Data Super Training: Charizard Frame Data Thread

[JOE!]

==Super Training==

Frame data is now up and accurate for 3.6, and its compatible with the PM Calculator!​

Simply copy/paste the move's data from Angle->WKB to the same area on the Calculator

Then, you'll need to input some things such as the move's lag (seen to the right on the Frame Data), the victim, their %, position and so on.

I added a location guide to BF for common spots, and you can also see Shield advantage/etc based on damage and lag of the move.

And then you'll be able to see Knockback in action!

Up close you can see where Ganon would end up at 25% damage with both +/- DI from a Sweet Spot Jab Tipper.

From afar, you can get more data such as frame advantage on hit and on block, as well as see the newly added camera boundaries in green.


http://www.mediafire.com/download/ayctrm9pjmgpea2/FrameDataPkg.zip

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Amazing, and i love you for this!

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

how did you get all these hit boxes? I want to make my own personal Rich Text Document containing all the hitbox data for every character

 

[metroid1117]

This is looking amazing, thanks Joe.

 

[JOE!]

Smashes added, Dsmash is the only one with IASA frames, weird.

 

[bubbaking]

Nice stuff. Any chance we could get frame advantages on any of these moves?

 

[JOE!]

Hmm, how would I check that with BBox?

 

[JOE!]

Aerials are up...

Are people sleeping on Bair? It's his fastest aerial overall, and every hitbox has that "radial" KB to it which means to could be spaced a ton of ways...

 

[metroid1117]

My problem with BAir is that while the KB angle is good, the KB for non-sweetspotted BAir is pretty bad and it's not that easy to accurately space it mid-combo from the air because Charizard's aerial mobility isn't particularly good. It's great as an edgeguard though, if you just shffl' BAir so that it hits the edge (and it looks like the last two frames can poke below the edge and hit sweetspotters).

 

[Heroofhatz]

My problem with BAir is that while the KB angle is good, the KB for non-sweetspotted BAir is pretty bad and it's not that easy to accurately space it mid-combo from the air because Charizard's aerial mobility isn't particularly good. It's great as an edgeguard though, if you just shffl' BAir so that it hits the edge (and it looks like the last two frames can poke below the edge and hit sweetspotters).

All that being said, I still nair is better is better overall, since it hits below the stage pretty easily and also has a pretty good semi spike angle. Not the best, but properly spaced, it makes sweetspoting the ledge almost impossible, and a lot of characters in PM rely on that. And once you hit them with it, an edgehog isn't that hard (still wondering how to use flame canceling into the ledge effectively but ledge canceling or glide camping are both pretty good ledge tech anyway.)

 

[Heroofhatz]

Aerials are up...

Are people sleeping on Bair? It's his fastest aerial overall, and every hitbox has that "radial" KB to it which means to could be spaced a ton of ways...

Also I know this is a lot to ask already, but do you think you could also pull of the hurt box data on Zard JOE!? My friends is extremely curious (actually just salty) and would like to know just how disjointed everything is.

Thanks!

 

[regal68]

Can you add information about the color of the circles at the top? I'm not too familiar with bbox. I thought red was hitbox, yellow was hurtbox, and green was invincible. Is this correct? and does orange mean the hitbox and hurtbox are identical?

If this is the case, is uair completely without a hurtbox? Also why isn't jab marked as a disjoint as I'm pretty sure it is based on the hurtbox here http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/kiklis/ZardFrames/Jab2_zps8cb9f7d6.jpg
Is there a difference between the hurtboxes/hitboxes on dtilt/ftilt is that just the difference between invincibility and a disjoint? Why are the disjointed hitboxes the same color as the non-disjointed ones on nair?

Basically, what do all these colors mean? And yes, if you could pull hurtbox data and overlay it, it would be legendary. A redirect to a bbox tutorial would also work if you don't want to add the color info.

EDIT: You all are sleeping on ledgedrop bair. Zard can cover a lot of options and any trade with bair means a dead character and a live zard. Bair from the stage doesn't go very far below below the ledge compared to nair/dtilt.

 

[JOE!]

Also I know this is a lot to ask already, but do you think you could also pull of the hurt box data on Zard JOE!? My friends is extremely curious (actually just salty) and would like to know just how disjointed everything is.

Thanks!

As you can see, anything involving the latter half of his tail or his wing tips are disjointed. He also has really obnoxious wing hurtboxes that cause some attacks to hit him in odd ways, similar to Mewtwo's tail hitbox almost, thanks to how his tumble animation has him upside-down for a good moment, allowing these big floating targets to be whacked.

Spoiler

Personally, I'd like them to be like this

 

[metroid1117]

Can we get a mod to sticky this? It's an incredibly useful resource to have and I'd hate to see it be forgotten.

 

[JOE!]

Man, I still need to finish specials...

Dunno if I should really do throws though.... I have this to just finish (nothign changed from the 3.0 update thankfully) and the entire Ivy one to revamp, but the throws dont seem like they'd need exact frame data just KB angles and damage or such...

Hm, I should list the Base KB and KB growth too, show which moves are stronger / etc

 

[Oatmeal.]

Once this gets specials, it definitely deserves a sticky.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Can we get a mod to sticky this? It's an incredibly useful resource to have and I'd hate to see it be forgotten.

just report a post asking for me, that you want whatever thread stickied and I'll do it for you.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, looks like i have to wait to fix BBox's issue with PM Characters before I can update the images for this and the Ivy thread....

Also, thanks Aerodrome

 

[Heroofhatz]

Looks like Photobucket destroyed all of the photos... but maybe it's just me

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah i cant see any data whatsoever. not even any of the information.

 

[JOE!]

Danmit, gotta pay to get more bandwidth *grumble*

 

[JOE!]

There, fixed it

 

[G13_Flux]

awesome i can see it now

 

[CourageHound]

This is amazing. Question though; are Zard's wings transcendent like they are in brawl when using up smash?

 

[JOE!]

... actually, did any of his throws / specials change in 2.6 -> 3.0?

 

[Heroofhatz]

... actually, did any of his throws / specials change in 2.6 -> 3.0?

idk, ask @ metroid1117

 

[metroid1117]

... actually, did any of his throws / specials change in 2.6 -> 3.0?

From the Changelist:
- FAir bone invincibility reduced to the duration of the active frames of the hitbox
- Forward throw animation tweaked
- Up B has less hangtime at the apex

 

[JOE!]

Ok, so I can use the 2.6 Zard that still works in BBox then for all intents and purposes, sweet

 

[Mera Mera]

Nice stuff. Any chance we could get frame advantages on any of these moves?

@ JOE! You can use this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/ to calculate frame advantage. Aerials are a bit weird though since it depends more on when you hit them and how close you are to the ground when you hit them ect. For grounded moves the frame advanage only changes if the hitboxes reach certain distances over time, like with f-smash for Zard. Otherwise you normally assume that the move hit at the first possible frame. So it's:

Shield_Stun - (IASA_Frame - Frame_Move_Hits)
(or use the Frame_Move_Ends if there's no IASA)

Edit: I can't see the aerial images. Anyone else having this problem?

Also I totally missed thread until recently. Thanks a ton JOE!

I'll list a range for most moves since the hitboxes move over time and it's conceivable that you could hit a shield late with some of them. In parentheses I'll list the frames you'd hit with to get the following frame advantage so you can compare the frame advantage to the animations in JOE!'s pictures.

Jab: (5-9) -21 to -17

Dash Attack: (10-13) -18 to -15 and (14-20) -15 to -9
@ JOE! I think you made an error for active frames of damage 1, since you say it's active 10-23, but damage 2 is active 14-20.

f-tilt: (9-12) -15 to -12

u-tilt: (8) -20 and (9-10) -19 to -18 and (11-20) -18 to -9
I separated the frame 8 simply because it's much lower than frame 9, so if you're hitting someone on a platform frame 9, at -19 frame advantage is probably what you want to look at. Also I assumed that frames 11-20 were the frames of lower damage(?)

d-tilt:
sourspot: (8-14) -22 to -16
sweetspot: (8-14) -21 to -15
Note that with d-tilt, I think the Z-axis can play a role and you hitting with the move later than the active frames. I think I heard this from @Kink-Link5 (If you can confirm)

tldr for tilts and jab: they aren't very safe on shield. That said they have good burst range, so that doesn't make them useless in neutral.

@ JOE! I can do the rest later if you want, but I really should get back to studying for now I might not come back to this until the 26th (my actuary exam), but if you want it done sooner, the above thread should be enough to get that accomplished.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, been tight on time / etc on my end, so I'm going to post the raw data for the moves I'm missing, then do pics later:

FLAMETHROWER:
Start Lag: 1-18, then transitions to "infinite mode"
End lag: 1-36, *POSSIBLE* IASA after frame 15, not sure on that but the data says there is some action at that frame.

HEAT WAVE:
Start Lag: 1-20
HW part 1: Frames 21-24, Inner hit deals 15%, outer hit deals 4% (total of 19%), Sends straight away or at a 30* angle
HW part 2: Frames 25-27, Inner hit deals 13%, outer hit deals 3% (total of 16%)
HW part 3: Frames 28-30, Inner hit deals 11%, outer hit deals 2% (total of 13%)
HW part 4: Frames 31-33, Inner hit deals 9%, outer hit deals 1% (total of 10%)
End lag: 34-66, Can grab the edge starting at frame 45, IASA at frame 59

FIRE SPIN (ground):
Start Lag: 1-3, invincible frames 1-4
Part 1: Frame 4-6 = two hitsboxes on your body that deal "radial" KB and 11%
Part 2: Frame 6-30 = large body hitbox that hits away at a diagonal for 9%
Part 2.5: Frames 9-30 = small head hitbox for 10% and directly vertical KB
End lag: 31-62

FIRE SPIN (air):
Start Lag: 1-8
Part 1: Frame 9-30 = a head hitbox for vertical KB and 12%, and a body hitbox for 9% and diagonal KB cover you
Part 2: Frame 19 = the head hitbox weakens to only 9%, less KB
End lag: 31-62, can grab edge after frame 38

FLY (ground):
Start Lag: 1-60, (charge time)
End lag: 1-4 (Invincible!), until 59. IASA on frame 7. Given out normal jump-squat is 4 frames, this is technically a 3 frame jump given the 1st 4 are invincible?

FIRE SPIN (Glair):
Start Lag: 1-4, (Invincible frames 3-4!)
Part 1: Frames 5-8 = each frame is a body sized hitbox for 2% that drags foes into the next, totalling 8%
Part 2: 9-10 = a body sized hitbox on your torso and on your neck, making for a decent disjoint, for 9% and decent "radial" knockback
End lag: 11-30, frame 15 is the soonest you can edge grab from Glair, any time after frame 5 you can Waveland the move

 

[RKM]

Does anyone know how many frames of landing lag glair has?

 

[JOE!]

Does anyone know how many frames of landing lag glair has?

Glair has 18 frames of lag when you don't waveland, when you do waveland it is like 8-9 IIRC

 

[JOE!]

Due to BBox not showing hidden frame speed modifiers, I am going to hold out until debug mode is live and create a detailed update with Zard's in-game debug stuff.

 

[Sartron]

Due to BBox not showing hidden frame speed modifiers, I am going to hold out until debug mode is live and create a detailed update with Zard's in-game debug stuff.

Hidden frame speed modifiers?
Are you talking about modifiers in the codeset or in the fighter file? I can provide you with a list of these if you would like.

You can also look at the memory using Dolphin which will tell you when a frame speed modifier is occuring and what its modifier value is.

FitPokeLizardon.pac
- LandingHeavy
- GlideAttack
- GlideEnd
- AttackDash
- AttackS3S
- AttackS4Start
- AttackHi4
- AttackLw4
- AttackAirN
- AttackAirF
- AttackAirHi
- AttackAirLw
- CatchDash
- CatchAttack
- Win3
- SpecialHi
- SpecialAirHi
- SpecialLwHold

RSBE01.gct
- AttackAirHi
- AttackAirLw
- CaptureJump
- PassiveCeil
- GlideStart
- LandingAirN
- LandingAirF
- LandingAirB
- LandingAirHi
- LandingAirLw

If you need the exact timings and modifying values that is also possible. Feel free to use this or continue to wait until 3.5.

 

[LavaLatte]

Hidden frame speed modifiers?
Are you talking about modifiers in the codeset or in the fighter file? I can provide you with a list of these if you would like.

You can also look at the memory using Dolphin which will tell you when a frame speed modifier is occuring and what its modifier value is.

Spoiler

FitPokeLizardon.pac
- LandingHeavy
- GlideAttack
- GlideEnd
- AttackDash
- AttackS3S
- AttackS4Start
- AttackHi4
- AttackLw4
- AttackAirN
- AttackAirF
- AttackAirHi
- AttackAirLw
- CatchDash
- CatchAttack
- Win3
- SpecialHi
- SpecialAirHi
- SpecialLwHold

RSBE01.gct
- AttackAirHi
- AttackAirLw
- CaptureJump
- PassiveCeil
- GlideStart
- LandingAirN
- LandingAirF
- LandingAirB
- LandingAirHi
- LandingAirLw

If you need the exact timings and modifying values that is also possible. Feel free to use this or continue to wait until 3.5.

Quick question, any idea what program the PM dev team use to edit Charizard's file? I'm super old-school and only know that PSA v2.1 wasn't capable of touching any of pkmn trainer's stuff. I personally used OpenSA to check out Charizard's values but from what I know that program can't edit. What do they use now? Thanks :D

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wtf is radial knockback. The star is the Sakurai angle which just means it's horizontal at really low knockback (under 32 KB i think) on grounded opponent and ~45° at anything above that or on airborne opponents.

 

[Mera Mera]

@ JOE! http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle

DrinkingFood is right in that what you describe as "radial knockback" is indeed a Sakurai angle. It's important to note that:

- Against aerial opponents, it has a 45 degree angle regardless of percents
- At >= 32.1 knockback (which is pretty low) it has a 44 degree angle against grounded opponents
- From 0 to 32 knockback it has a 0 degree angle on grounded opponents... while this is technically a semispike, but since it can only be used on grounded opponents, they will simply edge slip and it will never successfully semispike someone.

Depending on the base knockback and knockback growth, the period where the hitbox hits at a 0 degree angle on grounded opponents could be incredibly small (especially against lighter opponents). To give you an idea of how low 32.1 knockback is, you don't enter tumble after knockback unless you receive >= 80 knockback. >= 80 knockback is also required in order for you to be in a tech situation when you land.

 

[JOE!]

Huh, I thought the sakurai angle was shown as hitboxes with the direction going 45*. I noticed things like Bair that had the "Star" directions would have variable angles, so I thought it could be like, any direction. Thus "radial"

 

[Mera Mera]

Oh, I should clarify that I made the assumption that sakurai angles work the same way in PM as they do in Melee, which I'm not positive on.

I'm pretty sure it is indeed a sakurai angle because I remember when I was talking to Metroid about Zard's grounded up b he mentioned it hit at a sakurai angle. There might be more special angles that I'm not aware of (?), but I'm fairly sure that at least in this case they are indeed sakurai angles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah Sakurai angles work the same in PM as in Melee, that's what the stars are. There's no such thing as radial knockback, but there is something close called the autolink angle, which sends the opponent in whatever direction the user is moving. It's only ever used for multihit moves tho.