Data Super Training: Charizard Frame Data Thread

[Blank Mauser]

Given that thread is correct. Actual values of shieldstun would be based on damage %. I also checked values of hitlag. Frames are calculated from time it takes for Fox to spotdodge out of shield using c-stick. Landing lag is calculated starting first frame of touching the ground. All L-canceled.

Charizard Aerial Frame Advantage

Shieldstun: (Staled/Regular/With Hitlag)

Nair: Sweetspot
Landing Lag: 12 Frames
Shieldstun: 6/6/11 Frames
-6

Fair: Outermost hitbox
Landing Lag: 13 Frames
Shieldstun: 8/9/18 Frames
-4

Bair: Sweetspot
Landing Lag: 11 Frames
Shieldstun: 7/8/12 Frames
-3

Uair: Bottom hitbox
Landing Lag: 10 Frames
Shieldstun: 6/6/10 Frames
-4

Dair: One hitbox
Landing Lag: 10 frames
Shieldstun: 8/9/17 Frames
-1

This is of course if you do the attack at the lowest height possible. Meaning your actual advantage will very likely be less than this.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, now to figure bout debug mode

 

[Heroofhatz]

Still no safe on block moves...
dang

 

[DrinkingFood]

-1 is safe on shield lol. Fair and Bair would also be safe on shield with good spacing, -4 and -3 are waaayy too few frames to punish at that distance. Technically those numbers would be safe to spotdodge/roll away even with close spacing, but since they are sweetspots you can't GET close spacing with those moves.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yeah keep in mind that unlike most games, you really only need to be around -6 to be safe from all shield grabs. Safe is quite different from advantageous though. And Zard is going to be too far for most shieldgrabs on the hitboxes I posted.

Its quite easy to do some numbers on the sourspots if you wanted now that I've listed landing lag frames. I probably plan to do IASA frames next when I have time unless someone is already volunteering.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Also keep in mind that these are the most ideal values, most of this stuff is much more negative unless you use it the frame before you land.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's also notable though that being frame perfect on action OoS is harder than being frame perfect against someone's shield. If your *something* is frame safe against their shield in theory, chances are it is in practice, too, unless you are doing it badly and they are reacting well. Now that we have debug mode, practicing optimal aerial spacing with relation to the ground should be at its easiest. Just turn on hitboxes, and aerial such that your red circles are at their furthest reach closest to the ground.
If for some reason you NEED to aerial at a certain height, well that's another story.

 

[Heroofhatz]

It's also notable though that being frame perfect on action OoS is harder than being frame perfect against someone's shield. If your *something* is frame safe against their shield in theory, chances are it is in practice, too, unless you are doing it badly and they are reacting well. Now that we have debug mode, practicing optimal aerial spacing with relation to the ground should be at its easiest. Just turn on hitboxes, and aerial such that your red circles are at their furthest reach closest to the ground.
If for some reason you NEED to aerial at a certain height, well that's another story.

I would actually disagree with that, reacting OOS isn't necessarily harder than being frame perfect against someone's shield.

The problem isn't being frame perfect against someone's shield, it's about spacing, both the actual attack spacing and the timing in your jump to make the move hit as close to you landing as possible. The problem with that is that if you want to wait until right until you hit the ground out of a short hop even with fast falling, you will have to wait longer than you want, which gives your opponent an opening to counter attack. In with shield stun and with how easy it is to see a lot of animations of aerial moves your opponent can easily counter your advances OOS. It's kind of like DI-ing, you know you're going to get hit so you push a direction. If you're blocking an you know you're going to get hit, you just wait for shield stun to end and WD OOS or whatever to counter. That is all theoretical, and in all practicality, it is hard for both parties, but shield stun is definitely a feel that all smash players know how to get out of as soon as they possibly can.

I'm not saying that Zard can't be safe on block, but that has always been one of his weakest aspects of his game. To be safe you usually have to do aerials at a distance that makes it so that you are reset to neutral if you hit their shield. You don't ever really get a ton of pressure off of it. That's why his grab game is so amazing, and why his speed is such a great asset. And why freaking glide tomahawking was the best thing ever

 

[Heroofhatz]

I guess what Blank said is true tho. We might be safe on shield, but we aren't at an advantage on shield. I guess my terminology needs some work

 

[Strong Badam]

Ok, now to figure bout debug mode

Any luck? Would love to see this and the Ivysaur thread updated to reflect 3.5's changes.

 

[JOE!]

Any luck? Would love to see this and the Ivysaur thread updated to reflect 3.5's changes.

These will be updated once I am done with the much more universal stage/knockback stuff!

(also bugpatch johns...)

 

[Phoca017]

Dsmash starts faster than jab, seriously? O.O

 

[metroid1117]

Dsmash starts faster than jab, seriously? O.O

"Start frame" is the frame at which the move begins charging, "Active frames" is when the hitbox actually comes out. Jab is active from frames 5-9 while DSmash is active from frames 16-23, so jab is 11 frames faster than DSmash.

 

[_Chrome]

Nice frame data! Is there any chance that we'll get any data on the grabs and throws?

 

[JOE!]

Nice frame data! Is there any chance that we'll get any data on the grabs and throws?

Unfortunately this is out of date, I will however force time into updating this after 3.6

 

[_Chrome]

Unfortunately this is out of date, I will however force time into updating this after 3.6

Of course! It really amazes me how much effort you put into studying frame data! I can safely say that on the behalf of all of us that we appreciate it very much!!!

 

[JOE!]

Good news, everyone! I got the frame data sorted out! Better yet, I also made it compatible with the PM Calculator!

Simply copy/paste the move's data from Angle->WKB to the same area on the Calculator

Then, you'll need to input some things such as the move's lag (seen to the right on the Frame Data), the victim, their %, position and so on.

I added a location guide to BF for common spots, and you can also see Shield advantage/etc based on damage and lag of the move.

And then you'll be able to see Knockback in action!

Up close you can see where Ganon would end up at 25% damage with both +/- DI from a Sweet Spot Jab Tipper.

From afar, you can get more data such as frame advantage on hit and on block, as well as see the newly added camera boundaries in green.


http://www.mediafire.com/download/ayctrm9pjmgpea2/FrameDataPkg.zip

 

[JOE!]

Archiving....

Spoiler

==Super Training==

In this thread is a collection of pictures detailing every one of CHARIZARD'S hitboxes (the area where his moves actually land) and frame data (the amount of time they are out, and when the attacks appear, etc). To view his attacks, simply click open the box for each section.

How to read:​

• Active frames: The amount of time in frames the attack lingers. The frame on the left is also the frame on which the attack appears. (1 Frame = 1/60th of a second!)
• Damage: The amount of damage (%) the attack deals. Highlighted damage corresponds to highlighted hitboxes of the same color.
• End lag: The amount of time between the moment the last hitbox disappears, and when the move ends completely.
  IASA: "Interruptable-as-soon-as", meaning the move can be ended by another action from this frame onward.

==Standards==

Spoiler

Jab

Dash Attack

Ftilt

Angled

Utilt

Vs Usmash Height

Dtilt

Every hitbox except the one closest to Zard's body is DISJOINTED

==Smashes==

Spoiler

Fsmash

Sourspot

Usmash

Charge Damage:
7% / 15.4%
Total Damage:
16% / 22.4%
Dsmash

Charge Damage:
19.6% / 16.8%

==Aerials==

Spoiler

Nair

Breakdown:

Spoiler

Fair

Bair

Spoiler

Uair

Dair

​

==More to come...==​

 

[JayMan-X]

JOE if I wasn't the man I was, I'd kiss ya.
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