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Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC

Nazyrus

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Told ya Sakurai didn't hate Golden Sun. :)
Nor he forgot about it last year, like some dummies kept insisting lol. He clearly was waiting for it to be the 20th anniversary instead of doing it on the 19th. No way he or Nintendo rather, would forget about it on also the year where it also shares anniversary with a handheld console (which Japan loves so much), the gameboy advance!. Happy to see it finally happening.
 

Guynamednelson

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Nor he forgot about it last year, like some dummies kept insisting lol. He clearly was waiting for it to be the 20th anniversary instead of doing it on the 19th. No way he or Nintendo rather, would forget about it on also the year where it also shares anniversary with a handheld console (which Japan loves so much), the gameboy advance!. Happy to see it finally happening.
I kind of wonder if he waited for it to be August 1 in America, since like I've said, the games are more popular in the West.
 

Nazyrus

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I kind of wonder if he waited for it to be August 1 in America, since like I've said, the games are more popular in the West.
If you check the japanese retweet QTs to his posts, and all the japanese tweets overall through this anniversary day, you would realize how big it was actually in japan given the comments from people in Japan, one was even talking about how big it was in Nintendo Dream back in the day. Also if he wanted to wait for it to be August 1st in America, all he had to do was post it an hour after the pokemon stadium post or a couple of hours after, which he has done in the past multiple times. I honestly think he just forgot to schedule the post for last night, because iirc he confirmed that all of these pics are done beforehand, so he definitely didn't forget or anything , nor rushed to make the image post last minute.

Either way it doesn't really matter anymore if he tweeted it a little late imo, at least it was still August 1st in part of this side of the globe, lol.
A lot of japanese fans retweeted and responded to the post confirming how much they loved the games, and some even said how they wanted him the most to join Ultimate! which was a very nice surprise to read…so yeah, I don't believe in the notion that it wasn't as big in Japan to begin with, we just have look up at the amount of fans proving otherwise.
 
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ArkSPiTFirE

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Hurray! Glad it got it's mention. I had a feeling it could've been the day after.

GoldenSun20 was also lots of fun, kept me occupied all evening. So much good music and art to come out of it. Now we just patiently wait and see what happens in the rest of the year.
 

Pinguino21v

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Hopefully, this event made the word spread once more toward Camelot and Nintendo. I have honestly low hope for Isaac as the last character - I believe it will be Phoenix Wright - but if we could get a good remake, I would be satisfied.
 
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Nossnitro102

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Been a real minute. I've been addicted to FF14 lately. Heh. Wellll... there are a few avenues this could go not in any particular order of probability:
1, It could be another of those "Sakurai" picks.
2. It could be a third party.
3. It could be a first party.
4. It could be a character that breaks a "pre-established rule" that has yet to be broken.
 

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It could be a character that breaks a "pre-established rule" that has yet to be broken.
Knowing my luck the "pre-established rule" that'll be broken will go either way, it'll either be "first party dlc must be shillpicks" or "final characters can't be AAA third parties" that gets broken.
 

Nazyrus

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Hopefully, this event made the word spread once more toward Camelot and Nintendo. I have honestly low hope for Isaac as the last character - I believe it will be Phoenix Wright - but if we could get a good remake, I would be satisfied.
It certainly and definitely brings attention more easily towards him and Nintendo when someone (him) who works with them makes a post about the series themselves, they are more inclined to check the reactions and comments about it in such situation, rather than random GS comments on posts about different topics entirely.

Been a real minute. I've been addicted to FF14 lately. Heh. Wellll... there are a few avenues this could go not in any particular order of probability:
1, It could be another of those "Sakurai" picks.
2. It could be a third party.
3. It could be a first party.
4. It could be a character that breaks a "pre-established rule" that has yet to be broken.
So far all the characters in this pass have had very specifics reasons behind them getting in.

• Arms was already considered and therefore half assedly compensated in base game, because they always wanted it to be in the game. Basically it was a Nintendo pick in all its fullness. They wanted that IP of theirs to be represented as playable, and 2nd pass happening made it finally possible.

• Minecraft is literally celebrating the most sales successful gaming title.

• Sephiroth was timed to happen in the same year FF7R happened, just like how Hero was timed to happen in the year when DQ11 was once again Square Enix's main focus.

• Kazuya is from the best selling non-smash fighting game series, Tekken, and one of the most known fighting game series that had yet to be playable in the game, and it happened despite Sakurai saying he refused to make it happen because it didn't translate well into smash's gameplay back then. Just like he refused Ridley and then it happened anyway.

• Xenoblade Chronicles 2, another series Sakurai refused adding, in this case with the excuse being "it was too recent" back then in 2018, yet he went back on his words during this same game and brought Pyra and Mythra in. This was a clear example of how Sakurai can go back on his words during the current game, so people saying "better luck next game" ate crow really hard with this. The only excuse given in the end for Rex not getting in, was because he was too much of a hassle with characters going in multiple different directions, but that didn't stop XC2 from being added in the end anyway.


With this in consideration, I don't think they will add a 3rd party without a very specific reason, a big reason at that. That alone should help discarding a lot of 3rd parties that have nothing big going on or aren't a milestone of some sort in gaming history in general. The options really are short when you take this in consideration…

Of course, there is always the chance of it being a curveball, meaning a fan demanded 3rd party for the sake of pleasing fans, which has been indeed the theme of this second DLC pass as Sakurai previously described it would be.

If it's a first party, boi that just makes it even harder to speculate (as usual, because they are the hardest ones to speculate on at all ), but so far :

• Byleth promoted a new entry in the series (just like awakening and fates promoted theirs at their given times).

• Arms was already considered and wanted ( even Sakurai said Springman, who is an AT, was considered as well), and it ended happening since they had time to make some final inclusions with the second pass being greenlit. Min Min was the choice merely because it was chosen by the Arms's developer.

• XC2 was most definitely a fan demand pick, but I could see it also being to "promote" the Torna DLC that released on 2018 I guess.

So taking that in mind, it's either a 1st party that is getting something new recently or soon, or it's a fan demand 1st party (which Isaac would fit the bill, since he is like the biggest if not the second biggest most wanted first party out there yet).

The problem with analyzing 1st party based on getting something new or recently… is that there isn't much to look at recently really, specially considering WHEN the negotiations for the 2nd Pass happened, which was prior to Summer 2019.

Unless they pull a "corrin" (meaning they put a character from a game not yet released or localized), there isn't much going on in terms of 1st parties. So this leaves us with thinking the most flexible and easier thing to pick… a fan demanded 1st party (or something that they intended to be in base game like Arms that we aren't aware of…)

Imo, It's gonna be a fan demanded 1st party. I personally doubt a 3rd party closing this, specially given how base game and pass 1 ended with 1st parties. They've kept all of their big guns for the first half or midway of the passes so that they can push the sales of the "pass" format of the DLC, which is what profits them the most, because otherwise, people just buy individual characters instead, which is what happens when you already know most of the pass already, therefore you shouldn't expect anything BIG to close the DLC pass, just like it's proven by the fact that base game and Pass 1 didn't end big either. It's all a marketing strategy to get the most profit out of the DLC, have the big stuff make the pass format sell the most as possible while you still can.

And when looking at mii costumes, you can really see how they are just killing every fan demanded 3rd party with costumes instead of putting them as playable… so… yeeeeah… I really don't wanna pray for any 3rd party at this point, lol. That's just me tho!
 
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NessAtc.

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Reminder: https://twitter.com/road_guardian/status/1338930852860870657

Sephiroth was floating around in 2018, likely even earlier than that, which indicates that FP2 characters were mapped out back then. ARMS lacking music in the base game would suggest the same.

As well, given we've lacked a ballot character in pass 2, Isaac is definitely at the top of the list for that.
 

Nazyrus

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Reminder: https://twitter.com/road_guardian/status/1338930852860870657

Sephiroth was floating around in 2018, likely even earlier than that, which indicates that FP2 characters were mapped out back then. ARMS lacking music in the base game would suggest the same.

As well, given we've lacked a ballot character in pass 2, Isaac is definitely at the top of the list for that.
And also Steve / Minecraft content being heard that way back as well. Yeah pass 2 was decided a long time ago for the most part, it was only relying on whether Pass 2 was greenlit or not depending on sales or something I suppose. It makes sense, Microsoft and Square Enix sit with Nintendo in a single meeting respectively and chose both passes' characters of theirs to join in. Makes more sense than meeting multiple times.
 

Guynamednelson

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problem with analyzing 1st party based on getting something new or recently… is that there isn't much to look at recently really, specially considering WHEN the negotiations for the 2nd Pass happened, which was prior to Summer 2019.
And a further problem with that is that the fanbase likes to believe the characters being locked in by November 2019 literally means every single choice they made was done in that month, despite the pass revisiting plans from years ago.
 

SonicLink125

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SUPER late to show these off. But yeah! Golden Sun 20th Anniversary was a blast! I was so happy to see so many fans come together all over the world to show love for this wonderful series. Hope Nintendo (and maybe Sakurai) saw!


CP11 is going to be the hardest one to speculate on. It could be anyone at this point. I already am preparing myself that it could be a SMT Rep, a Pokemon Rep, a FE Rep, Phoenix Wright, or whatever.
However, I have not given up on Isaac as he STILL could happen. There are a lot of reasons he could have be chosen too. There are way WAY too many weird coincidences surrounding him, moreso than any character out there, that make me really question what's going on. Of course, the reality could be that Nintendo was being dumb and it means nothing. But honestly, that's not fun thinking there. lol
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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What first party games even came out in 2018 other than Smash? I can think of Mario Tennis, Pokémon Let's Go, Kirby Star Allies...and not much else. They all have representation, excluding the weird position Waluigi is in. So there's not much left from this era of the Switch left to represent is there?

Three Houses does kinda blow this theory away, managing to get a pretty early fighter in Pass 1 just seven months or so after the release. But we know Sakurai had early access to the game to make this happen. Whether or not he'll consider dipping into 2019 titles again for FP11, who can really say? I think they all got spirit events or tournaments in some form. I'm kind of on the fence as to whether this shuts them out or not. They were spirit events during the DLC cycle, but they could just...ignore that if they want.

I selfishly hope they are ignored, because it'll rule a handful of Switch titles that I feel Nintendo might otherwise want to represent in Smash right now. Gen 8, Astral Chain and Ring Fit mainly. To be honest I've already written off the latter two but not Pokémon, even though that has less going for it when you think about it. I guess I just don't trust Nintendo.

That still leaves 2020 and 2021 representation. I honestly don't think they'll bring in such a new character at this stage that's not Fire Emblem. I could see Nintendo rubbing their hands at SMT V, but I don't think Sakurai will get to just get an early demo of the game. I also don't think SMT III makes a lot of sense either. People just started talking about him after the remake reveal, but what exactly is the purpose? It's not like anyone was talking about him before that. Also while it could be third party, I'm pretty much assuming it won't be, for my own sanity.

Paper Mario...I'm leaning towards a No. Who's to tell if he would count as Mario series or his own spin off. Technically we have the Mario rep already. He wouldn't be a bad choice though I feel. We did get a new game, and that's not even super required to form him a moveset. I threw him in my speculation as a wildcard maybe.

If I cross all of the above out, then I don't see how the next first party isn't Isaac. Even Waluigi would be a stretch to justify now, but an easy pick for next game. He's just not pack worthy, and we have a Mario DLC. Other unrepresented series exist but hnnngh, Isaac's so easyyy. He's free real eastate.

Granted, my mind -wants- to come to this conclusion, it's hard to be super impartial and doing so is the only reason it's hard to rule out a Pokémon, but if I give myself a bit of hope then Isaac makes tonnes of sense. We've got 1 more space in the pass from last time. Could they really have completed all the new Switch representation they were planning to do, so they had a chance to add one more older character that got a lot of requests? I really hope so.
 

Guynamednelson

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What first party games even came out in 2018 other than Smash? I can think of Mario Tennis, Pokémon Let's Go, Kirby Star Allies...and not much else. They all have representation, excluding the weird position Waluigi is in. So there's not much left from this era of the Switch left to represent is there?
At this point, Eevee would get in solely to promote Eevee (because TPC does that), not Let's Go. Other than that, a first-party being CP11 would indeed have to be an older fan request, because besides all those modern games being spirited, I imagine Ring Fit's audience is too casual to care about fighting game DLC.
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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At this point, Eevee would get in solely to promote Eevee (because TPC does that), not Let's Go. Other than that, a first-party being CP11 would indeed have to be an older fan request, because besides all those modern games being spirited, I imagine Ring Fit's audience is too casual to care about fighting game DLC.
Well it didn't stop Wii Fit Trainer. Having played it myself, I think its got plenty of room to be fighter, I just don't think it'll happen until next time.
 

Guynamednelson

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Wait, the pass was discounted at one point? When?
That's not what he meant, he meant that it's cheaper to buy the passes than buying the fighters individually.
 
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NessAtc.

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Well it didn't stop Wii Fit Trainer. Having played it myself, I think its got plenty of room to be fighter, I just don't think it'll happen until next time.
Wii Fit is a very different case, since it was chosen because it was a killer app for the Wii, and something that was basically a household name. Wii Fit's installments sold over 70 million copies in total. Ring Fit is no slouch with its ten million, but it did not match with Wii Fit by any means. Wii Fit was something that was just too big to ignore, never mind that Ring Fit came out when pass 2 was already decided on. Two months is not enough time to decide on the character for smash, so it would have need to be picked in advance, which doesn't seem reasonable when only Fire Emblem and Pokemon are afforded that concession. And thus, we got the spirits added instead. It seems pretty clear it's out.

It's important to recognize the timing of the decisions made. And because of that, it's actually impossible for any of the current pass to be the resident "fan demanded character", since ARMS and Xenoblade 2 were chosen to have characters before they really took off with fan demand. Ballot is then still the only factor left to consider, if they knew what they were doing well before the game was out.
 

Nazyrus

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It's important to recognize the timing of the decisions made. And because of that, it's actually impossible for any of the current pass to be the resident "fan demanded character", since ARMS and Xenoblade 2 were chosen to have characters before they really took off with fan demand. Ballot is then still the only factor left to consider, if they knew what they were doing well before the game was out.
Pretty much. Let's take a look at the dojo poll which was made at the time the Ballot was happening, and funnily enough, it is the only one fan poll to be the most accurate in terms of what we got in Ultimate, which is no coincidence.
Screen Shot 2021-08-03 at 7.47.53 PM.png


King K Rool … ✅
Banjo Kazooie … ✅
Returning veterans … ✅
Simon Belmont… ✅
Inkling… ✅

This is why polls only really are worth checking when they are done around the time an official poll happened, otherwise you're gonna get different trends of results if you do it much later after the official one happened, and therefore you will get inaccurate results if you want to "guess" what the ballot results could've possibly been. This is how and when fan polls tend to be more accurate, not months or years later.

This is also why I find, polls that happen after negotiations have been made, quite pointless, lol…

It's always good to remember and notice how high Isaac was in terms of demand when the ballot happened, because yes, the ballot has definitely been the guide for a LOT of the inclusions in Ultimate as you can see ( ignore the colors of the poll, it hasn't been updated ever since, lol ). How curious that Isaac is the only returning AT to get new moves huh?…… I have some hope left yet until this is truly over. If it doesn't happen, oh well, but we can't deny the accuracy of the dojo poll and how the ballot has DEFINITELY been used as a guide to many of the inclusions in Ultimate's roster, and even mii costumes as well.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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All I know is that if we are getting a Pokemon newcomer as DLC, it won’t be a Sword & Shield one due to the spirit event. If anything, a Gen 4 newcomer is more likely.
 

NessAtc.

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All I know is that if we are getting a Pokemon newcomer as DLC, it won’t be a Sword & Shield one due to the spirit event. If anything, a Gen 4 newcomer is more likely.
Why though? If a Pokemon of any kind is happening, it would just be Gen 8. The new Gen 4 stuff wasn't around 2018-2019, when pass 2 was being sorted out. And I'd say the thing that's most damning for a pokemon isn't the spirit event, but the fact that it wasn't at FP9 even though A. that would have been timed perfectly with the anniversary and B. it was a few months after Gen 8's DLC fully released. "Aegis was 9 though" isn't really valid either, since I see no reason why you would place pokemon at the end and not xenoblade. Not like Shulk was revealed before Greninja.
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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Honestly, a spirit event was a given for Sword and Shield anyway. If we didn't get one for its base game, the DLC justified it due to being the whole new "third version" done differently, something very huge for Pokemon and worth celebrating. So a second spirit event even is possible. It's not the first time they've made exception for series either way(though it's pretty much Pokemon and Fire Emblem that tend to get special picks that other series don't. Bias or otherwise).

I completely agree with the timing factor too. That seems really odd. Why would it be later? It's pretty much the biggest Pokemon game to go with. Not everything is the same kind of promotion. It'd be no different from Xenoblade or ARMS, who basically had their games done with. It's easy to see it as SwSh or nothing for them anyway. So while it could happen, the timing is simply strange. On the other hand, it could be something interesting enough and from a highly recognizable game Nintendo would think it would "go out with a splash" for a lot of the casual fanbase. So while the timing doesn't promote anything directly, it can still serve a purpose. I mean, Byleth was a pretty deaf tone finisher(though it's implied we had more Bonus DLC coming, most likely Steve, with maybe one more after that already planned).
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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Camelot's original JRPG titan Shining Force is returning with a new mobile game. Camelot isn't developing this game but they did express interest in making a Shining Force 4 in 2017 so this doing well might lead to that, ofc I'm not implying it will have a negative effect on Golden Sun's future.
 

StrawHatX

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So an old Nintendo IP that hasn't gotten a new game in years was announced last E3, and we now see an old Camelot IP getting a new game as well.

Now if we could just mix these two things together...
Camelot: “We know you guys have been waiting three long years…. BUT we’re happy to announce to you all Mario Tennis Aces: Back on the Court!”
 
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