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Given that information, I can’t help but wonder if all that golden sun content we got in the game along with the Isaac AT getting new attacks came from the ballot directly. Additionally I now changed my smashtag to Isaac officially so I’m now jumping back into the competitive smash scene after a short hiatus due to college.
I am almost completely convinced that Isaac did do well in the ballot. As evident to all the GS content we actually got in Smash Ultimate, Isaac must have been pretty close. If not, definitely in the top 5 or 10. I’d dare say we were close. Only shadowed by K. Rool (who should have been in Smash since Melee/Brawl) and a few others. Then there’s apparently the problem of not having a recent game. That is still BS to me as Xenoblade and Dark Dawn came out at the same year and Shulk got in while almost all GS content was non existent in Smash 4.
While I agree with most of your post, I did want to address this. Dark Dawn was a disappointing revival attempt that had a huge drop off of sales from its predecessors while Xenoblade was showing good success and had solid plans for future games, it's an apples to oranges scenario.
I'm gonna have to disagree here: while Dark Dawn didn't do quite as well as Nintendo wanted it too, it still did pretty well for a game released on a dying console in a series without an entry for 7 years. In fact, if VGChartz is to be believed (meaning take this with a grain of salt), Dark Dawn only sold about 100,000 less than Xenoblade 1, which is still damn good. The reason Shulk got in while Isaac did not is simple: Sakurai bias. Sakurai enjoyed Xenoblade a lot. We know he did. Meaning he already has the attachment to Shulk, and that came at the cost of Golden Sun.
For the sake of comparison, Wario Ware got almost nothing new in Ultimate besides spirits, as a possible response to the sales failure of Game & Wario. Lulu and 13-Amp didn't even show up anywhere in this game, despite the fact that most WW spirits use art from Gold.
I don't know if it'd be too taxing. It can be as simple as "the game flopped, let's cut down the representation a little". Do remember that Sakurai actually does consider relevancy as is. As well as "if the character is likely to have a future". Dark Dawn was a commercial flop, so maybe Isaac didn't have a future enough for a spot. And Xenoblade was a commercial success, giving Shulk a spot. They aren't related to each other, sure, but it's a mere coincidence. And makes sense.
It's possible the Gold artwork was added at the last minute. The Gamer stage wasn't changed to reflect Gold's version of the minigame despite the WW Gold character stickers.
Yet a DD song was still put in. If he did lose faith in GS, it seems weird to allow that.
I prefer to use "dormant". A dead series is one that literally has no future, as in the publisher as confirmed zero intentions of ever making a new one. (Or something like Metal Gear where the creator leaves the company owning the rights.) Golden Sun is much more dormant right now, since Camelot seems to be increasingly referencing it, and Isaac's popularity in the ballot must have helped.
Nah, just throwing something in from the latest game isn't that odd.
I agree to an extent, but I do think that Isaac not getting in this time around is more because there were simply higher priorities at the time of smash ultimate's development. Given that King K Rool (last appearance in Mario Sluggers; considered a "irrelevant character" during smash 4 dlc cycle by various communities ) more than likely won the ballot, I feel more development time was allocated into making him into a playable character. Then there's Ridley whom Sakurai wanted to put in as a playable character, but did not know how to implement him into the game until Ultimate given his size. Given that Ultimate's selling point is "everyone is here," I think Sakurai was able to reestablish better terms with Konami and added Simon Belmont given that he is a gaming icon and his performance on the ballot. Then there are echoes such as Chrom and Dark Samus, characters who were also requested and were easier to implement. I think Isabelle also fits into this niche and given how her series is still active, she likely was easier to implement. Now Incineroar was added with the lack of the ballot, but Sakurai did mention that he intentionally saved a spot for a Gen 6 final evolution starter so it makes sense how he had more priority altogether. With all this combined, I think Isaac's exclusion from the base roster was simply because he had lower priority to make it in compared to other contenders (who'd otherwise take more development time), but did well enough on the ballot to the point his series got arguably the most representation for one without a playable rep.
If Nintendo calls it a commercial flop, who decide whether the series continues or not, it's best to accept it flopped. It either hits their goal, or it doesn't. I'm not saying the goal is fair to make, but that's already what it is.
Honestly, nothing changed for Isaac. He was still a series with no seeable future. That makes him automatically lower priority.
Well, in the Japanese version of Mario Tennis Aces, some desert area is called the Sol Sanctum, which the localization team failed to carry over to the States, it seems. (Here) Not to mention, they seem to be mentioning GS in interviews more often now (also seen in that link). It's more than the series has seen in many, many years, and this along with the trademark renewals are what make people unsure of the series' future. It's these things that make this series dormant, rather than dead. The developer directly referencing the series within another is something that gets the rumor mills started. I think it means something, but others don't, so it's not a guarantee by any stretch of the word.
Though my other point stands that it having an unforeseeable future hurt Isaac's chances a lot. And ah, thanks for the information on Camelot's references.
There is multiple winners. Sakurai said so. Just let that go. It was a suggestion box anyway. King K. Rool, Ridley, Simon, and Richter all won the ballot because they were chosen due to the ballot. It's not rocket science. Ridley wouldn't have made it either or either of the Belmonts. They were all in the same category entirely. People are way overstating how hard King K. Rool had to fight to get in. He didn't fight anymore than the other 3. Again, it wasn't some big "one winner contest". The whole point was that multiple characters could be chosen. It's even specified that "the suggestions would be used for future games". They're all winners officially. And anybody else chosen for any role due to it are winners. This is most likely why Golden Sun got tons of content and why Isaac is back, so he's a winner too in some way.
I disagree considering that there is evidence to suggest that King K Rool indeed won the ballot., and no I will not think that people should stop the "won the ballot" point going on when there is important information that cannot be ignored. I think it's ridiculous to so much as insinuate that other characters, such as Dark Samus and Chrom, "won" the ballot given that they are echoes and more than likely were easier to implement as characters such as Ridley or K Rool took more development time. Namely the various polls combined onto the google spreadsheet that combined global data across various regions, particularly in areas such as the United States, Japan, and Europe. The metrics of the poll further elaborate how it went about polling for various contenders to make sure said characters were in fact requested well across and were consistently requested, potentially removing sampling bias and making the results more generalizable to said locations. Not to mention that the poll had a very decent sample size to go off from ( over 44,000 votes) and furthers adds onto its validity. Let's not forget that various sources like Source Gaming have come across and cited that Bayonetta was in fact chosen two weeks into the ballot itself, using assets from Zero Suit Samus and Ike with data supporting this (she did have relatively a decent amount of votes which I acknowledge and was a top contender, someone who was realizable at the time). Add that into King K Rool getting a mii fighter costume shortly before the "winner" of the ballot was decided, which more than likely was a consolation prize. Like I said I do agree to an extent that Isaac not being relevant is part of the reason why he was not in smash 4, but at the same time I do not think the lack of sales compared to the first two series is why he was excluded. I mentioned Sin and Punishment for a reason, and arguably sales from that series were lackluster compared to Golden Sun and I doubt it is more relevant compared to Golden Sun as a whole (as a matter of fact it is in a similar boat in terms of relevancy given its last title was around 2010 like Dark Dawn). Sakurai did base Kid Icarus' game mechanics after all on SIn and Punishment, so I can see why Saki's assist trophy was kept at the time. Veterans such as Wolf also had decent amounts of votes, but I do not think they even needed the ballot given that one of Ultimate's selling point was every playable character ever would return into this entry. At the end of the day I think Isaac more than likely had enough votes from the ballot to at least have the most amount of content for a series that lacked a playable rep.
Yeah, Dark Dawn's failure in Nintendo's eyes probably hurt Isaac's chances quite a bit. I won't deny Dark Dawn made the future of the franchise a lot more shaky.
SourceGaming doesn't have the real results at all. That is not evidence. That's just fan polls.
They got in mainly due to the ballot. That's the point. They. All. Won. There is no need for pointless conspiracy theories. We know the facts. The ballot is the reason he chose them.
I think you are ignoring the metrics they went about conducting their polls, simply dismissing them because they are "fan made." I did not even use source gaming for the ballot results, but rather just to state a source for data for Bayo that was implemented two weeks into the ballot. Not even with the google docs have I claimed that the data used is 100 % accurate, but you are dismissing it entirely as being "fan based" when in fact that the data compiled is global and is done so to avoid inconsistencies, namely to increase its validity and make it more generalizable ( and given a sample size of over 44,000 this is definitely not to be ignored). If we go and simply list data off as being " fan made" and simply not "real results" without so much as considering the statistics and the like behind it, then any survey data can be ruled off as being insignificant with the parameters you have established. I think you are putting way too much stock in what Sakurai said in terms of the roster. Not that I said those characters did not have any ballot backing (as a matter of fact characters like Simon did have a decent amount of votes), but they were also at the end of the day higher priority compared to Isaac under various circumstances ( ballot winner with the most amounts of votes, easier to implement echoes, characters that Sakurai was meaning to put in but had problems with due to size, etc). At the end of the day, neither of us know exactly how it went about, but research into the topic does show there's significant data that cannot be ignored.
You could still argue that the timing was bad for 4 in the sense that, had DD been pushed back to the early part of the 3DS's lifetime, it would have sold much better and it also would've been even more lined up with the project plan's timeline. People have covered this to quite a large degree in this thread.
With K. Rool it seems that placing first in the ballot did matter. Placing anything else other than first just put you into a bushel of berries to maybe, just maybe, be picked at Sakurai's whim.
Aside from K. Rool, who was probably the winner, yeah. The rest was probably Sak mining for the gems he valued the most and throwing the rest into non-playable content.
Idk if you can claim that. There are plenty of documented reasons why Ridley and the Belmonts were gonna be added without considering the ballot itself.
Do you have the source for this? I couldn't find it with a quick search.
You're missing the point even then.
It got content, so it wasn't all that bad.
Yeah, it kind of does. "They were chosen because of the ballot." It's the primary reason.
Or more like the top voters all got chosen if they were from a currently relevant series.
Yeah, nothing suggests he placed first. People need to let that go. We only have any proper evidence that Bayonetta placed first... in one region. Rest is loose information that only gives a small indication of a possibility. But enough hard information.
Nope. It was more those games were not relevant and put in lower priority. Veterans got their own sections.
You mean fan reasons? That's meaningless. Sakurai's thoughts are the only ones that matter in the end. He chose them due to the ballot as the main reason spoken. He's said this before.
https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1087124989239734272 Do note the interview hasn't been translated, but they were indeed all ballot picks. "They were added due to the ballot." Kind of can't get more clear than that, honestly.
Could we stop with these conspiracy theories? No, there was no misinterpretation. It was Castlevania stuff people wanted in general. It got a crapload of votes. Sakurai knew what series was wanted. He wasn't sure who to add in at all. He considered Alucard, but wanted the protagonists, and had them split up for each region's favorite. This still makes it due to the ballot. You can pretty much say all the Castlevania content is due to the ballot. This is his reason. There is no real evidence to suggest he'd add them otherwise. Also, this is too much hindsight bias. He hasn't confirmed the veterans were brought back due to the ballot(though that's probably the case), or anyone besides 4 specific characters. He has given zero information on Echoes, so that should easily confirm 2 more ballot picks(since what else could fan demand feasibly be?).
Well I never once said that the ballot alone was used entirely for picking out characters, even mentioning exceptions such as Ken and Incineroar. You're just creating a straw man there when I have been arguing how the data from the ballot cannot be ignored in regards to selecting certain characters. After all, characters like Ken and Incineroar (lacked ballot support) were added in exception to the ballot. The ballot alone was not used to determine a character's entry into the roster alone (was a criteria of course), as I also mentioned that various characters have different priorities. I mentioned how King K Rool was selected more so because he had the most amount of votes based on the data compiled from various polls (and can be argued that he was the true winner), and this further adds on to how the ballot's premise is to also use the information compiled to later determine characters in future entries. And even then I highly disagree on that front in regards for it being a mere suggestion box. I don't think it was just a mere suggestion and think you are putting more stock into what Sakurai is saying while ignoring statistically significant data data. Sakurai worked with what he could for smash 4. He at least picked Bayo as the most realizable character from the contenders that were in fact realizable. This is a known fact from what was stated in the Winter 2015 smash direct. The fact that King K Rool, a character that was long considered to be "dead", was added as a mere consolation prize as a mii costume further adds onto this. There was no reason to add K.Rool ( a character that did not have an appearance since the 2008 Mario Sluggards game) as a mii costume if that meant the ballot alone was meant as nothing more than a suggestion considering Bayonetta was the top contender of "realizable characters" from the data compiled.
It's loose data that doesn't reflect every single person. It's somewhat useful, but won't get us perfect results.
Hmm, well like I said I do agree with certain points you had like the ballot not being a means to an end. Sakurai never once said he'd choose the "winner," but I do think it's more than a suggestion box when it comes to characters like King K Rool and Bayonetta, and the amount of content Golden Sun gotten. I think we can at least agree to disagree on that. Also I did acknowledge that Sakurai does add new characters, just it's more so the timing that matters. Hence why Inklings were added later into the base in ultimate. What I meant to say was that he wouldn't add a new character from a new ip later into the developmental cycle (especially when the roster was picked out in 2015), which is why Sakurai left Spring Man more so as an assist.
That's what I meant by the new IP bit. We just said the same thing weirdly. I honestly think it was all a suggestion box, though. Main reason is Sakurai actually saying he doesn't base his decisions on popularity alone, as that's only part of the full picture. Though I do think Ridley needed the ballot to justify him doing that much work on the character, that's a matter of opinion. Right now, there's no reason to believe otherwise, as we only have one thing said "Ridley was chosen because of the ballot". But this becomes more hindsight. It's possible he could've gotten in without it, but as of now, he did get in due to it. That's pretty much a hard statement, so no reason to believe otherwise. Hypotheticals are neat, but sometimes are unnecessary.
Appreciated. So I agree to disagree, or you could say I agree to move on.
Fair enough. We both move on hahaThat's what I meant by the new IP bit. We just said the same thing weirdly. I honestly think it was all a suggestion box, though. Main reason is Sakurai actually saying he doesn't base his decisions on popularity alone, as that's only part of the full picture. Though I do think Ridley needed the ballot to justify him doing that much work on the character, that's a matter of opinion. Right now, there's no reason to believe otherwise, as we only have one thing said "Ridley was chosen because of the ballot". But this becomes more hindsight. It's possible he could've gotten in without it, but as of now, he did get in due to it. That's pretty much a hard statement, so no reason to believe otherwise. Hypotheticals are neat, but sometimes are unnecessary.
Appreciated. So I agree to disagree, or you could say I agree to move on.
One song is almost nothing. But yeah, considering that DD didn't do too great it wasn't all bad.
That's just an inaccuracy. Plenty of characters from "relevant series" like Bandana Dee and Waluigi got skipped over. Besides, giving special treatment to characters who fit into Nintendo's marketing plan and/or are vets (who were added back as part of a marketing gimmick as well) undermines the point of a ballot or suggestion box or whatever you wanna call it.
Barely anything suggests that he didn't place first...
Again, stuff like Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Ashley, Dixie Kong, and perhaps Rayman, could be considered "relevant," for varying reasons.
Real reasons, like Ridley being an incredibly recognizeable and iconic character, or Konami already being on board for Snake and Castlevania being a well-known IP.
That's still pretty nebulous, given how they justified Bayo as a "ballot character." It gives no information regarding exactly how well they did. And as I've said many times before, a statement like this doesn't change the large amount of evidence that suggests characters like the Belmonts were cherry-picked from a host of other viable choices. If Sakurai says that it's due to the ballot, then there's likely some major cases of confirmation bias and/or using controversial reasonings to eliminate certain candidates.
The goal isn't to come up with some grand conspiracy theory. Idk if I've explained myself poorly or what, but I've tried to justify what I've said. What would be the point of making up a conspiracy theory? To make it easier to be angry and call it justified? This is a video game with fictional characters; I'm not angry or personally hurt about anything Sakurai did, perhaps just a bit confused. There's just certain explanations for the way things went down that make a great deal of sense to me, and I'm explaining why they make sense. Dismissing it as a conspiracy theory is just a silly way to write off the argument. Sakurai has given statements about most of the newcomers; I don't think he's lying or trying to fudge the truth, but in certain cases I think he's either not telling the entire story or I just disagree with his reasoning for including the character. Remember that we're just as interested in what didn't make it into the game as we are what did. If a number of characters with significantly higher vote totals than Simon were removed from consideration for reasons that I don't view as valid, then I'm not gonna call Simon a ballot character, even if Sakurai might.
My point exactly. It was lame, but a flop of a game getting little makes sense. And I like the game, bar the points of no return(I want all my Djinn, damnit!)
Nobody was chosen for some marketing scheme. At all. Come on, man. Vets were given special treatment for the fans, because they miss them. Sakurai has made that clear he doesn't like cuts.
Netflix Castlevania exists. So do the Pinball games. It's been kept relevant for a long time.
Bayonetta says sup. Who did score number 1 in Europe. And top 5 in the US. It's very possible she is the closest thing to the "true winner"(as irrelevant as it is) as youc an get.
Rayman is also 3rd party, but has to battle with the more known Rabbids as well. Both are in as Spirits, so maybe there was no easy choice in that regard. Dixie Kong may still be a "tag team only" character for Sakurai, making her not an option easily. He seems to never view Waluigi as more than a good AT. Who knows on the others. I don't believe in the Sakurai Kirby Bias myself, mind you.
Or cause the ballot helped influence it. That's a real reason too. The reality is, tons of reasons happening. Quotas, votes, characters' own merits... You didn't think Zero Suit Samus got considered due to her own merits, did you? No. Her reason was "I wanted another Metroid rep." Her being a pretty important part to Samus absolutely helped, imo, but that was never a reason given.
Or there's no confirmation bias and you're just looking for something that isn't there. There's no legitimate evidence that the Belmonts were cherry-picked. Because you're looking at it the entirely wrong way. They weren't cherry-picked among the votes at all. It was the content all around Castlevania that got votes. Which is basically what he means when he says [Castlevania]. He chose those two for a unique reason, because he thinks they both are the best way to represent the series as a playable character, with one who is popular in the East, and one who is popular in the West. That's the part that wasn't strictly due to the ballot. It's why he only otherwise considered Alucard. The ballot still played a pivotal role. Konami being onboard isn't going to make Sakurai immediately go for those two. He needs a push first. When he says the ballot played that role, it's pretty clear... that is what it is. Again, he has many different reasons for doing stuff. Some is just fan demand due to what is pretty much a simple suggestion box. It's not everything, but Ultimate definitely used it for multiple characters. What I don't get is why you're trying to deny these facts at this point. They are the facts. Of course he could've considered some of these characters without the ballot. It's just the fact he didn't. That's all it means.
You shouldn't be confused. A series got a ton of popularity votes. He chose two characters due to that. Simon and Richter. That's literally what happened. The reasoning behind it is factual. You don't like that the ballot heavily influenced multiple characters and that's fine. But you're trying to justify why it's impossible, when again, that's not how the ballot worked. It got tons of winners.
I can. It's a hugely relevant and ongoing series spanning multiple systems, with tons of characters and lore, based upon the infamous Dracula. It's not that hard to see. There's no hindsight bias. Castlevania is a severely huge series. People know it and recognize it. Honestly, why is it so hard to get that Castlevania got a crapload of votes. It's literally even admitted by the man himself. This was why it got in. Leaks didn't mean much to begin with either.[/quote]
Characters absolutely were chosen for marketing. Take Incineroar as an example.
Come on, that doesn't make it very "relevant" at all in the sense we're discussing. Plus having to use stuff other than mainline games to justify it's relevance severely undermines your argument.
It takes guts to suggest that Bayo was more popular than K. Rool on the ballot. That's a real straw-grasp right there. Besides, I really don't think 1st in EU and 5th in US is anywhere close to enough to take down the juggernaut that is K. Rool.
Most of those are pretty bad reasons to exclude a character. If Sakurai can't see Dixie as anything but one half of a tag team or Waluigi as anything but an AT, he's probably not the man for the job he has. Moreover, the attempt to write off all these characters shows how many hoops you have to jump through to get to Castlevania. Maybe one or two weren't feasible, but there's a lot of fanagling that needs to be done to eliminate so many quality choices.
Idk, I hope this doesn't sound rude cuz that's not the intention, but you're the one dismissing the only evidence we have as unreliable. I've acknowledged that other Castlevania characters had votes, but then gone on to explain that these votes made up a relatively small portion compared to those of Simon specifically, meaning that they are likely not enough to overcome a sufficient number of other characters in votes. Besides, you're dismissing Rayman in part because of the existence of the Rabbids, but why not combine their votes like Castlevania? Maybe that's a bad example, but maybe they also see the votes for K. Rool and the votes for Dixie and combine those, too. What can be combined and what can't? It's a bit sketchy in some respects.
It doesn't matter much how many votes Castelvania got if they had to dismiss other stuff that was ranked way higher in order to reach it.
Those things don't necessarily translate into votes on the ballot, though. A lot of the same can be said for something like Halo and I don't think Master Chief had that many votes. Pre-Verge, many people didn't think Castlevania was feasible, especially without knowing Snake was back. Plenty of really iconic and relevant franchises did poorly on the ballot. Those things you listed, if anything, are reasons that Castlevania would've been likely without the ballot.
Kalaam
said, get your suggestions to Death Battle so they can maybe one day consider doing an episode with him. How cool would it be if we could have an animated fight sequence with Isaac against another character. I made a tweet about it just now. Who do you guys think would be worthy of an opponent?Suggestions for @DEATHBATTLE are being taken for future episodes. Having Isaac appear and demonstrating his skillset in battle would be awesome
— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) February 5, 2019
Make your suggestions in the link provided and let us know your choices for his potential opponenthttps://t.co/VhMwYvCzvH #goldensun pic.twitter.com/ofya0BbdW4
Yep, I went with the exact same haha. They have a lot of parallels, like you mentioned, and would both be make for great Smash characters.
