Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[BluePikmin11]

Being an RPG character is hardly relevant to how Sakurai chooses characters anyway.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

i don't get it, people want diversity and innovation in gaming, Indivisible has a very unique gameplay style with a large and colourful character cast yet it doesn't get enough funding despite the exposure. This company has proven they're trustworthy but why? MN9 managed to get millions yet this is struggling to stay alive! What is Lab Zero doing wrong?

Well aside from the fact I can't in the first place. If I did have the ability, then it just isn't interesting to me.

I don't care about the setting, and the art style is not my cup of tea. Yes, I will not deny it can be beautiful. When it comes to diversity...depends on what you mean. If you are just saying, "different races" and stuff like that, then I don't care who gets represented in the game. The entire game could've been entirely white for all I care.

In terms of diverse play styles, I would need to see more.

I will recognize it is probably will be an amazing game, but it doesn't click with me

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well aside from the fact I can't in the first place. If I did have the ability, then it just isn't interesting to me.

I don't care about the setting, and the art style is not my cup of tea. Yes, I will not deny it can be beautiful. When it comes to diversity...depends on what you mean. If you are just saying, "different races" and stuff like that, then I don't care who gets represented in the game. The entire game could've been entirely white for all I care.

In terms of diverse play styles, I would need to see more.

I will recognize it is probably will be an amazing game, but it doesn't click with me

With diversity, I meant that there's a **** ton of unique characters, very few seem similar, there's race, origin story, personality, etc.

 

[Chrono.]

Being an RPG character is hardly relevant to how Sakurai chooses characters anyway.

You can say the same thing about swords or series reps (I think).

People will find a way to complain.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You can say the same thing about swords or series reps (I think).

People will find a way to complain.

Genres are a completely different matter from play styles and series IMO.

 

[Frostwraith]

So, someone on this very thread had the audacity to call The Legend of Zelda an RPG. Someone's getting Gannon-Banned.

(Yes, Ganon has a ban hammer and he's coming after you.)

No, the Zelda games aren't RPGs. (Except maybe Zelda II.)

First of all, there's no level-up system. Yes, you can get upgrades and items, but without a level-up system, there isn't the same sense of progression and character growth that RPGs always have.

It's not an action RPG either since there aren't any kind of combat skills. Look at a Tales game or Xenoblade and you'll see the combat system in Zelda is nothing like those.

There's no character party: Link is the only playable character. RPGs always have a party of multiple characters that have their own set of unique skills and role in combat (attacker, speedster, healer, tank, ...).

There's not a lot of character customization. No equipping of skills, very few different weapons (of the same type) and so on.

All those elements are important to decision making, an important component of RPGs.

Zelda lacks those and focuses almost exclusively on exploration and combat and therefore is an action-adventure game. Sure, there are some similarities to RPGs, especially as the series became more story-driven, but it lacks the classic elements of an RPG mentioned above.

Here is an article on RPGs and their sub-types: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RolePlayingGame

 

[Champ Gold]

You can say the same thing about swords or series reps (I think).

People will find a way to complain.

It ain't about moveset, weapon or genre it comes from

It's all about aesthetics, it's all about the look.

East vs West
USA/Europe vs Japan
Cartoons vs Anime

That's what it draws down to, if it ain't atleast western influenced then it's bad. We can go back to that Awkward Zombie strip everytime but it's the truth

It just boils down to:

"I hate anime, these characters look anime, I don't want these characters in MY GAME"

I ain't attacking no one but it's the truth. It doesn't matter if it's realistic or cartoonish but if it looks like this:

They don't want it

 

[Spazzy_D]

TheAnvil The classic RPG defintiion is "a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world."

Metroid fits that as well as Zelda. So what makes one an RPG and one NOT an RPG? There must be a reason, right? Give us the guidlines or your list makes no sense.

 

[TheAnvil]

In that case.
Mario is a Role Play Game, you play the role of Mario in an established world of the Mushroom Kingdom.
The Last of Us is a Role Play Game, you play the role of Joel in an established post-apocalyptic world.
Metroid is an RPG, you play the role of Samus.

That's so broad, it can fit literally any game with an established world and protagonist and any level of immersion.

There are literally Mario RPG games, so whatever Straw Man you're trying to conjure up. It's kind of a ridiculous statement.

 

[Z25]

In Mario, you role play as a plumber, fighting the evil turtle to save the princess. Mario confirmed RPG

That would never happ...

Oh wait....

So, someone on this very thread had the audacity to call The Legend of Zelda an RPG. Someone's getting Gannon-Banned.

(Yes, Ganon has a ban hammer and he's coming after you.)

No, the Zelda games aren't RPGs. (Except maybe Zelda II.)

First of all, there's no level-up system. Yes, you can get upgrades and items, but without a level-up system, there isn't the same sense of progression and character growth that RPGs always have.

It's not an action RPG either since there aren't any kind of combat skills. Look at a Tales game or Xenoblade and you'll see the combat system in Zelda is nothing like those.

There's no character party: Link is the only playable character. RPGs always have a party of multiple characters that have their own set of unique skills and role in combat (attacker, speedster, healer, tank, ...).

There's not a lot of character customization. No equipping of skills, very few different weapons (of the same type) and so on.

All those elements are important to decision making, an important component of RPGs.

Zelda lacks those and focuses almost exclusively on exploration and combat and therefore is an action-adventure game. Sure, there are some similarities to RPGs, especially as the series became more story-driven, but it lacks the classic elements of an RPG mentioned above.

Here is an article on RPGs and their sub-types: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RolePlayingGame

So is the ban hammer, Gannondorf's final weapon in Hyrule Warriors Legends?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Anyone remember when Ramen was 10 for $1

I just went to the store. It was 3 for $1

 

[A Distant Demon]

$1,087,210
17,025 donators
when I checked. Just saving that number.

I kind of want to redownload Skullgirls now. .but i'm terrible and have no controller. and im missing most of the DLC :/
Such are the woes of a loser.

 

[Dravidian]

"RPG" is such a weirdly-defined term. Half the time I'm not sure what should be considered one and what shouldn't. Like, why is Fire Emblem considered an RPG series but Zelda isn't? Taking the "role-playing game" term literally, you play a much clearer role in Zelda games than you do in (most) Fire Emblem games.

Sometimes it seems like anything with leveling up and stat gains is considered an RPG, even though the term "role-playing game" says absolutely nothing about stats. Why? A first-person shooter is largely agreed to be a game where you shoot in first person. An action game is a game filled with action. An adventure game is one where you explore and adventure. In a puzzle game, you solve puzzles. But for some reason, a clear role is not what defines a role-playing game.

I can understand both sides of the argument for whether Zelda is or is not an RPG. It shares little to nothing in common with other well-known RPGs. However, it very clearly intends to drop you into a world as "you," which sounds to me like it should be the very essence of a role-playing game: a game where you play the main role.

Things only seem that way when you ignore the origins of the genre. The first rpg's were heavily stat based games with story akin to Dungeons and Dragons or Diablo. Ignoring or not knowing the history behind the genre causes a lot of context to be missed.

 

[Z25]

So who's ready for the New Gravity Falls Tonight?
I can't wait to see it, and see how it builds up to the finale!

 

[Dravidian]

$1,087,210
17,025 donators
when I checked. Just saving that number.

I kind of want to redownload Skullgirls now. .but i'm terrible and have no controller. and im missing most of the DLC :/
Such are the woes of a loser.

...but all of the dlc (aside from some colors) was free for a few months after their respective releases.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

There are literally Mario RPG games, so whatever Straw Man you're trying to conjure up. It's kind of a ridiculous statement.

Then why did you put Mario in the platformers then?

 

[Spazzy_D]

There are literally Mario RPG games, so whatever Straw Man you're trying to conjure up. It's kind of a ridiculous statement.

Just tell me what an RPG is. It should be easy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Anvil...If anything...You're the strawman by saying 'Mario has RPGs too' instead of simply explaining what defines an RPG, especially as again, you failed to put Mario on your RPG list. In Punch Out, you role play as Little Mac and your goal is to be the very best like no one ever was, is Punch Out an RPG?

 

[Z25]

Just tell me what an RPG is. It should be easy.

Now this is an RPG:

Spoiler

 

[Frostwraith]

It ain't about moveset, weapon or genre it comes from

It's all about aesthetics, it's all about the look.

East vs West
USA/Europe vs Japan
Cartoons vs Anime

That's what it draws down to, if it ain't atleast western influenced then it's bad. We can go back to that Awkward Zombie strip everytime but it's the truth

It just boils down to:

"I hate anime, these characters look anime, I don't want these characters in MY GAME"

I ain't attacking no one but it's the truth. It doesn't matter if it's realistic or cartoonish but if it looks like this:
View attachment 84414

They don't want it

Heaven forbid a Japanese game have Japanese-styled characters, am I right?

Smash has always had anime-styled characters anyway. Link and Pikachu are prime examples. Even more so in the case of Pokémon since the main character designer and the series' art director, Ken Sugimori, is also a manga artist and it shows.

The Zelda series always had anime and manga influence in the character designs. The earlier designs resemble 80's anime as much as the current designs better resemble modern anime.

Not to mention there can be a lot of variety in art styles within manga and anime in the first place.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Now this is an RPG:

Spoiler

Actually....

 

[TheAnvil]

TheAnvil The classic RPG defintiion is "a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world."

Metroid fits that as well as Zelda. So what makes one an RPG and one NOT an RPG? There must be a reason, right? Give us the guidlines or your list makes no sense.

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of RPG.

Zelda at the very least has character level-building elements such as heart upgrades through defeating bosses (or finding them or whatever), as well as an emphasis on dungeon-crawling and questing.

I guess you could class Zelda as a bit of a mixed bag. But saying it "isn't an RPG" is inherently wrong. Even Miyamoto considers Zelda an RPG.

Why do you think Zelda isn't doing well in Japan?

Well, I think a lot of people who bought the Wii are not necessarily the types of people who are interested in playing that kind of game. And a lot of the people who would want to play it [due to chronic shortages of the console] can't find a Wii! But mostly, I think it's that there are fewer and fewer people who are interested in playing a big role-playing game like Zelda.

Then why did you put Mario in the platformers then?

Probably because he's known as a platforming icon, and his moveset is primarily based on his appearances in platforming games. That may be why.

 

[Baskerville]

If a character doesn't have spiky hair or belt straps on random parts of their clothes, they aren't anime.
duh

 

[Deleted member]

Most RPGs nowadays aren't even true RPGs actually
They are just someone's headcanon that they had when they developed the game
Etrian Odyssey is the only true RPG nowadays by the definition of the genre's origins
So yeah, you bunch of casuals have been playing fake RPGs this whole time
But fear not, there is still time to redeem yourself, buy and play EO today!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well even if she's not in Smash we got our Half-Genie hero alongside Shovel Knight and the rest of Indivisible's cast.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Cutie Gwen]

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of RPG.

Zelda at the very least has character level-building elements such as heart upgrades through defeating bosses (or finding them or whatever), as well as an emphasis on dungeon-crawling and questing.

I guess you could class Zelda as a bit of a mixed bag. But saying it "isn't an RPG" is inherently wrong. Even Miyamoto considers Zelda an RPG.





Probably because he's known as a platforming icon, and his moveset is primarily based on his appearances in platforming games. That may be why.

Miyamoto thought story wasn't important in Paper Mario

 

[Spazzy_D]

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of RPG.

Zelda at the very least has character level-building elements such as heart upgrades through defeating bosses (or finding them or whatever), as well as an emphasis on dungeon-crawling and questing.

I guess you could class Zelda as a bit of a mixed bag. But saying it "isn't an RPG" is inherently wrong. Even Miyamoto considers Zelda an RPG.

Metroid has Energy Tank power ups that are inherintly identical in function to Zelda hearts. It also has a progression based power up system, where you become more powerful and can access new areas by upgrading your suit.

How is Zelda an RPG but not Metroid?

 

[Z25]

Actually....

I was actually going to post this as both came up as Bomberman RPGs.

And that green thing looks an awful lot like kirby.

Miyamoto thought story wasn't important in Paper Mario

Ironic considering how in depth and popular the first 3 games stories are.

 

[TheAnvil]

Metroid has Energy Tank power ups that are inherintly identical in function to Zelda hearts. It also has a progression based power up system, where you become more powerful and can access new areas by upgrading your suit.

How is Zelda an RPG but not Metroid?

Metroid features elements of platforming, shooting, role playing and a whole host of other stuff. Which is why I put it under the debateable section. As far as I remember, it doesn't feature dungeon crawling or questing, so as far as I'm concerned Zelda fits the RPG moniker far more appropriately.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Things only seem that way when you ignore the origins of the genre. The first rpg's were heavily stat based games with story akin to Dungeons and Dragons or Diablo. Ignoring or not knowing the history behind the genre causes a lot of context to be missed.

So what? Am I wrong in saying that RPGs aren't defined by RPing? I know the origins of the genre. It doesn't change my point.

 

[Champ Gold]

Heaven forbid a Japanese game have Japanese-styled characters, am I right?.

Smash has always had anime-styled characters anyway. Link and Pikachu are prime examples. Even more so in the case of Pokémon since the main character designer and the series' art director, Ken Sugimori, is also a manga artist and it shows.

The Zelda series always had anime and manga influence in the character designs. The earlier designs resemble 80's anime as much as the current designs better resemble modern anime.

Not to mention there can be a lot of variety in art styles within manga and anime in the first place.

It's not the issue of the designs because majority of franchises have so much anime influence but it's because it doesn't represent a western franchise. People want that western feel.

Look at Donkey Kong, it's best games were made in England and Texas. Metroid's jump to 3D was done in that same studio in Texas, Punch Out got resurgence in 2009 by a Canadian studio and F-Zero, Star Fox and Zelda sells more here than anywhere else.

People want those characters because they believe that almost every newcomer not named Little Mac, Megaman, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, DHD and Bowser Jr were for the Japanese audience

• Despite Xenoblade selling better in Europe than anywhere else
• Despite fans loving Fire Emblem in the west THANKS to Smash
• Despite how Uprising did strong in the West
• Despite Pokemon is....Pokemon

Nope, it's for the Japanese audience and the weeaboos. It's not like Cloud has a demand here in the west due to his franchise having a bigger foothold here than anywhere else and why the only people who care about Golden Sun are on THIS side of the pond.

#HackuraiHatesKRool

 

[Spazzy_D]

Metroid features elements of platforming, shooting, role playing and a whole host of other stuff. Which is why I put it under the debateable section. As far as I remember, it doesn't feature dungeon crawling or questing, so as far as I'm concerned Zelda fits the RPG moniker far more appropriately.

Fire Emblem doesn't have Dungeon Crawling, and it doesn't really have questing (especially the earlier games in the series).

It's ridculous that there isn't an actual definition for this supposed genre.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well even if she's not in Smash we got our Half-Genie hero alongside Shovel Knight and the rest of Indivisible's cast.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And on the topic, I think Shantae's outfit from Indivisible would be the perfect one for Smash.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Fire Emblem doesn't have Dungeon Crawling, and it doesn't really have questing (especially the earlier games in the series).

It's ridculous that there isn't an actual definition for this supposed genre.

Fire Emblem is an RPG? That's news to me.

 

[CannaFizz]

Shantae making it into Indivisible is great. Her, Shovel Knight and Juan would make an amazing team. Now the game just has to get funded.

Also, I feel like the term "RPG" is really nebulous. It's hard to think of a single distinct feature that doesn't exist in other genres. The actual "role playing" aspect isn't even necessary (see Final Fantasy 7, Paper Mario), and things like character-building and level elements aren't unique and appear in everything from action games to tower defense games.

Using RPG as a blanket term puts games like Skies of Arcadia in the same category as Skyrim or even Bloodborne. It's really misleading.

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder that game with RPG mechanics=/=RPG
Cave Story has a leveling system for your weapons but it's definitely not an RPG

 

[Spazzy_D]

Fire Emblem is an RPG? That's news to me.

THANK YOU! It has a leveling system, a weapon system, and anime inspired design and story sensibilities. But it's
BARELY an RPG. How can we call games RPGs when there's no standard definition? It's crazy that I can't find one.

 

[jahkzheng]

So this just happened.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

We need a Hank Hill emote

Only 11 days left to contribute? That's a shame. I might drop some of my Xenoblade money onto this and just wait until the next payday to finish my pre-order.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Watching Halo on the Game Grumps channel really makes me want to play the game again

I haven't played Halo since Reach

I really liked Reach, but I heard Halo 4 was dumb

And Halo 5 doesn't seem that interesting from what I've heard

 

[TheAnvil]

Fire Emblem doesn't have Dungeon Crawling, and it doesn't really have questing (especially the earlier games in the series).

It's ridculous that there isn't an actual definition for this supposed genre.

...Because there are different elements that make up RPGs. Zelda has some of them, Fire Emblem has others. At this point I feel like you're purposely trying to be condescending and I've wasted enough of my time here debating what is pretty ****ing simple logic. So I'm done with this debate.