Super Smash Bros. Hex - A Smash 64 Balance Mod

[RPGgrenade]

Hi guys. I'm working on a little something, and would like your advice if you have any (even outright saying I should stop is welcome). But perhaps it'd be best to introduce myself a little bit.

I'm RPGgrenade, and I'm relatively new to the competitive scene in smash. However, I've dipped my toes in just about all the games' competitive scenes, from 64, to melee, brawl, PM, smash 4 and even smash flash 2. I've been impressed and amazed by the skill, different possible combos and speed that each game provides in its own right when players reach the higher levels of play.

I'm also a software engineering student and aspiring game designer, so seeing how the meta of the games has gotten from something so simple to such complexity has been entrenched in my mind ever since I got into the competitive side of smash a few years back. However, I think I've found my preference in both Project M and Smash 64. But for some reason I've been drifting away from 64 entirely, and I wasn't sure why.

For me at least, it was about the imbalance. As I'm sure you all know there's a huge series of debates over which character is better or worse and whether the game is super unbalanced or more balanced than the others. While it's true it is far more balanced than say melee or Brawl, I feel it isn't quite as balanced as Project M, and Smash 4 is starting to catch up to that it appears. The reason 64 has remained as possibly the most balanced is simply because of a lack of a varied cast. The larger the cast, the harder to balance for competitive play. Project M excels at this because it was the main intent since they began to work on it until it had to stop, creating what most would consider a pretty competitively balanced game overall.

This imbalance doesn't sit well with me as a game designer and having a lot of nostalgic feelings for this game. The low tier players need a lot more work to catch up to the high tier players, regardless of skill level, and that seemed to be a bit unfair (as I'm sure many have complained about Kirby's utilt and such.) And that's why I started my little project.

Super Smash Bros. Hex (Beta)
​

As Madao has so kindly provided us with his gameshark codes, and I looked into what has been made, I got the idea for this project.

I have two primary goals:

1. Balance the gameplay by buffing up the lower tiers and reducing excessively powerful options of the top tiers.
2. Changing some universal rules to speed up the game.

If somehow I have violated these somewhat objective rules, I'll have to reconsider my changes and see what can be done.
The reasons for these goals and rules may seem obvious to some and unclear to others.
For the first goal, I'm seeking to make the tier lists more difficult to establish, essentially making it so the tier list depends on the players rather than just the characters.
For the second goal, It is merely a consequence of the previous goal, as some characters benefit greatly from universal speed buffs, while other characters were barely affected. This goal however must be kept as a secondary consideration overall

I hope I have made my intentions clear and at this point no one is shaking their heads at me, so I will address what I believe to be some standard responses before stating what changed I've made :

​

Spoiler

"The 19XX hack already exists"
Yes, it does in fact exist. It is a great hack and was worked on extensively, and I think it deserves all the praises it gets. However it is a tournament/practice tool for stage selection and debugging, not a character and gameplay balance hack. They are not the same things and I'm just trying to make that difference.

"People have tried to balance the game before and failed"
I'm not entirely sure where I heard this exactly but it seemed to be the case that this was attempted at some point but was never full realized. I have yet to see evidence of this but it has been talked about. I guess the meaning behind this statement is partially due to having little faith it can be executed properly and partly because they believe the community wouldn't embrace any changes made. And I'm perfectly ok with both, actually. I don't expect smash 64 to suddenly change because I made a bunch of tweaks from a game designer's perspective. I'm merely sharing this for insight and for my own fun with my friends. Sharing is caring :3
Edit:I believe I have seen one of the possibly mentioned attempts at this, but they were never at this scale.

"Smash 64 is perfect the way it is."
If you believe this to be the case be my guest and ignore my claims, but I simply believe this game can be made to be much more fun than it already is without ruining what it already has, due to the fact that the time of its creation didn't have much in the way of testing what it is we currently do with the game. It can be improved upon without hurting it.

"The characters in Smash 64 are perfectly balanced, there's no need to change them."
There's no 'need' to do anything regarding the game if everyone is perfectly content with how it is. But from what I've seen, what I hear and from the statistics of characters used in tournament, there is something to be desired from just about every character, the lower the tier the more likely it is that they have something left to be desired. This is all subjective, and can be debated at length, but I think the current state of tournaments and character usage speaks for itself, as most all players I've tested this with have seen greater satisfaction from the changes I've made.
​

I may have missed a few but these were the general remarks made when someone was against the ideas, each are valid, but highly subjective, or pessimistic, or simply red herrings that don't address what it is I want to do. So now I will share the changes (that are highly inspired from the GameShark Codes Collection topic) for which I have chosen. I will also disclose the ideas I've had in mind for the characters I believe haven't had enough changes to them or could be improved upon.

Universal Changes​

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Changes made to the physics engine of the game itself, generally allowing for harder to pull off combos for more escape potential, but also for more combo capabilities overall.

​

Spoiler

AI Buffs
Having better AI(at least mildly so) will greatly increase the effectiveness of solo training, though not by much. Delving into this area is a bit complex and I'd rather stick to balancing rather than AI for the moment. But for now some slight CPU improvements are pretty useful.

(Continuous Recovery Attempts)
⦁ Value:1520 -> 2400
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Fast Fall Aerials: (Might remove)
Fast fall aerials are fantastic for making combos hit more often, and ground game scarier, this will enhance the abilities of the cast, while extremely enhancing the power of those in the lower tiers with higher short hops overall.

(Every Aerial Fastfall capacity)
⦁ Value:90e0 -> 9160
​

Reduced Hitstun: (Will be Removed)
Hitstun has been reduced in order to maintain a sense of 64's combos, but also not making them too easy, forcing more creativity in combos for success. This has the adverse effect of decreasing shieldstun as well.

(Hitstun)
⦁ Value:3ff0 -> 4000
​

Weakened Shields:
The shields have been reduced in size overall, the purpose of this is to encourage better use of the shield positioning, increase shield pokes, which in turn decreases the chances for shield breaks, while still being doable.

(First Code)
⦁ Value:0010 -> 0009
(Second and Third Code)
⦁ Value:0037 -> 0028
​

Shortened Short Hop: (Removed)
Every character has a short hop, it is used in order to create faster combos close to ground. Those that had good short hop heights have it decreased for even faster combo possibilities (though some characters lose a bit in combo or pressure due to this), and it greatly increases the usefulness and combo game of those characters that had horrid short hop heights (Samus, DK, Luigi), while keeping the useful short hop heights of the original when standing still.

(Short Hop multiplier)
⦁ Value:4210 -> 4199
(Still Short Hop)
⦁ Value:4110 -> 41d0​

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Character Specific Changes
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The main focus was to modify the viability of the cast in order to make sure just about any character could have the ability to win a major tournament with any of the characters (as most of the balance mods attempt to achieve). The majority of this has been fully implemented and there are a few changes left to do.

✓ = Already implemented in ROM
✗ = Not yet implemented in ROM

Luigi (Best lil Bro)
​

The design concept for Luigi was to make him not as terrible when it comes to movement, with it being his primary weakness. His air game will be increased by a better aerial finisher, and his grounded mobility will be increased considerably with an increased pivot and by increasing the power and usefulness of his ground options, making him a more ground focused fighter with decent aerial options.

Spoiler

Taunt Cancel✓

Taunt cancels are fun, but not all characters can do them. In a sense they're used as a method of tilting your opponent, but some characters just can't have that psychological strategy option.
(Switch texture change with voice fx)
⦁ Value: ac000003 -> 440001a8
(Switch double jump voice with jab voice)
⦁ Value: 440001a8 -> 440001a0
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Pivot Distance via friction reduction✓

Extending Luigi's pivot distance signifies more coverage options for Luigi, it also makes him more mobile on the ground, and allows for greater attack options while reducing most shield pressure options on Luigi
(Friction)
⦁ 3f333333 -> 3e803333
​

Up-B Shoryuken✓

Luigi's sweetspot up-b, while it is a very good kill move, doesn't kill easily from the ground. From the air it is far weaker, and is still hard to kill with. Both range of the move and their kill potential will be increased for some consistent kill setups.
(Up-B Grounded/Aerial Fist Hitbox)
⦁ Size: 140 -> 160
⦁ KBS: 80 -> 90
(Up-B Grounded/Aerial Arm Hitbox)
⦁ Size: 60 -> 80
⦁ KBS: 80 -> 90
​

Fireball✓

Luigi's Fireballs aren't incredibly useful on their own, and in order to increase the usefulness of them, we should look to maing them better. Thus they will now be faster on the ground in light of Luigi's new emphasis.
(Grounded Fireball Animation)
⦁ Value:027B -> 025d
​

DTilt✓

Luigi's dtilt has been refashioned to be a useful combo starter/extender, the knockback it has is relatively low knockback growth and can be used to great effect to kill opponents with up-smash or up-B or other moves.
(DTilt hitbox 0)
⦁ BKB: 0 -> 50
⦁ Angle: 361 -> 100
⦁ KBS: 100 -> 20
⦁ Size: 90 -> 100
(DTilt hitbox 1)
⦁ BKB: 0 -> 50
⦁ Angle: 361 -> 100
⦁ KBS: 100 -> 20
⦁ Size: 130 -> 140
​

FTilt✓

Ftilt needs more range for the sake of spacing, the hitbox range is all that's changed for this to happen. The speed will also be mildly increased for safer approaches.
(FTilt foot hitbox all angles)✓
⦁ Size: 110 -> 160​

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Link (The Hero of Time) ​

The design concept for Link was to make his disjoint an extra strength as the sword doesn't go as far as it seems like it should, as well as increase item game for the sake of neutral and combo game with a lot of zoning. Recovery needed to be buffed considerably for Link to still be a contender, but his recovery will remain very predictable, but he won't die like Little Mac.

Spoiler

Taunt Cancel✓

Taunt cancels are fun, but not all characters can do them. In a sense they're used as a method of tilting your opponent, but some characters just can't have that psychological strategy option.
(Place Voice effect at start of taunt)​

Up-B✓

Link's up-b... sucks. It has good power in the air and OoS potential, but it's recovery capacity is basically nearly null. Boosting this about 50% in capacity is enough to allow Link a decent recovery along with Bomb Recovery.
(Up-B vertical boost)
⦁ Boost value:428A -> 42AC
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Boomerang Throw✓

Link's boomerang is an amazing projectile, but it's slow to come out and often can't be used to its full effectiveness, now it'll be able to be thrown out faster, but in the air it's a little slower than on the ground to come out.
(Grounded)
⦁ Value:80 -> c0
(aerial)
⦁ Value:80 -> a0
​

Bomb Pull✓

Link's bombs are an amazing projectile, but taking one out takes ages, and is far more dangerous than it needs to be, the changes allow for speedy use on the ground, and slightly slower use in the air, this way you can utilize them without fear and make the stage more of an obstacle course.
(Grounded)
⦁ Value:80 -> c0
(aerial)
⦁ Value:80 -> b0
​

Bomb Explosion✓

Link's bomb explosions are now made stronger for increasing usage of them off-stage as well as for bomb recovery.
(Explosion & Collision)
⦁ KBS:20 -> 52
⦁ Angle:361 -> 61
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Nair✓

Link's Sweetspot nair can kill at high percents or off-stage.
(Sweetspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ DMG:10 -> 15
⦁ KBS:100 -> 110
⦁ Size:120 -> 140
⦁ Sound Level:M -> L
(Sweetspot Body Hitboxes)
⦁ DMG:10 -> 15
⦁ Sound Level:M -> L
​

Uair✓

Link's uair can juggle better, can kill earlier, and has a bit more range on it vertically
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Angle:70 -> 80
⦁ Zpos:100 -> 130
⦁ Size:150 -> 180
​

Dair✓

Link's dair now has a little bit more downward range, giving him greater chance of landing it, but also a slightly larger vulnerability from above
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Zpos:100 -> 150
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Ftilt✓

Link's ftilt now has greater knockback growth on the tip of the sword to reward good spacing and give a better edgeguard
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:0 -> 5
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Utilt✓

Link's utilt has been changed to have more range, and more low percent juggling capacity, great for combo starting and pressuring on shield.
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:20 -> 25
⦁ KBS:100 -> 90
⦁ Size:100 -> 160
⦁ ZPos:240 -> 260​

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Ness (Savior of Onett) ​

The design concept for Ness was the increase of his djc options, to make use of his speed, and to allow for his specials to have some use so he has a few extra tools. Some of his aerials will be made stronger to allow for this djc power increase,as well as a new use for PK Magnet.

Spoiler

PK Thunder✓

Ness' PK Thunder is both a hard to control recovery, as well as a hard to aim one, you stay vulnerable through it for quite some time, and even when doing it from a distance you aren't very safe. The idea is to make the process faster while controlling it that's good for getting out before the edgeguard. And increasing the time the ramming hitbox is active while decreasing the ramming endlag.
(Ramming Hitbox duration)
⦁ Value:9 -> 15
(Skip Ramming Endlag) (might be removed soon)
⦁ Value:0713 -> 068f
(Skip PK Thunder startup Air & Ground)
⦁ Value:070e;0711 -> 0712
(Shortened Landing Lag)
⦁ Value:3e2e -> 3e7e
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PK Fire✓

Ness' PK Fire is a very good projectile, it can set up for throws or combos, edge-guards, and forcing DI. However, throwing it out takes a very long time, and takes a long time for the animation to end. The idea is to increase the animation speed of the PK Fire just enough so that it comes out at a decent speed and Ness doesn't suffer extreme endlag or punishes from throwing it out.
(Grounded PK Fire Animation Change)
⦁ Value:070c -> 06e5
​

PK Magnet✗

Ness' PK Magnet sucks, it is only useful against projectile characters and it's so slow on startup and endlag, its only use is for ledge-grab control, making it much faster startup, make the endlag shorter (or land canceled), as well as giving it a shine-like hitbox will be very useful
(New PK Magnet hitbox)
⦁ ID#1:0
⦁ ID#2:0
⦁ DMG:5
⦁ BKB:0
⦁ FKB:80
⦁ KBS:100
⦁ Angle:20
⦁ Bone:0
⦁ Xpos:0
⦁ Ypos:180
⦁ Zpos:0
⦁ GT:1
⦁ AT:1
⦁ SD:0
⦁ Clang:1
⦁ Size:210
⦁ Effect:Electric
⦁ Sound Type:Shock
⦁ Sound Level:M
⦁ After:2
​

Dash Attack✓ (will be changed)

Ness' grounded options don't need much of a boost, they combo well with his other options, making it unnecessary.
Dash attack is the exception, and giving the sweetspot greater power can make the difference.
(Sweetspot hitbox)
⦁ Size: 140 -> 180
⦁ Damage: 12 -> 15
⦁ BKB: 16 -> 20
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Electric
⦁ Sound Type:Normal -> Shock
​

Nair✓

Ness' nair is decent, but it lacks sufficient range to be useful, increasing the range allows for more combo ability and shield pressure capacity.
(Sweetspot foot hitboxes)
⦁ Size:120 -> 180
(Sweetspot body hitbox)
⦁ Size:130 -> 200
​

Fair✓ (will be changed)

Ness' fair is his worst aerial, unnecessarily so. As a boost to his DJC potential, the range, power and usefulness of it will be increased, the sweetspot being a kill move, and the sourspot being a combo setup.
(Sweetspot hitbox)
⦁ Size:155 -> 225
⦁ BKB:16 -> 25
⦁ Damage:12 -> 16
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Electric
(Sourspot hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 200
⦁ BKB:0 -> 8
⦁ Angle:361 -> 100
​

Bair✓ (will be changed)

Just an aesthetic addition for the attack to seem more cool.
(Sweetspot hitboxes)
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Electric​

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Donkey Kong (King of the Jungle) ​

The design concept for DK was the reward of good spacing. To do this we need to increase his hitbox ranges and speed up his tilts, so he isn't as vulnerable being a giant sandbag for his enemies. Also allowing for better cargo throw followups.

Spoiler

Grab✓

DK's grab is fairly good, but it isn't large enough to let him be able to utilize it when it is necessary.
(Grab box 0)
⦁ Size:165 -> 205
(Grab box 1)
⦁ Size:90 -> 130
​

Dash Attack✓

DK's dash attack sucks, not only are the strong and weak hits of it the same, they're designed to combo into other moves, but last too long to do so. The strong hit will be changed to push players away from DK and the combo ability of the weak hit made better.
(Sweetspot hitbox)
⦁ BKB:0 -> 20
⦁ FKB:120 -> 0
⦁ DMG:12 -> 16
⦁ Angle:100 -> 361
⦁ Size:145 -> 180
(Sourspot hitbox)
⦁ FKB:120 -> 100
⦁ Size:145 -> 165
​

FTilt✓

DK's ftilt is a decent move with decent power, decent use and decent length, but it puts him in more risk than is necessary. Increasing the range of the fist hitbox will let it be a little safer and help zoning for DK
(FTilt fist hitbox all angles)
⦁ Size:140 -> 180
​

DTilt✓

DK's dtilt is a good zoning tool, it kills at a decent rate, and it's fast, but it's terribly bad range and uselessness to edge-guard makes it a hard move to use. It will have increased scaling, as well as range to compensate for the difficulty to use.
(Shoulder Hitbox)
⦁ Size:110 -> 150
(Fist Hitbox)
⦁ DMG:8 -> 10
⦁ Size:120 -> 180
⦁ Xpos:180 -> 200
​

Nair✓

DK's nair is a good move, it comes out fast, it combos decently, and it covers a decent range. Except his arms are left easily hittable and thus can be interrupted by any kind of interrupting attack, the range on his nair will be increased for the sake of safety in the move.
(Sweetspot hand hitboxes)
⦁ Size:100 -> 150
(Sweetspot body hitbox)
⦁ Size:120 -> 180
(Sourspot hand hitboxes)
⦁ Size:100 -> 120
(Sourspot body hitbox)
⦁ Size:120 -> 150
​

Fair✓

DK's fair is a good move all around, it's problem being, once again, terrible range. The hitbox sizes will be increased for less interruptibility.
(Spike hitbox)
⦁ Size:120 -> 160
⦁ Xpos:220 -> 230
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Fire
(Arm hitboxes)
⦁ Size:80 -> 110
⦁ Xpox:80 -> 100
​

Dair✓

DK's dair is an interesting move, that's both useful and large, but it's vertical range doesn't protect DK in the slightest, the ideas would be to bring some of the unnecessary hitboxes upwards so they protext him as well as function.
(Hitbox 2)
⦁ Xpos:-80 -> -260
(Hitbox 3)
⦁ Xpos:-80 -> -260
​

Up-B✓

DK's aerial hitboxes on his recovery are decent, but can at times be interrupted from the side, the idea here would be to make it impossible to interrupt his recovery that way from the sides by increasing the ranges.
(Sweetspot Aerial Hitboxes)
⦁ Size:110 -> 160
(Sourspot Aerial Hand Hitboxes)
⦁ Size:100 -> 140
(Up-B Height)
⦁ Value:3d -> 3a
​

Charge Punch✓

The charge punch is an invaluable move for finishing stocks early for DK, but the use of the charging itself is useful for aerial baits and turn around approaches. So on the ground it charges faster.
(Charging Grounded Speed)
⦁ Value:80 -> A0
​

Down-B✓

DK's down-B has few uses, it can be used to start some combos, and usually only at the edges of the attack, this change is to allow for spikes on the hitboxes closer to DK for edge-guards and tech chases.
(First & Second hit Hitbox 2 & 3)
⦁ AT:0 -> 1
⦁ Angle:90 -> -90​

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Samus Aran (The Bounty Hunter)
​

The design concept for Samus was the increase in her special moves usefulness. They generally have low reward and high risk, also making her recovery difficult. Giving her an easy recovery with a slightly better combo game with the specials will be the focus.

Spoiler

Taunt Cancel✓

Taunt cancels are fun, but not all characters can do them. In a sense they're used as a method of tilting your opponent, but some characters just can't have that psychological strategy option.
(Place Voice effect at start of taunt)
​

Mini-Bomb✓

Samus' bombs are nice tools, but aren't readily useable in a fight setting. Making them send upwards may lead to some interesting juggling scenarios
⦁ Angle:361 -> 90
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Fair✓

Samus' fair has a lot of combo potential, but due to its knockback it can only be used to combo at low percents, the idea would be to have it be fixed knockback so you can always combo it into something
(Both hitboxes)
⦁ Angle: 361 -> 30
⦁ FKB:0 -> 50
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Uair✓

Samus' uair is a good combo move, but after performing it, she's left vulnerable, so it isn't used much in isolation, the idea would be to keep her safer at the end of the move, possibly making it a kill move at the very end
(Both Final Hitboxes)
⦁ BKB:0 -> 20
⦁ DMG:4 -> 6
⦁ Sound Level:M -> L
​

Charge Speed✓

Speeding up Samus' charge speed will give her more kill potential from far away and pressure, allowing her to have better neutral game
⦁ Value:14 -> 10
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Grounded Shooting Speed✓

The shot itself aside, Samus takes quite some time to make an uncharged shot. Now it can be released faster for some better neutral pressure.
⦁ Value:d464 -> d640
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Aerial Mini-bomb Double Jump Retention✓

This is an odd one. Basically Samus normally loses her double jump if she uses the mini-bombs, the idea would be to allow her to keep this for a better recovery
⦁ Value:a219 -> 2400
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Increased up-B height✓

Samus' screw attack is pretty bad in terms of height, the idea is to increase it slightly in order for her up-b OoS and recovery better and safer.
⦁ Value:4278 -> 429a​

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Mario (The Mushroom Hero) ​

The design concept for Mario was to increase his speed overall, but making his aerial game far more powerful. Sweetspot aerials will have greater kill potential than grounded ones. That way he doesn't need to gimp in order to kill with aerials.

Spoiler

Aerial Mobility✓

With Mario's stronger aerial toolset, he'll need some slightly better aerial mobility in order to capitalize on it, as well as better aerial elasticity. This will make his air game far stronger than previous.
(Air Elasticity)
⦁ Value:3ccc -> 3d23
(Air Max Speed)
⦁ Value:41f0 -> 4209
​

FSmash✗

Merely a firey aesthetic change
(Both Hitboxes All Angles)
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Fire
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Nair✓

Mario's Nair is already very good, but a bit more power on its sweetspot for more kill power will allow for greater kill setups
(Sweetspot all hitboxes)
⦁ KBS:100 -> 120
​

Fair✓

Mario's Fair is already very good, but a bit more power on its sweetspot for more kill power will allow for greater kill setups
(Sweetspot all hitboxes)
⦁ KBS:100 -> 120
​

Bair✓

Mario's Bair is already very good, but a bit more power on its sweetspot for more kill power will allow for greater kill setups
(Sweetspot all hitboxes)
⦁ KBS:100 -> 120
​

Uair✓ (will change)

Mario's Uair is great for juggling opponents, but not good for killing said juggled opponents. While making this a kill move would be too powerful, increasing the sweetspot's juggle ability while increasing the sourspots combo capacity will increase the usefulness.
(Sweetspot hitboxes)
⦁ Wait:3 -> 5
(Sourspot hitboxes)
⦁ Wait:7 -> 12
​

Fireball✓

Mario's Fireball is a good spacing tool, but for the sake of his aerial boosts, the angle of the fireballs needs to be changed, it should go lower for more aerial pressure, while remaining the same on the ground.
(Aerial Fireball Angle)
⦁ Value:bdb2 -> beff​

Up-B✓

In order to further increase Mario's aerial game, the idea would be to increase the power of the final hitbox significantly for some interesting combos in the air.
(Final hitbox)
⦁ BKB:0 -> 10
⦁ Angle:50 -> 80​

JigglyPuff (The Eyes of Death) ​

The design concept for Puff was to increase her already great air combo game, with a few moves having larger range and giving her better jumps.

Spoiler

Aerial Jumps✓

Puff's stronger aerial toolset, they'll need some slightly better aerial mobility in order to capitalize on it, this would be achieved through better final few jumps.
​

Nair✓ (might be removed)

Due to the fact I'll be increasing the range on other aerial moves, Puff's nair must have its range reduced slightly, as it is incredibly disjointed for no reason. This may be reverted.
(Toe hitbox Sweet & Sourspot)
⦁ Xpos:120 -> 100
​

Fair✓

Puff's fair is used for a variety of combos, but it's near impossible to space it due to it being so close to the body. To boost her aerial game further, making the tip hitbox bigger will allow for slightly safer combos to be done, and allow for less risky gimps.
(Foot hitbox Sweet & Sourspot)
⦁ Size:110 -> 150
​

Bair✓

Much like fair, Puff's bair is used in many combos and "wall-of-death" scenarios, but isn't a great spacing tool, if the range is increased on the move, spacing, as well as combos can be much safer and her approach can be more effective.
(Tip hitbox Sweet & Sourspot)
⦁ Xpos:150 -> 180
​

Pound✓

Pound is a nice move for combos and for recovery, but the hitbox length, while long, isn't enough to compensate for how vulnerable she becomes while doing it. To allow this move more safety and ease of combo use, the hitboxes will come out a little sooner and end a little later.
(Startup)
⦁ After:12 -> 10
(Duration)
⦁ After:28 -> 32
(Endlag)
⦁ After:30 -> 28​

Yoshi (The Happy Dinosaur)
​

The design concept for Yoshi was to keep everything the same. He is a very well balanced character, making some of his slowest options slightly faster is the only likely change he'll get.

Spoiler

Egg✓

Yoshi's only strange move that could use some reworking is his egg toss. It is quite slow, and the egg itself is a bit too powerful. The idea would be to allow for more egg tossing ability with decreased endlag, while making the egg weaker so it's not an assured death when getting hit, but still decent
(Egg hitbox)
⦁ BKB:50 -> 30
(Speed)✓​

Fox (The Arwing Commander)
​

The design concept for Fox was to make his recovery a little bit easier with hardly any other changes. Fox is quite balanced and difficult to use so his hitboxes need no changes. His kill options may be reduced in power if he elevates in power too much.

Spoiler

Taunt Cancel✓

Taunt cancels are fun, but not all characters can do them. In a sense they're used as a method of tilting your opponent, but some characters just can't have that psychological strategy option.
(Place Voice effect at start of taunt)
​

Firefox✓

Fox's firefox is his biggest weakness, and a great asset as well. His recovery will gain several boosts, small in nature, but making a big difference overall. First his firefox will take less time to startup, it will travel slightly farther, and the hitbox will be a bit bigger.
(Firefox Aerial Hitbox)
⦁ Size:90 -> 130
(Faster Startup)
⦁ Value:23 -> 18
(Farther Firefox Vertical and Horizontal)
⦁ Value:42e6 -> 42f7​

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Captain Falcon (The Racing Legend)
​

The design concept for Falcon was to increase his bad recovery but making up for it with a nerf to his combo game and kill power, to essentially keep his original playstyle but make it need greater skill to pull it off. Standard combos being more difficult with a need for greater precision with shorter lasting hitboxes or decreased range.

Spoiler

Up Smash✓

Falcon's up smash is a good combo starter, but the vertical range it has is insane and it makes it impossible to approach him from above no matter what hitboxes you have due to its strange and unnatural disjoint. The range and size will be reduced in size to make it more sensible, less safe, but have the same combo potential.
("Fist" hitbox)
⦁ Size:190 -> 160
⦁ Xpos:160 -> 120
("Shoulder" hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 100
​

Nair✓

Falcon's nair isn't used enough, this is partially due to a not so fantastic range, but also due to a lack of kill power. Nair will be changed so that the strong hit will act similarly to the Knee of Justice at the foot, and the weak nair will have less range and powers to compensate for the increase in power of sweetspot.
(Sweetspot Thigh Hitbox)
⦁ DMG:16 -> 14
⦁ BKB:20 -> 15
(Sweetspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ KBS:100 -> 130
⦁ Effect:Normal -> Electric
(Sourspot Thigh Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 0
⦁ DMG:13 -> 11
⦁ Size:120 -> 80
(Sourspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 0
⦁ Size:140 -> 100
​

Bair✓

Falcon's bair is a great spacing tool he has, the strong hit is fine as is, except its range may be a tad excessive, the weak hit, however, has literally no difference except for hitbox size, therefore, making it too powerful. Reducing the power of sourspot bair can lead to some interesting combo scenarios, as well as balance out the edge-guarding abilities that Falcon tends to abuse.
(Sweetspot Fist Hitbox)
⦁ Xpos:180 -> 150
(Sourspot Hitboxes)
⦁ DMG:16 -> 9
⦁ BKB:10 -> 5
⦁ Sound Level:L -> M
​

Uair✓

Falcon's bread and butter combo uses a lot of uair, to the point where it's called the Falcon Standard, it isn't a very good thing to have it be so powerful as people end up relying on this one tool and not really doing anything else, so to make it still usable, but more difficult, uair will be changed so that the first stronger part has more knockback, making the amount of uairs you can do less, the middle hitbox isn't much of a problem, but its knockback will also be increased, and the tipman's power will be reduced, while all these will have a reduced range.
(First Leg Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 20
⦁ Angle:80 -> 70
(First Foot Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 20
⦁ Angle:80 -> 70
⦁ Size:130 -> 120
⦁ Xpos:220 -> 200
(Second Leg Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 15
⦁ DMG:16 -> 13
(Second Foot Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 15
⦁ DMG:16 -> 13
⦁ Size:130 -> 120
⦁ Xpos:220 -> 200
(Third Leg Hitbox)
⦁ DMG:16 -> 10
(Third Foot Hitbox)
⦁ DMG:16 -> 10
⦁ Size:130 -> 120
⦁ Xpos:220 -> 200
​

Dair✓

Falcon's dair is a fine hitbox, it's good for edge-guards, combos, and style points. However, it may be a little TOO easy to land it. Not due to range and the power makes sense in itself, but rather by how long it lasts, which is 18 frames with no weak hits. The time it is out will be reduced for greater risk and stricter timing.
(Hitbox Duration)
⦁ Wait:18 -> 8
​

Up-B✓

Falcon's up-b is powerful, and a bit of a crappy recovery. The idea would be to make his recovery better in distance a bit, but also to reduce the active frames of his grab box so that it doesn't become something broken. It also will reduce the utility of Falcon Standard by a small amount.
(Grabbox Duration)
⦁ After:45 -> 30
(First and last Distance code)
⦁ Value:4c -> 80
(Second Distance Code)
⦁ Value:8c -> 80​

​

Kirby (The Star Warrior)
​

The design concept for Kirby was to make him less easy to win with. Decreasing the range of many of his moves with insanely broken range while increasing the knockback of some of his combo tools will force players to not lean too much on the easy combos. To compensate the extreme nerfs to range, I plan to give him a useful uair for more option availability. However the nerfs won't make the old playstyle irrelevant, it will just be easier to escape from.

Spoiler

Taunt Cancel✓

Taunt cancels are fun, but not all characters can do them. In a sense they're used as a method of tilting your opponent, but some characters just can't have that psychological strategy option.
(Place Voice effect at start of taunt)
​

UTILT!!!!✓

Kirby's Utilt is literally the bane of smash 64 at times, causing the imbalance and frustration that comes with it for many players. The knockback on utilt will be increased so the juggling lasts less, and the angle changed so that it's harder to keep up unless well positioned, as well as a reduction in range and hitbox size. The utilt will still be usable for the same purpose, but not for as long or as easily.
(Sweetspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 100
⦁ Angle:96 -> 85
⦁ BKB:30 -> 40
(Sweetspot 'Magic Toe' Hitbox)
⦁ Size:160 -> 120
⦁ Xpos:200 -> 140
⦁ Angle:96 -> 85
⦁ BKB:30 -> 40
(Sourspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 90
⦁ Angle:88 -> 60
⦁ BKB:20 -> 30
(Sourspot 'Magic Toe' Hitbox)
⦁ Size:160 -> 110
⦁ Xpos:200 -> 130
⦁ Angle:88 -> 60
⦁ BKB:20 -> 30
​

Nair✓

Kirby's nair is fairly unused, but at the same time its range is a typical problem Kirby shows, but due to it not being so bad, the range and power will only be decreased slightly.
(Sweetspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:30 -> 20
(Sweetspot Toe Hitbox)
⦁ BKB:30 -> 20
⦁ Xpos:120 -> 100
(Sourspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ Size:105 -> 90
(Sourspot Toe Hitbox)
⦁ Size:130 -> 115
⦁ Xpos:120 -> 100
​

Fair✓

Kirby's Fair is a fantastic move, but the last hitbox is too powerful, but making it too weak isn't the point. The idea would be to decrease its killing capacity off the ledge.
(Final Hitboxes)
⦁ BKB:10 -> 0
​

Bair✓

Kirby's bair has too much range
(Foot Sweet&Sour Hitbox)
⦁ Size:190 -> 140
(Ankle Sweet&Sour Hitbox)
⦁ Size:180 -> 130
​

Uair✓

Kirby's Uair is his most useless move, and I'd like to make it into a tough to land vertical kill option, and on late hit can be used to start combos when close to the ground
(Hitbox)
⦁ FKB:100 -> 0
⦁ KBS:100 -> 150
⦁ Angle:361 -> 75
⦁ Size:105 -> 120
⦁ Sound Level:M -> L
(Damage Changes)
⦁ After:8 -> 14
⦁ After:18 -> 10
⦁ Damage:8 -> 4
⦁ After:30 -> 8
⦁ Damage:2 -> 0
⦁ Wait:16 -> 5
​

Dair✓

Kirby's dair is too easy of an edgeguard option, it's far too unnecessarily powerful. The knockback will be decreased, and the landing hitbox for it that is sometimes used will be reduced significantly.
(Hitboxes)
⦁ BKB:30 -> 10
(Landing Hitboxes)
⦁ Size:150 -> 60
⦁ Zpos:|150| -> |70|​

​

Pikachu (The Thunder Mouse)
​

The design concept for Pikachu was to reward close up play, since most of Pikachu's strength resides in the ability to never need to get too close since his range is fairly large on most of his attacks, the idea would be to decrease these ranges so Pikachu players need to be closer to risk the damage to get the same results.

Spoiler

Grab✓

Pikachu's grab game is great, he has one of the few chain grabs in the game, and a good kill throw, but his speed, coupled with his grab range makes the throws a tad too powerful. Making it smaller forces players to get in close for their rewards, jab-grabs will need to be closer in order to work, too.
(Grab box)
⦁ Size:145 -> 100
​

FTilt✓

Pikachu's Ftilt is a good edge-gaurd tool, and won't be changed in terms of power or knockback, but for fairness, the range will be mildly decreased.
(All Angle Feet Hitboxes)
⦁ Size:140 -> 120
​

UTilt✓

Pikachu's Utilt is a great move for juggling, but its juggle capacity is a bit too great for anti-air due to its speed and range, the range at the tip will be reduced in size so it's a little riskier and not as easy to anti-air or juggle with it.
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Size:150 -> 100
​

DTilt✓

Similar to Ftilt, the Dtilt is great both for spacing and for edge-guarding, but it's even safer still due to the disjoint of the tail, therefore the tip hitbox will be reduced in range for a bit more realistic hitbox positioning.
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 100
​

Fsmash✓

View DTilt, but electric disjoint instead
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Size:160 -> 140
⦁ Zpos:750 -> 600
​

Dsmash✓

Pikachu's Dsmash is one of his few bad moves, not due to any lack of range necessarily outwards, but rather a lack of protection inwards, allowing it to protect Pikachu more would increase its usage for punishes.
(Body Hitbox 1&2 hit)
⦁ Size:90 -> 120
​

Nair✓

Pikachu's nair is a good combo tool, and kill move, this won't be changed, but the range of it coupled with the size makes it so that his body, except his head, is protected while using it for quite some time. Hitbox size will be reduced slightly
(Sweet&Sour Feet Hitboxes)
⦁ Size:120 -> 100
(Sweet&Sour Body Hitbox)
⦁ Size:130 -> 110
​

Fair✓

Same as with nair, except it's only a combo tool for racking up damage more than anything. But it covers so much of Pikachu's body that it's near impossible to get past it or out of it with DI. Reducing hitbox size significantly will allow for the same use, but more risk involved.
(Head Hitbox)
⦁ Size:195 -> 130
(Body Hitbox)
⦁ Size:170 -> 110
​

Bair✓

Bair is one of Pikachu's best off-stage kill options, and it has insane amounts of range. The range will be reduced significantly so it's at least more necessary to space it out a little bit.
(Sweetspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ Size:170 -> 150
⦁ Xpos:100 -> 60
(Sweetspot Body Hitbox)
⦁ Size:150 -> 130
(Sourspot Foot Hitbox)
⦁ Size:155 -> 120
⦁ Xpos:40 -> 10
(Sourspot Body Hitbox)
⦁ Size:135 -> 100
​

Uair✓

Uair is a great gimping and comboing tool, but its insane disjoint makes it impossible to contest with much of anything. Similar idea to other tail based attacks
(Tip Hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 110
​

Dair✓

Similar to Fair, Dair has the same amount of size and protection, but lasts even longer and has kill capacity and gimping ability. Reducing the size will allow for it to be riskier.
(Head Hitbox)
⦁ Size:165 -> 110
(Body Hitbox)
⦁ Size:140 -> 90​

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm aware that you may not agree with most of these. But more often than not I'd just like to say "Don't knock it till you try it". It definitely takes a bit of getting used to, but overall it has resulted in far more enjoyable games for most who have tested it thus far. Testing is far more appreciated for feedback than theorizing.

HUGE THANKS to DannySsB for teaching me how to use the proper tools for editing, and basically testing changes and being encouraging throughout!

Due to the weird Legality of ROMs and distributing ROMs, considering I don't yet have a ROM patcher, distributing this for testing may be exclusive to PMing me. If someone could fill me in on what's legal and suggested, I'd greatly appreciate it.​

 

[Saltsizzle]

Really good idea and well thought out post. I wish you luck with the project.

(you'll probably still get flamed because that's what seems to happen with threads like these in the 64 section)

 

[RPGgrenade]

Really good idea and well thought out post. I wish you luck with the project.

(you'll probably still get flamed because that's what seems to happen with threads like these in the 64 section)

Thank you. Do you have any suggestions? And yes I'm prepared for the flaming. Not that big an issue for me.

 

[Zantetsu]

Here's my 2 cents.

Most of the 64 community will not be fond of the project. I'm quite certain they will not be your main audience, if this even takes off. Looking over all of the changes, it just seems like you're trying to make the game like Melee. Most 64 players don't play Melee, and they play 64 because they like the game for what it is, which is completely different than the other smash games. The only audience I can possibly imagine that would be interested in this project would be Melee or PM players, and why would they play dumbed-down version of their main game? At least PM had a larger cast, more stages, and additional options as their selling point to Melee players. So what reason would your target audience have to play this?

 

[RPGgrenade]

Here's my 2 cents.

Most of the 64 community will not be fond of the project. I'm quite certain they will not be your main audience, if this even takes off. Looking over all of the changes, it just seems like you're trying to make the game like Melee. Most 64 players don't play Melee, and they play 64 because they like the game for what it is, which is completely different than the other smash games. The only audience I can possibly imagine that would be interested in this project would be Melee or PM players, and why would they play dumbed-down version of their main game? At least PM had a larger cast, more stages, and additional options as their selling point to Melee players. So what reason would your target audience have to play this?

You act as if I intend for this to be popular XP
I honestly expect far worse to come anyways. And I can't really think of what I made melee like. If anything I mostly made it "like the other games" while attempting to balance the characters. Smash 64 is special in that it lacks many of the things that are in all the other games. But that's not necessarily a good thing nor does it need to be a thing anyways. But if you dislike it or if anyone else dislikes it then that's perfectly fine.

And the only real reason I decided to bother posting this is because ALL of my +30 smash 64 friends who take the game quite seriously actually really liked my changes and enjoyed it. I just figured it could be nice if it caused no negative effects to the characters in the game. So my answer is... I have no reason because I have no target audience.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

I like the idea. I totally love the idea about modding/hacking smash games. I am one of those who think "Smash 64 is perfect the way it is." but I try to be open mind. Are you working with 19XXTE or with the regular rom? Will you edit/add some stages?

 

[RPGgrenade]

I like the idea. I totally love the idea about modding/hacking smash games. I am one of those who think "Smash 64 is perfect the way it is." but I try to be open mind. Are you working with 19XXTE or with the regular rom? Will you edit/add some stages?

Since some issues pop up whenever I try to use the 19XXTE hack, the answer to that would be no at the moment. If this were to expand into a larger project new possibly custom stages and using 19XXTE style or the hack specifically might be something fantastic to consider! :D

And I'm glad you're at least considering it =) Give any ideas of character improvements or whether something's too much or too little. Currently these codes seem to work with the standard ROM however, since I don't think they've been tested on 19XXTE.

 

[Ælude]

Your ideas are generally more intelligent than what I typically see. I'm intrigued by the idea of ness having a hitbox on his magnet and link could certainly use some help on his recovery - though I would personally nerf the knockback on this move if given extra height otherwise I feel this move is a little too good.

I do have a few concerns though that ill bullet point to keep short but honestly, you'll never satisfy everyone so I would hear ppl out but ultimately you gotta make something you and your friends enjoy.

- Fine if you want to remain closed-minded to only buffing (yes kirby utilt im glaring at you) but why would buff characters like pika and kirby with anything? That seems rather counter productive. Even look at how pm went about it - Fox did recieve some nerfs like reduced knockback on usmash, no frame 1 invincibility on shine for example.

- imo alot of your universal changes don't seem to create balance but destroy it. Less hitstun seems to hinder characters like fox, yoshi, ness, link ect and not really affect a character like pika too much. Im also scared of the mere mention of pika being able to do a ff fair.

- please don't mess with di - especially making it more user friendly. Its a tool that helps create skill gaps from player-to-player and putting everyone on a more even playing field with this is not good for competive play - and I use "competitive" here in even the most casual setting where you just want to win and your opponent to lose.

- most characters don't really need more distance in their recoverys to help them climb the tier ladder other than link. Especially ness. The only buff he needs as far as recovery goes is to negate the abssurd landing lag hes subjected to and if possible give him an active hitbox for his entire animation. With fox would it be possible to give him a hitbox for his initial charge for firefox? Just curious im not even sure he needs anything.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Your ideas are generally more intelligent than what I typically see. I'm intrigued by the idea of ness having a hitbox on his magnet and link could certainly use some help on his recovery - though I would personally nerf the knockback on this move if given extra height otherwise I feel this move is a little too good.

I do have a few concerns though that ill bullet point to keep short but honestly, you'll never satisfy everyone so I would hear ppl out but ultimately you gotta make something you and your friends enjoy.

- Fine if you want to remain closed-minded to only buffing (yes kirby utilt im glaring at you) but why would buff characters like pika and kirby with anything? That seems rather counter productive. Even look at how pm went about it - Fox did recieve some nerfs like reduced knockback on usmash, no frame 1 invincibility on shine for example.

- imo alot of your universal changes don't seem to create balance but destroy it. Less hitstun seems to hinder characters like fox, yoshi, ness, link ect and not really affect a character like pika too much. Im also scared of the mere mention of pika being able to do a ff fair.

- please don't mess with di - especially making it more user friendly. Its a tool that helps create skill gaps from player-to-player and putting everyone on a more even playing field with this is not good for competive play - and I use "competitive" here in even the most casual setting where you just want to win and your opponent to lose.

- most characters don't really need more distance in their recoverys to help them climb the tier ladder other than link. Especially ness. The only buff he needs as far as recovery goes is to negate the abssurd landing lag hes subjected to and if possible give him an active hitbox for his entire animation. With fox would it be possible to give him a hitbox for his initial charge for firefox? Just curious im not even sure he needs anything.

I believe I can answer most of these. The buffing of characters is merely to prevent the typical problem of players complaints about nerfs when they play the best characters. This way they don't have the same things to complain about. But yes I understand some things could use a nerf (utilt kirby) but honestly people have been able to work around most of them as is by now and simply allowing greater tools to them is far better help. And to asnwer I don't WANT to buff Kirby OR Pika. I don't wanna but I suggested possible changes anyway for fairness.

As I've tested it a lot, it doesn't seem to hinder those characters at all. And I main Link so I should know whether it hinders him or not. The playtesting has through quite a few tweaks as is with good players testing out whether too many combos get broken (which is partially the idea that combos won't be easy money, but you work for them a little more, because otherwise comebacks will be near impossible regardless of any other changes.) Saying that less hitstun would hinder characters I could agree with if it were at the level it's at in Smash 4, because there it's practically nonexistent. But in smash 64 I find that reducing hitstun, players who were getting easy kills suddenly were losing and players that weren't winning were getting comebacks and improving. The hitstun barrer is HUGE and I get that it's a staple of 64. But I think the fact it's been decreased SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than what I've done in future installments shows a testament to what actually works. If you can't get a combo to work, you didn't deserve for it to work. The hitstun wasn't decreased THAT much.

And it does affect Pika, I've noticed it a lot actually. It hinders just about every strong attack he has. It may not seem that way at first, but it really does make certain characters more viable than you'd imagine. However as I said, we can play with the numbers a bit and it shouldn't be too bad. As for FF fair Pika... wasn't that already doable anyway? And with the decreased hitstun, hence, the FF Fair on pika isn't as scary as you might be imagining (which I see is ability to imagine it is a little bit hindered, which I understand fully.) Without this FF aerial movement however, improvements in play to characters like Link, DK, Samus and Luigi would be near impossible as their Aerials last forever and they will fall slowly unless fast falling. It has provided a small improvment to all other characters, as well. As I said. Gotta test it out.

As for the DI. I didn't plan to keep it. It was interesting as a concept and I was just throwing it out there, it may be removed entirely. But I figured why not throw it in anyways. It seems to make a bit of a difference for getting away from Pikachu and Kirby, though, which seems to be what some people want. But whatever, not too big a deal for me to remove this one.

And actually, yes, they DO need these buffs. There's oddly enough not much you can do with variety on characters like Samus or DK when stuck off-stage getting back. The up-B increase on both of them increases combos potential and edgeguard ability as well. Stating they don't need it to get up the tier list may be true in some cases. But recovery is what seems to determine tiers for a large part. Not all of it, but it's fairly important if everything else is already good. In the case of DK, the increase isn't that much and Samus' isn't THAT much either. For Fox it's kind of necessary. And part of what I was trying for was to prevent messing with the actual moves too much hitbox wise so much as the properties not considering the hitboxes (for the most part). For Link, even WITH these buffs he still can't always get back, even with a perfect bomb recovery, so it shows the increase isn't THAT significant. Also for Captain Falcon I just wanted him to have a better chance at recovery at times. For ness' distance, I might decrease it, but the real issue isn't his actual recovery, but the PK thunder animation, and that can be interrupted super easily if close up. If the distance is increased it gives them the same capacity to be gimped (fox would probably be unpunishable if his firefox had a hitbox on startup) but you'd have to go out farther and risk more to get it. I'm not trying to make it dangerous to gimp them, but very difficult to gimp them.

My response to these is... try it out for yourself. Play it for a few days that way, try to get used to the current changes. See how it fits. THEN come back and see what can be tweaked or removed.

 

[Capos]

For ness' distance, I might decrease it, but the real issue isn't his actual recovery, but the PK thunder animation, and that can be interrupted super easily if close up. If the distance is increased it gives them the same capacity to be gimped (fox would probably be unpunishable if his firefox had a hitbox on startup) but you'd have to go out farther and risk more to get it. I'm not trying to make it dangerous to gimp them, but very difficult to gimp them.

You already have to go pretty far if the ness recovers right, pika's the only one who really goes out. How far do you think you're making it to stop that?

 

[Shears]

You seem really ambitious and definitely more thought out than anyone else who has attempted this same project so I don't really want to derail your endeavor but I will say, you're not qualified to determine what is needed to balance the game and by you saying the game needs to be balanced you have proven that. This is why the current competitive 64 scene will not accept this mod.

 

[RPGgrenade]

You seem really ambitious and definitely more thought out than anyone else who has attempted this same project so I don't really want to derail your endeavor but I will say, you're not qualified to determine what is needed to balance the game and by you saying the game needs to be balanced you have proven that. This is why the current competitive 64 scene will not accept this mod.

"I don't really want to derail you so I'm going to question your intelligence and competence instead of actually provide proper reasoning"
Sorry Shears. I've seen your posts here, you really sound extremely biased when it comes to these concepts. And as for the last sentence you made it clear that you have that bias towards it.
So before anything else. What counts as qualifications for balancing a videogame? Someone who's spent time making videogames? or maybe someone from nintendo themselves? Or are only pro players who are so used to the game by now any changes made will affect their play and create a dissonance of control for them so they'll obviously lash out against it due to their bias towards certain mechanics that may not be perfect but they're so used to them that it doesn't matter even if it were objectively better they'd reject it?
I'm ok with proper reasonings like Elude, but using a mix of the Ad Hominem fallacy and the Argument from Authority fallacy (also known as the Qualifications fallacy) really gets my goat. It just assumes that I'm not as intelligent as you are and is quite frankly extremely arrogant and not worth my time if you continue with that type of response. Feel free to give actual feedback next time instead.

 

[RPGgrenade]

You already have to go pretty far if the ness recovers right, pika's the only one who really goes out. How far do you think you're making it to stop that?

If you have a better idea I'd love to hear it =) I'm serious, it's just that the thing takes so long... Would giving the animation hitboxes help instead? I'm not very sure if it's better or worse.

 

[Capos]

If you have a better idea I'd love to hear it =) I'm serious, it's just that the thing takes so long... Would giving the animation hitboxes help instead? I'm not very sure if it's better or worse.

Ness' problem isn't getting gimped, it's that you can wait on stage and wait for him to recover, because it's pretty hard for him to sweet spot and if he doesn't he's a sitting duck. Decreasing the ending lag and maybe extending the hitbox duration will do way more for him than trying to make him less gimpable ever will.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Nothing wants makes me want to smug-post more than someone claiming logical fallacies on a video game forum.

You yourself dismissed your authority on the subject in your second sentence:

I'm RPGgrenade, and I'm relatively new to the competitive scene in smash.

Are we supposed to believe that someone who hasn't been playing this game for very long at all somehow has the insight on how to balance the game? You would think that someone who is known to know how the game works at a competitive level and is proficient in all 12 characters would be qualified to speak about balancing the game. No? Shears was just simply questioning your authority on balancing the game. No need to pull fallacies out of a bag to dismiss criticism. Anyways, let's actually make an on-topic post.

WARNING: These are my opinions and nothing more. Except for Link, those are HARD FACTS.

Spoiler: Universal Changes

Spoiler

Decreased Hitstun:
A very large reason more players don't pick up smash 64 is because it is often referred to as "Hitstun: The Game". The reason for this is simple. There is a LOT of hitstun in this game, a lot more than is honestly necessary. So I have attempted to decrease the hitstun to a point where it can benefit those trying to escape combos enough against players who aren't fast enough to pull off faster combos. Essentially raising the combo skill cap (at least in theory). I tried for a number that was balanced and acceptable, but I fully understand it may be too little, so this is one I want feedback to change up a little bit in order to achieve the balance people desire.

Why would you take the defining feature of 64 and nerf it? I'm pretty sure what draws in the most people to 64 other than nostalgia is the large amount of hitstun present in the game and the variety and complexity of the combos you are able to do. Take it away and you're left with a slower version of melee.

Spoiler

Weakened Shields:
This may seem like a nerf, but in fact it is more like a nerf to the whole cast so that it can be at a similar point it was at before. Due to the decreased hitstun, shieldstun has also decreased as a side effect, and as such, shield breaker combos will almost never work as well. This is no fun, and honestly it's a big part of why people enjoy Smash 64 at times. Some of the best moments with the greatest hype include shield breaks. So as a way to further enforce skill with the shield and shield BREAKING, the shields will now start with less health at all times, so that shield breaks are still possible even with the decreased hitstun. This will need to be balanced according to the hitstun, so it may vary.

Sheildbreaks will become almost non-existent with the decreased hitstun. You really only see shieldbreaks with Kirby, Yoshi, Ness and sometimes Samus and Mario at high levels of play anyways.

Spoiler

Increased DI:
Part of what makes Smash 64 so interesting is that it's the only game in the franchise without some form of angle affecting directional influence. This however is advented by the increase of what is usually referred to as "smash DI" in the other smash games following, which is just called DI here. This MAY not be the best change however, as it can make escaping combos exceedingly easy, and can be argued it nerfs more of the cast. So I would like feedback on this one, however currently DI has been increased 50% in this change, and would be appreciated if the changes are welcomed or shunned.

NO. Combos will have already been weakened with the nerf to hitstun. Adding in more DI would almost guarentee that no good combos would ever happen again. Crazy levels of DI are already achievable and to make it even more absurd would ruin combos even further.

Spoiler

Shortened Short Hop:
This change was brought on due to certain characters simply having too high of a short hop, meaning they couldn't make many combos work for them due to their strong *** legs. This was done to help benefit those characters, and overall it should help the entire cast have faster ground combos using the SHFFL technique as well. Two characters that may be affected by this change negatively are Fox and Captain Falcon, of which I'll need feedback (short hop laser is only single, not double, and falcon just jumps very little, which may be great or horrible). I would like feedback on this one as well.

I feel like this would make some characters impossible to approach. Imagine if Pika could just spam SHFFL up airs. With his disjointed hitboxes, i can't imagine ever approaching would be a good idea for the other player.

Spoiler: Link

Spoiler

Faster Boomerang Throw (A)
The boomerang is a crazy projectile, it goes insanely far, can be angled a variety of ways, bounces off surfaces, is very fast and can save you in many dire sitations. It's one drawback? It takes quite some time for it to be thrown. This code was chosen as it increases one of Link's greatest tools in its strength by allowing greater use in defense, edgeguards and combos alike, giving Link a slightly greater tool.

Link's boomerang actually works well with the current hitstun of his moves. Up tilt, down tilt, up smash, neutral air and up air can all be used to combo into boomerang, so decreasing the startup speed isn't really going to do much other than make Link more spammy in his projectile use.

Spoiler

Faster Bomb Pull-Out (A)
Link's bombs are annoying, set up traps, great for edge guards, can save you from a shield break, keep pressure off you and interrupt combos, can hit opponents weakly or strongly, and are overall greatly versatile. However, one issue remains. He takes forever to pull one out. Considering Link takes an instant to take them out in his games, it seems odd he takes his sweet time on taking out a bomb. The bombs are dangerous for combo set ups. And with this small change in lightly speeding up his bomb pull-out, Link's greatest tool becomes even more deadly.

Decreasing the startup on the bomb pull would make Link the spammiest character in any of the smash games. If you watch top level Link players, he already can create an iron wall of projectiles and allowing him to create them faster would just be boring to pay and watch.

Spoiler

Turn Around Air Up-B (P*)
What's with most of the cast being perfectly able to decide whether or not to turn around during their recovery, while others can't even if they tried. Some characters can compensate for this. DK with his reverse B-cancel, Samus is floaty enough to shoot in the right direction as well. Link however is screwed when it comes to long recovery unless he uses his boomerang, but that takes a considerable amount of precious time if you happen to be falling to your doom, this is important because of Link's Bomb recovery. Link has a bomb recovery in which he takes out a bomb or throws one he already holds after being knocked off. He'll throw it beneath him softly, bair the bomb, and DI towards the stage during the frames of hitlag, where he can, if he's lucky, Up-B towards the stage. However, no matter how this is done, Link is stuck looking away from the stage and must land on it instead of grab the ledge. There's SOME ways around this, like throwing the boomerang if you saved the second jump, but other than this there's no viable option to get back. All because of this strange mechanic. The idea is that Link could use this in order to have more devastating off-stage edgeguards, better chances at recovery and just a little more mobility overall

Link can already use his boomerang to turn himself around in the air, so i don't think this change is necessary. Bringing up Link's bomb recovery isn't really a strong point either. It's hardly used and it doesn't even give that much extra distance. You also shouldn't really be doing off-stage edgeguards with most of the cast except for, like, pika, kirby, and mario. The rest of the cast really only goes off stage when they can get back with a jump and an up b. Link best off-stage move, bair, already has him facing the ledge anyways.

Spoiler

Increased Bomb Knockback (C*)
Link's Bombs have little to no knockback on them. This is great for certain situations, for setting up combos, etc. All that is being considered is a light increase in the amount of knockback these bombs provide, to both increase his bomb recovery and to give a little more to the combos he may have. This isn't too important though and is only under minor consideration overall.

Not once in the years I've played Link have I thought that bombs needed extra knockback. This could actually remove some combo opportunities for Link.

Spoiler: DK

Spoiler

Speedy Charge Punch (A)
We all fear it if we don't expect it. It's the crazy powerful punch from DK's mighty fist. Now there is a mild drawback to this buff, while you DO have greater chances at landing this finisher, it decreases the time you can reverse B cancel, which I know is a very good move if you use DK. However it has not been removed and this change can be reduced in speed in order to give you more time. This may not even be the best thing and can be discussed to see if ti can be removed or simply changed a bit.

You can already charge up his punch in between taking stocks and during spacing battles, so I don;t see much of a need for a change.

Spoiler

Charge Punch Interrupt Power Retention (A)
Quite a name on this one isn't it? Basically what it is is that normally when you get interrupted mid charge punch, the power goes away even if it was painstakingly built up. This has been removed just to keep the players on their toes even if they were lucky enough to interrupt the move. Making it just a little bit more viable.

I think this would make using your charge have very little risk. You could just throw out a punch as your opponent is approaching and hope it connects. If it doesn't and you get hit, oh well, try again. You're pretty much giving DK a huge kill option in neutral with no downside.

Spoiler

Aerial Down-B Meteor (P*)
What the heck are you talking about. DK can't Down-B in the smash games. True except for the most recent one which gave me this idea. Is it too powerful? perhaps, crazy? perhaps. But the idea is to make it so the hitboxes only appear at DK's hands, being quite small, having quite some endlag to the move, and making the hitboxes meteor. I'm aware DK already have two of them, but he would far scarier if he had another option like this. Plus he's the biggest, heaviest and easiest character to combo, it seems relatively fair in the long run. And it can be done. But of course this demands a code and testing to see if it's fair.

Completely useless given that his down air and forward air both have huge hitboxes and would probably come out faster than his down-b would.

Spoiler: Samus

Spoiler

Faster Charge Shot (A)
Samus has been given an upgrade to her gun, one of these being a faster charge shot. Same power, can be canceled all the same, simply faster to charge to full power. This can really give your opponents more to worry about with covering options, creating pressure, forcing them to respect you, all made easier.

Same as DK.

Spoiler

Charge Shot Interrupt Power Retention (A)
Sound familiar? This allows Samus to retain the shot in her gun even if interrupted, so long as she hasn't actually shot it out. It makes little sense to begin with that she would lose all that power in one small hit if she never used it. And it give her a greater presence if you were lucky enough to stop her shot. It just makes her all the scarier

Same as DK.

Spoiler

Aerial Mini-Bomb Double Jump Retention (A)
Space jump granted. Samus normally would have her Double jump nullified if she uses her bombs in mid-air. This is fine in concept, but when gimping becomes an issue, it truly diminishes her chances of getting back on stage as she'd normally be forced to use her double jump first. With this, she can get back with bombs, double jump, stall, up-B, shoot, whatever you like. She'll have a far greater off-stage presence and be far more deadly getting back.

I think you're over estimating how much of a vertical boost Samus gains with her down b when recovering (Pro tip: it's a negative gain. It just boosts her horizontal recovery.) Her second jump with a turn-around charge shot into up b is more than enough to get back from an off-stage edgeguard.

Spoiler: Puff

Spoiler

Rising Pound (P*)
I'm not referring to the technique of jumping and using pound right after, that's more of a jump pound. The idea would be to give Jiggs some vertical height when using the pound. This would greatly increase her aerial presence and even though it wouldn't make a HUGE change for her, it still gives more use to one of her most underused moves.

Puff can already do this to some extent and I don't think it should be buffed. Giving the character with the best horizontal recovery a great vertical recovery would just make puff unreasonably harder to edgeguard.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Spoiler

Faster Egg Toss (P*)
As with most projectiles, it takes way too long for them to come out. Yoshi's Egg is no exception. For one it makes him vulnerable unless ledge canceled, it's hard to use offstage and it's just overall slow if whiffed. Making the egg toss faster brings some new tools and combo potential for Yoshi, it also gives him a bit of a long-range edge on some characters.

Given that Yoshi's eggs do more damage, knockback, and hitstun in 64 than other games, I think it's totally reasonable to have his eggs take longer to throw. I feel like having him be able to throw more eggs would make him a bit spammy in neutral and hard to approach.

Spoiler

Aerial Egg Toss Hop (C*)
Idea taken from Smash 4, Giving Yoshi a little hop when performing the egg toss in the air might just give him that last boost he needs to get back on stage. And can be used for ledge cancelling just a little more easily. This move is under consideration only as it is not necessary for good Yoshi players and may just hinder them. To be discussed.

I feel this would completely destroy his DJC abilities off-stage in this game if it just boost him up slightly. This would get rid of a few options when getting back on stage. Allowing Yoshi to stall at the ledge throwing eggs in this game would probably be unbalanced.

Spoiler: Fox

Spoiler

Faster & Longer Firefox (A)
Fox has been given an upgrade on his g-diffusers for the firefox. It now activates a little bit faster and he flies just a bit farther. This gives him more chances to reach the edge before being edgeguarded, and makes him harder to catch off-stage. The boost gives him more off-stage gimp possibilties, along with shine stalling, he can be a master of the aerial combat once more. A small glitch has been encountered however, it is not known whether it is caused by one of these codes or others, but his shine no longer reflects projectiles for some reason. It still does damage, knockback and is cancellable, but the reflection property has been disabled somehow. Should try to fix. Edit: The fix has been found to be an unrelated useless code. Problem has been removed.

I feel like this would just make Fox almost impossible to edgeguard reliably if you can't get to him in time and he can recover farther, giving him even more options than before if he recovers high.

Spoiler: Falcon

Spoiler

Kness of Justice! (AG) could be removed
Any fan of the future installations of smash would know that Falcon's Nair is the same is his 64 Fair. And that his Fair was replaced with a devastating knee with insane knockback on the first few frames with a weak combo hit on the later frames. The same has been done for him in 64. It'd demand a large amount of relearning to get used to this new falcon set-up. It could be thought of as reversing Nair and Fair, while Nair was given an upgrade. It may be removed if players dislike it, but for all intents and purposes it will remain for the time being. It does have the unintended glitch of causing his dtilt to be easily concellable on startup into itself and only itself, so it winds up looking like Ness' dtilt. Not very useful but it's there nonetheless.

I feel that given this game's combo ability, that giving falcon a kill move that's easy to get would just make him broken. Forward air and neutral air are both useful as is in getting combos and extending combos, and giving him a strong kill move would be overkill for falcon.

Spoiler: Pika

Spoiler

Faster Thunder Bolt (C*)
Or his Neutral B if I'm not being obvious enough. His neutral B is his only bad move, if only because it's slow to come out. This could make more combos viable and increase the variety of his attacks far more. However it shouldn't be done overboard. We should decide properly whether it should be done at all, and if so, should be done in the air, the ground, or both. This is seriously a hard choice to make but I trust the community to make the right choice on this.

Pika's neutral b isn't used at all unless you're going for a snipe off the stage. It can't really be used in combos at all or in the neutral so I don't really see a point in trying to buff it. It does its job fine as an edgeguarding tool.

 

[Shears]

"I don't really want to derail you so I'm going to question your intelligence and competence instead of actually provide proper reasoning"
Sorry Shears. I've seen your posts here, you really sound extremely biased when it comes to these concepts. And as for the last sentence you made it clear that you have that bias towards it.
So before anything else. What counts as qualifications for balancing a videogame? Someone who's spent time making videogames? or maybe someone from nintendo themselves? Or are only pro players who are so used to the game by now any changes made will affect their play and create a dissonance of control for them so they'll obviously lash out against it due to their bias towards certain mechanics that may not be perfect but they're so used to them that it doesn't matter even if it were objectively better they'd reject it?
I'm ok with proper reasonings like Elude, but using a mix of the Ad Hominem fallacy and the Argument from Authority fallacy (also known as the Qualifications fallacy) really gets my goat. It just assumes that I'm not as intelligent as you are and is quite frankly extremely arrogant and not worth my time if you continue with that type of response. Feel free to give actual feedback next time instead.

Just because an authority fallacy exists doesn't mean anytime someone pulls the authority card its a fallacy. The fallacy is you thinking a fallacy applies here. Not only are you new here, but you clearly don't know anything about this community if you think my points are invalid or biased.

You're familiar with the butterfly effect right? That heavily applies here. You think you're making a slight balancing change but you're looking at it from your scope and perspective of this game. There is so much to it you can't even begin to understand but because you're completely blind to the depth of this game you'll never imagine theres more to it than you already know and so your attempts to balance it are not only incorrect because you don't understand the game currently, but you aren't considering the domino effect these changes will have. Take a look at wiiu or PM, they are constantly releases patches and updates to try and balance things they add in or change. And everytime they patch or update something, it creates a whole new set of problems that need to be patched and updated. You think Link and Luigi are bad characters but you can't formulate examples outside of regurgitating what you read on a wiki or SB thread. The experiences you have had in 64 does not display the universal set of interactions this game has and so you thinking a change will make something better is only a change that will make it better for you and your small group of players and skill that you interact with. Any small change could be exploited by top level players and completely break the game. If balancing was left to people who are admittedly new to the game (by being new you immediately disqualify yourself from understanding everything or enough to make changes) then we would see a nerf in kirby utilt. Surprise, kirby utilt isn't that great at a high level which is why we saw no kirbys in Genesis top 8. You would be making a character that isn't that great even worse because to mid level and low level players, kirby is broken. You're looking to balance at a casual level, which will greatly interfere and break the game at a high level. You aren't qualified to talk about balancing a game the same way you aren't qualified to coach a professional football team. Casual fans can sit behind a tv and say a coach should have made a different call, but there is so much depth there is a reason they aren't paid millions of dollars to run a billion dollar organization. Same way there is a reason your suggestions for balancing won't balance the game and its why you're not a top player in 64.

Don't take it too personally, I said I support your endeavor as you have put way more work in your initial proposal than anyone before you, just understand why it won't take off with the competitive community. If you're ok with that then go right ahead. I don't want to discourage you from doing work that can benefit casual fans and possibly lead to consultation from top players to truly balance the game (even though I think a lot of top players are still unqualified as I think they will be dinosaurs compared to the future top players and how far this game can go), but you have to understand how limited the support you will get will be and how long of a process it might be and how it may never be taken seriously by the larger competitive community. If you know anything about me, I've done tons of projects and work for this community programming apps, websites, and more and any endeavor, even ones that don't change the game but help the community, are hard to get support on because the people in 64 are so toxic and self destructive. You could hand them the cure to cancer that is 99% effective, they will **** on it because there is 1% failure and they just like to find any excuse to destroy good things.

But if we're bringing up fallacies, the Dunning-Kruger effect might be taking place here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[RPGgrenade]

Just because an authority fallacy exists doesn't mean anytime someone pulls the authority card its a fallacy. The fallacy is you thinking a fallacy applies here. Not only are you new here, but you clearly don't know anything about this community if you think my points are invalid or biased.

You're familiar with the butterfly effect right? That heavily applies here. You think you're making a slight balancing change but you're looking at it from your scope and perspective of this game. There is so much to it you can't even begin to understand but because you're completely blind to the depth of this game you'll never imagine theres more to it than you already know and so your attempts to balance it are not only incorrect because you don't understand the game currently, but you aren't considering the domino effect these changes will have. Take a look at wiiu or PM, they are constantly releases patches and updates to try and balance things they add in or change. And everytime they patch or update something, it creates a whole new set of problems that need to be patched and updated. You think Link and Luigi are bad characters but you can't formulate examples outside of regurgitating what you read on a wiki or SB thread. The experiences you have had in 64 does not display the universal set of interactions this game has and so you thinking a change will make something better is only a change that will make it better for you and your small group of players and skill that you interact with. Any small change could be exploited by top level players and completely break the game. If balancing was left to people who are admittedly new to the game (by being new you immediately disqualify yourself from understanding everything or enough to make changes) then we would see a nerf in kirby utilt. Surprise, kirby utilt isn't that great at a high level which is why we saw no kirbys in Genesis top 8. You would be making a character that isn't that great even worse because to mid level and low level players, kirby is broken. You're looking to balance at a casual level, which will greatly interfere and break the game at a high level. You aren't qualified to talk about balancing a game the same way you aren't qualified to coach a professional football team. Casual fans can sit behind a tv and say a coach should have made a different call, but there is so much depth there is a reason they aren't paid millions of dollars to run a billion dollar organization. Same way there is a reason your suggestions for balancing won't balance the game and its why you're not a top player in 64.

Don't take it too personally, I said I support your endeavor as you have put way more work in your initial proposal than anyone before you, just understand why it won't take off with the competitive community. If you're ok with that then go right ahead. I don't want to discourage you from doing work that can benefit casual fans and possibly lead to consultation from top players to truly balance the game (even though I think a lot of top players are still unqualified as I think they will be dinosaurs compared to the future top players and how far this game can go), but you have to understand how limited the support you will get will be and how long of a process it might be and how it may never be taken seriously by the larger competitive community. If you know anything about me, I've done tons of projects and work for this community programming apps, websites, and more and any endeavor, even ones that don't change the game but help the community, are hard to get support on because the people in 64 are so toxic and self destructive. You could hand them the cure to cancer that is 99% effective, they will **** on it because there is 1% failure and they just like to find any excuse to destroy good things.

But if we're bringing up fallacies, the Dunning-Kruger effect might be taking place here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I'm very sorry, Shears. I was wrong, and I admit I took it a little too personally, and retract my previous points. But this isn't about feeling superior, it's about wanting everyone to contribute, and I'm aware this'd affect top level play a fair amount, but this is exactly why I want every minor change to be thoroughly tested and seen to properly. What I would hope for would be a game where top level play is merely more varied, and possibly even more entertaining to play and to watch. I understand the Dunning Kruger effect and the butterfly effect. But the thing is it's much more manageable with this game than it is with PM and Wii U because the character selection is so small by comparison. It's actually the only reason I have any confidence to say I think I can help provide some balance. So again... sorry.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Your first mistake was giving shears what he wanted.

 

[Shears]

Yes I agree its much more manageable and with step by step testing and adjustments things can certainly be done. Just make sure you're getting good consultation and testing for it and be aware that your current proposed changes may have very negative effects on balancing. The game isn't perfectly balanced as is but its far closer than any other game and I firmly believe the characters and this games meta is still heavily underdeveloped. Even with the current game I wouldn't be surprised if Pika fell to 4th on the tier list as I currently think the tier list people reference today is wildly inaccurate and made without any good metrics or thoughts about the characters and game, instead built on impulsive opinions of every random player with a voice.

I guess my initial post wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. "Don't really want to derail" meant I would like to see you go through with this and work on it but there is something to know before you begin that I would hope doesn't discourage you, hence why I don't want you to be derailed/discouraged from this project. "This is why the current competitive 64 community won't accept this mod" was the thing to know know before beginning, its not a reason to not do it just don't use appealing the competitive 64 community as a reason to take on this project.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Lol I realize that's a mistake, but whatever, I was still out of line. I'll review your criticisms thoroughly and try to provide my reasonings and compromises if they are necessary to make.

WARNING: These are my opinions and nothing more. Except for Link, those are HARD FACTS.

Facts about the subjectiveness of something called "emergent gameplay" isn't something you can simply state outright without first trying it out for yourself and with several other testers. This has been shown many times with terrible games that attempted to release a product without playtesting whether it was any good to begin with because they thought it was a good idea. So saying anything like "so and so" is a fact is misleading, anything I say is also an opinion, but I've spent enough time making and playing games in general to make the claims I'm making with some certainty. But still... I'll try to answer everything properly.

Spoiler

Why would you take the defining feature of 64 and nerf it? I'm pretty sure what draws in the most people to 64 other than nostalgia is the large amount of hitstun present in the game and the variety and complexity of the combos you are able to do. Take it away and you're left with a slower version of melee.

Quite simply because it's enormous. Plus as mentioned above we can tweak it to whatever is preferred and can be removed entirely if it's so highly demanded. Again, it's a matter of trying it out for yourself to see if it truly is as bad as you're imagining. And I'd have to disagree with the complexity of the combos if you may as well not even do anything and let yourself get hit, even with DI it's near impossible anyway. The complexity of inescapable combos is limited. As evidenced by so many players (aside from maybe Isai) doing the exact same things. Variety isn't 64's strong suit as I've noticed, and with so few ways to escape combos, the only real way to get better is to do what everyone else is doing. Again, this can be removed if it's suggested enough and really causes issues.

Spoiler

Sheildbreaks will become almost non-existent with the decreased hitstun. You really only see shieldbreaks with Kirby, Yoshi, Ness and sometimes Samus and Mario at high levels of play anyways.

I get the feeling you may have overlooked the idea that the shields are weakened as well as hitstun being decreased. With all these changes I've managed shield breaks with Link himself, and they were not easy, mind you. Kirby and the like still have shield breaks, their just harder to pull off the same way. It's just so shield breaks are more common for some and not as common for the more common breakers. Again, try it out.

Spoiler

NO. Combos will have already been weakened with the nerf to hitstun. Adding in more DI would almost guarentee that no good combos would ever happen again. Crazy levels of DI are already achievable and to make it even more absurd would ruin combos even further.

Agreed. For the most part I didn't intend to keep this one. So at least we agree on that front. But again, try it out and see what happens. You can do all the theorizing in the world but without actual testing you can't say anything for certain (I'll be repeating that a lot I'm sure)

Spoiler

I feel like this would make some characters impossible to approach. Imagine if Pika could just spam SHFFL up airs. With his disjointed hitboxes, i can't imagine ever approaching would be a good idea for the other player.

And this is the reason I wanted to also decrease hitstun and not give Pika anything. I'm not sure if you comprehend that these ideas were already considered. You think I haven't seen Axe play Pikachu in melee? I know exactly what can happen with that particular issue and others alike @_@. But inversely every other character has increased viability options as well with the FF aerials which you don't seem opposed to assuming these are objections and the rest are acceptable.

Spoiler: Link

Spoiler

Link's boomerang actually works well with the current hitstun of his moves. Up tilt, down tilt, up smash, neutral air and up air can all be used to combo into boomerang, so decreasing the startup speed isn't really going to do much other than make Link more spammy in his projectile use.

As I think has been noted, this is partially consequence of said decreased hitstun. I had considered perhaps only making it faster in say... midair, and unchanged on the ground, so that some risk-reward factor was involved as Link getting hit out in the air could be extremely detrimental. And while it may increase spamminess, wiht decreased hitstun it would be validated anyway. And still it hasn't made things too crazily spammy anyway.

Spoiler: Link

Spoiler

Decreasing the startup on the bomb pull would make Link the spammiest character in any of the smash games. If you watch top level Link players, he already can create an iron wall of projectiles and allowing him to create them faster would just be boring to play and watch.

It CAN be used to spam a mine-field, for sure, but that hardly counts as an iron wall. I agree maybe having it on both his aerial bomb take out and grounded ones may be too much, so perhaps in the air it is decreased instead? The thing is with the universal changes, things have sped up dramatically, and taking out bombs became near impossible unless this change was made, characters can FF aerials and SHFFL quite effectively, and with decreased hitstun the bombs don't stop opponents nearly as long, as the thing is with the changes made prior as a base this is an almost very necessary change. What I see as a recurring issue is that it becomes difficult for the more advanced players to consider all the changes at once, effectively making them misunderstand the changes. But still. Try it out.

Spoiler: Link

Spoiler

Link can already use his boomerang to turn himself around in the air, so i don't think this change is necessary. Bringing up Link's bomb recovery isn't really a strong point either. It's hardly used and it doesn't even give that much extra distance. You also shouldn't really be doing off-stage edgeguards with most of the cast except for, like, pika, kirby, and mario. The rest of the cast really only goes off stage when they can get back with a jump and an up b. Link best off-stage move, bair, already has him facing the ledge anyways.

It's strange that regardless of that, I've edge-guarded good Pikas off-stage with Link using a dair as the finisher. It's not so much as what should be done in the game, but rather increasing what CAN be done. As for the bomb recovery, with the decreased take out of the bomb, whaddya know, it's actually useful because I explode higher up. And if the boomerang coming out is faster, still, wow, I can turn around more easily and get that up-B to ledge. See what this is getting at? It's not about the single changes made, it's about all the changes made together in conjunction that make the difference. As for the turn-around, It's just to increase Link's recovery so it's has that final bit of usefulness it needs for that particular scenario. So maybe it can be forgotten, but still I'd like to have it to test out the difference.

Spoiler: Link

Spoiler

Not once in the years I've played Link have I thought that bombs needed extra knockback. This could actually remove some combo opportunities for Link.

Which is why it was merely under consideration. Also maybe if you played the other games you could see the applications of it because it actually increases the combo opportunities. But that's not really necessary here.

Spoiler: DK

Spoiler

You can already charge up his punch in between taking stocks and during spacing battles, so I don't see much of a need for a change.

This is actually a very good point... so far it hasn't had any negligable results but so far I haven't seen anyone use DK well in person to actually test it. So the thing is if someone who uses DK a lot says it negatively affects their game because their timing in a spacing battle will decrease because of less reverse B cancels... I can see why this could be changed. Maybe instead of a 50% decrease in time to charge, it could be a 20% decrease or less so just so it's a little more prevalent and easier to get due to the increase of speed of the game overall.

Spoiler: DK

Spoiler

I think this would make using your charge have very little risk. You could just throw out a punch as your opponent is approaching and hope it connects. If it doesn't and you get hit, oh well, try again. You're pretty much giving DK a huge kill option in neutral with no downside.

That was kind of the idea. It still HAS the risk, but it's merely decreased. The punish you can get from it if you manage to get away from it however would be said risk, and said risk would still be maintained, and it can still be interrupted afterwards. There's a similar scenario in PM, with Luigi that occurs frequently. His misfire can be retained if interrupted. So basically it makes luigi suddenly terrifying. I don't think this change is a big problem if the speed of the charge is reduced, however. So maybe a change on the previous part is necessary. And these ideas will primarily apply to Samus as well, where the charge speed doesn't seem to affect things negatively, but it may be necessary.

Spoiler: DK

Spoiler

Completely useless given that his down air and forward air both have huge hitboxes and would probably come out faster than his down-b would.

Unnecessary does not equal bad, a neutral change is a change that affects things none. Plus an extra option could always be welcome for some unpredictability and increase in combo complexity.

Spoiler: Samus

Spoiler

Same as DK.

Spoiler

Same as DK.

This isn't the case with her current set-up, as I've tested it currently. But if she were able to charge in midair as DK can, then maybe you'd be right on this front. Don't ahve the code to do that so I haven't tested it at all yet...

Spoiler: Samus

Spoiler

I think you're over estimating how much of a vertical boost Samus gains with her down b when recovering (Pro tip: it's a negative gain. It just boosts her horizontal recovery.) Her second jump with a turn-around charge shot into up b is more than enough to get back from an off-stage edgeguard.

Haha.. no. I wasn't saying it was a positive gain at all. It's not about that gain there. It's about merely retaining the second jump for when you're closer tot he edge to make her scarier to edgeguard. I'm aware she has ways back but I think making her a scarier ledge force could increase her viability a large amount.

Spoiler: Puff

Spoiler

Puff can already do this to some extent and I don't think it should be buffed. Giving the character with the best horizontal recovery a great vertical recovery would just make puff unreasonably harder to edgeguard.

Possibly. I'd have to check it out. It seems to have no real terrible effects in the other smash games but in this case it just might as her aerials are scarier.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Spoiler

Given that Yoshi's eggs do more damage, knockback, and hitstun in 64 than other games, I think it's totally reasonable to have his eggs take longer to throw. I feel like having him be able to throw more eggs would make him a bit spammy in neutral and hard to approach.

Again if hitstun is decreased this will be necessary, and while it being that long cuz of their strength is good in theory, the fact it takes nearly two seconds for the entire animation to transpire is far too much.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Spoiler

I feel this would completely destroy his DJC abilities off-stage in this game if it just boost him up slightly. This would get rid of a few options when getting back on stage. Allowing Yoshi to stall at the ledge throwing eggs in this game would probably be unbalanced.

This was merely considered, afterall. So it needs to be tested.

Spoiler: Fox

Spoiler

I feel like this would just make Fox almost impossible to edgeguard reliably if you can't get to him in time and he can recover farther, giving him even more options than before if he recovers high.

The whole point was to make it impossible to edgeguard him reliably. It's still doable, and can be interrupted, etc etc. But it's just harder to do so. The less edgeguardability was the way I thought to raise his capacity a bit. But again the amount can be tweaked. both in time before launch and distance of launch.

Spoiler: Falcon

Spoiler

I feel that given this game's combo ability, that giving falcon a kill move that's easy to get would just make him broken. Forward air and neutral air are both useful as is in getting combos and extending combos, and giving him a strong kill move would be overkill for falcon.

As stated previously, the decreased hitstun makes this not that big of an issue. Plus, the knee practically acts the same as the nair, but instead is the fair, while the fair has been moved over to the nair position. It's just a mildly improved Nair in range. Not really anything else. Try it out.

Spoiler: Pika

Spoiler

Pika's neutral b isn't used at all unless you're going for a snipe off the stage. It can't really be used in combos at all or in the neutral so I don't really see a point in trying to buff it. It does its job fine as an edgeguarding tool.

Yeah... Pikachu's thunder I wasn't thinking to make faster anyway. It just was the common complaint of pika players that they wish was better in some regard.

 

[Capos]

I've done tons of projects and work for this community programming apps, websites, and more and any endeavor, even ones that don't change the game but help the community, are hard to get support on because the people in 64 are so toxic and self destructive.

What specifically is this a reference to?

and I'm aware this'd affect top level play a fair amount, but this is exactly why I want every minor change to be thoroughly tested and seen to properly. What I would hope for would be a game where top level play is merely more varied, and possibly even more entertaining to play and to watch.

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Zantetsu's. From your reply you seemed to be ok with that. So I guess my point is that I don't think your changes will affect top level play or make it more entertaining, because I believe that absolutely no top level play will happen on this game. I don't mean that to be harsh, but because if you're not completely ok with that being what happens, I think you should evaluate whether you want to continue this project.

 

[RPGgrenade]

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Zantetsu's. From your reply you seemed to be ok with that. So I guess my point is that I don't think your changes will affect top level play or make it more entertaining, because I believe that absolutely no top level play will happen on this game. I don't mean that to be harsh, but because if you're not completely ok with that being what happens, I think you should evaluate whether you want to continue this project.

Meh. No skin off my nose.

 

[Shears]

What specifically is this a reference to?

Have you ever tried doing anything for this community? These people are very toxic and self destructive. They won't even switch to a better online emulator to help themselves or help contribute to the community in producing data, references, documentation or any type of resource to easily be found, sorted, and linked for the world to have access to.

 

[KnitePhox]

I stopped reading at decreased hitstun code, best of luck for your mod. I'll probably still try it out.

 

[Deleted member]

Hi guys. I'm working on a little something, and would like your advice if you have any (even outright saying I should stop is welcome). But perhaps it'd be best to introduce myself a little bit.

I'm RPGgrenade, and I'm relatively new to the competitive scene in smash. However, I've dipped my toes in just about all the games' competitive scenes, from 64, to melee, brawl, PM, smash 4 and even smash flash 2. I've been impressed and amazed by the skill, different possible combos and speed that each game provides in its own right when players reach the higher levels of play.

I'm also a software engineering student and aspiring game designer, so seeing how the meta of the games has gotten from something so simple to such complexity has been entrenched in my mind ever since I got into the competitive side of smash a few years back. However, I think I've found my preference in both Project M and Smash 64. But for some reason I've been drifting away from 64 entirely, and I wasn't sure why.

For me at least, it was about the imbalance. As I'm sure you all know there's a huge series of debates over which character is better or worse and whether the game is super unbalanced or more balanced than the others. While it's true it is far more balanced than say melee or Brawl, I feel it isn't quite as balanced as Project M, and Smash 4 is starting to catch up to that it appears. The reason 64 has remained as possibly the most balanced is simply because of a lack of a varied cast. The larger the cast, the harder to balance for competitive play. Project M excels at this because it was the main intent since they began to work on it until it had to stop, creating what most would consider a pretty competitively balanced game overall.

This imbalance doesn't sit well with me as a game designer and having a lot of nostalgic feelings for this game. The low tier players need a lot more work to catch up to the high tier players, regardless of skill level, and that seemed to be a bit unfair (as I'm sure many have complained about Kirby's utilt and such.) And that's why I started my little project.

Project Shark
​

As Madao has so kindly provided us with his gameshark codes, and I looked into what has been made, I got the idea for this project.

I have two primary goals:

1. Balance the gameplay by buffing up the lower tiers.
2. Changing some universal rules to speed up the game.

I have one rule I must not break:

1. Only buff. Never nerf.

If somehow I have violated these somewhat objective rules, I'll have to reconsider my changes and see what can be done.
The reasons for these goals and rules may seem obvious to some and unclear to others.
For the first goal, I'm seeking to make the tier lists more difficult to establish, essentially making it so the tier list depends on the players rather than just the characters.
For the second goal, It is merely a consequence of the previous goal, as some characters benefit greatly from universal speed buffs, while other characters were barely affected. This goal however must be kept as a secondary consideration overall
For the rule, it is a matter of fan satisfaction and the obvious flaws nintendo has been making with smash 4. They tended to nerf high tiers down rather than buff low tiers up. Their concept is good for a party game, but for us, in the 64 community, most of us are here for hardcore competitive reasons at this point, and it seems unfair to get rid of the tools of other characters, making the game less intense, and rather I'd prefer to give other characters more tools to work with that don't have as many good ones.

I hope I have made my intentions clear and at this point no one is shaking their heads at me, so I will address what I believe to be some standard responses before stating what changed I've made :

"The 19XX hack already exists"
Yes, it does in fact exist. It is a great hack and was worked on extensively, and I think it deserves all the praises it gets. However it is a tournament/practice tool for stage selection and debugging, not a character and gameplay balance hack. They are not the same things and I'm just trying to make that difference.

"People have tried to balance the game before and failed"
I'm not entirely sure where I heard this exactly but it seemed to be the case that this was attempted at some point but was never full realized. I have yet to see evidence of this but it has been talked about. I guess the meaning behind this statement is partially due to having little faith it can be executed properly and partly because they believe the community wouldn't embrace any changes made. And I'm perfectly ok with both, actually. I don't expect smash 64 to suddenly change because I made a bunch of tweaks from a game designer's perspective. I'm merely sharing this for insight and for my own fun with my friends. Sharing is caring :3

"Smash 64 is perfect the way it is."
If you believe this to be the case be my guest and ignore my claims, but I simply believe this game can be made to be much more fun than it already is without ruining what it already has, due to the fact that the time of its creation didn't have much in the way of testing what it is we currently do with the game. It can be improved upon without hurting it.

"The character in Smash 64 are perfectly balanced, there's no need to change them."
There's no 'need' to do anything regarding the game if everyone is perfectly content with how it is. But from what I've seen, what I hear and from the statistics of characters used in tournament, there is something to be desired from just about every character, the lower the tier the more likely it is that they have something left to be desired. This is all subjective, and can be debated at length, but I think the current state of tournaments and character usage speaks for itself, as most all players I've tested this with have seen greater satisfaction from the changes I've made.
​

I may have missed a few but these were the general remarks made when someone was against the ideas, each are valid, but highly subjective, or pessimistic, or simply red herrings that don't address what it is I want to do. So now I will share the codes (that are practically ripped from the GameShark Codes Collection topic) for which I have chosen. I will also disclose the ideas I've had in mind for the characters I believe haven't had enough changes to them or could be improved upon.

Universal Changes​

​

Changes made to the physics engine of the game itself, generally allowing for harder to pull off combos for more escape potential, but also for more combo capabilities overall.​

Fast Fall Aerials:
Smash 64 is different from the other smash games in that you aren't able to fast fall during an aerial attack, unlike in all the other smash games where this is a prominent mechanic. So I've introduced it for two reasons. One... we have a chance for different types of combos, baits, psych outs and mind games in 64 as a whole, and two. It introduces the SHFFL to characters who benefit from it most. Particularly the characters with very long lasting aerials powerful aerials that aren't able to fully capitalize on them. This does not get rid of the standard non-fast fall combos moves, you'll just need to be a bit more concious of the fast fall in order to not mess up half way.
Codes:
81129E3A 9160
81129E4E 9160
81129E62 9160
81129E76 9160
81129E8A 9160

Decreased Hitstun:
A very large reason more players don't pick up smash 64 is because it is often referred to as "Hitstun: The Game". The reason for this is simple. There is a LOT of hitstun in this game, a lot more than is honestly necessary. So I have attempted to decrease the hitstun to a point where it can benefit those trying to escape combos enough against players who aren't fast enough to pull off faster combos. Essentially raising the combo skill cap (at least in theory). I tried for a number that was balanced and acceptable, but I fully understand it may be too little, so this is one I want feedback to change up a little bit in order to achieve the balance people desire.
Codes:
810EA1B2 4010

Weakened Shields:
This may seem like a nerf, but in fact it is more like a nerf to the whole cast so that it can be at a similar point it was at before. Due to the decreased hitstun, shieldstun has also decreased as a side effect, and as such, shield breaker combos will almost never work as well. This is no fun, and honestly it's a big part of why people enjoy Smash 64 at times. Some of the best moments with the greatest hype include shield breaks. So as a way to further enforce skill with the shield and shield BREAKING, the shields will now start with less health at all times, so that shield breaks are still possible even with the decreased hitstun. This will need to be balanced according to the hitstun, so it may vary.
Codes:
81148342 0009
810D7A6E 0028
810E624A 0028

Increased DI:
Part of what makes Smash 64 so interesting is that it's the only game in the franchise without some form of angle affecting directional influence. This however is advented by the increase of what is usually referred to as "smash DI" in the other smash games following, which is just called DI here. This MAY not be the best change however, as it can make escaping combos exceedingly easy, and can be argued it nerfs more of the cast. So I would like feedback on this one, however currently DI has been increased 50% in this change, and would be appreciated if the changes are welcomed or shunned.
Codes:
8018C0E1 0046

Shortened Short Hop:
This change was brought on due to certain characters simply having too high of a short hop, meaning they couldn't make many combos work for them due to their strong *** legs. This was done to help benefit those characters, and overall it should help the entire cast have faster ground combos using the SHFFL technique as well. Two characters that may be affected by this change negatively are Fox and Captain Falcon, of which I'll need feedback (short hop laser is only single, not double, and falcon just jumps very little, which may be great or horrible). I would like feedback on this one as well.
Codes:
8113F70E 4199

Character Specific Changes
​

The real reason you may be reading this. To note, the top tiers are practically untouched. Several of these implementations have already been done, some may be removed, some are under consideration to be included and some are just ideas for the sake of trying them out. * will indicate that a code does not currently exist for the idea if it has not been added in.
Glossary
A = Added
AG =Added with unintended Glitch
P = Planned
C = Considered

Link (The Hero of Time) ​

Link is solidly low tier as we all know. But most of this can be chalked up to three things, one minor, one semi important and one critical. Minorly his projectile speed isn't all too fast when taking them out. Semi important his grab is incredibly slow. Critically his recovery is absolute balls (I think we can all agree). So here are the changes for Link so he can truly be the hero of Time itself

Faster Boomerang Throw (A)
The boomerang is a crazy projectile, it goes insanely far, can be angled a variety of ways, bounces off surfaces, is very fast and can save you in many dire sitations. It's one drawback? It takes quite some time for it to be thrown. This code was chosen as it increases one of Link's greatest tools in its strength by allowing greater use in defense, edgeguards and combos alike, giving Link a slightly greater tool.
Codes:
80163A27 00C0
80163AA7 00C0

Faster Bomb Pull-Out (A)
Link's bombs are annoying, set up traps, great for edge guards, can save you from a shield break, keep pressure off you and interrupt combos, can hit opponents weakly or strongly, and are overall greatly versatile. However, one issue remains. He takes forever to pull one out. Considering Link takes an instant to take them out in his games, it seems odd he takes his sweet time on taking out a bomb. The bombs are dangerous for combo set ups. And with this small change in lightly speeding up his bomb pull-out, Link's greatest tool becomes even more deadly.
Codes:
801645CF 00C0
8016462B 00C0

Increased Air Up-B Height (A)
Link's Up-B is terrible for recovery, plain and simple, it is barely equal to his second jump, it has little protection from above or below, the hitboxes don't last long, and the height is trash and the horizontal movement is no more than his aerial movement. Overall a terrible recovery move. So it has been increased considerably in height. It lasts about as long, hitboxes are the same, but his vertical boost is much higher is all. About a full Link body height higher. It greatly increases his ability to get back to stage.
Codes:
8116438A 42AC

Increased Speed of Full Grab (P*)
Link has some real good range on his grab, and it is very fast coming out at times. It throws far and is a great defense. The problem? It takes forever to pull back and is insanely punishable if missed. So for this change it'd be recommended that Link's grab be increased in speed in perhaps 50%, not something crazy otherwise that throws the whole balance into disarray, but simply to give Link one more tool to work with when in a pinch.

Turn Around Air Up-B (P*)
What's with most of the cast being perfectly able to decide whether or not to turn around during their recovery, while others can't even if they tried. Some characters can compensate for this. DK with his reverse B-cancel, Samus is floaty enough to shoot in the right direction as well. Link however is screwed when it comes to long recovery unless he uses his boomerang, but that takes a considerable amount of precious time if you happen to be falling to your doom, this is important because of Link's Bomb recovery. Link has a bomb recovery in which he takes out a bomb or throws one he already holds after being knocked off. He'll throw it beneath him softly, bair the bomb, and DI towards the stage during the frames of hitlag, where he can, if he's lucky, Up-B towards the stage. However, no matter how this is done, Link is stuck looking away from the stage and must land on it instead of grab the ledge. There's SOME ways around this, like throwing the boomerang if you saved the second jump, but other than this there's no viable option to get back. All because of this strange mechanic. The idea is that Link could use this in order to have more devastating off-stage edgeguards, better chances at recovery and just a little more mobility overall

Increased Bomb Knockback (C*)
Link's Bombs have little to no knockback on them. This is great for certain situations, for setting up combos, etc. All that is being considered is a light increase in the amount of knockback these bombs provide, to both increase his bomb recovery and to give a little more to the combos he may have. This isn't too important though and is only under minor consideration overall.

Donkey Kong (King of the Jungle) ​

Donkey Kong (Dong), powerful, large, pretty fast for his size. An overall powerhouse and great with platforms (just like a monkey), his weaknesses mainly being his vertical recovery, lack of offstage presence and is straight up combo-food. While the latter can't really be changed greatly, there are some things given to increase his tools and possibly make him reign the jungle once more.

Speedy Charge Punch (A)
We all fear it if we don't expect it. It's the crazy powerful punch from DK's mighty fist. Now there is a mild drawback to this buff, while you DO have greater chances at landing this finisher, it decreases the time you can reverse B cancel, which I know is a very good move if you use DK. However it has not been removed and this change can be reduced in speed in order to give you more time. This may not even be the best thing and can be discussed to see if ti can be removed or simply changed a bit.
Codes:
8015B2B3 00C0
8015B2FF 00C0
8015B343 00C0
8015B37F 00C0

Charge Punch Interrupt Power Retention (A)
Quite a name on this one isn't it? Basically what it is is that normally when you get interrupted mid charge punch, the power goes away even if it was painstakingly built up. This has been removed just to keep the players on their toes even if they were lucky enough to interrupt the move. Making it just a little bit more viable.
Codes:
8115AF18 2400

Increased Up-B Vertical Height (A)
This one was a must. DK's recovery travels far, horizontal, but you go offstage and do just about anything you're almost never getting back. This is useful for several possibly gimp scenarios. Including run-off stage throw kills, which DK can get back to stage from if he has this on him. His recovery also goes farther as a result of this slight height increase. He can still be gimped from above, but now he's just a bit more menacing off stage.
Codes:
8018C874 003A

Aerial Down-B Meteor (P*)
What the heck are you talking about. DK can't Down-B in the smash games. True except for the most recent one which gave me this idea. Is it too powerful? perhaps, crazy? perhaps. But the idea is to make it so the hitboxes only appear at DK's hands, being quite small, having quite some endlag to the move, and making the hitboxes meteor. I'm aware DK already have two of them, but he would far scarier if he had another option like this. Plus he's the biggest, heaviest and easiest character to combo, it seems relatively fair in the long run. And it can be done. But of course this demands a code and testing to see if it's fair.

Armored Attacks (C*)
DK is large, and powerful, and it seems a little dumb he can be hit out of some of his stronger moves. For this we should grant him Yoshi's jump armor for some of his power powerful attacks (possibly just smash attacks). He already has this on some moves as is for a frame or more. But it'd far more menacing if a perfectly timed smash attack was impossible to hit him out of.

Samus Aran (The Bounty Hunter)
​

Samus is extremely floaty, and is great off stage when getting back. What if she were even better? Her downsides are that she can be gimped pretty hard and her best weapon, the charge shot, takes a long time to charge and is quite limited at times. Making this campy character campier might not be fun for some, but it might just make her far more deadly.

Faster Charge Shot (A)
Samus has been given an upgrade to her gun, one of these being a faster charge shot. Same power, can be canceled all the same, simply faster to charge to full power. This can really give your opponents more to worry about with covering options, creating pressure, forcing them to respect you, all made easier.
Codes:
8015D5CF 0010

Faster Ground Uncharged Shot (A)
Simply put. You are able to shoot out a defensive uncharged shot more quickly than you normally could have. This gives her more spacing tools and can be harder to approach due to it.
Codes:
8112A44E D640

Charge Shot Interrupt Power Retention (A)
Sound familiar? This allows Samus to retain the shot in her gun even if interrupted, so long as she hasn't actually shot it out. It makes little sense to begin with that she would lose all that power in one small hit if she never used it. And it give her a greater presence if you were lucky enough to stop her shot. It just makes her all the scarier
Codes:
8115D348 2400

Aerial Mini-Bomb Double Jump Retention (A)
Space jump granted. Samus normally would have her Double jump nullified if she uses her bombs in mid-air. This is fine in concept, but when gimping becomes an issue, it truly diminishes her chances of getting back on stage as she'd normally be forced to use her double jump first. With this, she can get back with bombs, double jump, stall, up-B, shoot, whatever you like. She'll have a far greater off-stage presence and be far more deadly getting back.
Codes:
8115E1C4 2400
8115E2F4 2400

Increased Up-B Height (A)
Now she's really terrifying off stage. Normally gimping wasn't the greatest strongsuit of Samus because her Up-B wasn't high enough to compensate for the lag her aerials provided her. Now she has the chances to get back to stage before interrupted. Also allowing for some scary get-ups with the up-B if need be. It was already a good move, but now it's even scarier.
Codes:
8115DEC6 429A

Increased Full Grab Speed (P*)
Samus has a really slow grab. Possibly even slower than Link's. This however can be made better if we increase the speed of it. This would give her an extra tool and would make her quite scary to approach along with all her other tool from long range.

Aerial Charging Shot That's Cancelable (C*)
Still under consideration as this may be too much for her to have. This is inspired off the fact this can be done in Project M and it works well for her. Still, this is subject to debate

Ness (Savior of Onett) ​

Ness is scary if used well. His DJC gives him a lot of ground focus and he can deal a lot of punishment. His back throw is the stuff of nightmares and he's wonky to hit. His problem? Slow and inneffective Specials. His recovery goes relatively far, but is terrible off stage in case he wants to edge guard. And his specials are just too slow to be useful. Limiting him tremendously.

Increased Up-B recovery distance (A)
Ness' recovery is weird, it demands you aim your own attack at yourself in a ditch attempt to get back to stage. While making this better is limited, one of the best ways to do this is to just have his recovery have insane reach. The distance has been increased an insane amount and could be considered ridiculous. But this makes edgeguarding him very difficult, as he will likely get back from a crazy distance if you're not careful, making it easier to survive and dole out the punishment he can dish out.
Codes:
8015500B 0068

Faster PK Fire Throw (P*)
Ness is a psychic. As such he has psychic attacks. But for some reason making fire make him incredibly slow. He takes nearly a full second between starting the cast to the end of the cast. His PK Fire can be a great tool, you can DI out of it but it can relay pressure and really mess up opponents off-stage... if it weren't so slow to come out and put him in such great risk. Increasing the aerial and ground start-up and end-lag of the move would greatly increase the use of it in combos, pressure, and off-stage play.

PK Magnet Shine! (P*)
PK Magnet is great! If you're fighting Samus and you can read the charge shot just in time and you aren't in hitstun. Which is something that'll never happen in this game at a higher level. The move is practically useless, and is only occasionally used to quickly grab ledge. Wouldn't it be nice if it had, say, the properties of Fox's Shine? It would have weaker knockback, and do less damage. But the idea is that it would function practically the same. Similar hitbox, cancellable on landing (with DJC that could be useful), and would have a faster start-up and end-lag. I see it being used it many more combos if this were the case, and it can be used to edge-guard and stall off-stage more safely.

Luigi (Best Lil Bro)
​

Here's the thing. I honestly have no idea what to give Luigi to make him better. His problem is a large short hop and slow fall. But this was mostly fixed with the universal fixes. I was thinking maybe he should have greater recovery than his brother. But I'm not sure how this'd help. Luigi is the enigma, and I need help to make him better. However, one thing can be changed for sure.
Faster Fireball Throw (P*)
Lugi's Lettuces are slow, and go straight, they provide little pressure and it's not that great overall. What's the fix to this? Well first of all a faster throw of these little balls. If they come out faster, they have slightly greater pressure, and can provide just a little more cover offstage if you're a little dynamic about it. Decreases the start-up and end-lag should give him a bit of a leg up.

Faster Fireballs (C*)
As well as throwing them faster, making the lettuce faster as well can increase the pressure they excude. But this is still under debate at they aren't exactly better when faster. It may lead to the same issue as before.

Better Recovery? (C*)
This one is more of a shot in the dark. As the larger brother with greater jumping capacity, it seems fair to make Luigi's recovery just better overall. But is this better? worse? pointless? how would this be done if at all? Luigi's recovery is still difficult to see how it can be improved.

Mario (Best Big Bro) ​

Poster boy of nintendo. Italian person and plumber who rarely does his job. What is lacking for Mario to begin with? I'm honestly without any ideas whatsoever with Mario because I can't see how he can be improved without fundamentally breaking him. So any suggestions at all are welcome!

JigglyPuff (The Eyes of Death) ​

Puff is very floaty, very maneuverable in the air, and terrifying with her rest. And quite honestly a very good character overall, and has the teleport! So these changes would be for her least used moves that could give her an extra float up to the top.

Ultra Sing! (P*)
Jiggly's Sing is near useless. It doesn't help for recovery, it almost never lands, does nothing to aerial opponents, and when it does land the opponent has already woken up by the time her concert's over. What could fix these issues. Well for one, her sing could be quite a bit faster. It'd occupy less time and give you a chance to actually make use of the advantage if landed. Another would be incresing the hitboxes. The three little hitboxes barely occupy space, and as such will rarely affect most characters with a little range (which is all of them pretty much). Finally, it should do a single 1% damage to aerial opponents, applying weak stun so they get knocked away ever so slightly. Just so she's not absolutely helpless. The move still won't be great, but it'd be way better.

Rising Pound (P*)
I'm not referring to the technique of jumping and using pound right after, that's more of a jump pound. The idea would be to give Jiggs some vertical height when using the pound. This would greatly increase her aerial presence and even though it wouldn't make a HUGE change for her, it still gives more use to one of her most underused moves.

Yoshi (The Happy Dinosaur)
​

Yoshi has jump armor, along with the DJC, can force people into his egg, and whatnot. What exactly could be done to make him better? Well, let me try.

Faster Egg Toss (P*)
As with most projectiles, it takes way too long for them to come out. Yoshi's Egg is no exception. For one it makes him vulnerable unless ledge canceled, it's hard to use offstage and it's just overall slow if whiffed. Making the egg toss faster brings some new tools and combo potential for Yoshi, it also gives him a bit of a long-range edge on some characters.

Faster Tongue Grab (P*)
Yoshi's another one of those characters that struggles with his grab. Not as bad as some but still bad nonetheless. The idea would be to speed it up to merely make it slightly less punishable.

Aerial Egg Toss Hop (C*)
Idea taken from Smash 4, Giving Yoshi a little hop when performing the egg toss in the air might just give him that last boost he needs to get back on stage. And can be used for ledge cancelling just a little more easily. This move is under consideration only as it is not necessary for good Yoshi players and may just hinder them. To be discussed.

Fox (The Arwing Commander)
​

Fox is fast, scary, and can shine, and has the best projectile in the game. But why is he so low compared to the others? It's because of his slow recovery. So what could increase the deadliness of this fox to make him really shoot you out of the sky?

Faster & Longer Firefox (A)
Fox has been given an upgrade on his g-diffusers for the firefox. It now activates a little bit faster and he flies just a bit farther. This gives him more chances to reach the edge before being edgeguarded, and makes him harder to catch off-stage. The boost gives him more off-stage gimp possibilties, along with shine stalling, he can be a master of the aerial combat once more. A small glitch has been encountered however, it is not known whether it is caused by one of these codes or others, but his shine no longer reflects projectiles for some reason. It still does damage, knockback and is cancellable, but the reflection property has been disabled somehow. Should try to fix. Edit: The fix has been found to be an unrelated useless code. Problem has been removed.
Codes:
8115C716 42F7
8115C6F2 42F7
8015BFC3 0018

Fast Falling Laser (A)
This is an odd one. Not sure if it should be added as I don't know if it'd make laser use better or just harder. But it still under consideration, and if it works well in conjunction with all other things considered, I don't see why it can't be a good thing to have. It's currently added. But it can be removed if necessary.
Codes:
8112A29A 9160

Captain Falcon (FALCON PWANCH!)
​

Falcon has devastating grabs, amazing combos, crazy speed, awesome moves (which he wants you to show) and is overall probably the most recognizable character to come out of Smash Bros. But there's still a few things that can be improved. And one that is more service to fans of future games.

Improved Horizontal Up-B Movement (A)
Despite Falcon's awesomeness. One thing remains kinda bad. His recovery move. It's great for attack and finishing off-stage, as well as being good for getting back when close up. But sometimes it falls just short. So we've increased the distance. By a fair amount. It makes his off-stage up-B finishers more devastating, his recovery more menacing and likely to work, and he just flies through the air like a falcon should. Overall a great move for him to have.
Codes:
8018C909 00A0
8018C90D 00A0
8018C911 00A0

Kness of Justice! (AG) could be removed
Any fan of the future installations of smash would know that Falcon's Nair is the same is his 64 Fair. And that his Fair was replaced with a devastating knee with insane knockback on the first few frames with a weak combo hit on the later frames. The same has been done for him in 64. It'd demand a large amount of relearning to get used to this new falcon set-up. It could be thought of as reversing Nair and Fair, while Nair was given an upgrade. It may be removed if players dislike it, but for all intents and purposes it will remain for the time being. It does have the unintended glitch of causing his dtilt to be easily concellable on startup into itself and only itself, so it winds up looking like Ness' dtilt. Not very useful but it's there nonetheless.
Codes:
81121D3E 0655
81121D42 1634
81121D32 0667
81121D36 16A4
81121D44 8000
81121CD4 0000
81121CD6 17D4

Kirby (The Star Warrior)
​

This puffball is practically the essence of fear to a low tier player. He's easy to pick up, has great hitboxes and combos, fantastic recovery, great punish options, and just about nothing about him is useless... well... almost nothing. There's a few moves that can be improved upon. Though overall they shouldn't change much in the way of Kirby.

Quickly Cancelled Rock (C*)
I see it a lot with newer players that they use the rock a lot. It does good damage and knockback, and falls quickly. But it's easy to dodge and kinda silly. A good improvement to this while not increasing its viability too much, is making it faster to cancel. It takes a bit of time to get out of it once you've gone rock mode. But if it were faster to get out of as well as faster to get out. That might make it a more viable tool for kirby players. Perhaps to throw off edgeguards.

Faster Inhale Endlag (C*)
I'm not too sure about this one as Kirby's inhale on the ledge can be horrible at times. But at the same time not so much. Kirby's inhale is rarely used for its primary purpose (copy) nor its secondary purpose (carry and shoot) And part of that may be because the endlag on the inhale and the shoot may be too long. I dunno if this'd help at all, but it's something consider.

Pikachu (The Thunder Mouse)
​

Pikachu is nearly perfect. Amazing power moves, great combo moves, great multi hit moves, thunder finisher, amazing recovery, great aerial movement, good set up throws, great speed overall... seriously, why would you want to give him anything? Well honestly I don't. But it seems unfair to leave Pikachu without anything at all. And I came up with just the thing that could make him just slightly better without making him God.

Faster Thunder Bolt (C*)
Or his Neutral B if I'm not being obvious enough. His neutral B is his only bad move, if only because it's slow to come out. This could make more combos viable and increase the variety of his attacks far more. However it shouldn't be done overboard. We should decide properly whether it should be done at all, and if so, should be done in the air, the ground, or both. This is seriously a hard choice to make but I trust the community to make the right choice on this.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously this is just a project I decided to do on my own. It doesn't have to be supported at all, but it'd be great if it could be. Thanks to all the people in the GameShark Code topic who gave me the idea in the first place. I hope to see some form of responses and if not, oh well. Worth a shot.
I'd continue this by myself no problem if I had any clue how to produce the proper codes... the issues I have with the codes are vast and I have little time to dedicate to making them. Testing them I can do, but making them requires more skill than I currently have. I hope this wasn't TOO too long for you guys.
And again, Any of this is subject to change. But I would like some good well reasoned disagreements with as little opinion as possible. I'm trying to avoid nerfs so I hope that won't be too big of an issue.​

I think projects like this are an insult to Nintendo. What's wrong with just playing the game the way it's supposed to be played? Why do people always feel the need to alter, the original creation, rather than just appreciate it for what it is? Please just leave it alone. If you don't like the game, then just play something else.

 

[RPGgrenade]

I stopped reading at decreased hitstun code, best of luck for your mod. I'll probably still try it out.

thanks. But you really should read what it is I said. The whole point is for us to discuss, contrast and check to see if some changes should be altered, remain the same or removed entirely.

 

[RPGgrenade]

I think projects like this are an insult to Nintendo. What's wrong with just playing the game the way it's supposed to be played? Why do people always feel the need to alter, the original creation, rather than just appreciate it for what it is? Please just leave it alone. If you don't like the game, then just play something else.

as stated. If you believe this to be the case be my guest and ignore my claims, but I simply believe this game can be made to be much more fun than it already is without ruining what it already has, due to the fact that the time of its creation didn't have much in the way of testing what it is we currently do with the game. It can be improved upon without hurting it. And quite frankly Nintendo have a tendency for backwards business practices and these days everyone is insulting them a little, and back then they could not have accounted for the current meta. If they had been able to test for it somehow, chances are they'd have made similar changes.
I appreciate your opinion though, and it has been noted as "some people don't like change" for future reference. Also, on a small note "Play it the way it's supposed to be played" is exactly what we're NOT doing here. The whole point here is that we're abusing the system as it is in a way it was never meant to be played. So that part seems to be a little misguided.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I like it, it looks like a fun mod and I'm sure this won't have tournaments for, it'll be just like a fun thing to play kinda like brawl minus or something. Pursue it! Of course people are gonna disagree but they don't understand that it's not like it will take over 64 lmao go ahead and let's see what happens. I'm a strong believer of 64 being perfect an I still like this idea because it will convince more people to join the modding scene

 

[RPGgrenade]

I like it, it looks like a fun mod and I'm sure this won't have tournaments for, it'll be just like a fun thing to play kinda like brawl minus or something. Pursue it! Of course people are gonna disagree but they don't understand that it's not like it will take over 64 lmao go ahead and let's see what happens. I'm a strong believer of 64 being perfect an I still like this idea because it will convince more people to join the modding scene

I'm also of the idea that this version, copying some things from the other games, may just bring people who aren't as familiar with 64 TO 64. So it may help in that sense, as well.

 

[Chubbybarbarian]

Thank you. Do you have any suggestions? And yes I'm prepared for the flaming. Not that big an issue for me.

suggestion- is it possible to add side b's??

 

[RPGgrenade]

suggestion- is it possible to add side b's??

I... have... no idea. But given that these changes can already cause occasional crashes... I wouldn't risk it honestly.

 

[Chubbybarbarian]

I... have... no idea. But given that these changes can already cause occasional crashes... I wouldn't risk it honestly.

ok :D in the melee hack im making, editing luigi missle freezes the game ._.

 

[Jink8]

I like it.

 

[Madao]

Sounds like an interesting project . I'd recommend actually making a rom patch, instead of using gameshark. It makes the process a lot better overall. For instance, since you want to lower short hop, you could tweak each character's individual number instead of tweaking 1 global number.

Also, I'm pretty sure lowering hitstun results in some glitch. I remember the game had some weird effect after changing the histun multiplier.

I advise you to start with the most important changes and work your way up. If you do too many changes, it may become harder to balance. If I were to do a balance patch (which I likely won't), I would start with buffing some of the characters that got nerfed from J to U. For example they made Luigi's horizontal air speed even slower in U version! Imo it seems silly to nerf mid tier and low tier characters.

Also for using gameshark on console, some of the codes probably need an activator code. I really should add them, but I never got around to it.

These people are very toxic and self destructive. They won't even switch to a better online emulator to help themselves or help contribute to the community in producing data, references, documentation or any type of resource to easily be found, sorted, and linked for the world to have access to.

So true. I'm even willing to fix up 2.2k, but if no one cares, then I won't waste my precious time. Most of the problems in 2.2k that I have seen people complained about are easy to fix.

 

[Zantetsu]

*Sorry to hi-jack this thread and throw it off topic*

So true. I'm even willing to fix up 2.2k, but if no one cares, then I won't waste my precious time. Most of the problems in 2.2k that I have seen people complained about are easy to fix.

So I've tried to move people over to Mupen when it first released, and in the recent past. In the past couple months, I felt I had kicked it off somewhat nicely, but there were 2 main issues that prevented this from happening. I'm almost certain that if you are willing to fix up 2.2k, we can make that the new standard. Here were the 2 issues that caused the community to not move forward.

1. Although Mupen would practically NEVER desync, it would cause some people to have a ton of lag spikes. I'm not an expert on these types of things, but my shot-in-the-dark guess was that it had to do with different graphic plugins being used between the 2 people playing. The lag spikes seemed to occur upon hits (when the hit-effect textures would appear) so it made it very difficult to play. Through my personal experience, when an opponent and I would use the same graphics plugin, we would play flawlessly, but if we used different ones, the spikes happened a lot. Not sure if that's the issue, but having everyone use 1 plugin doesn't necessarily work and isn't a solution in my eyes.

2. Knitephox runs Smash FU, the primary server where everybody hosts their games. He, over everybody else, has the power to enforce this change. Kaillera servers have the ability to force a specific emulator upon connecting. However, he refuses to do this unless the emulator supports gameshark codes. I'm quite certain PJ64 2.2 has GS support, no?

It's not so much that the community doesn't WANT a new emulator to use, it's just that nobody will take the lead and switch. Their mentality is "why should I host a game on a superior emulator where I will not find an opponent, when I can just use an emulator I'm familiar/comfortable with and find a game almost instantly." If we can just get a more stable emulator with less DSing, spikes, fullscreen without DS, and maintain GS codes, then Knitephox will have no other reason to switch the server over to the new emulator only, it would solve the issues we were having trying to convert people to Mupen, and everything will be peachy. I understand if you've lost hope like most people have, but if you were to do this, then I would do my best to get this as the new standard once again.

 

[Madao]

1. Although Mupen would practically NEVER desync, it would cause some people to have a ton of lag spikes. I'm not an expert on these types of things, but my shot-in-the-dark guess was that it had to do with different graphic plugins being used between the 2 people playing. The lag spikes seemed to occur upon hits (when the hit-effect textures would appear) so it made it very difficult to play. Through my personal experience, when an opponent and I would use the same graphics plugin, we would play flawlessly, but if we used different ones, the spikes happened a lot. Not sure if that's the issue, but having everyone use 1 plugin doesn't necessarily work and isn't a solution in my eyes.

I'm not sure tbh. Sounds like it might be caused by performance. Good news is that the latest version of Project64 has better performance in SSB than any other emulator I know of. If the problem is the video plugin, I'm not sure what can be done. I've constantly recommended Jabo's D3D8 1.7.0.56 for anyone who feels that Glide64's performance is too slow, but no one seems to use it. They would rather use Jabo 1.6.1 which is completely inferior in numerous ways. Honestly, even Rice Video is better than Jabo 1.6.1. So ya, all I can say is try testing a few different video plugins and use a fast emulator.

2. Knitephox runs Smash FU, the primary server where everybody hosts their games. He, over everybody else, has the power to enforce this change. Kaillera servers have the ability to force a specific emulator upon connecting. However, he refuses to do this unless the emulator supports gameshark codes. I'm quite certain PJ64 2.2 has GS support, no?

If we can just get a more stable emulator with less DSing, spikes, fullscreen without DS, and maintain GS codes, then Knitephox will have no other reason to switch the server over to the new emulator only, it would solve the issues we were having trying to convert people to Mupen, and everything will be peachy.

Project64 2.2k doesn't DS, fullscreen works (iirc), has GS codes, etc. Literally the 2 complaints I've heard so far, are that the "fps isn't stable" (which is simply fixed by turning off sync audio...) and BSOD on windows 10 (which has been fixed on latest version of Project64). So all someone has to do is backport the kaillera code into the latest version. Only problem I'm aware of with the newest Project64 is that the UI is less stable.

I understand if you've lost hope like most people have, but if you were to do this, then I would do my best to get this as the new standard once again.

I have less time and motivation these days. If people didn't nitpick less important things, I'd be more inclined to go out of my way to help out. Sure having a buggy UI is not good, but imo an emulator that's faster, more accurate, less desync, etc, makes up for it. If the community is willing to deal with the UI bugs, in favor of improving many other things, then I can go ahead and port the code. Otherwise, you'll just have to hope they fix the UI bugs in PJ64 soon (very unlikely). When I say buggy UI, I just mean stuff like switching games (while playing a game), and that sometimes End Emulation is bugged. So if you never switch games or anything, you won't have a problem.

 

[Zantetsu]

Project64 2.2k doesn't DS, fullscreen works (iirc), has GS codes, etc. Literally the 2 complaints I've heard so far, are that the "fps isn't stable" (which is simply fixed by turning off sync audio...) and BSOD on windows 10 (which has been fixed on latest version of Project64). So all someone has to do is backport the kaillera code into the latest version. Only problem I'm aware of with the newest Project64 is that the UI is less stable.

I have less time and motivation these days. If people didn't nitpick less important things, I'd be more inclined to go out of my way to help out. Sure having a buggy UI is not good, but imo an emulator that's faster, more accurate, less desync, etc, makes up for it. If the community is willing to deal with the UI bugs, in favor of improving many other things, then I can go ahead and port the code. Otherwise, you'll just have to hope they fix the UI bugs in PJ64 soon (very unlikely). When I say buggy UI, I just mean stuff like switching games (while playing a game), and that sometimes End Emulation is bugged. So if you never switch games or anything, you won't have a problem.

So I'm not too sure if you're saying that you are willing to do this or not, but if you wouldn't mind (when/if you have the time), I'm sure the community wouldn't nitpick you about the UI. Current PJ64k seems to have the similar problems as PJ64 2.2k that you mentioned (can crash upon booting/closing/switching games). It's so bad that people have gone out of their way to create .bat and .exe files that specifically force close PJ64k and reopen it. So yeah, I highly doubt the community would care about a non-perfect UI, especially if we get all the great trade offs of less desync, better accuracy, full screen without ds, etc.. It doesn't sound like we would be trading anything away and would only be receiving benefits from this, unlike Mupen which sacrificed GS codes.

 

[RPGgrenade]

Sounds like an interesting project . I'd recommend actually making a rom patch, instead of using gameshark. It makes the process a lot better overall. For instance, since you want to lower short hop, you could tweak each character's individual number instead of tweaking 1 global number.

Also, I'm pretty sure lowering hitstun results in some glitch. I remember the game had some weird effect after changing the histun multiplier.

I advise you to start with the most important changes and work your way up. If you do too many changes, it may become harder to balance. If I were to do a balance patch (which I likely won't), I would start with buffing some of the characters that got nerfed from J to U. For example they made Luigi's horizontal air speed even slower in U version! Imo it seems silly to nerf mid tier and low tier characters.

Also for using gameshark on console, some of the codes probably need an activator code. I really should add them, but I never got around to it.

So true. I'm even willing to fix up 2.2k, but if no one cares, then I won't waste my precious time. Most of the problems in 2.2k that I have seen people complained about are easy to fix.

My only issue is I have no clue how to make a rom patch. If I did I'd already be doing that specifically. Also I did plan on doing some of those J to U reversal changes as well. I'm just a newbie programmer with game design experience, so my abilities at actually hacking the game aren't that great. I'd appreciate any advice on how to make said rom patch though.

 

[Capos]

So true. I'm even willing to fix up 2.2k, but if no one cares, then I won't waste my precious time. Most of the problems in 2.2k that I have seen people complained about are easy to fix.

To piggy back on what Zantetsu said, I don't think the problem is lack of interest, it's that you need to use the same emulator as your opponent, and all the opponents aren't using it, so it's hard get people to switch. Knite has said he will enforce the switch if the last issues are fixed. Count me as one who would welcome an update.

Project64 2.2k doesn't DS, fullscreen works (iirc), has GS codes, etc. Literally the 2 complaints I've heard so far, are that the "fps isn't stable" (which is simply fixed by turning off sync audio...) and BSOD on windows 10 (which has been fixed on latest version of Project64). So all someone has to do is backport the kaillera code into the latest version.

As someone who's in the windows 10 boat, it's great that the fix is available and all someone needs to do is backport kaillera, but that hasn't happened yet. So until someone with the knowledge to do it takes that final step, 2.2 is literally unusable for me.

 

[Madao]

So I'm not too sure if you're saying that you are willing to do this or not, but if you wouldn't mind (when/if you have the time), I'm sure the community wouldn't nitpick you about the UI. Current PJ64k seems to have the similar problems as PJ64 2.2k that you mentioned (can crash upon booting/closing/switching games). It's so bad that people have gone out of their way to create .bat and .exe files that specifically force close PJ64k and reopen it. So yeah, I highly doubt the community would care about a non-perfect UI, especially if we get all the great trade offs of less desync, better accuracy, full screen without ds, etc.. It doesn't sound like we would be trading anything away and would only be receiving benefits from this, unlike Mupen which sacrificed GS codes.

Whether I decide to do it depends on a few things. Since it appears that nitpicking likely won't be an issue, I don't have to worry about that. Obstacle #1 is that I'm going to be busy for a few weeks. It's possibile that by the time I'm free, I could change my mind and not be in the mood to port the code. It also depends on whether Knitephox is willing to force that emulator. Good news is that zilmar seems interested in fixing the UI issues. So they may even be fixed by the time I'm not swamped with tasks.

My only issue is I have no clue how to make a rom patch. If I did I'd already be doing that specifically. Also I did plan on doing some of those J to U reversal changes as well. I'm just a newbie programmer with game design experience, so my abilities at actually hacking the game aren't that great. I'd appreciate any advice on how to make said rom patch though.

Patching can be a hassle at first, but it's worth it in the long run. You'll be able to do a lot more. The main thing you have to do is open the rom in hex editor and look for the code to edit. Some parts are compressed (like character physics and hitbox data), so for those, you'll need to decompress the rom and edit the individual files, then recompress it. For finding where data is, you can do a hex search. What I do is open up Nemu and look at the memory editor to copy paste the hex data for searching. If you need to hex search multiple files simultaneously, you'll need to use a premium hex editor.

Making basic changes, using already discovered knowledge is simple .

To piggy back on what Zantetsu said, I don't think the problem is lack of interest, it's that you need to use the same emulator as your opponent, and all the opponents aren't using it, so it's hard get people to switch. Knite has said he will enforce the switch if the last issues are fixed. Count me as one who would welcome an update.

As someone who's in the windows 10 boat, it's great that the fix is available and all someone needs to do is backport kaillera, but that hasn't happened yet. So until someone with the knowledge to do it takes that final step, 2.2 is literally unusable for me.

But even if an emulator is not popular you can still play it with reasonable friends. I refuse to use pj64 and even mupen64k.

I understand the fact that 2.2k has BSOD, but that doesn't appear to be the main reason people aren't using it. More people seem to have complained about the fps issue which is just an option that you can turn off. In its current state, I would not use it myself, but it's better than both mupen64k and pj64 1.4k., for those who don't have win 10 (which i suspect is the case for the majority). For fixing BSOD, all you literally have to do is copy a small amount of code, iirc. So anyone can do it.