Super Smash Bros. Hex - A Smash 64 Balance Mod

[suiken_2mieu]

Link is not great in most smash games. I play him in every game and get frustrated when he has trouble killing, or keeping up physically with the rest of the cast. PM Link is my favorite Link (actually PM is my favorite iteration of all the characters in that game for the rest of series) because it got rid of a lot of his short comings while still having to be creative to use him effectively.

So I like this projects' ideas a lot. If it makes all the characters viable, it will be a much more fun game.

As a side note, SD Remix is pretty fun to me, for many of the same reasons PM is fun to me. I feel like every match isn't a long chore where you keep adding chip damage until you get off an Up+B or dair with link.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Link is not great in most smash games. I play him in every game and get frustrated when he has trouble killing, or keeping up physically with the rest of the cast. PM Link is my favorite Link (actually PM is my favorite iteration of all the characters in that game for the rest of series) because it got rid of a lot of his short comings while still having to be creative to use him effectively.

So I like this projects' ideas a lot. If it makes all the characters viable, it will be a much more fun game.

As a side note, SD Remix is pretty fun to me, for many of the same reasons PM is fun to me. I feel like every match isn't a long chore where you keep adding chip damage until you get off an Up+B or dair with link.

that IS what I hope to achieve if I do it well. Now I just gotta find a good method of doing it effectively and I'll be on my way.

 

[Spurdo]

Yeah everyone calls everything a gimmick, without giving an explanation as to what that is, why it's bad or what the gimmicks actually are and how they aren't in the other games.
I was gonna do a long rant on this. But this is honestly irrelevant and I only plan to modify numbers, not add functionality to the majority of moves. And judging by your "mains" list you barely even play 64, so it's not much of a concern to you at this point I would imagine. Yes there are a few things I'd like to add for functionality purposes (like the Ness attack property and speed buff of the move), but the whole point is to try and make them as "basic" as possible without changing a character's feel or playstyle.
Yes, I do plan to modify hitboxes in terms of size, damage, KBG etc, but there's going to be very little in the way of actually adding in new moves that won't be heavily tested for their usefulness relative to their strengths and all that.
Also, just an fyi. I don't know what version of Project M you've been looking at lately, because that might make the difference in what you're saying. The first few iterations of PM had a lot of... questionable things added in, and I mean a lot. But they weeded out most of the super stupid ones and toned down the ones they kept up until they stopped developing it a year ago. So maybe you're looking at an older version.

Gimmicks. Things that obviously forsake the simplicity of the game, are completely superfluous. Samus' ice mode, Zelda's playstyle revolving around her confusing reworked Din's fire, Lucario being a street fighter character for some reason. All of these things are completely unnecessary. But frankly, these are not Project M's biggest problem, and SD Remix is the same. It's making everybody good as the top tiers. Characters are given very bizarre, unnecessary buffs that cover their weaknesses and then some. I'm no Smash 64 expert, but Kirby and Pikachu in 64 have such strengths that make their weaknesses almost negligible. I completely understand why characters like Samus and Luigi deserve buffs but I don't understand why the stronger characters on the roster do not deserve nerfs

 

[RPGgrenade]

Gimmicks. Things that obviously forsake the simplicity of the game, are completely superfluous. Samus' ice mode, Zelda's playstyle revolving around her confusing reworked Din's fire, Lucario being a street fighter character for some reason. All of these things are completely unnecessary. But frankly, these are not Project M's biggest problem, and SD Remix is the same. It's making everybody good as the top tiers. Characters are given very bizarre, unnecessary buffs that cover their weaknesses and then some. I'm no Smash 64 expert, but Kirby and Pikachu in 64 have such strengths that make their weaknesses almost negligible. I completely understand why characters like Samus and Luigi deserve buffs but I don't understand why the stronger characters on the roster do not deserve nerfs

again, you haven't explained WHAT a gimmick is. Because it "forsakes the simplicity of the game" just isn't a useful definition because it's subjective what a gimmick even is in that case, and examples to explain it are never the best option for explanations. And if you say the PM characters are all as good as the top tiers, then again, I must emphasize, you clearly don't actually play it competitively. Because that is the thing everyone who DOESN'T play it says about the cast. As for the examples: Ice mode is near useless, the "confusing" Din's fire is literally just a fire mine with some extra control, and if your playstyle revolves solely around it you suck (zelda mains confirm), and the Lucario thing is because his ACTUAL original thing with damage strengthening encouraged playing badly, so they wanted to encourage playing well. It really doesn't seem like these are good examples because they're only "annoying" or "superfluous" when you look at them from a distance, because despite all this the characters you mentioned are still considered "bad" in Project M or only "mid-tier" at best.
And it's a good thing you aren't making this then, because in smash 64 the problem is most of the cast straight up can't use half their moves if they want to succeed or literally can never be put off-stage or they'll die.
The problem here what you consider a nerf. I plan to nerf Kirbies utilt by giving it more KGB so it combos less than it already does, because Kirby players rely on it too much, but I don't want to change the style of kirby players by outright making it useless. Same goes for its range and the range/hitstun of specific moves like fair and dair especially. But the thing is, I still want the games to feel like they already do in top level 64. As did the Project M Dev Team who wanted top level Project M to still feel like top level Melee. By nerfing the top tiers they'd have made it not as fast, not as responsive, and straight up not as hype, which is kinda the core of what keeps these games alive competitively speaking. And the only way to achieve a balanced cast while maintaining the hype the originals have is by nerfing top tiers as little as possible while buffing the lower tiers closer to their level.
However, in 64 the buffing of the characters does not really depend on their numbers and damage outputs nearly as much due to the hitstun (which I'm reducing, but not TOO much), but rather it mostly depends on their recovery capabilities, aerial game and grounded games. because punishing is pretty easy. So neutral, footsies, spacing and so forth are the main skills needed. So to compensate for certain things, some ranges will be increased, others decreased, some attacks made stronger, some weaker, and the recoveries of the cast buffed based on those who need it most (Link and Ness need a ****-ton of help there..)

 

[zeldasmokes]

oops I missed this one. The problem here is what you're describing isn't necessarily wrong, it just doesn't determine tier placings. It takes more skill to use Link than Kirby, for sure. But the fact that Kirby somehow manages to outrange Link's sword and most characters can just avoid or hit back his projectiles, as well as having a recovery that's not only predictable but extremely terrible, makes him exactly what I said, a bad character. I've mained Link in all the smash games, and it's no exception that he sucks in 64 because his recovery is absolutely terrible. The few other changes I'd like to add would simply allow for a bit more "equality" so that your skills actually reflect well. Because you have to be like 5 times more skilled than a Kirby opponent in order to beat him as Link, and that carries through a large amount of the cast. Which implies that your skill isn't being reflected well in your character. The idea of this project being your skill will make it a matter of matchup knowledge and skill, rather than the character flat out losing.

Hey, i really liked your post, and the fact that you went back to read what had already been said... good ****. <3

However i disagree with some points.
Kirbys attack shouldn't be making it though most Link's sword attacks in most cases, there is a couple acceptations to this, but for the most part Links sword reach actually op, you can make a bomb explode with your sword, without taking damage, without much lining up.

As much as i love Link i sort of stand by the decision made of nerfing his recovery and jumps and stuff from the jp version.
Gonna be honest most Kirby players i play against aren't exactly prepared for what they are about to deal with. I actually fair rather well against most Kirby players online.
A good falcon player is more threatening tbh.

As for pika, yes his recovery op, you look at a chart of best players and it's like everyone pika, i'm not denying he's powerful, i'm just sayin Link is viewed in a very shallow light by most professional communities.

inaccurately seems to be classified as low difficulty learning, and not an effective character.


I feel like this view also keeps people from even trying to main Link
With how differently you have to play him to, playing the game with any other character i feel like helps you understand basic mechanics more, but none of that is really applicable to Link.

Example say you only main Pika, or Falcon?
Don't play the other characters much.
Your maybe not quite to the same level, but still most likely a pretty good Fox, or Kirby player.

How would this person be as Link?
They probably wouldn't be very good in this case (again i'm not including those who obsesses over mastering each character perfectly)

Two big reasons for this i am talking about.

1.He's arguably the hardest character in the game to master, and as such if your not really good with him, he's not gonna be effective, think like Jiggly, but to a more extreme extent.

2.exp gain with other characters doesn't help you as much with Link as it does the other characters cus of how differently you have to play him.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Hey, i really liked your post, and the fact that you went back to read what had already been said... good ****. <3

However i disagree with some points.
Kirbys attack shouldn't be making it though most Link's sword attacks in most cases, there is a couple acceptations to this, but for the most part Links sword reach actually op, you can make a bomb explode with your sword, without taking damage, without much lining up.

As much as i love Link i sort of stand by the decision made of nerfing his recovery and jumps and stuff from the jp version.
Gonna be honest most Kirby players i play against aren't exactly prepared for what they are about to deal with. I actually fair rather well against most Kirby players online.
A good falcon player is more threatening tbh.

As for pika, yes his recovery op, you look at a chart of best players and it's like everyone pika, i'm not denying he's powerful, i'm just sayin Link is viewed in a very shallow light by most professional communities.

inaccurately seems to be classified as low difficulty learning, and not an effective character.


I feel like this view also keeps people from even trying to main Link
With how differently you have to play him to, playing the game with any other character i feel like helps you understand basic mechanics more, but none of that is really applicable to Link.

Example say you only main Pika, or Falcon?
Don't play the other characters much.
Your maybe not quite to the same level, but still most likely a pretty good Fox, or Kirby player.

How would this person be as Link?
They probably wouldn't be very good in this case (again i'm not including those who obsesses over mastering each character perfectly)

Two big reasons for this i am talking about.

1.He's arguably the hardest character in the game to master, and as such if your not really good with him, he's not gonna be effective, think like Jiggly, but to a more extreme extent.

2.exp gain with other characters doesn't help you as much with Link as it does the other characters cus of how differently you have to play him.

Long post...
Ok so... I get the feeling you might not have played against good players on console much or in a tournament setting. These things change a lot. The fact that some of Kirby's attacks DO make it past Link's disjoint is an issue. It just plain shouldn't. no other character can do this, except maybe donkey kong because he has ENORMOUS ARMS. But other than that no other character should be able to realistically beat out his disjoint with like a kick in place, which is what Kirby does. Making a bomb explode without getting hurt means nothing when it's only on the slowest aerial move he has. Up air gets beaten by Kirby's dair sometimes, which is bull****. And as for the recovery nerf... why? Why would that be necessary, especially when in all the games afterwards, they made it much much better and it's still not that great. What benefit would you possibly have to having a recovery that sucks so much when so much of the competitive part focuses on getting back to the stage? It makes no sense to me and you don't even justify it with a reason. Just because you fair well against them online doesn't mean you'd fair well against them in person. There's a huge difference. And the top players of Link do terribly versus Kirby. Isai is literally the only person who does OK with Link. He doesn't do well, he does OK.
And do you know why people view link so shallowly? Because learning him takes so much effort and winning with him takes so much more above that. It's not something a competitive player will do if they want to win. Period. That's all it is.
All that stuff you mention about experience won't help you against a Falcon, a Fox or a Kirby who is as effective with their own character as you are with Link.
Falcons that are that effective will kill you in a single grab, and won't miss, and will not get caught easily by your projectiles. Foxes will get you from a few lasers, then straight to a grab, throw you off-stage, and a shine spike if they're actually good. And a Kirby WILL kill you from a single pivot utilt which BEATS your sword. And don't give me that crap about projectiles making the difference, they change some things, but because of that terrible recovery and dying from a single hit pretty much, it won't matter. Just try playing against a good player at a tournament and you'll realize just how helpless you are. Boosting Link's recovery in 64 made it so it was actually winnable for once. To a lot of Link players who have tried it out. I believe Link is good, but without a good recovery.. he can't shine at all. Because that's the kind of game this is.

 

[suiken_2mieu]

Would you consider increasing Link's air speed? As I've been playing more Smash 64, I find it hard to place aerials accurately with Link. I'm trying to space links moves so that they are at the tip of his hitboxes because his moves are pretty slow, and his disjoint is most useful spaced that way.

EDIT: I don't know if this is useful, but I play link very defensively to avoid being combo'd to death, or hell just being slightly shoved off the edge and dying.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Would you consider increasing Link's air speed? As I've been playing more Smash 64, I find it hard to place aerials accurately with Link. I'm trying to space links moves so that they are at the tip of his hitboxes because his moves are pretty slow, and his disjoint is most useful spaced that way.

EDIT: I don't know if this is useful, but I play link very defensively to avoid being combo'd to death, or hell just being slightly shoved off the edge and dying.

My priorities with Link are increasing the range or killing power of his sword attacks a decent amount, increase the amount he can use his projectiles, and with increasing his recovery ability a lot, including bomb recovery. Increasing his air speed may make him too powerful along with these changes. If anything they compliment both offensive and the defensive strategy you like to employ.

 

[RPGgrenade]

BTW I am currently in the process of modifying the hitboxes of several attacks, as well as standard properties, and I'm implementing the gameshark codes as part of the ROM itself, once I'm done and have had it tested out a fair amount I'll update the first post so it contains all the necessary information... of which there's a LOT to go over.

 

[RPGgrenade]

I have updated the first post with the proper information. It's not fully ready yet, but I can let you try if you PM me.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Also, I have managed to make it fully compatible with the 19XX build. which honestly doesn't surprise me seeing as they are affecting completely different things. Not sure what to called the 19XX one though so it's just 'Smash Bros Hex 19XX' for now. If someone would like to try it, please PM me.

 

[hiro jimenez]

SIGUE CON EL PROYECTO (Y)

 

[Just a random scrub]

(Nods)

I really like the idea of balancing Smash 64. I also really like the ideas you have for your project thus far, and I would definitely like to see more of this mod.

Tiny questions:

1: How'd you obtain knockback values for the game? I've heard they're virtually impossible to find (unless I'm just a dumb white kid. Well, technically, I'm mostly black, but still)
2: Why did you decide to make Luigi a ground based fighter and Mario an air based one? Given Luigi's the strong jumper of the duo, I'd figure it would make sense if he were the air fighter. Not a complaint, just a question
3:Just saying, I think it would be kinda cool to see some of Luigi's moves have electrical effects (like maybe his up special has an electric hit upon connecting with the strong hit).

 

[RPGgrenade]

Answering 1: There's a list of the data floating around if you look hard enough, so that's not so difficult if you have a little dedication. It's here on the forum.
2: I decided to make him a ground fighter based on the fact Mario already IS the aerial fighter, a large vertical jump does not an aerial fighter make, and Luigi tends to have better ground options and OoS stuff to begin with, as well as how his fireball travels, all these aspects made me think he'd fit a grounded style more.
3: Electric effects to moves have had a history of ****ing up with things like DI, which is a big issue for top level players, electric moves are more survivable or escapable, that's the current standard. So I'll be removing the electric ones on Ness (replace with fire or something that does nothing) and in the same way not add anything on Luigi.

 

[Sorentobr]

Hi, I'm interested in playing. my friends and I play once or twice a month on a real N64. characters like Link are out because it is easy to be defeated. I'm using the Google Translator. I'm going to play your changes and I'm happy for your interest.

 

[SolarZ]

Thanks a lot RPGgrenade! I really appreciate what you're doing. The post was so polite and well thought out, I didn't think anyone would flame you or complain, but they still found a way to nag at you. I really wanted this as a Yoshi main who's friends all play as Pikachu and Kirby. I found it difficult to win with moves like Kirbys Utilt and Pikachu's grab and such. Thanks for putting up with these people and creating this!

 

[ReimuHakuraTheNessMain]

Might I suggest a few things? Make Jiggs's up special grab ledge, Ness be able to grab the ledge with his back turned (since that always happens to me when I'm directly below the stage and want to go straight up), make Mario and Luigi's down special work like they did in the other games, and have Jiggs's rising pound work like it did in Melee. That'd be great.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I really like this mod, shame the 64 Community hates anything that involves changing it.

Have you thought of reusing Luigi and Samus's unused hitboxes on their Dash Attack and Up Aerial (respectively)? I didn't see any signs of you reusing them.

 

[Jorolesvaldo]

That looks pretty cool man. Can i get one of these roms to test it myself? Email: jorolesvaldo@gmail.com

 

[Tactical_B]

Uh, how do I PM you?