Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Icedragonadam]

By the way, if any of you are going to E3 this year let us know if you find the illusive Chunky Kong!

 

[AadmM]

But that wasn't what your original post said. You asked how does popularity and reception have any bearing in Smash, meaning you don't see why those factors are important. Then when I responded to you, you backpedaled and said "fan demand matters but it isn't everything!" Arguing that not everyone gets added due to the fans is like asking me if water is wet. In other word, that point was moot.

But about a lack of popularity/awareness being a non-factor, I can tell you that is untrue. Sakurai is never going to include a character everyone hates just because he wants them in.

I never backed down from the point I was trying to make though, which like I said, is that lack of popularity doesn't take anything away from a character's shot at inclusion. When you read past my first (admittedly loosely worded) sentence, you see that everything I've said since agrees with this.

Which, again, you say Sakurai doesn't include characters just because he wants them in, yet, he gave us the Ice Climbers. Not a character that was well known or desired by anyone--at least not in any significant number with regards to what one would consider "worthy" in Smash terms.

And like I said in my first post, he chose to use Samus' Other M design and give us a stage based on the game, probably one of the most universally panned experiences among fans in the series' history and one Metroid fans would much sooner forget. They could've just as easily stuck with her Super Metroid inspired look and skipped on the Pyrosphere altogether, but they don't care what people hate, clearly.

If they have the material, and feel like using it, they will. What matters most is timing and available resources during development. And yes, what Sakurai/the man in charge wants.

 

[JohnnyEGG]

Zelda's d-tilt is an alright move, but not enough to make up for her overall lackluster moveset.

There are things they could do to make her current moves better. Nair actually can combo into killmoves, but its hitbox makes it inconsistent enough to be too risky. Even a small change for consistency could really help.

That said, if Link's getting a redesign, Zelda could potentially get one too. It seems like as good a time as any to mix up her moveset with new material.

Possibly a special where she force-feeds you a frog?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I never backed down from the point I was trying to make though, which like I said, is that lack of popularity doesn't take anything away from a character's shot at inclusion. When you read past my first (admittedly loosely worded) sentence, you see that everything I've said since agrees with this.

Which, again, you say Sakurai doesn't include characters just because he wants them in, yet, he gave us the Ice Climbers. Not a character that was well known or desired by anyone--at least not in any significant number with regards to what one would consider "worthy" in Smash terms.

And like I said in my first post, he chose to use Samus' Other M design and give us a stage based on the game, probably one of the most universally panned experiences among fans in the series' history and one Metroid fans would much sooner forget. They could've just as easily stuck with her Super Metroid inspired look and skipped on the Pyrosphere altogether, but they don't care what people hate, clearly.

If they have the material, and feel like using it, they will. What matters most is timing and available resources during development. And yes, what Sakurai/the man in charge wants.

Well on this note, your argument about Other M had to do entirely with how well received something was by fans not mattering. You brought this up in your discussion with me related to an ARMS character being on the base roster. The point I presented you with didn't even have to do with popularity, it had to do with the fact that ARMS may have come around far too late in Smash development to make the base roster. And then the point associated with that which caused you to bring up popularity was my point that ARMS literally did not exist to anyone outside of Nintendo until after the roster was likely decided. You brought points that, in the end, were not really even related to the discussion. So either you misinterpreted my points, or you're forcing in some reason because you really want an ARMS character on the base roster and want to look past reason.

And for the record, I never said an ARMS character was impossible, I just said they may have come along too late to make the base roster and could be added as DLC later.

Zelda's d-tilt is an alright move, but not enough to make up for her overall lackluster moveset.

That was not the point of the post, the point of that post was just pointing out that Zelda's tilts were her only good quality. The post with the video was showing the guy I replied to that dtilt had more follow-up options than they had suggested.

 

[Hinata]

By the way, if any of you are going to E3 this year let us know if you find the illusive Chunky Kong!

Ah, that old rumor. Been a long time since I heard that one.

That, and the rumor that Zero Suit Samus was able to hover in the air during the 2014 Invitational build.

 

[AadmM]

Well on this note, your argument about Other M had to do entirely with how well received something was by fans not mattering. You brought this up in your discussion with me related to an ARMS character being on the base roster. The point I presented you with didn't even have to do with popularity, it had to do with the fact that ARMS may have come around far too late in Smash development to make the base roster. And then the point associated with that which caused you to bring up popularity was my point that ARMS literally did not exist to anyone outside of Nintendo until after the roster was likely decided. You brought points that, in the end, were not really even related to the discussion. So either you misinterpreted my points, or you're forcing in some reason because you really want an ARMS character on the base roster and want to look past reason.

And I fully acknowledge this, which is why I said before that popularity aside, I get the argument of timing, which I just reiterated above is the one of the most important factors for any brand-new character's inclusion. It has nothing to do with being unreasonable. If they had the proper assets for an ARMS character at the time, any time, within development of the roster, they can make it happen. I do not believe popularity, awareness, or even fan demand to be an issue for them, hence the Ice Climbers, which no one has brought up a counterargument for as of yet.

And to be clear, I'm not even going be miffed if we don't get an ARMS character. Would be awesome to have someone from the game, definitely. But it's not gonna kill my hype if it doesn't happen.

That would take a lot.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Ah, that old rumor. Been a long time since I heard that one.

That, and the rumor that Zero Suit Samus was able to hover in the air during the 2014 Invitational build.

If ZSS could do that then that'd be broken.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

And I fully acknowledge this, which is why I said before that popularity aside, I get the argument of timing, which I just reiterated above is the one of the most important factors for any brand-new character's inclusion. It has nothing to do with being unreasonable. If they had the proper assets for an ARMS character at the time, any time, within development of the roster, they can make it happen. I do not believe popularity, awareness, or even fan demand to be an issue for them, hence the Ice Climbers, which no one has brought up a counterargument for as of yet.

And to be clear, I'm not even going be miffed if we don't get an ARMS character. Would be awesome to have someone from the game, definitely. But it's not gonna kill my hype if it doesn't happen.

That would take a lot.

I don't think Ice Climbers count as a counterargument because, even though their game wasn't very good, their game had existed for 15 years already and they were a random classic character that Sakurai had a good idea for. Still different than the ARMS situation

 

[Deleted member]

Back after playing a ton of Fire Emblem Heroes.
Speaking of Fire Emblem Heroes, I really hope the FE characters get their look from FEH. I really like the look of them in FEH much better than any other game to be honest. They look more anime in FEH but more... "clean".
Thoughts?

 

[mario123007]

Predictions huh? My for sure guesses:

-Takamaru
-Ice Climbers
-Rex and Pyra
-2nd Namco Rep

Oh yeah, Takamaru, completely forgot about that guy.
He might just be the next Little Mac or Pit. Since he was an assistant trophy. Hope can be be a playable this time.

If I remember correctly, Sakurai did consider Takamaru to be in Smash 4 right?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Back after playing a ton of Fire Emblem Heroes.
Speaking of Fire Emblem Heroes, I really hope the FE characters get their look from FEH. I really like the look of them in FEH much better than any other game to be honest. They look more anime in FEH but more... "clean".
Thoughts?

Many of the characters in the game are drawn by community artists rather than official Nintendo artists, so I find it doubtful. But the way the characters that are in Smash appear, I don't see too large of a difference other than Marth having more of his classic look in Heroes, and Ike is his younger, thinner self, which was in Brawl.

 

[Louie G.]

Guys we need to talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0weAj9PWU8

I forget how to embed I'm just getting back into this

 

[Onua]

I kinda hope this game goes nuts with clones.
Idk why but the idea of clones is just neat to me.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Guys we need to talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0weAj9PWU8

I forget how to embed I'm just getting back into this

Actually makes me want Marx. I think Bandana Dee is the more widely accepted choice, as he's sort of turned into one of the main 4 Kirby characters, which is even evidenced in Star Allies, but Marx's Star Allies appearance sure looks like a good time.

 

[Louie G.]

Actually makes me want Marx. I think Bandana Dee is the more widely accepted choice, as he's sort of turned into one of the main 4 Kirby characters, which is even evidenced in Star Allies, but Marx's Star Allies appearance sure looks like a good time.

Yeah I gotta agree, but man this makes me wish Marx had a fighting shot. His whole moveset is mapped out for him here, he would be awesome and super unique.

Honestly there is a chance that Sakurai wants to add a new Kirby character and decides to pull from his own games (as he has consistently done in the past)... That's Marx's best shot at being included. Still do think Bandana Dee has the best shot, but there are so many great Kirby characters that I wish would have an opportunity.

 

[StrangeMann]

I actually think the Star Allies Marx is an excellent rendition of this character, and he certainly has the design qualities similar to kirby, ddd, and meta knight of the earlier kirby chars with simple art styles. Lets be honest with ourselves: He would never get in before Bandana Waddle Dee though.

 

[Deleted member]

Heard about the invitational looking forward to it. Rogersoffbase speculating again? Cool I guess some awesome indie characters could get in. Looking forward to more news.

 

[Onua]

Honestly outside of Fossil Fighter and Medusa there really isnt anyone I absolutely want for the next game.
Just excited to see what the new game is like and who is put in.

I forgot how fun the speculation phase was. This has been a lot of fun.

 

[Louie G.]

I actually think the Star Allies Marx is an excellent rendition of this character, and he certainly has the design qualities similar to kirby, ddd, and meta knight of the earlier kirby chars with simple art styles. Lets be honest with ourselves: He would never get in before Bandana Waddle Dee though.

I will be honest, given Sakurai's history with the treatment of Kirby in the past I think Bandana Dee's chances are a bit overstated, but I still think he has a very good shot and definitely the best of any other Kirby character. But I wouldn't count out a bit of an "out there" choice either just because Sakurai likes surprises and maybe he wants to do something from his Kirby games again like he always has.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I actually think the Star Allies Marx is an excellent rendition of this character, and he certainly has the design qualities similar to kirby, ddd, and meta knight of the earlier kirby chars with simple art styles. Lets be honest with ourselves: He would never get in before Bandana Waddle Dee though.

Well the concern with Bandana Dee is if Sakurai still sees him falling into the generic character of an in game race thing, just like Toad was stuck in. Bandana Dee is a step in the right direction, but we have to wonder if Sakurai recognizes him as his own established character away from the rest of the Waddle Dees. To my knowledge, Bandana Dee hasn't been a plot-significant character yet, but just a character you could play that is reoccurs often. So we'll have to wait and see Sakurai's perception of Bandana Dee. I think Dee should get in the game, and I don't think Dee missing Sakurai's mark means the door is open for a different Kirby character unfortunately. So I'm not trying to say Dee shouldn't get in so a different character like Magolor or Marx could get in, but we need to stay aware of Sakurai's feelings towards generic race characters and wonder if Bandana Dee has set himself far apart enough.

 

[N3ON]

Well the concern with Bandana Dee is if Sakurai still sees him falling into the generic character of an in game race thing, just like Toad was stuck in. Bandana Dee is a step in the right direction, but we have to wonder if Sakurai recognizes him as his own established character away from the rest of the Waddle Dees. To my knowledge, Bandana Dee hasn't been a plot-significant character yet, but just a character you could play that is reoccurs often. So we'll have to wait and see Sakurai's perception of Bandana Dee. I think Dee should get in the game, and I don't think Dee missing Sakurai's mark means the door is open for a different Kirby character unfortunately. So I'm not trying to say Dee shouldn't get in so a different character like Magolor or Marx could get in, but we need to stay aware of Sakurai's feelings towards generic race characters and wonder if Bandana Dee has set himself far apart enough.

I don't think it's that complicated. I just don't think Sakurai is lending much credence to anything that happened without him.

The whole generic thing doesn't hold much weight anyway. First off, it's not true, and second, that didn't stop Yoshi or the Pokemon. Or the Inklings. Toad is almost certainly being excluded for different reasoning.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Marx would have the best shot if he was pulling only from his games.

But if we are talking about Kirby villian, then I feel that would most likely go to Magolor. Since him and his theme C-R-O-W-N-E-D just keep getting put into kirby games over and over. I believe he will eventually become a dream friend in Star allies as well.

And Magolor has been acknowledge as a trophy before. So Sakurai is aware of him.

If he really thinks of Bandana Dee as just a generic enemy then Magolor is naturally the next best choice.

As for what I think personally. I would be kinda miffed if it was Marx. Don't get me wrong, I think Marx is fantastic. I just really want to see Sakurai start to show more content from not his kirby games though. While Bandana Dee is my most wanted newcomer and I would be disappointed if he didn't get in. I would still be happy with Magolor since he still has a lot of things of the newer kirby games in him. And that would most likely mean C-R-O-W-N-E-D would be in the game.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think it's that complicated. I just don't think Sakurai is lending much credence to anything that happened without him.

The whole generic thing doesn't hold much weight anyway. First off, it's not true, and second, that didn't stop Yoshi or the Pokemon. Or the Inklings. Toad is almost certainly being excluded for different reasoning.

Yeah that's a good point, biggest problem for Bandana Dee is absolutely Sakurai's attitude toward Kirby which I'm just praying he's gotten more lenient with. So much cool stuff to pull from RTDL onward.

s for what I think personally. I would be kinda miffed if it was Marx. Don't get me wrong, I think Marx is fantastic. I just really want to see Sakurai start to show more content from his non-kirby games though.

I totally get this. I would agree if I wasn't so in love with the idea of Marx in Smash.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I don't think it's that complicated. I just don't think Sakurai is lending much credence to anything that happened without him.

The whole generic thing doesn't hold much weight anyway. First off, it's not true, and second, that didn't stop Yoshi or the Pokemon. Or the Inklings. Toad is almost certainly being excluded for different reasoning.

Yeah I just went and looked for a source on the generic race thing and couldn't find anything. Guess I was misinformed in the past. However as for Inklings and Yoshi, they've at least been the main characters of their games. Toad hadn't until Captain Toad, and there's no Waddle Dee game I'm aware of. Regardless, you're right, Sakurai never said anything against generic race characters, that I can find at least.

 

[Luminario]

They need to start bringing Marx back in the Kirby series regularly anyway. He's a cute character and his design is fantastic, especially the rainbow wings.

 

[mario123007]

This is my current prediction roster. I admit Skull Kid isn't likely but I think it's overall good

I might replace excitebiker to Takamaru because I don't really see how excite biker can fight...

And yep, as for XC2 character, it's just Rex, no Rex & Pyra or Rex & Mythra... or Rex, Pyra, and Mythra as individual character.... Just Rex the only character for the slot but he will have Blades though (Pyra... and other rare Blades) for different movesets.

Also I think core crystals can be a new item as well which is more OP than Pokeball and assist trophy, unlike those though, once you got it and resonate a Blade you can use the Blade's weapon until you get OKed or release it.
Just like in the game you mostly get common blades which don't have powerful weapons, but chances are you might get rare Blades that are more powerful.

And much like Riki... Tora and Poppi can just be an assist trophy...lol.

 

[NintenRob]

Pyra is meant to be there

 

[StrangeMann]

Marx would have the best shot if he was pulling only from his games.

But if we are talking about Kirby villian, then I feel that would most likely go to Magolor. Since him and his theme C-R-O-W-N-E-D just keep getting put into kirby games over and over. I believe he will eventually become a dream friend in Star allies as well.

And Magolor has been acknowledge as a trophy before. So Sakurai is aware of him.

If he really thinks of Bandana Dee as just a generic enemy then Magolor is naturally the next best choice.

As for what I think personally. I would be kinda miffed if it was Marx. Don't get me wrong, I think Marx is fantastic. I just really want to see Sakurai start to show more content from not his kirby games though. While Bandana Dee is my most wanted newcomer and I would be disappointed if he didn't get in. I would still be happy with Magolor since he still has a lot of things of the newer kirby games in him. And that would most likely mean C-R-O-W-N-E-D would be in the game.

I would note that Marx as a character is older than Magolor and originates in Kirby Super Star, which was a title produced by Sakurai. I still think Marx is far less likely than the Bandana Waddle Dee (which also first appeared in Kirby Super Star and has far more recurring roles), but given Marx has appeared in more titles (Kirby Super Star, Super Star Ultra, and Kirby Star Allies) I would say he's more likely than Magolor.

 

[N3ON]

I think they're going in a rough order with the Star Allies DLC characters. The SNES and GB games first, then probably N64 and GBA/DS, then probably Wii and 3DS. I imagine Magolor will get there eventually, he seems popular enough.

 

[Hinata]

I think they're going in a rough order with the Star Allies DLC characters. The SNES and GB games first, then probably N64 and GBA/DS, then probably Wii and 3DS. I imagine Magolor will get there eventually, he seems popular enough.

Not only that, there was already data for Magolor as a Dream Friend in the game's code, they just didn't end up using it.

At least, not yet. *dramatic music*

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I would note that Marx as a character is older than Magolor and originates in Kirby Super Star, which was a title produced by Sakurai. I still think Marx is far less likely than the Bandana Waddle Dee (which also first appeared in Kirby Super Star and has far more recurring roles), but given Marx has appeared in more titles (Kirby Super Star, Super Star Ultra, and Kirby Star Allies) I would say he's more likely than Magolor.

I don't really think age matters for getting into smash.

As for appearing in more titles. Thats a complicated answer. Though first off you are wrong about that list techically.

I'm only counting an actual physical apparence not just a reference to them like stone:

Marx: Kirby superstar/ultra, Mass Attack, Kirby Triple Deluxe, and Kirby Star Allies
Magolor: Kirby Return To Dreamland, Kirby Dream Collection (yes it counts), Kirby Triple Deluxe, Dedede Drum Dash Deluxe, and Kirby Team Clash Deluxe

Though I will admit, out of all magolor's appearence only 3 of them were important. Being RTD, Dream Collection, and Team Clash Deluxe.

So I still think Magolor would be considered over Marx even based on that.

 

[Inawordyes]

I read somewhere on here earlier (might have been in here, may have been the Social thread) someone bringing up the possibility of there potentially being a Smash demo coming after the Invitational.

How well do you think they'd scrub the demo to avoid unintentional data leaks, considering how almost the entire base game of Kirby Star Allies was leaked through the demo? How well was the SM4SH 3DS demo scrubbed?

 

[Hinata]

I read somewhere on here earlier (might have been in here, may have been the Social thread) someone bringing up the possibility of there potentially being a Smash demo coming after the Invitational.

How well do you think they'd scrub the demo to avoid unintentional data leaks, considering how almost the entire base game of Kirby Star Allies was leaked through the demo? How well was the SM4SH 3DS demo scrubbed?

I don't think anyone got anything special out of scrubbing the Smash 3DS demo. I think the only reason we knew the full roster at the time is because the ESRB leak came out around the same time.

 

[NintenRob]

I read somewhere on here earlier (might have been in here, may have been the Social thread) someone bringing up the possibility of there potentially being a Smash demo coming after the Invitational.

How well do you think they'd scrub the demo to avoid unintentional data leaks, considering how almost the entire base game of Kirby Star Allies was leaked through the demo? How well was the SM4SH 3DS demo scrubbed?

By the time we got a Smash 3DS demo, we already knew everything in the game, I think the main thing we found out were voice clips meant for the Wii U game, but that might for have been when the game was released.

 

[Radical Bones]

That Marx trailer looks awesome.

I love Marx. I would be very happy to see him in Smash, especially moving around on his ball.

 

[StrangeMann]

I don't really think age matters for getting into smash.

As for appearing in more titles. Thats a complicated answer. Though first off you are wrong about that list techically.

I'm only counting an actual physical apparence not just a reference to them like stone:

Marx: Kirby superstar/ultra, Mass Attack, Kirby Triple Deluxe, and Kirby Star Allies
Magolor: Kirby Return To Dreamland, Kirby Dream Collection (yes it counts), Kirby Triple Deluxe, Dedede Drum Dash Deluxe, and Kirby Team Clash Deluxe

Though I will admit, out of all magolor's appearence only 3 of them were important. Being RTD, Dream Collection, and Team Clash Deluxe.

So I still think Magolor would be considered over Marx even based on that.

I personally disagree on the concept based around sakurai's own history with the marx character as it's creator, but who knows? Magolor could be more likely I guess, but either way It's (in my opinion) extremely unlikely either would get into smash before Bandana Waddle Dee at this point in time.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I actually think the Star Allies Marx is an excellent rendition of this character, and he certainly has the design qualities similar to kirby, ddd, and meta knight of the earlier kirby chars with simple art styles. Lets be honest with ourselves: He would never get in before Bandana Waddle Dee though.

Honestly, I’d rather have Marx than Dee. One is crazy jester/bat villain, and the other is a guy with a spear. Wouldn’t complain about either of them, but Marx gets my vote

 

[Hinata]

Here's a question for y'all. Do you think they'll do mini-trailers for returning third parties again, like what they did for Sonic in Smash 4?

 

[N3ON]

They didn't scrub the DLC update data well enough, that's how we learned of Roy and Ryu. I would think they'd do a more thorough job this time if for no other reason than that.

That said, unless Smash is arriving relatively shortly after E3, which I doubt, I'm not expecting any demo until later on in the year. If at all. I think the 3DS demo only arrived a few weeks before release... if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[Danpal65]

They didn't scrub the DLC update data well enough, that's how we learned of Roy and Ryu. I would think they'd do a more thorough job this time if for no other reason than that.

That said, unless Smash is arriving relatively shortly after E3, which I doubt, I'm not expecting any demo until later on in the year. If at all. I think the 3DS demo only arrived a few weeks before release... if I'm remembering correctly.

Honestly I doubt we will get a demo for this game. The 3DS one made sense as a lot of games on that console get demos. For the Switch though, we never saw one for Mario or Zelda (well Zelda was a launch title so ), but why bother spending development time on creating and scrubbing a demo? It's Smash. It sells itself.