Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[NessAtc.]

IIRC, the dates are for the Application and the Registration respectively right? So wouldn't that mean it's literally just the application for the trademark last year being registered? i.e. Literally just the same thing from last year being in effect now?

For comparison, the trademark for Advance Wars was applied for on Dec 4th last year and was only registered Oct 25th this year.

Forgive me if I have this wrong but maybe it's not worth looking in to like we thought?

In order to even apply for a trademark to begin with you have to need to use it, and spend money to secure it. Refer to this graphic from jpo.gov.jp:
https://www.jpo.go.jp/e/system/trademark/gaiyo/trademark.html

The most important part here is the "Registration Fee Payment" part. What this means is that for a trademark to actually be registered after it's application, a fee is required at the time of it's registration request. Another important part is Opposition to Grant of a Trademark. The GS trademark actually was opposed back in June, and in spite of that went through. The other deal is that for a trademark to even be registered, you require proof of use, especially if it's being opposed.

So yeah, that Advance Wars trademark likely also does mean something, just because we know Team Ninja took a pretty big chunk of developing FE3H. IS had to have diverted resources elsewhere at the same time.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I imagine this is something that should be taken with truckloads of salt....but it is kinda interesting that it seems like the leakers haven't been able to deconfirm assist trophies. Though to be fair with how many possibilities are still on this list they might as well be saying "anything is possible".

Spoiler

Apparently this is where things stand at the moment in terms of Sabi vs Vergeben.

 

[Ura]

It was registered this summer, then it got into a period of opposition for a few month. This november it entered the final stage "Issued and Active" meaning you can't oppose it anymore (so it means, probably, that nintendo showed proof of use)

In order to even apply for a trademark to begin with you have to need to use it, and spend money to secure it. Refer to this graphic from jpo.gov.jp:
https://www.jpo.go.jp/e/system/trademark/gaiyo/trademark.html

The most important part here is the "Registration Fee Payment" part. What this means is that for a trademark to actually be registered after it's application, a fee is required at the time of it's registration request. Another important part is Opposition to Grant of a Trademark. The GS trademark actually was opposed back in June, and in spite of that went through. The other deal is that for a trademark to even be registered, you require proof of use, especially if it's being opposed.

So yeah, that Advance Wars trademark likely also does mean something, just because we know Team Ninja took a pretty big chunk of developing FE3H. IS had to have diverted resources elsewhere at the same time.

Yeah but that's usually the standard course of action for Nintendo (or any company for that matter) to do for their IP. It means they're protecting their IP so others can't use it. Some have speculated this is in part due to the Mario Kart thingy from last year where someone opened their own track using the Mario Kart brand. So now they're having a stronger grip on their IP to prevent things like that.

As much as I want to believe this could mean something for those two series, it seems kinda unlikely and mote like safe-keeping measures. That being said, there is a few things going for both franchises in their chances of returning so don't lose hope.

I imagine this is something that should be taken with truckloads of salt....but it is kinda interesting that it seems like the leakers haven't been able to deconfirm assist trophies. Though to be fair with how many possibilities are still on this list they might as well be saying "anything is possible".

Spoiler

Apparently this is where things stand at the moment in terms of Sabi vs Vergeben.

Maybe but honestly with the way things are going, i'm 90% sure it's KOS-MOS being revealed 3 days from now.

Would love a curveball though. Especially in the form of a certain Spirit haha.

 

[Kalaam]

The thing is, they wouldn't need a *new* trademark for that. Just to renew the one already there, which they did a few years back if I recall properly.
However, 2 things: They were still far from the expiration date, so they didn't need to renew them yet. And as I just said, they have no reason to submit a new trademark, updated for switch games (not virtual console, switch games) if it was just for that. It costs money to do, they wouldn't spend that money for nothing.

 

[Ura]

The thing is, they wouldn't need a *new* trademark for that. Just to renew the one already there, which they did a few years back if I recall properly.
However, 2 things: They were still far from the expiration date, so they didn't need to renew them yet. And as I just said, they have no reason to submit a new trademark, updated for switch games (not virtual console, switch games) if it was just for that. It costs money to do, they wouldn't spend that money for nothing.

IDK, it just sounds like they're updating what the scope of the trademark covers with the new trademark. And also IIRC, these were the trademarks covering the western names of the series no? The previous trademarks were for the Japanese names of Golden Sun/Advance Wars so it could be that as well.

Basiclly, i'll believe it when I see it lol.

 

[Kalaam]

I understand your skepicism^^

 

[Ura]

I understand your skepicism^^

Yeah it's like, i've got my hopes up so many times before in the past where it's like "nah I don't want to do this to myself again". Being burned for this long will do it to a guy I tell ya'.

Like I said, I think both GS and AW have things going for them but that's the extent of it. I'm not actively expecting either to show up randomly in whatever Direct even though I always remain hopeful lol.

 

[NessAtc.]

Yeah but that's usually the standard course of action for Nintendo (or any company for that matter) to do for their IP. It means they're protecting their IP so others can't use it. Some have speculated this is in part due to the Mario Kart thingy from last year where someone opened their own track using the Mario Kart brand. So now they're having a stronger grip on their IP to prevent things like that.

As much as I want to believe this could mean something for those two series, it seems kinda unlikely and mote like safe-keeping measures. That being said, there is a few things going for both franchises in their chances of returning so don't lose hope.

...except neither trademark actually covers those things. The only category they cover is category 9, exclusively related to gaming-based stuff. Aside from that, trademark is assurance to the public that this is a certain product. Copyright is ACTUAL IP protection, Trademark does not help protect even remotely. Only secures that you sole own a brand for specific use.

Copyright protects the use of characters and stuff from a specific series outside of fair use. Trademark protects a brand for sale. If you have nothing for sale, *you have no basis for a trademark*.

I get you don't want to overexcite yourself and don't want to prematurely believe something is happening. Don't attempt to brush away actual legal circumstances, however.

 

[Nazyrus]

The thing is, they wouldn't need a *new* trademark for that. Just to renew the one already there, which they did a few years back if I recall properly.
However, 2 things: They were still far from the expiration date, so they didn't need to renew them yet. And as I just said, they have no reason to submit a new trademark, updated for switch games (not virtual console, switch games) if it was just for that. It costs money to do, they wouldn't spend that money for nothing.

True. There was no need for even a renewal yet. The only time such an updated trademark for golden sun happened in this way was back then when DD happened. And we know Trademarks are done or protecting the brand, so it never had anything to do with smash, that would have been a copyright instead if anything.

I'm spreading the hype up again (2 parts tweet), because I certainly think it's worth it. This has money involved, so it definitely isn't done for nothing, NoJ doesn't do that type of thing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[MeatOfJustice]

If you ask me, I think Fighter 5 is another character that went under the radar like Terry.

So yeah, that Advance Wars trademark likely also does mean something, just because we know Team Ninja took a pretty big chunk of developing FE3H. IS had to have diverted resources elsewhere at the same time.

It wasn't Team Ninja, it was Koei Tecmo (the company that made Ninja Gaiden), the game shares FE Warriors' engine.

 

[Ura]

...except neither trademark actually covers those things. The only category they cover is category 9, exclusively related to gaming-based stuff. Aside from that, trademark is assurance to the public that this is a certain product. Copyright is ACTUAL IP protection, Trademark does not help protect even remotely. Only secures that you sole own a brand for specific use.

Copyright protects the use of characters and stuff from a specific series outside of fair use. Trademark protects a brand for sale. If you have nothing for sale, *you have no basis for a trademark*.

I get you don't want to overexcite yourself and don't want to prematurely believe something is happening. Don't attempt to brush away actual legal circumstances, however.

True. There was no need for even a renewal yet. The only time such an updated trademark for golden sun happened in this way was back then when DD happened. And we know Trademarks are done or protecting the brand, so it never had anything to do with smash, that would have been a copyright instead if anything.

I'm spreading the hype up again (2 parts tweet), because I certainly think it's worth it. This has money involved, so it definitely isn't done for nothing, NoJ doesn't do that type of thing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm pretty sure like, literally every franchise was trademarked tho and were both applied and registered for. It was all around the pre-release period of Smash Ultimate. So wouldn't this all be done for Smash? As in, whatever trademark had to do with whatever AT, Mii Costume, or Spirit the franchise had. Technically, their involvement in Smash would warrant "being for sale" because it's part of a commercial product. This applies to F-Zero, Sin & Punishment, Style Savvy, Rhythm Heaven, and a bunch others.

By that logic, would that mean every franchise that was trademarked has a new game coming out or something? Prob unlikely. It's all i'm saying.

It wasn't Team Ninja, it was Koei Tecmo (the company that made Ninja Gaiden), the game shares FE Warriors' engine.

It was Koei Tecmo yeah. Though most key directors and producers were involved with the development of that game so yeah. Then there's the other part of IntSys doing FEH as well. I just hope they have enough time for AW sooner or later.

 

[Nazyrus]

I'm pretty sure like, literally every franchise was trademarked tho and were both applied and registered for. It was all around the pre-release period of Smash Ultimate. So wouldn't this all be done for Smash? As in, whatever trademark had to do with whatever AT, Mii Costume, or Spirit the franchise had. Technically, their involvement in Smash would warrant "being for sale" because it's part of a commercial product. This applies to F-Zero, Sin & Punishment, Style Savvy, Rhythm Heaven, and a bunch others.

By that logic, would that mean every franchise that was trademarked has a new game coming out or something? Prob unlikely. It's all i'm saying.

I invite to re-read the very solid part where it's explained why Trademarks are used truly for, and what copyrights are used for. For something like just digital content in a game like smash, trademark aren't what they spend money on, it's the copyrights. With Trademark, NoJ is protecting the whole brand for further use, and let's not forget all the content this particular trademark got, all the added categories in both hardware and software. This isn't really the exact same situation with other franchises. This wasn't even renewed, this was a complete new trademark with WAY too much new categories added and only one time has happened like this for GS before… DD.

NessAtc. can definitely explain this better than I do, I'm pretty sure he has explained it before here and people just ignored it due to generalizing. He has the credit for keeping track on this research, I'm just trying to spread the word around because it is indeed leading to something based on the facts and evolution of the trademark.

 

[FlawedAI]

I'm pretty sure like, literally every franchise was trademarked tho and were both applied and registered for. It was all around the pre-release period of Smash Ultimate. So wouldn't this all be done for Smash? As in, whatever trademark had to do with whatever AT, Mii Costume, or Spirit the franchise had. Technically, their involvement in Smash would warrant "being for sale" because it's part of a commercial product. This applies to F-Zero, Sin & Punishment, Style Savvy, Rhythm Heaven, and a bunch others.

By that logic, would that mean every franchise that was trademarked has a new game coming out or something? Prob unlikely. It's all i'm saying.

If I remember correctly, Golden Sun's was the only one that was updated to cover Switch games. Not to mention, the trademark wasn't due for renewal for at least one more year, and Nintendo likes to hold on as long as they can.

Plus, I think appearing in Smash is a little different, because you're selling something under the "Smash Bros." trademark, not necessarily under the "Golden Sun" trademark. If Isaac becomes available for sale, then the "Golden Sun" trademark would be needed, like how each character has trademark/copyright info.

 

[NessAtc.]

Aside from that, while there are other franchises like Sin and Punishment and Disaster Day of Crisis that also received trademarks, there are also franchises that didn't, like Custom Robo, Clu Clu Land, Yuyuki, and Tomato Adventure. If it was all for Smash, those would have gotten trademarks as well.

 

[SonicLink125]

I’m kind of surprised that more people aren’t talking about this whole thing going on with Golden Sun. Guess they’re too busy trying to figure out who FP5 is, which I don’t blame them. Haha.
But if it miraculously turned out to be Isaac to promote Golden Sun, I might die of dehydration for crying tears of joy too much. Lol

 

[clearandsweet]

Chiming in here for the copyright. Looked into it a bit (wrote this) but I'm no IP lawyer. TL;DR - Results inconclusive.

Positives

• Don't need one for Smash content or re-releases like the Wii U VC. Many didn't have one.
• You need something to prove you're using that thing, can't file for air.
• The filing was not a renewal.
• Was filed for 09 and nothing else (09 is single player video game - no online components, e.g. BotW, Mario Odyssey). They've been using solo 09 for all new single player Switch games.

Negatives

• There was no filing for 黄金の太陽... but then again there never was a 09 filing for this for the first Golden Sun, even though it was on the JP box. Only 28, more general games and LCD displays. Again, who the hell knows why. Also was never one for TLA for this.
• Mario Sluggers, Wrecking Crew, F-Zero, ect all have similar approved 09 fillings. Then again, so did Metroid and Animal Crossing, so *shrug*.
• How much you need to show, I have no idea.
• "Downsizing" trademarks possibility - type in MARIOSUPERSLUGGERS here and riddle me why the older filing is seemingly 6 months expired and the new one only for 09. Again, we'd need context from the renewal process and JP TM law to even say what is going on here, but the new Golden Sun TM was filed along side it and the Lost Age TM expires in December.

Others

• Japan actually doesn't differentiate between trademark and copyright. This is not relevant to Golden Sun, but it is interesting.

Same as last year when we first heard about it, same as when it got approved. Could be a new Switch game, absolutely. Could be something we don't understand.

 

[SonicLink125]

Speaking of trademarks/copyrights...

pic.twitter.com/f3WKx3iXOz

— Golden Sun Shitposts (@GS_Shitposts) December 10, 2019

 

[Nazyrus]

Aside from that, while there are other franchises like Sin and Punishment and Disaster Day of Crisis that also received trademarks, there are also franchises that didn't, like Custom Robo, Clu Clu Land, Yuyuki, and Tomato Adventure. If it was all for Smash, those would have gotten trademarks as well.

THIS ^^^
Just by mentioning something like Custom robo the whole belief of every other trademark being "the same case" falls apart, lol. This kind of thing has details, and the devil is in the details, and thanks to actually paying attention to them and learning how this thing between trademarks and copyrights work (and the time they happen) is what makes all the difference. Some people just refuse to learn and understand in spite of being in denial or not wanting to get hopes up, but this is literally money being spent by a company to protect a brand which only happens if they got something to sell for that brand, it's as simple as that, it's not even a theory, it's a freaking matter of when at this point, now that the trademark exists and is finally approved this last month. Of course we don't know when but the fact that it's happening at some point should be reason enough to get hyped, it's better than seeing the brand be totally dead and not even planned for further use.

 

[THE 6r]

Man, how many times have we been back to the trademark in the past year (yes, it's been that long now. Time sure does fly) in this thread? Clearly they at least WANT to do something with it, yet nothing ever seems to get announced despite being months since the trademark was filed.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Man, how many times have we been back to the trademark in the past year (yes, it's been that long now. Time sure does fly) in this thread? Clearly they at least WANT to do something with it, yet nothing ever seems to get announced despite being months since the trademark was filed.

Well games take time to make my friend

 

[N3ON]

I find it hard to invest too heavily in any theory which, by its own logic, suggests that Disaster Day of Crisis will receive renewed attention.

And, for that matter, S&P, the final instalment of which having been a historic bomb, and the dev being a shell of its former self.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Weren't trademarks for Rhythm Heaven and Super Mario Slugger filed alongside Golden Sun?

I can see a new Rhythm Heaven but are people really expecting a new Mario Slugger game?

As for Wrecking Crew, I assume they'd need to renew the trademark to include it in the nes online library? (I mean I don't really see a new Wrecking Crew game happening either)

 

[KoopaSaki]

I might as well bring this up as it’s something we might need to be aware of. Say Sakurai is able to upgrade ATs and in order for Isaac to become playable, would that mean Waluigi would have to get upgraded first?

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I might as well bring this up as it’s something we might need to be aware of. Say Sakurai is able to upgrade ATs and in order for Isaac to become playable, would that mean Waluigi would have to get upgraded first?

Waluigi is the most likely and he is the one who got the most media coverage but he doesn't necessarily need to come first. Isaac represents a series lacking a playable character and his promotion could potentially be tied into a new game so there's that to consider. Whether Waluigi gets in or not has little effect on that

 

[Pinguino21v]

I might as well bring this up as it’s something we might need to be aware of. Say Sakurai is able to upgrade ATs and in order for Isaac to become playable, would that mean Waluigi would have to get upgraded first?

If there ever is assist trophy promotion, I strongly believe it will be between Waluigi and Isaac.
Waluigi is more known and recognizable.
Isaac would bring a new serie as playable.
Between the two, I don't know which one would be first, and even less if the second one would get upgraded too. Here's hoping.

 

[Spatulo]

How have I never posted here. Hi everybody! I got introduced to Golden Sun by people hyping Isaac up back in the Brawl days and first played Dark Dawn (great place to start I know, but tbh I live that game) and eventually played the rest of the series on the Wii U. With a second round of DLC I think there’s a good chance Isaac could finally break out of snow globe hell

If there ever is assist trophy promotion, I strongly believe it will be between Waluigi and Isaac.
Waluigi is more known and recognizable.
Isaac would bring a new serie as playable.
Between the two, I don't know which one would be first, and even less if the second one would get upgraded too. Here's hoping.

I agree with this, especially after the fallout from the reveal of Isaac’s AT. Isaac and the Wah seem like the most likely upgrades in the AT cast (*sheds a tear for Bomberman*), and if they wanted they could totally swap Isaac out for Felix or Matthew if they wanted to keep the AT itself

 

[Bassoonist]

If it is Kos-Mos, I am completely indifferent. Haven't played Xenosaga and actually pulled every other blade BUT her in XC2 (Finch for Smash). I guess it makes sense with Sakurai saying in the latest showcase something about Bamco employees knowing their company's characters. I guess it's slightly bad that it's another JRPG character. I just can't imagine revealing her at the Game Awards would be very hype.

It would be kind of grim after that though. Only four other characters throughout all 2020? The other leak PapaGenos pulls up that calls Kos-Mos had Ryu Hayabusa and Reimu, both of which are third-party again and not what we're asking for, nor big fan requests.

Big oof.

Random third parties that few people asked for have been the bulk of Ultimate's DLC, so I don't know why anyone has too much hope of it changing. It's just par for the course at this point. I don't know why a Nintendo property doesn't want to focus on Nintendo franchises (or even third party franchises that are at least relevant to Nintendo), but what can you do?

I think that if we Golden Sun fans have any hope, it would come from the trademarks (which could easily mean nothing sadly). I don't think Isaac is at all in the running for Ultimate's DLC, sorry to say. So we really have to hope that the franchise is going to get revived and we have to hope for it to be more successful than Dark Dawn, or Isaac will get completely neglected once again in the next SSB.

 

[NessAtc.]

I find it hard to invest too heavily in any theory which, by its own logic, suggests that Disaster Day of Crisis will receive renewed attention.

And, for that matter, S&P, the final instalment of which having been a historic bomb, and the dev being a shell of its former self.

Disaster is a Monolith-developed game, so I could easily see a port of it, especially considering Famicom Detective Club of all things is getting a remake, plus Disaster never actually did get localized in America because Reggie disliked the game. Remember, the trademark can be for any commercial product as long as the brand name is explicitly tied to said product. The category 9 applied to each just makes it for a single player game.

As for Treasure, while it's true they have not had a new major release since Gaist Crusher, it's not like they can stay this way forever either. They just put out an Ikaruga port last May, so the chances of a S&P remake or just a port with SS are honestly decent all things considered. The only reason I doubt the GS trademark means a port is because Hiroyuki Takahashi stated that he left Tennis Aces' dev team in December 2017, so if the project was anything less than a new game, we should have seen it by now.

 

[Kalaam]

It's true that it has been over a year and a half since the release of Mario Tennis Aces.
And there is still nothing from Camelot OR the support team from Nintendo who works with them (team 2 I think it was)

 

[FlawedAI]

It's true that it has been over a year and a half since the release of Mario Tennis Aces.
And there is still nothing from Camelot OR the support team from Nintendo who works with them (team 2 I think it was)

Not to mention, it's quite likely that Camelot brought in outside help in they were to make a new Golden Sun, since most of their RPG staff has left. Companies like Monolith, Bandai, and Square all have teams specifically for support, and each have experience with RPGs. Even if Camelot was developing something all on their own, it's been a year and a half since Mario Tennis Aces was released. That's more than enough time to put together something presentable, even if the game is a while off, and especially if the game is a remake, like we speculate it to be.

 

[THE 6r]

It's true that it has been over a year and a half since the release of Mario Tennis Aces.
And there is still nothing from Camelot OR the support team from Nintendo who works with them (team 2 I think it was)

As I mentioned earlier, this break between games is one of the longest in the company's history, so something must be up.

 

[Deleted member]

As I mentioned earlier, this break between games is one of the longest in the company's history, so something must be up.

We're getting Mario Golf Slice!

What? You gotta temper your expectations as low as possible, but on the plus side, it's not like Nintendo is badgering them to make a damn sports game every year or two. That crap was what helped get Alphadream killed with the frequent Mario & Luigi games of diminishing returns.

 

[ZelDan]

As I mentioned earlier, this break between games is one of the longest in the company's history, so something must be up.

they must be making one hell of a big, ambitious Mario sports game!

 

[Deleted member]

TBF, I think we're much better at this whole (not believing leakers thing" ever since the Grinch debacle, so this was to be expected.

I got so burned by the Grinch Leak last year even though we have gotten Banjo & Kazooie eventually, I can't buy anything regarding Smash Bros. ever again until it was actually revealed firsthand. The only way I'll believe a leak off-hand from other games is if elements of a leak are revealed and things begin falling into place as time goes on, much as how Pokémon Sword & Shield was leaked (I really need to look at the thesaurus) earlier in the year, but when it comes to something like Smash Bros., I can just as easily pull something out of my butt and say this Thursday, the Wumpus from "Hunt the Wumpus" will be the 5th character revealed.

 

[SonicLink125]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Just realized Isaac’s walk lasted a week. Lol I wonder if he’ll be able to make it to NYC in time this Thursday? ;D

 

[Kalaam]

Isaac always had good legs.

 

[Qeomash]

Isaac always had good legs.

And Matthew is like like 3/4 legs.

 

[Kalaam]

Because he's still growing.
And he's got his mom's legs.

 

[SonicLink125]

A Golden Sun fan’s first internet experience. pic.twitter.com/rl04YAZxHV

— Golden Sun Shitposts (@GS_Shitposts) December 11, 2019

Golden Sun brings people together. No matter how far they are. I can’t wait for this series to come back one day!

 

[DogManStar]

You know, Golden Sun and Advance Wars both coming within the next year or two almost sounds too good to be true, but it's starting to make sense. If we get both in Smash somehow, I think that would be absolute peak hype for me personally