Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC

FlawedAI

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Yeah, but Mii costumes and assists are not comparable to assists and fighters. No fighter has been an assist in the same game, and I just don't see this trend breaking unless it's adult Isaac from Dark Dawn who makes it in.
I'm not really sure why you think they're not comparable, Mii Costumes are playable representations of the character, right? Before Ultimate no company had gotten two characters in DLC but now Microsoft has both Banjo and Steve, before Min Min no character could be a Spirit and a playable character, pretty much every "fan rule" like that has been buried in the ground. I've made my argument, and I'm not trying to discourage you from sharing your opinion on the matter, but I personally disagree with it.
 
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Starlight Liger

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I'm not really sure why you think they're not comparable, Mii Costumes are playable representations of the character, right? Before Ultimate no company had gotten two characters in DLC but now Microsoft has both Banjo and Steve, before Min Min no character could be a Spirit and a playable character, pretty much every "fan rule" like that has been buried in the ground. I've made my argument, and I'm not trying to discourage you from sharing your opinion on the matter, but I personally disagree with it.
I just personally feel that if Isaac was going to be a fighter, he wouldn't have returned as an assist. I understand your perspective, trends have been broken time and time again but this is the one trend that I just don't see breaking. I'd love to see it break so we can get Waluigi and Isaac, but again, I just really can't see that happening.

No western company has gotten a character into Smash until Banjo & Kazooie.
That's not true, Diddy Kong was created by Rare and he made it into Brawl.
 

Guynamednelson

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I just personally feel that if Isaac was going to be a fighter, he wouldn't have returned as an assist.
I just personally feel that not that much of FP2 was planned during the base game. Trying to get Steve in sure, but what Sakurai said in the Byleth presentation was "I thought that one or two might suffice", making me think Steve is alone in that regard. That and I don't think they would've bothered having a Min Min spirit battle in the base game if FP2 planning fully started in 2018.
That's not true, Diddy Kong was created by Rare and he made it into Brawl.
I meant one owned by a western company.
 
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NessAtc.

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I just personally feel that if Isaac was going to be a fighter, he wouldn't have returned as an assist. I understand your perspective, trends have been broken time and time again but this is the one trend that I just don't see breaking. I'd love to see it break so we can get Waluigi and Isaac, but again, I just really can't see that happening.
I feel like if Min Min was going to be a fighter, she wouldn't have been made a spirit!

...Wait a minute.
 

Starlight Liger

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I feel like if Min Min was going to be a fighter, she wouldn't have been made a spirit!

...Wait a minute.
Why are you using that argument when Isaac is an assist trophy? As I mentioned earlier, unless the pattern breaks with Isaac (which I don't see happening), assist trophies can't be fighters in the same game.
 

Guynamednelson

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Why are you using that argument when Isaac is an assist trophy?
Most of Fighters Pass 2 was planned AFTER the non-fighter representation in the base game, benefiting Min Min. Fighters Pass 1 was planned alongside the base game, hence why it didn't include any games already represented/SSBU didn't have any content from Persona/DQ/BK/SNK/Three Houses until their respective challenger packs.
 

Starlight Liger

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Most of Fighters Pass 2 was planned AFTER the non-fighter representation in the base game, benefiting Min Min. Fighters Pass 1 was planned alongside the base game, hence why it didn't include any games already represented/SSBU didn't have any content from Persona/DQ/BK/SNK/Three Houses until their respective challenger packs.
The Smash ballot was created during the Smash 3DS/Wii U days with the most popular fighters from that ballot being in Smash Ultimate (Simon Belmont, King K. Rool and Ridley). Isaac would have been voted in that ballot. Knowing that he's a first-party Nintendo character and knowing that he had demand in the Smash ballot, why did Sakurai relegate him back to an assist trophy again?

Again, I'm not hating on his inclusion, I just feel that the odds are stacked against him unless it's Adult Isaac from Dark Dawn who makes the cut.
 

Guynamednelson

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The Smash ballot was created during the Smash 3DS/Wii U days with the most popular fighters from that ballot being in Smash Ultimate (Simon Belmont, King K. Rool and Ridley). Isaac would have been voted in that ballot. Knowing that he's a first-party Nintendo character and knowing that he had demand in the Smash ballot, why did Sakurai relegate him back to an assist trophy again?

Again, I'm not hating on his inclusion, I just feel that the odds are stacked against him unless it's Adult Isaac from Dark Dawn who makes the cut.
Because they didn't have time to make all ballot choices fighters. But now that all the fighters whose plans were finalized by 2019 are in, they can look back at characters they didn't have time to make fighters. Like Min Min.
 
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Nazyrus

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I'm not gonna waste my time typing something I already said many pages ago, so I will just quote myself.

Bomberman man… can we just say AT fan rule is dead 100%? as if Min min didn't break the "no upgrades overall" fan rule already. Even if Bomberman wasn't an upgrade to a playable full on fighter, the point STILL stands, people thought it wasn't gonna be done because "hurr durr limitations i made up hurr durr" and whatever dumb ****, but here they are, playable forms of such ATs, it doesn't matter if they are miis, they are still playable forms of such characters, it literally kills the dumbass fan rule.

Like just because a mii has the moveset of a mii, and a fighter would have a unique moveset, it doesn't change what it already broke technically speaking, it makes no difference whether it's one or the other, they are playable forms of the character.

Point being: fan rule is dead, not meaning anyone is a lock, but ATs are possible to be upgraded and people's made up excuses to deny it are gone, period.
And when someone already has an AT and a mii… the only next thing for it is a fighter upgrade :p
A playable form of an AT is a playable form of an AT, mii or fighter, you're using that playable form of the character in matches, the only difference is the model and what type of moveset it has, which has no relevance in the end when using such playable form while an AT is still existing in the game, let alone if it appears in the match. Bomberman proved that they are listening for the first time ever to backlash within the same current title, even as far as in season 2 of DLC. The fan rule is dead, let it go already. Whether it happens or not, it will have nothing to do with that made up fan rule purely based on "muh precedents", but rather it will be because either they didn't care enough or failed to listen or something more realistic, not due to technical made up nonsense that never existed other than in some people who can't stop moving goalposts out there on the internet instead of accepting hope of anything being possible after seeing how Sakurai keeps btfo-ing every naysayer out there.
 
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pupNapoleon

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Yeah, but Mii costumes and assists are not comparable to assists and fighters. No fighter has been an assist in the same game, and I just don't see this trend breaking unless it's adult Isaac from Dark Dawn who makes it in.
...I don't understand the logic here. Bomberman isn't really a 'Mii costume,' it's the exact same model. It isn't comparable to K.Rool Mii and the character. Can you help me understand the point?
 

Starlight Liger

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...I don't understand the logic here. Bomberman isn't really a 'Mii costume,' it's the exact same model. It isn't comparable to K.Rool Mii and the character. Can you help me understand the point?
I've reiterated my point ad-nauseaum, Isaac had the chance to be a fighter but his chances plummeted when he returned as an assist trophy. He didn't have to return as an assist trophy but he did. That's my logic, if he was a fighter candidate, he wouldn't have returned as an assist trophy, he would have either been reserved as a fighter, or get given a Mii costume to tide Golden Sun fans over until he was a playable fighter.

Also, what's up with everybody ignoring my request for Dark Dawn Isaac?

There is no point, just endless moving goalposts
That sort of attitude is confrontational and not productive to the nature of these discussions, stop it.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I've reiterated my point ad-nauseaum, Isaac had the chance to be a fighter but his chances plummeted when he returned as an assist trophy. He didn't have to return as an assist trophy but he did. That's my logic, if he was a fighter candidate, he wouldn't have returned as an assist trophy, he would have either been reserved as a fighter, or get given a Mii costume to tide Golden Sun fans over until he was a playable fighter.
And I've repeated my point ad-nauseaum: FP2 minus Steve was not planned at the same time as FP1 and the base game. If it was, either ARMS content would be suspiciously absent from the base game, or there would be no ARMS challenger pack. Not with Spring Man, not with Min Min, not with Dr. Coyle, whoever.
 
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NessAtc.

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Why are you using that argument when Isaac is an assist trophy? As I mentioned earlier, unless the pattern breaks with Isaac (which I don't see happening), assist trophies can't be fighters in the same game.
What "pattern"? The pattern that some characters don't get picked over other characters because that's not what they wanted to pick at the time? Because let me tell you right now; the reason Isaac hasn't been added yet isn't because of some arbitrary assist trophy rule or anything like that. The reason is that in the snapshots of decision so far, there have been characters out prioritizing him. It's RIDICULOUS to think that Isaac COULD be on the table, but is just cast aside because "oh he's an assist trophy, gotta throw him out, can't have that"

Why shouldn't characters repped by assist trophies be considered? It already happened for Spring Man; he was heavily considered, but ultimately it fell onto Min Min because of the ARMS director's interest.
 

Starlight Liger

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NessAtc.

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Judging from this interview, Sakurai says that Min Min and Ninjara were the ARMS representatives he was considering.
Thanks for linking eventhubs, the most reliable source, instead of actually linking stuff from PushDustin or Sephazon.

Yes, while Ninjara was also considered, that was only from Sakurai's perspective. He felt he "had" to add Spring Man up until Yabuki told him "everyone's the protagonist", which is literally the same thing as saying "he was heavily considered".

The choice of who to pick to rep ARMS was never Sakurai's own decision. He left that choice up to Yabuki, and Yabuki came up with Min Min. That's all there is to it. It's not like Yabuki didn't choose Spring Man because he himself would have been bugged by spring man being an AT and a fighter.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Thanks for linking eventhubs, the most reliable source, instead of actually linking stuff from PushDustin or Sephazon.

Yes, while Ninjara was also considered, that was only from Sakurai's perspective. He felt he "had" to add Spring Man up until Yabuki told him "everyone's the protagonist", which is literally the same thing as saying "he was heavily considered".

The choice of who to pick to rep ARMS was never Sakurai's own decision. He left that choice up to Yabuki, and Yabuki came up with Min Min. That's all there is to it. It's not like Yabuki didn't choose Spring Man because he himself would have been bugged by spring man being an AT and a fighter.
To me, I believe Sakurai wanted to utilize an ARMS character's unique attributes, and Spring Man's, being parrying and a buff when highly damaged, are universal across the Smash cast and wouldn't help make his moves more varied than just extended punches. Since we didn't get a generic ARMS moveset, Min Min joined the battle alone and gets to kick as much as she wants without worrying about it looking awkward if Spring Man did it.
 

jweb23

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I have to be honest, this is all so silly to me. Seriously, how many times have we seen the Smash speculation scene create some theory or rule based off a “pattern” they think they are seeing!? There was color theory and music theory which both ended up being wrong.

There are people that mention things Sakurai has said before but guess what, Sakurai has said before that he can’t see how to make an Animal Crossing character fight or that Ridley will ever be playable...but guess who are fighters now...Villager and Ridley!

And there were so MANY trying to claim spirits mean a character can’t be playable but then we got Min Min.

I’m seriously tired of the constant moving goalpost! The speculation scene gets proven wrong time and time again about one of their silly “rules” but for some reason continue to cling to the other silly ones that haven’t yet been destroyed.

And please understand, I’m not trying to make you feel bad about how you’re looking at things. But we need to understand the way we personally feel about certain characters means absolutely nothing! Sakurai and Nintendo are gonna do what they want! And trust me, if Nintendo goes to Sakurai and says, “we want (insert character name) as dlc” I guarantee you Sakurai is NOT gonna say, “but (insert character name) is an assist trophy...I can’t do it.”

So just stop with that whole “this must be a rule to character select” bs. As long as the character originates from a video game, then they have a chance! Even the ones who may already be represented in Smash in a non-playable way.
 

FlawedAI

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The only is there is no rules the character has to originate from a video game. That's literally it. As long as the character;s first-ever appearance was in a video game, they are fair game. Everything else is evaluated on a case-by-case basis, usually based on the character's moveset potential. If Nintendo wants Sakurai to add a character, he'll do it (as seen in the Steve presentation). So if Nintendo wanted Isaac, Sakurai wouldn't say "well, darn, I'd love to, but we decided 2-3 years ago that he'd be an Assist and that's that" because that doesn't make any sense.
 

GoodGrief741

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I think it's best to drop this discussion. I understand where everyone's coming from, and I myself am more firmly on the side of Assist Trophies not disconfirming (after a brief stint on the other side)

But why does it matter? This is still a supporter. Even if they don't have high hopes of Isaac getting in, they still showed up to talk Golden Sun and support its future. That's more than enough imo.
 

Starlight Liger

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The original post that incited the discussion was that he can't support the character because he's an assist trophy. I'm not going to force people to change their stances but you can still support something and keep low expectations for it ever happening
And I still believe it's a valid argument, because unlike these colour theories and music theories, it's yet to be proven wrong.


Looking at this video, it seems a bunch of playable characters were spirits before Min Min's reveal so I don't know who made that rule up.

If the arbitary rule of assists gets broken (as they say, never say never) I'll support Isaac. Until then, I'm still hedging my speculations on Dark Dawn Isaac should we get a Golden Sun representative.
 

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And I still believe it's a valid argument, because unlike these colour theories and music theories, it's yet to be proven wrong.


Looking at this video, it seems a bunch of playable characters were spirits before Min Min's reveal so I don't know who made that rule up.

If the arbitary rule of assists gets broken (as they say, never say never) I'll support Isaac. Until then, I'm still hedging my speculations on Dark Dawn Isaac should we get a Golden Sun representative.
I understand having some skepticism, but if everyone believed everything that hasn't happened before will never happen, there wouldn't be demand for Banjo, Sans, Steve...
 

Lenidem

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Besides, even if you think that there is no chance for Ultimate, you can support whoever you like for the next game.

I mean, for me, ''supporting'' a character just means that my pseudonym appears on the first page of his thread on this forum, so it's not like it's time consuming or anything.
 

Billybae10K

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Yo, crazy thought. But did y'all know you can support a character, regardless of the belief on whether they'll happen or not. It's a pretty interesting concept. I say this because you guys are going to go around in circles with neither side budging for another 2/3 pages at this rate.
 

Nawgust

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Yo, crazy thought. But did y'all know you can support a character, regardless of the belief on whether they'll happen or not. It's a pretty interesting concept. I say this because you guys are going to go around in circles with neither side budging for another 2/3 pages at this rate.
Not everyone can have the raw, unfiltered fan support of Big the Cat. We do what we can here.
 

NessAtc.

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And I still believe it's a valid argument, because unlike these colour theories and music theories, it's yet to be proven wrong.


Looking at this video, it seems a bunch of playable characters were spirits before Min Min's reveal so I don't know who made that rule up.

If the arbitary rule of assists gets broken (as they say, never say never) I'll support Isaac. Until then, I'm still hedging my speculations on Dark Dawn Isaac should we get a Golden Sun representative.
What I don't understand is why you think DD Isaac is more likely to get in than original Isaac. What is the logic here? OG Isaac is the one with the working model, the voice actor, the texture mapping, the fan demand, and is the original protagonist. By all rights, he's the prime addition for a Golden Sun rep, no contest. So why do you think they would pick someone else just based on the fact that he's an assist? It's painfully obvious that they really don't care about "asset crossover" since they literally ported over the Bomberman AT vertex by vertex for the mii costume, and you can barely tell the difference between the two. So what is your logic?
 

Starlight Liger

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What I don't understand is why you think DD Isaac is more likely to get in than original Isaac. What is the logic here? OG Isaac is the one with the working model, the voice actor, the texture mapping, the fan demand, and is the original protagonist. By all rights, he's the prime addition for a Golden Sun rep, no contest. So why do you think they would pick someone else just based on the fact that he's an assist? It's painfully obvious that they really don't care about "asset crossover" since they literally ported over the Bomberman AT vertex by vertex for the mii costume, and you can barely tell the difference between the two. So what is your logic?
Dark Dawn Isaac is not an assist trophy, I'm dying on that hill and the only way I can be proven wrong is if an assist trophy ends up being a playable fighter. If I get proven wrong with any of the upcoming fighters revealed, Isaac chances of being a playable fighter increases. However, if I'm right then I'm right.
 

NessAtc.

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Dark Dawn Isaac is not an assist trophy, I'm dying on that hill and the only way I can be proven wrong is if an assist trophy ends up being a playable fighter. If I get proven wrong with any of the upcoming fighters revealed, Isaac chances of being a playable fighter increases. However, if I'm right then I'm right.
It's still Isaac. If Isaac's on the table, they won't arbitrarily pick his DD design. They don't care that much about continuity.

I can guarantee, even if he's not made playable in this pass, that you are just blatantly wrong. Because they don't consider that when they're deciding who to make playable. The proof is in the pudding; not one time did Sakurai say Spring Man being an assist trophy disqualified him from consideration. He absolutely could have said this on the multiple times he addressed it, but he never said that. That's a dead giveaway right there.

The only thing that could keep Isaac out is not being in consideration at all. You know, like every other character that doesn't get considered out in that vast sea.
 

Pinguino21v

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I was thinking... the more time goes with no announcement, the more likely the Golden Sun remake will be astonishing. Can you believe something as glorious as Breath of the Wild or Xenoblade(s) worlds for Golden Sun?
 

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I was thinking... the more time goes with no announcement, the more likely the Golden Sun remake will be astonishing. Can you believe something as glorious as Breath of the Wild or Xenoblade(s) worlds for Golden Sun?
To be honest, do we really want such a thing? I don't think a remake needs to abandon the 2D gameplay, nor add a hyper-detailed overworld. I'm very much expecting something graphically on par with the Mario Tennis Aces single player, which I firmly believe at this point was meant as a prototype/proof-of-concept for a Golden Sun HD. Maybe we move towards a more ambitious, Xenoblade-style world in future installments, but I think a successful reintroduction of the beloved original games needs to come first.
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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Yeah I'd expect the remake to keep the top down approach with new HD visuals and 3D renders, it could still make the necessary fixes to the story/dialogue and the gameplay and what not but I'm expecting it to be pretty faithful. They can start being more experimental if it sells well and get the chance to work on new installments
 
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Starlight Liger

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Yo, crazy thought. But did y'all know you can support a character, regardless of the belief on whether they'll happen or not. It's a pretty interesting concept. I say this because you guys are going to go around in circles with neither side budging for another 2/3 pages at this rate.
Exactly. I support Isaac's inclusion, I was never against him being a fighter because if I were then I never would have contributed to this thread. I just gave my reasons as to why he's unlikely.
 

FlawedAI

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Yeah I'd expect the remake to keep the top down approach with new HD visuals and 3D renders, it could still make the necessary fixes to the story/dialogue and the gameplay and what not but I'm expecting it to be pretty faithful. They can start being more experimental if it sells well and get the chance to work on new installments
Exactly this, a major change in gameplay would break my heart. The reason I love the series is because of the classic JRPG gameplay, I don't need Xenoblade-style battles. Let Xenoblade do that, Golden Sun should be a pure JRPG in the same vein as Dragon Quest.
 

Starlight Liger

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Exactly this, a major change in gameplay would break my heart. The reason I love the series is because of the classic JRPG gameplay, I don't need Xenoblade-style battles. Let Xenoblade do that, Golden Sun should be a pure JRPG in the same vein as Dragon Quest.
The Link's Awakening remake proved that Nintendo will happy remake a game 1:1 if it ain't broke.
 
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