Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2008
- Messages
- 757
- Location
- Orange County, CA
- NNID
- Machiavelli.CF
- 3DS FC
- 3222-5675-4966
Hello! This is SoCal's resident Ivysaur player, Machiavelli.
In an effort to better understand Ivysaur's place in Project M, we should aim to come to a general consensus on her match-up spread. Below, I've placed characters into 3 broad categories. I figured we'd start from here and build on it, adding MU ratios/explainations/and more discussion progresses.
If you also are experiencing difficulties with a match-up, this is also the place to ask for the insight of other players.
tl;dr version:
It's super effective!(people who Ivy beats)
Bowser
King Dedede
-One of Dedede's most apparent character weaknesses is his unimpressive neutral game. Because of this, the tools that Ivy has here are much more useful. Keeping Dedede out is fairly easy, and this should be put on blast in the match-up. At best, your opponent should have to sift through an unreasonable ocean of defenses. Forehead height razor leafs will gain you a lot of mileage alone. A Dedede will quickly learn to fear vine whip and Ivy players should be keen to learn how this move can be used to restrict their opponent's gameplay. For example, on stages like Battlefield and Dreamland 64, D3 players have a powerful urge to jump from the ledge due to the fact that any aerial they preform will be auto ledge-cancelled. You should be able to snag a few vine whips from this habit. King Dedede also has the gift of arguably the deadliest off-stage game in Project M, so you should be careful, unpredictable, and very safe when making your way back on stage. Be wary of using your dair recklessly, as it is a great move for Dededes to try and strike you out of.
DK
Game & Watch
Ganon
Ice Climbers
-Ivysaur seems to have a meaty selection of moves that are good at seperating the ICs. There's a noticeable shortage of IC players in the game right now, so it's hard to say how they fare against most characters, but I'm inclined to think Ivysaur has the necessary tools to put them down.
Puff
Olimar
Peach
-While I don't imagine this matchup is too heavily in Ivysaur's favor, I do think that Peach lacks many good responses to an Ivysaur that throws out safe (full hop) fairs and Bairs. For example, Peach's movement can be fairly sluggish and she seems to struggle with moves like fullhop fair. I also feel Peach's signature float game is under-effective against Ivysaur, compared to the rest of the cast. The tricky part about this pairing is that both characters tend to play very safe and like to have good breathing room between eachother, making this a likely slow and campy fight.
Roy
Yoshi
Zelda
Close to even
Charizard
Ike
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
MetaKnight
Mewtwo
Ness
Pikachu
ROB
Samus
Snake
Squirtle
-Many of Ivy's common moves are multi-hits, and they lose a lot of utility against Squirtle. You will have to partition a certain amount of your concentration in the early game to always being pepared for an incoming armored attack. Squirt's armor strength is determined by how far he would have been sent. Your Dair and dash attack can break his shell armor at early percents. Before you know it, a good chunk of damage has been dealt and his armor will be virtually non-existent, and your moves will regain their common roles back. What sets the Squirtle vs Ivy experience apart from other characters is largely Squirtle's mobility. There's an interesting side to side dance in the match-up's movement style you will learn as you acclimate to his lunges and dives.
Toon Link
-I find that most people's initial suspicion is that Toon Link wins because Ivysaur has been known to struggle with "spammy" characters, but I feel Toon Link's projectile game is very managable. If you stay airborne, most of Tink's projectiles will float right under you, and you can easily punish overzealous spammers. Ivysaur's range advantage on Toon Link is what I think makes this matchup not so bad. You should be mindful of your spacing and try to be close enough to Tink that you can hit him, but far enough to where his sword can't reach you. When it comes to offstage and gimping games, Toon Link is solidly equipped to defend himself while recovering (especially when close to the edge) so it seems the best way to go about hunting him offstage is to be brave, leap with a bair, and try to hit him hard while he is using his far-offstage AGT bomb jumps. On the other side of the coin, Toon Links like to edge-guard Ivysaur often by staying close to the stage and pelt Ivysaur with a volley of projectiles. Be careful to avoid things like bombs which will pop you up and lead into a dangerous fair.
Wario
Wolf
ZSS
It's not very effective...(Switch out)
Diddy
Falco
-Falco is a difficult match-up for Ivy for much the same reasons Fox is. He is thought by most, however, to be a bit easier to handle. The most noticeable things that separate Falco from Fox is his neutral, kill, and recovery game. Fox undoubtedly has an easier time landing finishing blows on Ivysaur, but Ivy also has an easier time finishing off Falco. From my experiences in this match-up, I found that any time I managed to get a razor leaf in play, good things happened for me, be it a moment of peace to better position myself, or a hiccup in Falco's momentum to capitalize on. Make the most out of these openings and opt to end combos early just to get him offstage and collect a free gimp.
Falcon
Fox
-This is a match-up in which both characters have potential to ravage the other. However, as long as fox's execution is on point, he should be at a significant advantage. As an Ivysaur, your chances of beating a Fox hinge mostly on how competent of a combo game you have developed, as you have the potential to 0-death fox off of nearly any hit (and especially grab) you can land. The main strengths that hold Fox over Ivysaur is his potential to pressure and land upward kills on Ivysaur. If you can manage staying safe despite his mobility, you should be able to land enough hits to cheese a victory out of the jaws of adversity .
Kirby
-Solar Beam assumes sunny day is out when Kirby swallows Ivysaur, so DO NOT let it happen. While an Ivysaur may get two solar beams in a match, at best, Kirby can get one every life if he manages to swallow you each time. Besides inhale, Kirby's dash attack has been catching many players off guard in 3.0+ so keep in mind that Ivysaur's dash attack is fast and will beat it out at any time. One particularly frustrating detail of the match-up is that Kirby has a nearly guaranteed up-smash from dthrow at many percents. Its very important that you land a vertical kill early with vine-whip or uair and stay out of Kirby's close range.
Link
Lucario
-In this match-up, it does not seem that the best defense is a good offence. Instead, you should become a fortress and wall him out with titls, bairs, fairs, and whatever else is appropriate. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf so, straight off the bat, you should not expect to out-camp him with it. You may have to put a lot of effort into remembering that you can't shield and be safe Lucario. Shielding only delays him with his inevitable grab, so you should try to escape shielding situations as quickly as you can manage. For every lengthy combo you manage, Lucario can sneeze equal damage back at you much quicker.
Marth
-Your range would be impressive in any other galaxy, but not Marth's. His attacks generally reach just as long but are twice as fast, and sometimes hit twice as hard. This one of Ivy's classic difficult matchups. It's very important to respect his grab range. Keep him at bay by walling the best you can, and take FULL advantage of any opening that comes by. Despite all his sword's benefits, you still have an edge on him when it comes to killing him, as you're more than equipped to sting like a bee offstage. If you are familiar with Marth's recovery game you should be able to secure edge-guards without much trouble. On the other side of the fence, you must be efficient and creative at the ledge to avoid being cornered and stuck, grabbing a ledge while Marth patiently awaits your response.
Pit
Sheik
-This is probably one of Ivysaur's most difficult counters, as she seems to have all the tools necessary to cut away at Ivy's options. Needles are a key part of this match-up and do wonders against Ivysaur. Alone, they are able to out-camp Ivysaur, as it takes only one needle to cancel a razor leaf, and it is not difficult to fire more than one at a time. In all of their uses, needles will force a reaction out of Ivysaur, so be safe in whatever response you take. Ivysaur is very susceptible to Sheik's shield pressure, chain-grabs, and crouch-cancel game, so you should research them and learn methods of escaping each. Sheik is also more than equipped to edge-guard you. Take note of what moves Sheik uses to keep you from returning to stage and attempt to change up your timing with dairs, and your air attack defenses. Another small note to add is that Sheik has the ability to interrupt Ivysaur's up-B recovery with aerial needles. It is unlikely to kill you as long as you recover below a 45 degree angle, so you are shielded by the stage.
Sonic
In an effort to better understand Ivysaur's place in Project M, we should aim to come to a general consensus on her match-up spread. Below, I've placed characters into 3 broad categories. I figured we'd start from here and build on it, adding MU ratios/explainations/and more discussion progresses.
If you also are experiencing difficulties with a match-up, this is also the place to ask for the insight of other players.
tl;dr version:
It's super effective!(people who Ivy beats)
Close to even
It's not very effective...(Switch out)
Close to even
It's not very effective...(Switch out)
It's super effective!(people who Ivy beats)
BowserKing Dedede-One of Dedede's most apparent character weaknesses is his unimpressive neutral game. Because of this, the tools that Ivy has here are much more useful. Keeping Dedede out is fairly easy, and this should be put on blast in the match-up. At best, your opponent should have to sift through an unreasonable ocean of defenses. Forehead height razor leafs will gain you a lot of mileage alone. A Dedede will quickly learn to fear vine whip and Ivy players should be keen to learn how this move can be used to restrict their opponent's gameplay. For example, on stages like Battlefield and Dreamland 64, D3 players have a powerful urge to jump from the ledge due to the fact that any aerial they preform will be auto ledge-cancelled. You should be able to snag a few vine whips from this habit. King Dedede also has the gift of arguably the deadliest off-stage game in Project M, so you should be careful, unpredictable, and very safe when making your way back on stage. Be wary of using your dair recklessly, as it is a great move for Dededes to try and strike you out of.
DKGame & WatchGanonIce Climbers-Ivysaur seems to have a meaty selection of moves that are good at seperating the ICs. There's a noticeable shortage of IC players in the game right now, so it's hard to say how they fare against most characters, but I'm inclined to think Ivysaur has the necessary tools to put them down.
PuffOlimarPeach-While I don't imagine this matchup is too heavily in Ivysaur's favor, I do think that Peach lacks many good responses to an Ivysaur that throws out safe (full hop) fairs and Bairs. For example, Peach's movement can be fairly sluggish and she seems to struggle with moves like fullhop fair. I also feel Peach's signature float game is under-effective against Ivysaur, compared to the rest of the cast. The tricky part about this pairing is that both characters tend to play very safe and like to have good breathing room between eachother, making this a likely slow and campy fight.
RoyYoshiZeldaClose to even
CharizardIkeLucasLuigiMarioMetaKnightMewtwoNessPikachuROBSamusSnakeSquirtle-Many of Ivy's common moves are multi-hits, and they lose a lot of utility against Squirtle. You will have to partition a certain amount of your concentration in the early game to always being pepared for an incoming armored attack. Squirt's armor strength is determined by how far he would have been sent. Your Dair and dash attack can break his shell armor at early percents. Before you know it, a good chunk of damage has been dealt and his armor will be virtually non-existent, and your moves will regain their common roles back. What sets the Squirtle vs Ivy experience apart from other characters is largely Squirtle's mobility. There's an interesting side to side dance in the match-up's movement style you will learn as you acclimate to his lunges and dives.
Toon Link-I find that most people's initial suspicion is that Toon Link wins because Ivysaur has been known to struggle with "spammy" characters, but I feel Toon Link's projectile game is very managable. If you stay airborne, most of Tink's projectiles will float right under you, and you can easily punish overzealous spammers. Ivysaur's range advantage on Toon Link is what I think makes this matchup not so bad. You should be mindful of your spacing and try to be close enough to Tink that you can hit him, but far enough to where his sword can't reach you. When it comes to offstage and gimping games, Toon Link is solidly equipped to defend himself while recovering (especially when close to the edge) so it seems the best way to go about hunting him offstage is to be brave, leap with a bair, and try to hit him hard while he is using his far-offstage AGT bomb jumps. On the other side of the coin, Toon Links like to edge-guard Ivysaur often by staying close to the stage and pelt Ivysaur with a volley of projectiles. Be careful to avoid things like bombs which will pop you up and lead into a dangerous fair.
WarioWolfZSSIt's not very effective...(Switch out)
DiddyFalco-Falco is a difficult match-up for Ivy for much the same reasons Fox is. He is thought by most, however, to be a bit easier to handle. The most noticeable things that separate Falco from Fox is his neutral, kill, and recovery game. Fox undoubtedly has an easier time landing finishing blows on Ivysaur, but Ivy also has an easier time finishing off Falco. From my experiences in this match-up, I found that any time I managed to get a razor leaf in play, good things happened for me, be it a moment of peace to better position myself, or a hiccup in Falco's momentum to capitalize on. Make the most out of these openings and opt to end combos early just to get him offstage and collect a free gimp.
FalconFox-This is a match-up in which both characters have potential to ravage the other. However, as long as fox's execution is on point, he should be at a significant advantage. As an Ivysaur, your chances of beating a Fox hinge mostly on how competent of a combo game you have developed, as you have the potential to 0-death fox off of nearly any hit (and especially grab) you can land. The main strengths that hold Fox over Ivysaur is his potential to pressure and land upward kills on Ivysaur. If you can manage staying safe despite his mobility, you should be able to land enough hits to cheese a victory out of the jaws of adversity .
Kirby-Solar Beam assumes sunny day is out when Kirby swallows Ivysaur, so DO NOT let it happen. While an Ivysaur may get two solar beams in a match, at best, Kirby can get one every life if he manages to swallow you each time. Besides inhale, Kirby's dash attack has been catching many players off guard in 3.0+ so keep in mind that Ivysaur's dash attack is fast and will beat it out at any time. One particularly frustrating detail of the match-up is that Kirby has a nearly guaranteed up-smash from dthrow at many percents. Its very important that you land a vertical kill early with vine-whip or uair and stay out of Kirby's close range.
LinkLucario-In this match-up, it does not seem that the best defense is a good offence. Instead, you should become a fortress and wall him out with titls, bairs, fairs, and whatever else is appropriate. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf so, straight off the bat, you should not expect to out-camp him with it. You may have to put a lot of effort into remembering that you can't shield and be safe Lucario. Shielding only delays him with his inevitable grab, so you should try to escape shielding situations as quickly as you can manage. For every lengthy combo you manage, Lucario can sneeze equal damage back at you much quicker.
Marth-Your range would be impressive in any other galaxy, but not Marth's. His attacks generally reach just as long but are twice as fast, and sometimes hit twice as hard. This one of Ivy's classic difficult matchups. It's very important to respect his grab range. Keep him at bay by walling the best you can, and take FULL advantage of any opening that comes by. Despite all his sword's benefits, you still have an edge on him when it comes to killing him, as you're more than equipped to sting like a bee offstage. If you are familiar with Marth's recovery game you should be able to secure edge-guards without much trouble. On the other side of the fence, you must be efficient and creative at the ledge to avoid being cornered and stuck, grabbing a ledge while Marth patiently awaits your response.
PitSheik-This is probably one of Ivysaur's most difficult counters, as she seems to have all the tools necessary to cut away at Ivy's options. Needles are a key part of this match-up and do wonders against Ivysaur. Alone, they are able to out-camp Ivysaur, as it takes only one needle to cancel a razor leaf, and it is not difficult to fire more than one at a time. In all of their uses, needles will force a reaction out of Ivysaur, so be safe in whatever response you take. Ivysaur is very susceptible to Sheik's shield pressure, chain-grabs, and crouch-cancel game, so you should research them and learn methods of escaping each. Sheik is also more than equipped to edge-guard you. Take note of what moves Sheik uses to keep you from returning to stage and attempt to change up your timing with dairs, and your air attack defenses. Another small note to add is that Sheik has the ability to interrupt Ivysaur's up-B recovery with aerial needles. It is unlikely to kill you as long as you recover below a 45 degree angle, so you are shielded by the stage.
Sonic
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