Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Diddy Kong]

With all things considered , the Dark Dawn ending was really frustrating. There's good things about the game tho! The battle system for once, has improved a lot. Overworld Psynergy is improved, so are the puzzles. Those are big improvements in my opinion.

There's some bad stuff too. Yeah points or no return, that's obvious. But what frustrated me, outside the ending hyping a sequel that hadn't yet happened, is how the world is so massively changed. Sometimes it doesn't feel like the Weyard of the GBA games. All of a sudden, ancient civilizations pop up everywhere, which where supposedly always there. But the gripe is, you basically travel the whole world in TLA.

Not that all of Weyard was filled in TLA, it wasn't. The first part of the game , the map feels huge. The second part, leading towards Jupiter Lighthouse, there's significantly less towns and places to travel to.

That being said, I still think TLA was the best Golden Sun game. The first game, the Broken Seal comes closely after. Dark Dawn ranks last because it's just a bit too different, with strange design choices.

 

[Kalaam]

Tbh I feel like the "ancient civilisation" argument is overused.
We know the world would expend after the Golden Sun, and it makes sense that doing so some ruins would be revealed. You could theorize that some bits or even full cities or building that fell in the Gaia Fall will just rise back from it (though empty). Or some that were swallowed by the earth while Weyard was shrinking.
Most of them also make sense. Sure they weren't introduced before, but they weren't relevant to the story so why ? In Harry Potter you don't know about anything that isn't relevant to the story until it is. (like how a house could get hidden between two others, that tents can be Tardis etc).
Some could have been hinted at, like with Kaocho and Sana.

Spoiler: DD plotpoint spoilers

Could have dropped some dialogues in TBS about some noble families in Xian's region that were starting to amass wealth/power and were looking to expand. But you can guess that is where they came from, maybe it was already a kingdom then.
As for Belinsk, when your workers are beastmen, I wouldn't be surprised they could build that town from existing ruins in a dozen of years either. In periods of change, war etc, dynasties and all change very quickly. So that they started their countries, got warred on and turned slaves, then freed and established their independance in 30 years is not that farfetched to me. Look at our own history, we had stuff like that happening too, sometime waaaayyyy faster.

 

[ZelDan]

Yeah, I don't think the whole civilizations argument really works.

The way I see it, the overworld maps in the first 2 GS games is meant to be a "rough estimate" or "general take" on what Weyard's geography is like, not a complete 100% realization of what Weyard's world would like like with literally every town, locale, nook and cranny. Whatever civilizations are found in DD could have always existed, but we never saw them just because they were never relavant to the story, and because there manybe wasn't enough room to go crazy on optional content.

Realistically, there probably would be hundreds or various different towns, villages, cities, ruins, temples etc. on Weyard and not just 30ish or however many there exactly are between the two GBA games.

 

[Kalaam]

Remember the Shaman village being the only settlement on a whole continent (and hidden at that.)
Xian is the whole china-like culture of Weyard by itself, it trades its silk widely, so we can assume there is people buying it.
Same with other JRPGs with worldmap, FF7 has more towns than what we see in game (and we see some in spin-offs).

 

[NoOtherPersona]

With a GS remake I can't see them not trying to retcon a few things like adding civlations found in DD in this one or aleast mentioning them hopefully they ditch the silent protagonist thing for Issac and Felix it doesn't work if we know they can both talk

 

[Kalaam]

It'd be great if they could talk, maaaybe give us some choices. Nothing that would change the story just some options in dialogue.

 

[Xenigma]

In all honesty, I hope they would keep the systems more or less the same, with perhaps some QoL features like Bravely Default's random encounter rate slider. Sure, there's too much dialogue, and random encounters are too frequent, and other nit-picks we may have, but the games are known as two of the GBA's best for a reason. I'd rather them not mess too much with a good thing beyond obvious updates like modern graphics/audio.

 

[Nazyrus]

So I have a question regarding Dark Dawn. I've heard that it's considered either underwhelming or even bad compared to it's predecessors, but why is that exactly?

I enjoyed it quite fairly even after hearing the same stuff. My only nitpicks were not well enough developed new cast members really, other than that it was pretty fun overall. There was a really nice youtube review, a very objective one at that, it was shared here not so long ago, I can't find it atm tho… But yeah even if it doesn't outshine the first 2 games, it's still a good first 3D experience of GS, it's a decent game , just not a big deal when compared to the other ones.

 

[clearandsweet]

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@ 43:30

Pretty much what we heard from Naz and assumed. Pushed to early next year, but it does sound like they're speculating more than leaking.

Also just a good podcast to listen to all the way through.

 

[SPEN18]

the super smooth menu controls were one of the most underappreciated parts of the original GS
sneakily a huge advantage over other RPGs with clunky and over-complicated menu systems

 

[TempestSurge]

How about those random encounter Djinn? Those were pretty fun to track down

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

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Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

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@ 43:30

Pretty much what we heard from Naz and assumed. Pushed to early next year, but it does sound like they're speculating more than leaking.

Also just a good podcast to listen to all the way through.

By what it sounds like he has no idea what Camelot is even up to so I wouldn't take his word on it right now

 

[Nazyrus]

By what it sounds like he has no idea what Camelot is even up to so I wouldn't take his word on it right now

He also didn't know about pokemon snap, coming from a company that leaks as easy as it gets. Nate doesn't know everything and he has stated it many times. Also Camelot stuff has never leaked in the past, it's even a miracle that me and someone else has heard about it coming, lol. Besides, Golf isn't happening, my NoA source told me in December 2019 that Golf wasn't even in development, that's literally a month or so before COVID exploded in the world, and those sport games from Camelot don't take only one year to be developed, like no way in hell they do, so even in 2021 I do not see Mario Golf happening AT ALL unless someone else entirely makes that game, which I doubt as well. I don't think Nate has any source to ever figure out what Camelot is up to, no one else has to this date.

 

[N3ON]

He also didn't know about pokemon snap, coming from a company that leaks as easy as it gets. Nate doesn't know everything and he has stated it many times. Also Camelot stuff has never leaked in the past, it's even a miracle that me and someone else has heard about it coming, lol. Besides, Golf isn't happening, my NoA source told me in December 2019 that Golf wasn't even in development, that's literally a month or so before COVID exploded in the world, and those sport games from Camelot don't take only one year to be developed, like no way in hell they do, so even in 2021 I do not see Mario Golf happening AT ALL unless someone else entirely makes that game, which I doubt as well. I don't think Nate has any source to ever figure out what Camelot is up to, no one else has to this date.

Doesn't mean I disagree about Nate not knowing everything, but Aces was known about prior to reveal. That wasn't even the first time Jon had teased it, though I'm not going through his twitter to find the original, older tease.

Even if the studio itself doesn't leak, everything still has to pass through other branches as well, such as NoA.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

My bets are on Golf just being in a future Mario Sports collection right now anyway. I think things are prime for Golden Sun to be Camelot's next big thing, here's hoping

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I would say I still see Mario Golf coming but I don’t think it’s Camelot. They could easily pass that task onto someone like Vanpool, NDCube, or even Namco or Square since they worked on Sports Superstars and Mario Sports Mix respectively. It’s a shame that Camelot has been tied down to those games for as long as they have been honestly.

 

[Nazyrus]

I would say I still see Mario Golf coming but I don’t think it’s Camelot. They could easily pass that task onto someone like Vanpool, NDCube, or even Namco or Square since they worked on Sports Superstars and Mario Sports Mix respectively. It’s a shame that Camelot has been tied down to those games for as long as they have been honestly.

Probably Namco, they even help with Smash, they are just that involved with Nintendo and even Camelot.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So this is slightly awkward. I'll be honest, I'm kinda neutral on Isaac getting in Smash (never played Golden Sun), so I didn't feel right coming here to post this. I had messaged N3ON to post it here for me, since they're the thread owner, but they said I could do it myself.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's a Twitter account dedicated to obscure Nintendo characters. It's not much, of course, but I figured you guys would enjoy it.

Although while I'm here, I've noticed a bunch of people who rated Isaac on the RTC were giving him high chance scores. I don't mean to pry or anything, but is there some kind of conspiracy theory going on related to him?

 

[SharkLord]

So this is slightly awkward. I'll be honest, I'm kinda neutral on Isaac getting in Smash (never played Golden Sun), so I didn't feel right coming here to post this. I had messaged N3ON to post it here for me, since they're the thread owner, but they said I could do it myself.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's a Twitter account dedicated to obscure Nintendo characters. It's not much, of course, but I figured you guys would enjoy it.

Although while I'm here, I've noticed a bunch of people who rated Isaac on the RTC were giving him high chance scores. I don't mean to pry or anything, but is there some kind of conspiracy theory going on related to him?

There's some rumors about a new Golden Sun game, backed up by a new trademark that isn't a renewal. That, and I think he's kind of a first-party Banjo.
I also just give out fairly high ratings for everyone, though I've been trying to dial back a little lately. I'm just pretty generous with my points.

 

[FlawedAI]

Although while I'm here, I've noticed a bunch of people who rated Isaac on the RTC were giving him high chance scores. I don't mean to pry or anything, but is there some kind of conspiracy theory going on related to him?

Essentially what's been going on is Golden Sun had a trademark registered in 2018 that was brand new, very similar to the one that was filed before the most recent game in the series, Dark Dawn, was announced. This, combined with several notable insiders saying Golden Sun is happening, has given us the hope that a new Golden Sun game will be announced and released soon. Plus, Min Min has proven that upgrades are real and Spring Man wasn't disconfirmed because he was an Assist Trophy, so Isaac's chances are better than ever.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Although while I'm here, I've noticed a bunch of people who rated Isaac on the RTC were giving him high chance scores. I don't mean to pry or anything, but is there some kind of conspiracy theory going on related to him?

And, as a last point, Isaac was at a similar support level than other characters who made it, with a considered high probability alongside other long-term supported characters like K Rool, Ridley, Banjo, but also Geno or Waluigi. People seems to somewhat forget him nowadays, due to his AT status, but he is one of the only two AT that are regularly seen in polls also nowadays (with Waluigi).

 

[SharkLord]

And, as a last point, Isaac was at a similar support level than other characters who made it, with a considered high probability alongside other long-term supported characters like K Rool, Ridley, Banjo, but also Geno or Waluigi. People seems to somewhat forget him nowadays, due to his AT status, but he is one of the only two AT that are regularly seen in polls also nowadays (with Waluigi).

Yeah, ATs will do that to you. It doesn't help that Min Min gives credence both for and against ATs being back on the table. That, and everyone acts like Waluigi and Isaac are mutually exclusive because of being ATs.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah, ATs will do that to you. It doesn't help that Min Min gives credence both for and against ATs being back on the table. That, and everyone acts like Waluigi and Isaac are mutually exclusive because of being ATs.

Plus, people still act like FP2 is going to consist entirely of big-name third parties and maybe Geno just because he wouldn't be tainting the roster with more Nintendo-owned characters.

 

[SharkLord]

Plus, people still act like FP2 is going to consist entirely of big-name third parties and maybe Geno just because he wouldn't be tainting the roster with more Nintendo-owned characters.

Yeah, there's being optimistic and then they're unrealistic expectations. The only icon on the same level as past third-parties (Sans Bayonetta) was Hero, and arguably Banjo and Kazooie. We are NOT getting Geno, Master Chief, Dante, Sora, and Crash Bandicoot in the same pass, especially when we started out with Min Min.

 

[7NATOR]

Sup Isaac Brothers. While I'm not an Hardcore Isaac Supporter, I do think Isaac would be cool if he got in

I came here because i wanted to give you guys some Tinfoil Hat Theory. Also hopefully someone give this to Papagenos cause i know he loves to speculate about this type of thing

So You know how we got Small Battlefield. Well along with Smash battlefield, we also got another update, in that both Final Destination and 3 versions of Battlefield can play any music track

It simply could just be them trying to expand the Music selection, since Battlefield and Final Destination are popular stages in Competitive. however once we put on a Tinfoil hat, what this could be a is a test of some sorts and why?

Well in the instance we got a character that has Music in the "Other Category" already, most likely the music Tracks will Normally go with the Newly formed Respective Franchise Music Category, and will be taken out of the other category. This would mean stages that use the other category will actually lose music and that's no good

However with this new My Music Selection for Final Destination and Battlefield, it seems there is now a System in place for if such a scenario should incur.so if a Franchise that already has music in the Other category, perhaps the stages that use that category can use the My music selection, so not only do they don't lose music, but they actively also get more in return.

As for what this deals with Isaac, Golden Sun has a Music track (or is it 2?) in the other category. could this be put in place for when Isaac coming to FP2?

Like i said, it's tinfoil hat, so I don't think it's that serious of a theory, but since speculation is kinda dry, it's something to think about

Also: Shadow for Smash!

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I know that a public poll isn't necessarily an indication of anything but I was looking back on that huge tournament style poll they did on Reddit a few years back.

Spoiler

I keep thinking how impressive it was that Isaac held his own against Banjo & Kazooie in that last battle. There aren't many video game characters out there that could put up a fight against Banjo & Kazooie in a popularity contest. (at least among Nintendo fans) Don't get me wrong I'm sure there are characters that could beat Banjo & Kazooie....but I still think this was impressive given how beloved Banjo & Kazooie are.

Also it's funny but Waluigi was probably a glaring omission while this poll was running and it seems like even more of a glaring omission now. Although to be fair maybe Waluigi had already been revealed as an assist trophy at this point?

 

[ArkSPiTFirE]

Although to be fair maybe Waluigi had already been revealed as an assist trophy at this point?

He was yeah. Isaac also had been gaining momentum at that point, but I don't think it was quite Grinch levels yet.

I loved the Lloyd and Isaac bromance in that poll, and to me it was nice that they came ahad of Sora despite the majority of Sora voters always voting against Isaac after Sora's elimination.

 

[SharkLord]

I know that a public poll isn't necessarily an indication of anything but I was looking back on that huge tournament style poll they did on Reddit a few years back.

Spoiler

I keep thinking how impressive it was that Isaac held his own against Banjo & Kazooie in that last battle. There aren't many video game characters out there that could put up a fight against Banjo & Kazooie in a popularity contest. (at least among Nintendo fans) Don't get me wrong I'm sure there are characters that could beat Banjo & Kazooie....but I still think this was impressive given how beloved Banjo & Kazooie are.

Also it's funny but Waluigi was probably a glaring omission while this poll was running and it seems like even more of a glaring omission now. Although to be fair maybe Waluigi had already been revealed as an assist trophy at this point?

It was probably after the first major direct at E3, given the lack of Shovel Knight but Shantae still being there. Not to say the Shantae support isn't genuine, but she benefits from being the indie rep with the clearest path to Smash for a good two years. Shovel Knight is an Assist, Sans was a jokey meme pick for a while and then got a Mii, the Knight isn't iconic yet, Reimu is mainly contained to Japan, etc. A lot of Shantae's support stems from her getting lucky.

But back to the point, Isaac definitely is popular, and I'd go as far as to say that he'd be as popular as Geno-If not more so-Had he not been sent to snowglobe hell. His popularity is lowballed a lot, and a lot of it's because of the Assist, because "Min Min is just a poor man's substitute for Spring Man and wasn't chosen by her own merits at all!"

 

[FlawedAI]

It was probably after the first major direct at E3, given the lack of Shovel Knight but Shantae still being there. Not to say the Shantae support isn't genuine, but she benefits from being the indie rep with the clearest path to Smash for a good two years. Shovel Knight is an Assist, Sans was a jokey meme pick for a while and then got a Mii, the Knight isn't iconic yet, Reimu is mainly contained to Japan, etc. A lot of Shantae's support stems from her getting lucky.

But back to the point, Isaac definitely is popular, and I'd go as far as to say that he'd be as popular as Geno-If not more so-Had he not been sent to snowglobe hell. His popularity is lowballed a lot, and a lot of it's because of the Assist, because "Min Min is just a poor man's substitute for Spring Man and wasn't chosen by her own merits at all!"

Shovel Knight was revealed in August Direct with Simon/Richter/K. Rool, so it took place between then and the November 1st Massacre.

If it wasn't for Waluigi, I'd be comfortable in claiming that Isaac is the single most popular first-party character, now that K. Rool's in. Lots of people underestimate how big his support is, only further emphasized by the massive backlash to his Assist. I maintain that Isaac's Assist getting cut for no discernible reason in Smash 4 is the best thing that's ever happened to us: because we all thought Assists would disconfirm, we had free reign to vote for Isaac (at least, that was my thought process, I assume many others felt the same). Without it, there's no way Isaac gets on Sakurai's radar again, although the fanbase naturally revived itself in August 2018-November 2018 due to the likelihood of Isaac joining Smash. Isaac is the only character that got nothing but boos at Nintendo New York when his Assist was revealed (Lyn and Waluigi came close, though), he's popular not just among his own fans but most will casually support him as well.

 

[SharkLord]

Shovel Knight was revealed in August Direct with Simon/Richter/K. Rool, so it took place between then and the November 1st Massacre.

If it wasn't for Waluigi, I'd be comfortable in claiming that Isaac is the single most popular first-party character, now that K. Rool's in. Lots of people underestimate how big his support is, only further emphasized by the massive backlash to his Assist. I maintain that Isaac's Assist getting cut for no discernible reason in Smash 4 is the best thing that's ever happened to us: because we all thought Assists would disconfirm, we had free reign to vote for Isaac (at least, that was my thought process, I assume many others felt the same). Without it, there's no way Isaac gets on Sakurai's radar again, although the fanbase naturally revived itself in August 2018-November 2018 due to the likelihood of Isaac joining Smash. Isaac is the only character that got nothing but boos at Nintendo New York when his Assist was revealed (Lyn and Waluigi came close, though), he's popular not just among his own fans but most will casually support him as well.

Oh whoops, it's been a while. Thanks for the catch.

 

[Cadillac]

I hope they don't design Isaac like they did with Banjo.

 

[jweb23]

To simply spark some conversation, I was thinking about when we could get some info from Nintendo and it had me thinking about what Nintendo's schedule would have looked like if the pandemic didn't happen. For this I was looking at how dlc was handled in Fighters Pass 1 as well as how it was handled during Smash 4.

The first thing I did was look at how long it took for all the characters in FP1 to get released:
Joker: April 17th
Hero: July 30th
Banjo & Kazooie: September 4th
Terry: November 6th
Byleth: January 28th

Averaging out their release windows we end up with 71.5 days between the release of these characters, so roughly 2.5 months between them to make the math easy. Now lets assume the March mini Direct was always scheduled to happen and Min Min was always scheduled for June in this hypothetical of the pandemic not happening. If we look back to Smash 4's handling of dlc, Sakurai had a presentation before Nintendo's full e3 presentation and I believe it was likely to happen again this time as Sakurai has been doing full breakdowns of all the dlc characters. Now the question with this is would Min Min have released at the end of the presentation? I'm gonna say...YES! So that would have put Min Min's release within the first 10 days of June, and using this information we can hypothetically speculate rough estimates of the other Challenger Pack releases:

Min Min: Early June
Challenger Pack 7: Mid-Late August
Challenger Pack 8: Late November
Challenger Pack 9: Early February
Challenger Pack 10: Late April
Challenger Pack 11: Mid July

Now we look at the rumored info Nazyrus has given us and it looks like Nintendo was originally planning a November release for Golden Sun Switch. As I've stated before, I find it hard to believe Nintendo would revive a decade old IP in the middle of Smash DLC and not want to include a character from the game, so which spot is the best for Isaac or a Golden Sun character to be at?

CP7? - I would say no to this spot as it seems too early to announce Isaac/GS character nearly 3-4 months before the new game release, and of course release him more than 2 months ahead of it.

CP8? - This spot makes a lot of sense. Assuming Nintendo has their usual September Direct, they can feature Golden Sun's new game heavily and then reveal Isaac/GS character at the same time. It would be great promotion for the game and possible character.

CP9? - This spot also makes sense. From a business prospective, Nintendo knows Sony and Microsoft will be releasing their new systems in November. This has the potential to affect the sales of whatever games Nintendo plans to release at the end of the year as many gamers are saving up for those systems and might not be able to buy all the games they want at that time. So what better way to potentially cause a second surge in sales for the new Golden Sun than by announcing a new character from their game being in Smash? Sakurai's presentation would also feature scenes from the new game as it would have been out for a couple months so he wouldn't have to worry too much about possible spoilers.

CP10 & 11? - I don't think these spots make any sense for a potential GS character.

With this hypothetical of no pandemic, I would say Challenger Pack 8 and 9 are the most likely spots for Isaac or a Golden Sun character.

Now bringing things back into reality, there were insiders claiming Pikmin 3 Deluxe was originally planned for April this year, but now it is October. Of course we all know Nintendo has no issues with delaying games if they feel it's not as good as they want it to be, so it's difficult to say if the pandemic was the sole purpose for it getting a later release. So I doubt everything got pushed back to such a degree. However if some of Fighter Pass 2's characters were meant to coincide with the release of new games like we hope Isaac could potentially be...then maybe Sakurai and his team would move certain characters around if certain games got delayed. It's hard to tell as Nintendo is rarely ever open about things they haven't announced.

I'm curious to hear what you guys think. As always, hype responsibly as there is always the chance we won't get Isaac, BUT if he is scheduled I think he's Challenger Pack 8 or 9!

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I hope they don't design Isaac like they did with Banjo.

Wait why would Isaac be designed like Banjo

 

[Cadillac]

Wait why would Isaac be designed like Banjo

Banjo was hyped at first but when he came out nobody plays him.
What I meant was I hope Isaac doesn't follow that path as well.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Banjo was hyped at first but when he came out nobody plays him.
What I meant was I hope Isaac doesn't follow that path as well.

Banjo is still played quiet a lot, it's just contrarians on social media that make it look like that

 

[Cadillac]

Banjo is still played quiet a lot, it's just contrarians on social media that make it look like that

Hm, I see. Didn't know that.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

Banjo was hyped at first but when he came out nobody plays him.
What I meant was I hope Isaac doesn't follow that path as well.

It's the new toy syndrome, that happens to anyone, unless they're really good competitively.

I don't know about Isaac, but if Geno or Paper Mario get in, I can guarantee you it's going to happen.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It's the new toy syndrome, that happens to anyone, unless they're really good competitively.

I don't know about Isaac, but if Geno or Paper Mario get in, I can guarantee you it's going to happen.

Ironically, apparently Byleth is pretty popular online. Granted, I haven't played online in awhile, so I can't exactly confirm that...

 

[Nazyrus]

Banjo is still played quiet a lot, it's just contrarians on social media that make it look like that

Yep i'm one of those who still plays him a lot of the time

 

[ZelDan]

I'm someone who wasn't rooting for Banjo in Smash and was neutral on him and I actually have played him a decent bit online and find him one of the more fun DLC characters to play.