery is just too bad.
lol lol
NOI really think
Just to further tick ^ off. Also I feel like Zelda isn't as bad as people make her out to be. Has the tools and the combo potential to move up at least one tier. I know a really good R.O.B. player. This character can be scary if put in the right hands. Just don't want him going too high.
Yes, he's outclassed, but that doesn't make him bottom tier. As I said, I think his current position is fine, given he has a pretty good MU against most below him and can stand a chance at the characters a couple tiers ahead. I purposefully didn't upvote him this phase because of that. He's still got better kill power than his origin character, and his attacks aren't quite as slow as you're making them out to be. He also trades FLUDD for tornado, which I would think is better because it trades a second gimp tool for a combo move, an edgeguarder, and an aid in recovery. I agree that he has a poor recovery, that he has bad matchups against top tiers, and that he's not anywhere close to the other Mario Bros, but he's certainly mid-low tier. Why are people beating him to a pulp and not even considering Mario's weaknesses?
Color me outraged beyond belief.+1
+1
Even with the buffs, I highly doubt he's above that of bigger threats such as Roy, R.O.B and Peach. He lacks good mobility, fast attacks, and has a non-existant projectile game or a way to somewhat relieve it through approaching. He's still a good character, just as not good as everyone considers him to be. Good combo, aerial and offstage game. Great spacing tools with his reflector. Sure, he lacks decent KO potential, but then again, characters of higher tier also suffer from this exact problem. Honestly, he doesn't deserve to be this low in the list. As much as I (and most likely everyone else) didn't want to do this, Falcon really needed to go down. He's certainly a good character, no doubt about that, but due to the fact literally everyone knows his potential has led to everyone knowing how to beat him effectively, thus leading to slowly dwindling results. He is simply bodied by a good deal of the top-tier cast and the game has sadly been unfair to him with the recent nerfs he recieved, even as small as they were. 
I really don't see why you think wifi fit is bottom 5 ish. Her buffs have helped her a lot and John Number has put in some work with them. I advise you go watch himHax:
1:
2:
3:
4: (
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-1
-1
+1
+1
Edit:So THAT'S where those Ikes went lol. I swear I didn't mean to do that
Can you give me links so I can see how good they are? Thanks!
she's not bottom tier. you probably don't know anything about her soooo gorl pls.
I can't tell what you're saying when you use words like "gorl"
, is an absolutely stellar mid tier, her setups are unfathomably unorthodox, and she possesses a variety of versatile moves, including a reliably consistent projectile in Sun Salutation, an imposing camping tool in the form of Header, and a damage-increasing special in Deep Breathing. Her hitbox placing is simply rather awkward, but this double-edged sword can also be utilized to perform mindgames to confuse your opponents.
I love how you didn't change the "both" in the quote. both Zelda and Zelda should go up a tier?
Jigglypuff, bottom 10? You're funny. You must not have seen what a good Jigglypuff can do.
Outside of her smash attacks, her frame data is not poor. Jigglypuff is a very defensive character herself, she's not run in there headfirst and start swinging and attacking shields, which is what you seem to be thinking. She's definitely better than 10 characters. I'd say She's somewhere in the top 30.
Her aerials are way laggier than they should be and she has a slow grab/jab/tilts. Regardless of her not being a rushdown character, having such poor options on shield and being walled out so easily (she had these problems in Melee, hence why Young Link was an even matchup, but the physics for her in Smash 4 are worse, she has way less range, and projectiles are overall stronger than in Melee) by any character that has either a disjoint or can consistently space with projectiles. And smashes being laggy *are* a problem--they wouldn't be if she could land Rest without a read, but she can't. Good characters in this game can both punish mistakes and create opportunities--Jigglypuff can only do the former.
-1 He can't kill. Look at ESAM vs ZeRo or, more recently, Raptor vs Angel. He has killpower, but he can't kill. Shields shut him down completely, because he has absolutely no grab game, his command grab is slow, his down-air can be spot-dodged and punished before the shield breaks, and his eggs can be shielded. (I know that all projectiles can be shielded but my point is that if you shield Luigi's fireballs then you might get grabbed, but if you shield Yoshi's eggs then he doesn't really have a follow-up.) Plus, his recovery isn't very good. He's mid-tier.-1 He's high-tier. But not that high.-1 The denial is real.I know that she's not very good.
Bad gorl. No back-talk.
( Lack of good representation leads into stupid thoughts, waiting for a savior that knows how to actually play him so all the clichés can disappear: Yes, Poor mobility & range & recovery won't make him move up to a place any higher than Mid low, but he indeed packs niche matchups thanks to some tools ) ( Link is honestly a terrible character in every way: He has no niche or reason to be used in the current metagame, he doesn't make for a good solo main & requires more support than your usual Mid Low as his bad matchups are diverse ) ( Pinnacle of overrrated among the average players: he struggles vs quite a lot of characters & does need solid support as he can't stand on his own in the current metagamae )
My thoughts exactly.
Not really. Back air is the only aerial that's all that laggy, and it more than makes up for with KO power. Her smashes being laggy may not be favorable, but they don't harm her too terribly considering she's strictly an aerial fighter and most her KOs come from Rests and edgeguards. While she may not be opportune for creating opportunities, her ability to create a wall of aerials and quickly switch between offense and defense ensures that a Jigglypuff with a good grasp on her defensive options will be able to outlast her opponent and patiently wait for a mistake to jump on.
Everything you just described is something that multiple characters can do better without her crippling weaknesses.
I don't see your point. Everyone can do something that someone else can do better. Mario can combo, Luigi can combo better, but Mario is by no stretch of the imagination a bad character.
-1
