The Puffer
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2014
- Messages
- 161
- 3DS FC
- 4485-1171-5786
Inb4 Wintermelon crucifies me, I really think
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It makes sense, Dr Mario is a character who is outclassed by many. He has some things going for him such as his Frame 3 Up B OoS option, having Mario's frame data, and a great set of good kill options (Up B, Bair, Dsmash, Usmash). However, Dr Mario's weaknesses are glaring. The obvious one is his recovery, he has bad horizontal speed, with two bad recovery options of Super Jump Punch and Doc Tornado, Doc's Super Jump Punch doesn't have the reach Mario's SJP has, while Doc Tornado can be punished if used near the ledge, this leads others getting to edgeguard Doc easily while having arguably the second worst recovery in the game. His main weakness is his weak range and speed combined. There is a reason why every character that is considered top ten with the expection of Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness, have good mobility to back them up. Doc has weak approach options becuase of his weak range and speed, while not being able to force apporachs because of having a projectile that bounces over characters. His matchup spread is also bad. Doc struggles against the top and high tiers in the game, he loses to Sheik, he loses to ZSS, he loses to Fox, he loses hard to Rosalina, and others such as Ness and Meta Knight. There are also many things his counterpart Mario can do that Doc can't, other than the obvious better mobility and recovery, Doc can't double Bair on a single short hop, set up jab resets with nair and jab (Doc's jab cannot continue jab resets), Fsmash not having the range of Mario's Fsmash, weaker combo potential, and more. The final nail to the coffin is results, Doc has none to speak of. He has Rice, but Rice also plays a lot of other characters as well.I would like your post, but downvotingmakes no sense. It's true that he has a pretty bad recovery and some slow moves, but he has a projectile, a flipper-reflector (albeit kinda bad), plenty of combos, and great power without losing considerable frame data. He's not nearly as high as Mario, but I think his current placement accurately shows what he's capable of. I would like to see him buffed, though...
NOI really thinkshould both go up at least a tier.
Yes, he's outclassed, but that doesn't make him bottom tier. As I said, I think his current position is fine, given he has a pretty good MU against most below him and can stand a chance at the characters a couple tiers ahead. I purposefully didn't upvote him this phase because of that. He's still got better kill power than his origin character, and his attacks aren't quite as slow as you're making them out to be. He also trades FLUDD for tornado, which I would think is better because it trades a second gimp tool for a combo move, an edgeguarder, and an aid in recovery. I agree that he has a poor recovery, that he has bad matchups against top tiers, and that he's not anywhere close to the other Mario Bros, but he's certainly mid-low tier. Why are people beating him to a pulp and not even considering Mario's weaknesses?It makes sense, Dr Mario is a character who is outclassed by many. He has some things going for him such as his Frame 3 Up B OoS option, having Mario's frame data, and a great set of good kill options (Up B, Bair, Dsmash, Usmash). However, Dr Mario's weaknesses are glaring. The obvious one is his recovery, he has bad horizontal speed, with two bad recovery options of Super Jump Punch and Doc Tornado, Doc's Super Jump Punch doesn't have the reach Mario's SJP has, while Doc Tornado can be punished if used near the ledge, this leads others getting to edgeguard Doc easily while having arguably the second worst recovery in the game. His main weakness is his weak range and speed combined. There is a reason why every character that is considered top ten with the expection of Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness, have good mobility to back them up. Doc has weak approach options becuase of his weak range and speed, while not being able to force apporachs because of having a projectile that bounces over characters. His matchup spread is also bad. Doc struggles against the top and high tiers in the game, he loses to Sheik, he loses to ZSS, he loses to Fox, he loses hard to Rosalina, and others such as Ness and Meta Knight. There are also many things his counterpart Mario can do that Doc can't, other than the obvious better mobility and recovery, Doc can't double Bair on a single short hop, set up jab resets with nair and jab (Doc's jab cannot continue jab resets), Fsmash not having the range of Mario's Fsmash, weaker combo potential, and more. The final nail to the coffin is results, Doc has none to speak of. He has Rice, but Rice also plays a lot of other characters as well.
Color me outraged beyond belief.+1Just to further tick ^ off. Also I feel like Zelda isn't as bad as people make her out to be.
I really don't see why you think wifi fit is bottom 5 ish. Her buffs have helped her a lot and John Number has put in some work with them. I advise you go watch himHax:
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MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-1His frame Data came up to me and shouted "DOWN VOTE ME!!!!!!!!!!" at me.
-1That ain't Customs on WFT
+1REALLY wanna down vote Ness, but this is more important.
+1and -1
are really important too, but I can only vote 3.
Edit:So THAT'S where those Ikes went lol. I swear I didn't mean to do that
She was buffed in the latest update, that's why.
As for Ike, I main him, so I can attest to him having a high mid-tier slot.
First off, he doesn't have that many flaws. He dashes at an average speed for a heavyweight, and his recovery is pretty decent, especially seeing as Quick Draw allows him to recover horizontally with ease, without a lot of charging on it. He doesn't have much of any weakness for his opponents to exploit.
Ike can even halt his opponent's attempts to take control of him. When recovering with Quick Draw or Aether, his hitboxes put gimping out of the question. If his opponent goes for an aerial combo, Eruption and Aether will thwart it. Eruption's charge can also help Ike adjust if the opponent fakes out and attacks at an unexpected time.
Ragnell is a pretty long sword, granting a lot of range, especially for someone without a projectile. This comes in handy for a few moves, namely the up air, forward smash, and up smash. Ike's range can stop enemy attacks without a lot of trouble by hitting him, and makes for edgeguarding prowess.
Due to sheer power and occasionally range, Ike can KO at low percents. He can kill with the vast majority of his moves, even a forward air or dash attack. Because of this, winning matches can be a breeze for Ike, more often than you might think.
Ike has proficiency in controlling the match. His strength and range are deadly when combined, and grant him the ability to comeback when at percents higher than that of his opponent. His special moves and overall knockback end the hope of starting a combo on him, and winning is rarely out of his grasp. So, that's why Ike should stay where he is.
I really don't see why you think wifi fit is bottom 5 ish. Her buffs have helped her a lot and John Number has put in some work with them. I advise you go watch him
Can you give me links so I can see how good they are? Thanks!I really don't see why you think wifi fit is bottom 5 ish. Her buffs have helped her a lot and John Number has put in some work with them. I advise you go watch him
Can you give me links so I can see how good they are? Thanks![/quote
I can't get them to you right now as I am on vacation for a bit, I will try tho.
she's not bottom tier. you probably don't know anything about her soooo gorl pls.Can anyone tell me why people are voting WFT (Who is BOTTOM tier) up!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
I can't tell what you're saying when you use words like "gorl"she's not bottom tier. you probably don't know anything about her soooo gorl pls.
pro retort,I can't tell what you're saying when you use words like "gorl"
I love how you didn't change the "both" in the quote. both Zelda and Zelda should go up a tier?NO
BAD
BAD PUFFER
ALSO NO ONE ELSE IS VOTING DOWN ZELDA
I CANT DO THIS MYSELF
Jigglypuff, bottom 10? You're funny. You must not have seen what a good Jigglypuff can do.Jigglypuff and Zelda are both both bottom 5-10 characters.
Can you give me links so I can see how good they are? Thanks!
Outside of her smash attacks, her frame data is not poor. Jigglypuff is a very defensive character herself, she's not run in there headfirst and start swinging and attacking shields, which is what you seem to be thinking. She's definitely better than 10 characters. I'd say She's somewhere in the top 30.Jigglypuff isn't a horrible character, but I don't think anyone in this game is (other than Mewtwo, Samus, and maybe Ganon and Zelda). The vast majority of the cast is at least regionally viable. The problem is that there are 55 characters in this game, and saying that Jigglypuff absolutely isn't low tier also requires justifying why she's better than at least 10 or 15 other characters. She's chiefly harmed by the mechanics of this game--her aerial mobility and Wall of Pain means less when recoveries are so much better all around, she has nothing on shield except Pound (which is laggy) when defensive options are so powerful in this game, and as a character she has no setups into Rest (meaning she only gets it out of reads), awful range, and poor frame data.
Her aerials are way laggier than they should be and she has a slow grab/jab/tilts. Regardless of her not being a rushdown character, having such poor options on shield and being walled out so easily (she had these problems in Melee, hence why Young Link was an even matchup, but the physics for her in Smash 4 are worse, she has way less range, and projectiles are overall stronger than in Melee) by any character that has either a disjoint or can consistently space with projectiles. And smashes being laggy *are* a problem--they wouldn't be if she could land Rest without a read, but she can't. Good characters in this game can both punish mistakes and create opportunities--Jigglypuff can only do the former.Outside of her smash attacks, her frame data is not poor. Jigglypuff is a very defensive character herself, she's not run in there headfirst and start swinging and attacking shields, which is what you seem to be thinking. She's definitely better than 10 characters. I'd say She's somewhere in the top 30.
I know that she's not very good.The fact that you're saying she has bad frame data, and that you don't know about the strengths that make up for her weaknesses, just proves that you know nothing about Jigglypuff at all.
Bad gorl. No back-talk.I can't tell what you're saying when you use words like "gorl"
My thoughts exactly.The fact that you're saying she has bad frame data, and that you don't know about the strengths that make up for her weaknesses, just proves that you know nothing about Jigglypuff at all.
Not really. Back air is the only aerial that's all that laggy, and it more than makes up for with KO power. Her smashes being laggy may not be favorable, but they don't harm her too terribly considering she's strictly an aerial fighter and most her KOs come from Rests and edgeguards. While she may not be opportune for creating opportunities, her ability to create a wall of aerials and quickly switch between offense and defense ensures that a Jigglypuff with a good grasp on her defensive options will be able to outlast her opponent and patiently wait for a mistake to jump on.Her aerials are way laggier than they should be and she has a slow grab/jab/tilts. Regardless of her not being a rushdown character, having such poor options on shield and being walled out so easily (she had these problems in Melee, hence why Young Link was an even matchup, but the physics for her in Smash 4 are worse, she has way less range, and projectiles are overall stronger than in Melee) by any character that has either a disjoint or can consistently space with projectiles. And smashes being laggy *are* a problem--they wouldn't be if she could land Rest without a read, but she can't. Good characters in this game can both punish mistakes and create opportunities--Jigglypuff can only do the former.
Everything you just described is something that multiple characters can do better without her crippling weaknesses.My thoughts exactly.
Not really. Back air is the only aerial that's all that laggy, and it more than makes up for with KO power. Her smashes being laggy may not be favorable, but they don't harm her too terribly considering she's strictly an aerial fighter and most her KOs come from Rests and edgeguards. While she may not be opportune for creating opportunities, her ability to create a wall of aerials and quickly switch between offense and defense ensures that a Jigglypuff with a good grasp on her defensive options will be able to outlast her opponent and patiently wait for a mistake to jump on.
I don't see your point. Everyone can do something that someone else can do better. Mario can combo, Luigi can combo better, but Mario is by no stretch of the imagination a bad character.Everything you just described is something that multiple characters can do better without her crippling weaknesses.